Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from SLAMT1LT:Kinda looks like Barry and Dennis are secretly texting each other:
Dennis: Hey Barry....WAKE UP!
Barry: I'm not sleeping, I'm thinking.
Dennis: What about?
Barry: Robert just asked if I wanted to invest my savings in the company.
Dennis: Oh yeah, me too.
Barry: What did you say?
Dennis: I told him to go blow it out his ass.
[quoted image]
Barry? Dennis? SAVINGS?
hahahahahahahahaha
Why do you think they were at deeproot?
Yeah the graphics aren’t my complaint with virtual pinball. Its the lag and lack of subtle nudging and other physics.
I’d be fine with PS2 era graphics if it felt like the real thing. Too much of the processing is going to eye candy and not physics.
And don’t get me wrong. I play my fair share of some virtual pinball. It has its charms. But meh compared to the real stuff.
Quoted from bwill:That looks great... but what is missing on digital pinball are physics that feel right and an accurate modeling of nudging. I used to play a lot of digital pinball and if it is all I have I still enjoy it, but it feels fake.
With better ball physics that can model spin and more of the randomness it could come closer to a real pinball machine
With great accelerometers in a cabinet to catch movement and code to model it in the simulation it could really come closer.
We aren't there yet.
His that I played last night nudged like a real machine. I was very impressed. Did a couple slide saves and tilted multiple times.
Quoted from chuckwurt:His that I played last night nudged like a real machine. I was very impressed. Did a couple slide saves and tilted multiple times.
Nice! Now I would be curious to play that.
The best part from the SEC document:
"Mueller also used more than $1.5 million of the Funds’ assets to pay hundreds of personal expenses, including his daughter’s private school tuition, vacations with his family, his second wedding, his second divorce, his third wedding, jewelry for both his second and third wives (including engagement rings and wedding bands for both wives), other lifestyle spending for and by his family, and to buy a condominium in Kauai, Hawaii. When asked by SEC counsel during investigative testimony about his use of the Funds’ assets to pay for these personal and family expenses, Mueller asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination."
Living the dream...
Quoted from benheck:Barry? Dennis? SAVINGS?
hahahahahahahahaha
Why do you think they were at deeproot?
Well in Dennis' case it was because there was barely anyone else left. Deeproot was hardly the first time his bullshit detector alarm went off.
Quoted from soapblox:The best part from the SEC document:
"Mueller also used more than $1.5 million of the Funds’ assets to pay hundreds of personal expenses, including his daughter’s private school tuition, vacations with his family, his second wedding, his second divorce, his third wedding, jewelry for both his second and third wives (including engagement rings and wedding bands for both wives), other lifestyle spending for and by his family, and to buy a condominium in Kauai, Hawaii. When asked by SEC counsel during investigative testimony about his use of the Funds’ assets to pay for these personal and family expenses, Mueller asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination."
Living the dream...
Well no shit. He pleaded the fifth.
What a surprise.
I have now played 5 physical, virtual pinball machines. Every single one of them has felt like crap. I played the ones brought to the York show in 2019, I've played the one's at Spinners, I played the upright ones and pinfest, and I've played one in a rando's basement I picked up a pin from off of craigslist.
The graphics look awesome and are getting better every day. My problem is I have yet to play one without any flipper lag.
The exception to this is that it seems to play just fine on my phone when I do the free williams tables. I don't know how or why, but the flipper buttons on virtual pinball machine builds... suck.
When I find one that works I think a virtual pin would be an awesome addition to a game collection, but so far they are a poor substitution.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:Well in Dennis' case it was because there was barely anyone else left. Deeproot was hardly the first time his bullshit detector alarm went off.
I love the guy but to paraphrase Rickey Gervais Dennis would work for the Taliban if the started a pinball company.
I want to thank everyone on this thread as it has become critical reading a few times a day. I own a few machines and have for several years, but during COVID is when I took a deep dive into the hobby and, for better or worse, spent a bunch of time digging deep into Pinside. I came across the DR threads about a year ago and have been following ever since. During the day, I am a CFO who deals with PE and VC funds. I’ve worked at startups and in buy and build strategies. To come across a narrative that combined most of what I do daily with this hobby was awesome. And to see the long-time stewards of this hobby engage in this ongoing conversation, call BS and try and steer newbies away from an enticing offer was must see/read. I’ve also watched all of Cary Hardy’s material on the subject as well and he was all over it.
To me, the most interesting aspect of this is how COVID impacted and extended the narrative. This thing would have imploded a year ago if not for PPP, and RM was exactly the type of individual that would exploit a once in a lifetime free money opportunity. He already had the org structure in place to capture multiple PPP loans, which had little to no scrutiny when they went out the door. On the flip side, COVID created what is likely an unsustainable surge in demand for pins and therefore increased/inflated pricing. If this thing was legit, you would be balls out to release these machines to capitalize on this trend before any sort regression. Supply chains have been pounded and would have been expected to impact the rollout, but they invited 6 pinball experts into an empty manufacturing facility to show off a shipping crate.
What a crazy story. It took the SEC several years to catch up to the insights that were being exposed here daily. I appreciate the community that exists in this thread and hope to contribute to it someday, positively, of course!
Quoted from benheck:I love the guy but to paraphrase Rickey Gervais Dennis would work for the Taliban if the started a pinball company.
Dennis seems to be working for every pinball company, all the time, at the same time. How is that even possible?
Title should just be either Game Over with a tag line of (Cashing in on the fear of missing out)
You have to admit FOMO drove and allowed much of this to happen with people eager to buy games that did not exist.
If this whole backstory was pitched to say Tarantino this is something he could work with. But you have to set the entire picture…back to 2013/2014…Pinball is having a resurgence. Stern is the only manufacturer. Games are becoming high in demand now for home game rooms/collectors. Prices are increasing. JJP announcement for WOZ and the preorder sales model takes hold in the industry. You have to include JPOP from the beginning, Skit B, Dutch, Heighway, Spooky etc. All the resurrections of the failed attempts of JPoP games have to be shown. All of these people have intertwining stories in the industry so that’s why I say someone like Tarantino could write the screenplay to meld all these stories as they unfolded. There is success and failure all there. Yeah it’s not hundreds of millions of dollars, sex, drugs, or black market weapons but the apparent con man behind Deep Root could make for a fascinating story on how these things happen. The end is not finished as we really don’t know all the details of the people invested and how much was ripped off. I could picture the perfect ending showing someone seeing a new post on Pinside announcing a new company and game and the guy replies “ I am in!!!” The sad thing is even after all this someone would still preorder from an upstart. Hopefully no one would but people seem to have money to burn as prices continue to rise on games.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:I have now played 5 physical, virtual pinball machines. Every single one of them has felt like crap. I played the ones brought to the York show in 2019, I've played the one's at Spinners, I played the upright ones and pinfest, and I've played one in a rando's basement I picked up a pin from off of craigslist.
The graphics look awesome and are getting better every day. My problem is I have yet to play one without any flipper lag.
The exception to this is that it seems to play just fine on my phone when I do the free williams tables. I don't know how or why, but the flipper buttons on virtual pinball machine builds... suck.
When I find one that works I think a virtual pin would be an awesome addition to a game collection, but so far they are a poor substitution.
That sounds like screen latency. You're not getting that on a small phone screen, but even milliseconds between frames on a big screen will throw your timing off. The more the latency, the less you'll be able to get used to it - not because of the inherent lag between what you press and what you see, but because it's the time equivalent of racing the beam on an old Atari game. The time between frames will be constant. The time between presses and the end of the frame update won't be.
man this thread has taken a dark turn.
i'd rather listen to people defend Mueller than defend virtual pinball.
Documentary. Short segment at the start about the rise fall and rise of Pinball. Explain to. Normies the hot sub culture of the 2010s (like the street racing subculture nobody knew about pre F&F) How this gave rise to new startups, most of which failed.
Then RM comes along and tried to resurrect one of the failed startups. And this is where our story begins.
Will never be a movie. But a doco? Will totes happen in this schedenfraude doc loving age.
Quoted from benheck:I love the guy but to paraphrase Rickey Gervais Dennis would work for the Taliban if the started a pinball company.
On the subject of bullshit alarms: when Joe 'I Made Everything In The World' Kaminkow is berating you for downplaying other people's work, you done fucking up, matey.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:On the subject of bullshit alarms: when Joe 'I Made Everything In The World' Kaminkow is berating you for downplaying other people's work, you done fucking up, matey.
What's this in reference too?
Quoted from benheck:Let's workshop a name for the inevitable documentary!
How to Not Make Pins and Alienate People
10 Things I Hate About Deeproot
Mueller (J)Poppins
The Assassination of Retirement Funds by the Coward Robert Mueller
Deeproot: Cultural Learnings of Pinball for Make Benefit Glorious Ponzi Scheme
Mueller Bobb: The Demon CEO of Cheat Street
JPop, Bob, and Two Smoking RAZA Prototypes
Quoted from chuckwurt:His that I played last night nudged like a real machine. I was very impressed. Did a couple slide saves and tilted multiple times.
Any flipper lag?
Quoted from JStoltz:Deeproot: Cultural Learnings of Pinball for Make Benefit Glorious Ponzi Scheme
Quoted from benheck:What's this in reference too?
Well the impression I get from the stories I've heard is that Joe would take credit for anything he could, like pinball's Bob Clampett.
A few pages back showed a 'how very dare you' social media post by Joe attacking Robert's (far, far more apalling) attitude and disparagement of industry figures.
Quoted from Viggin900:Oh yeah, real or digital? Look closely at the picture and zoom in. You can't tell the difference. Even has the silk screen dots on the graphics. Its actually better than this without down sizing and taking a pixel photo causing a wavy pattern.
[quoted image]
Wow you are right. That photo looks exactly like a real pinball machine. *shrug*
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:Well the impression I get from the stories I've heard is that Joe would take credit for anything he could, like pinball's Bob Clampett.
Even if thats true, theres no doubt he has accomplished a lot and I loved seeing his FB post where he absolutely buried RM
The virtual pinball I suppose is the only way to save RAZA and Jpops games.
Think Deeproot may of done better releasing Virtual Pinball games.Though I wonder if Pinball was ever truly the real focus of RM endeavor. Not even sure the Life Insurance scheme was even a worthy investment unless there was some real differentiating angle to work . Honestly I don't know what drove RM into Pinball and why he picked Jpop knowing that he'd lost his street cred.
Quoted from zaphX:Isn't it time to shut this thread down and return it to the shareholders?
Send it to Cointaker to burn it.
Quoted from zaphX:Isn't it time to shut this thread down and return it to the shareholders?
What else is there to talk about? Haven't read much tech tips or this and that here lately. Just DeepToot...
Quoted from Pickle:If this whole backstory was pitched to say Tarantino this is something he could work with. But you have to set the entire picture…back to 2013/2014…Pinball is having a resurgence. Stern is the only manufacturer. Games are becoming high in demand now for home game rooms/collectors. Prices are increasing. JJP announcement for WOZ and the preorder sales model takes hold in the industry. You have to include JPOP from the beginning, Skit B, Dutch, Heighway, Spooky etc. All the resurrections of the failed attempts of JPoP games have to be shown.
I've mentioned this before on Pinside in other threads and in different variations.
If you're going to start a documentary, this all goes back to and begins with Gene Cunningham and Big Bang Bar in 2009. That set the tone, set the bar, that set the Holy Grail of FOMO. Even today you hear people whisper, "XYZ game is gonna be the next BBB".
No other game before or snice can compare to its status. It was the right game, in the right place at the right time.
And don't forget, it was the first pre-order Pinball machine offered and the internet was filled with all kinds of drama surrounding it. In fact, modern pre-order itself was in its adolescence.
The irony to me is there will never be another Big Bang Bar. Never. That was a perfect storm in the moment and even BBB isn't what it use to be.
Quoted from Mr68:I've mentioned this before on Pinside in other threads and in different variations.
If you're going to start a documentary, this all goes back to and begins with Gene Cunningham and Big bang Bar in 2009. That set the tone, set the bar, that set the Holy Grail of FOMO. Even today you hear people whisper, "XYZ game is gonna be the next BBB".
No other game before or snice can compare to its status. It was the right game, in the right place at the right time.
And don't forget, it was the first pre-order Pinball machine offered and the internet was filled with all kinds of drama surrounding it. In fact, modern pre-order itself was in its adolescence.
The irony to me is there will never be another Big Bang Bar. Never. That was a perfect storm in the moment and even BBB isn't what it used to be.
For sure. WIthout BBB no way would people have sent $15K to Jpop in 2010.
Even *I* thought about it for about 10 minutes. I didn't want to be left behind on the next BBB!?!?
There are lots of differences of course. BBB was $5k. BBB was built with existing board sets and tons of other existing parts, the game was designed. And it was hand-built by an army of volunteers.
I would have to think BY NOW people realize another "BBB" isn't gonna happen, ever. It really is dumb luck (and a lot of hard work by people with skin in the game) that made it happen.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:For sure. WIthout BBB no way would people have sent $15K to Jpop in 2010.
Even *I* thought about it for about 10 minutes. I didn't want to be left behind on the next BBB!?!?
There are lots of differences of course. BBB was $5k. BBB was built with existing board sets and tons of other existing parts, the game was designed. And it was hand-built by an army of volunteers.
I would have to think BY NOW people realize another "BBB" isn't gonna happen, ever. It really is dumb luck (and a lot of hard work by people with skin in the game) that made it happen.
Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
Quoted from parsonsaj:FROM: Mueller, Robert (Principal, deeproot technologies)
TO: deeproot pinball technical staff
All-
Please plan to gather in the break room today to celebrate our achievements and reflect on what is yet to come, as we have the celebratory first power on of the industry-leading and vastly innovative RAZA pinball machine that you have all been working so hard on for the past few months. We have all contributed to this amazing accomplishment and now it's time to revel in the glory of this game that is going to change the pinball world.
Attendance at this meeting is mandatory, as we want to have all hands on deck for the film crew that I've asked to attend to capture this glorious moment for future generations to see. All deeproot days are suspended for this day only, to allow you to place your full focus on being here and helping to celebrate. I've decided to have a complimentary Tex-Mex buffet catered to the site, so no need to plan for lunch.
While you've all helped in this amazing effort, we would not be at this point without the one who made it all possible, jpop! For this reason, we will be allowing him the honor of throwing the ceremonial switch on this game as it powers up for the first time.
I thank you again for your great work, and I look forward to literally setting the pinball world on fire with our amazing new creation.
Best,
RM
So you're telling me there's a video of this event/incident? 
Quoted from Mr68:Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
Yeah I remember.
Why do you think I felt left out?!?!
I considered it, but $4500 was about half my life savings at the time, and I REALLY doubted they were going to pull it off. People who got their BBBs deserved every cent of the spoils!
Quoted from Jvspin:Any flipper lag?
Some games were bad but others it was not bad at all. Some I couldn’t tell at all.
Just depended on what game we played.
Quoted from Mr68:Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
That’s right when I got into the hobby, and I wanted a BBB but didn’t wanna pay $10k. I got berated by many “you should have ordered when you could!” …sorry, I didn’t know pinball existed yet lol. I put it out there that I’d pay $8k for one, and if I sold it, I’d sell it back to the original person for the same price. No one took me up on it. 
My patience will pay off when I open up my CGC BBBrr 
Quoted from frolic:At first I was glad that the press coverage wasn't covering pinball, because do we want to be attached to this story, but now I realize there is no way this isn't going to blow up, big time. Bring on the Netflix docuseries.
Finally Iceman's biggest dream fulfilled.
He never made it onto Kanedas podcast but now he will be on Netflix 
We are getting very close to hitting a milestone in this thread.
The other massive JPop/Zidware thread currently has 24,346 posts.
This thread has 24,237 posts.
At the rate this thread is going, it will surpass the other dumpster fire later today.
Nearly 50k posts about JPop and Robert Mueller. Yeah, there's gotta be some good material for a movie, right? 
Quoted from Mr68:Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
Don't forget all the little details. Half up front, half when delivered. That changed about one year in. Money was going to be escrowed and never was. Four different groups involved, all kinds of mud slinging back and forth between them and Gene. Kerry Stair came into build a few and didn't realize he was expected to build most of them. Most shipped or were picked up the same day because Gene was expecting to get served papers from Capcom or Williams stopping the project.
They had disassembled one of the originals. And almost daily emailed me for information or pictures of what was lost/missing or where something went.
Gene did get them built. Did a good job. And lost a lot of money. But it was scary. People would ask me if they should order one at the beginning or not. I'd tell them to make up their own mind. With what I all knew I didn't have any money on one. I would imagine the people that listened to me and found out 5 years later they could have doubled their money still hate me. I remember one man told me if he put in $5K and didn't get a game, he'd likely never be able to buy another pin. I told him in his shoes I wouldn't do it.
Time goes by. People forget the details. And got to thinking that anybody who announces that they will make pinball machines, that it would really happen. So those that came later and announced they'd make pinball machines. Had a ready made audience to throw money at them.
Very few of them are like Jack or Charlie, who sacrificed and worked their butts off to make it happen.
LTG : )
Disclaimer : For all my help I was told if I ever needed parts or anything to just ask. When the games were finished I asked for some of the wire things that pulled the rear gates open. I was told no.
Does anybody remember when Wayne's MM and CC remakes were announced?
It was after the BBBs started rolling out the door, right?
That one kind of gets forgotten, probably because (as far as I know) Wayne never stole anybody's money. I do remember a few years hearing about some lunatic who still hadn't asked for a refund because he thought they were happening.
I believe he DID take money, but refunded it when it was clear the project was as dead as Croc Hunter (both the game and the person). It did have some of the hallmarks of our favorite scams...a splashy launch with some nice graphics...optimistic timelines...pictures of "parts in bins" as the best evidence things were getting made...no evidence of an actual pinball factory...but it didn't last very long and was put to bed pretty quickly.
Quoted from RobT:Nearly 50k posts about JPop and Robert Mueller. Yeah, there's gotta be some good material for a movie, right?
This is becoming The War And Peace of pinball.
All this history around all these scams and titles reminds me of why I try to go to Chicago Expo every year... that is one place where dirty laundry gets aired out regularly... all of these scams have that kind of in common... they all have that one Expo where its full steam ahead, watch out for the bad acid, and make sure you use a condom because you never know where or who has been with whom or what...
Just watched the RAZA video for the first time with Robert going over the features. I kind of like it. Any chance they'll open up preorders again?
Quoted from shlt_thunder:Just watched the RAZA video for the first time with Robert going over the features. I kind of like it. Any chance they'll open up preorders again?
Dude, you be crazy, a truly suitable case for treatment at this point...
I dunno. It's got that long LCD screen and the pinbar are both pretty interesting and novel ideas. I like the way the glass and playfield raise up. I think I want one. The theme sounds like it is from the dollar store, but besides that, I really like it. Hope I'm not too late.
Quoted from benheck:Barry? Dennis? SAVINGS?
hahahahahahahahaha
Why do you think they were at deeproot?
Barry received over $33,000 a few years ago through Go Fund Me when he and his wife were ill. I imagine he needed the money.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Barry received over $33,000 a few years ago through Go Fund Me when he and his wife were ill. I imagine he needed the money.
https://uk.gofundme.com/f/6fgkt0
no no no he was there because of his firm belief that Deep Root was going to be a huge success!!
Same reason everybody else was there.
Quoted from benheck:Ben Heck's BIBLE FUCKING ADVENTURES!
Since it will have a Octo LCD, scenes can be shot at the defunct Biblical Gardens in the Dells.
Also, if any of the Wisconsin Ducks are out of service, perhaps Andrew can lend his hydrofoil for the water scenes and Jpop can lend his Range Rover for land scenes....
Quoted from benheck:Ben Heck's BIBLE FUCKING ADVENTURES!
Honest question (not yanking your chain): Why don't you design/build one and contract it out or sell the rights?
Quoted from mbwalker:Honest question (not yanking your chain): Why don't you design/build one and contract it out or sell the rights?
I was going to do that after I rage quite Spooky 3 years ago. Then at almost the same time Blobert announces he is making it.
Was very sad. Because I knew Blobert is the kind of slime who would sue me for doing the same public domain theme as him. And also because he'd completely fuck up the concept.
But now? Maybe I should.
The six stages of FOMO
Stage One:
Unknown company announces new pinball title... no other information available. Ears prick up, eyebrows are raised. Slight twinge in right arm to reach for wallet, but no actual movement detected. Texts message to distributor to put him on waiting list.
Stage Two:
Company shows up at a major pin show with artwork, mockups and gives a great seminar presentation, hands out key fobs to all who walk by booth. Heart rate climbs suddenly, room temperature suddenly seems oppressive, speed dials his distributor, Right arm sprained removing wallet from rear pocket to give credit card info to reserve a spot on list.
Stage Three:
Company opens up pre-order window, limited number of CE machines announced, delivery dates promised. Distributor calls with bad news, CE's sold out LE's sold out, might be able to get a standard but expect to pay above market value. Posts ad on Pinside for CE, offers double MSRP, calls bank and starts loan process to take equity loan on home. Lender calls home, wife finds out, divorce lawyer leaves angry voicemail.
Stage Four:
Purchases pre-order spot off ebay for $15000 above MSRP, pays with cashiers check sent to Nigerian prince. Company announces supply shortages and legal issues are preventing them from delivering on time, delivery schedules slip, Company goes radio silent. Pinball media speculates some sort of scam. Check is cashed by meth head in Detroit, sends 90% to his handler, uses rest for weekend binge.
Stage Five:
Pinside sleuths uncover massive fraud and scandal, company thread explodes, drama, drama, drama... Sherif shows up and serves divorce papers, Google search turns up Nigerian prince scam and likelihood money is gone. In fit of total despair, reads entire company thread on pinside in 30 minutes, sees post from pinsider claiming everything is going to work out, just wait and see. Speed dials distributor, says put him down for two.
Stage Six:
Company is a complete bust, owner is sued and litigated into the next decade. Netflix develops docudrama covering entire industry. Unknown company announces they have purchased the rights to build the original titles of defunct company. Loses half of his net worth in nastily contested divorce, home sold at auction and proceeds used to pay off lawyers and ex-wife. Sees announcement on pinside, calls local plasma center and asks how many times and how much can be made selling his plasma. Lists cell number on OnlyFans and starts street walking to pay for his pinball habit. Hitchhikes to distributor and makes an indecent proposition if he would just let him smell the cardboard box when the first one comes in.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/485?hl=pinlink and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Madison, WI
Merthyr Tydfil