(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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There are 33,432 posts in this topic. You are on page 476 of 669.
#23751 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Renting to one's self? Sounds like an excellent way to "disappear" money.... :0

I work in commercial property management and leasing (albeit in Australia) and this sort of thing is actually pretty commonplace. Most businesses use this structure to keep the legal and financial risks quite separate. If the lease is registered on the land title, then it also provides the flexibility to sell the land and building with the lease in place.

#23752 2 years ago

Seriously, the best part of today was hearing Ben Heck do his jpop impersonation.
I would seriously pay money to hear more of that.

11
#23753 2 years ago

Hey all, see my post a few back. Robert doesn't own the building. That tax document is for the like $150k in upgrades he made to the property, not the property itself.

That said, look one post after, and you'll see that it appears Robert was fined $1.4m by Utah for workplace violations. And in a couple minutes, I'll have another new money related thing to share...

#23754 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Hey all, see my post a few back. Robert doesn't own the building. That tax document is for the like $150k in upgrades he made to the property, not the property itself.
That said, look one post after, and you'll see that it appears Robert was fined $1.4m by Utah for workplace violations. And in a couple minutes, I'll have another new money related thing to share...

......your deeproot treasure finding is keeping this thread going - thanks

#23755 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

Hi Ben,
I remember you saying something to remember effect of "when this goes bust I will explain what I think the real intentions were behind why JPop offered to build the pinball machines in people's
Homes"
Stu

Ugh. Sigh.

Oh wait. Pinside saves this all? Argh. Fine. Looking back at it as a whole, trying to understand his "logic"... grooming could have been a possible reason.

Again, just a theory. He certainly didn't want my help with any of the things I'm good at.

14
#23756 2 years ago

So I have to admit I was wrong about something: I told you all that Robert's companies have received four ppp loans (one each for deeproot tech and deeproot studios in 2020 and 2021). That was incorrect, and I apologize.

It turns out Robert's companies apparently received at least six ppp loans, because guess who else got in on the government gravy train?

https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/search?q=policy+services+inc

Screen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.31.41 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.31.41 PM (resized).png

And yes, it should come as no surprise that just like the other two 2020 loans, Policy Services, Inc has already had its first one forgiven.

And also like some of the other loans, FederalPay.org suggests from raw data that employee reductions were likely:

https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/policy-services-inc-san-antonio-tx

Screen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.33.06 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.33.06 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.34.41 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.34.41 PM (resized).png

Remember, the primary use of these funds is to pay salary so employees won't be laid off or furloughed.

Another thought: I wonder who these 4 or 5 employees of Policy Services, Inc. are who aren't also employees of Deeproot Tech or Deeproot Studios? They certainly haven't turned up in any of my LinkedIn searches.

#23757 2 years ago

Deeproot confirmed on the Department of Labor stuff. 88 violations in 2019.

Screen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.44.37 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.44.37 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.44.52 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-23 at 5.44.52 PM (resized).png

Someone who knows anything about this stuff want to look through the export and tell us if it indicates they paid up the $1.4m penalty?

Here's a link where you can download the file: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/Enfdata/search.php?agency[0]=WHD&type[0]=Cases&case_id=1881920

#23758 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Deeproot confirmed on the Department of Labor stuff. 88 violations in 2019.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Someone who knows anything about this stuff want to look through the export and tell us if it indicates they paid up the $1.4m penalty?
Here's a link where you can download the file: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/Enfdata/search.php?agency[0]=WHD&type[0]=Cases&case_id=1881920

The export is just the same data that is in the table.

#23759 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

......your deeproot treasure finding is keeping this thread going - thanks

Blueberries in the morning with blueberryjohnson

#23760 2 years ago

There is another file that can be found here: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/views/search.php when doing "Search by Company Name" and deeproot. I can't format it right, but it appears to be the "BW ATP" which is "back wages agreed to pay".

$1.4M for 88 employees for 4/1/2019 to 7/5/2019 (95 days or 13 weeks/4days). Let's call it 14 weeks. That works out to ~$100,000/week or ~$5.2M/year in wages if you have 88 employees.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#23761 2 years ago
Quoted from Inside:

There is another file that can be found here: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/views/search.php when doing "Search by Company Name" and deeproot. I can't format it right, but it appears to be the "BW ATP" which is "back wages agreed to pay".
$1.4M for 88 employees for 4/1/2019 to 7/5/2019 (95 days or 13 weeks/4days). Let's call it 14 weeks. That works out to ~$100,000/week or ~$5.2M/year in wages if you have 88 employees.
[quoted image]

This is the stuff I was talking about. Wasn't sure about that acronym or some others - your guess makes sense - the precise number is $1,402,460.22. Are we sure the formula is 1 violation = 1 employee? Could be multiple violations for a subset of employees (or all of them, if fewer than the 67 they claimed when setting up shop) during that period.

#23762 2 years ago

So Blobert didn't pay 88 people's salaries for 3 months? WOW.

Also 88 people... As I mention on Chris's show deeproot Studios could have been an even bigger money sink than the pinball.

88 people is about halfway to a AAA game studio team size. That's.... pretty insane.

#23763 2 years ago

88 people and no projects completed? And you’re not even introducing the complexity of building up a manufacturing facility.

#23764 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

So Blobert didn't pay 88 people's salaries for 3 months? WOW.

Could be things line overtime etc that muddy that simple napkin math.

#23765 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Ugh. Sigh.
Oh wait. Pinside saves this all? Argh. Fine. Looking back at it as a whole, trying to understand his "logic"... grooming could have been a possible reason.
Again, just a theory. He certainly didn't want my help with any of the things I'm good at.

Me thinks he's autistic...or something. That's kind of why I got triggered when you said dumpster diving will be his future. I don't think he's a bad guy or deluded in the same way as Robert. Just not inclined to adapt. So, yeah, not chameleonlike in the way Python Anghelo described him.

#23766 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

88 people and no projects completed? And you’re not even introducing the complexity of building up a manufacturing facility.

The financial & management decisions (delusions) of RM are pretty shocking to me. It's like in his head he said:

* the investors won't mind if I invest in vanity & creative projects like animation and pinball - I will make the money back and the investors will be happy at the end of the day.

* I work hard, I deserve a new condo. The investors will understand when they receive great returns.

* I studied hard and became the speciality of a litigator lawyer, therefore I must be good at other specialities, such as: marketing, design, supply chain & logistics, investment, funds management, corporate governance, property management, distribution, product development & film studio/production.

* If I brute force enough resources into a project, then it is guaranteed to be successful, because I am passionate about the subject matter.

* I won't get caught

#23767 2 years ago
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

Robert must've worked hard in little old lady land to get all that investment money.[quoted image]

Ewwwwwwww.

#23768 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

So Blobert didn't pay 88 people's salaries for 3 months? WOW.
Also 88 people... As I mention on Chris's show deeproot Studios could have been an even bigger money sink than the pinball.
88 people is about halfway to a AAA game studio team size. That's.... pretty insane.

$58m is also about halfway to a triple-A MMO. Which is why nobody makes 'proper' old-school MMOs with complete worlds, characters, content or intricate player interaction potential anymore when there's an investment that needs making back quickly and then paying dividends forever through grind-timesavers and loot boxes. That's probably not unlike how Robert thought of the overseeing of his companies in relation to himself.

#23769 2 years ago

What the hell is THAT thing? It's a soapbox derbymobile!

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#23770 2 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

The Andrew Heighway send-off was anticlimactic, this one promises to make up for it.

And to think, if we'd waited barely a *week* or so more for pressure to be put on him to be paid off to go on his merry way, it would have been a lot LESS anticlimatic.

#23771 2 years ago

Why didn't he just classify deeproot pinball as a development stage company and fund it as such...nogginmeister.

#23772 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

Me thinks he's autistic...or something. That's kind of why I got triggered when you said dumpster diving will be his future. I don't think he's a bad guy or deluded in the same way as Robert. Just not inclined to adapt. So, yeah, not chameleonlike in the way Python Anghelo described him.

He seems to tick all the ASD boxes - the classic one being endlessly starting projects but never finishing them - and many that I see in myself.

#23773 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

Me thinks he's autistic...or something. That's kind of why I got triggered when you said dumpster diving will be his future. I don't think he's a bad guy or deluded in the same way as Robert. Just not inclined to adapt. So, yeah, not chameleonlike in the way Python Anghelo described him.

Python called a Spade a Spade.....

#23774 2 years ago

Aaah so that means i lost my money…no RAZA…i’m sad.
Sad day today,it is sad for 10 years now…
I think i am gonna take this down today,this is probably never gonna happen

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
#23775 2 years ago

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
#23776 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]

Send me $75, then I'll send you my address that you can mail it to.

#23777 2 years ago

Oh dear... listening to Ben regale about Robert's infatuation with John, I'd say 'get a room' but they went and actually did. A fucking great empty one.

#23778 2 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

Seriously, the best part of today was hearing Ben Heck do his jpop impersonation.
I would seriously pay money to hear more of that.

I LOST IT at that. "'Ooooh Bally Willams days pinball college' and fuck that."

#23779 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

[quoted image]

Cue mock up of the prison pod?

35
#23780 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]

I love how he signed someone else's artwork like it was his.

Shows everyone who he really is.

#23781 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

So I have to admit I was wrong about something: I told you all that Robert's companies have received four ppp loans (one each for deeproot tech and deeproot studios in 2020 and 2021). That was incorrect, and I apologize.
It turns out Robert's companies apparently received at least six ppp loans, because guess who else got in on the government gravy train?
https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/search?q=policy+services+inc
[quoted image]
And yes, it should come as no surprise that just like the other two 2020 loans, Policy Services, Inc has already had its first one forgiven.
And also like some of the other loans, FederalPay.org suggests from raw data that employee reductions were likely:
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/policy-services-inc-san-antonio-tx
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Remember, the primary use of these funds is to pay salary so employees won't be laid off or furloughed.
Another thought: I wonder who these 4 or 5 employees of Policy Services, Inc. are who aren't also employees of Deeproot Tech or Deeproot Studios? They certainly haven't turned up in any of my LinkedIn searches.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the 4 or 5 employees are Robert, his family, and maybe his buddy lawyer. Im just now thinking of all of it in Arrested Development terms

I wonder what their version of the stair car is. No way Robert wasn’t buying some company cars.

#23782 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Oh also (forgot this in Kaneda interview) Robert's original plan was to hire John, make his 3 games and leave the ZW customers high and dry because "this is a separate company we have no obligations to them"
One of a million fed flags that caused us to say NO but at least he changed his mind on that one. Making John the most expensive pinball designer on the planet.... Brilliant!

I remember Jack telling me Robert was trying to Buy or invest in JJP before Leonard came along

#23783 2 years ago

How much have pre-orders put down? The full amount?

#23784 2 years ago

I remember when the "pinball is easy" and "quad-assembly" phrases were coined by Robber Robbie, very early on, he argumented by previous experience in "manufacturing something a lot more complicated than pinball machines". As I recall it.

Now I am asking myself. What on earth was that? Was this brag rooted in anything? Was it ever checked by someone?

#23785 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Wouldn’t be surprised if the 4 or 5 employees are Robert, his family, and maybe his buddy lawyer. Im just now thinking of all of it in Arrested Development terms
I wonder what their version of the stair car is. No way Robert wasn’t buying some company cars.

He probably bought a mercedes, but he didn't let anyone eat ice cream inside
https://arresteddevelopment.fandom.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W126_S-Class

#23786 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

He probably bought a mercedes, but he didn't let anyone eat ice cream inside
https://arresteddevelopment.fandom.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W126_S-Class

More like this if you want my opinion.

#23787 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

I remember Jack telling me Robert was trying to Buy or invest in JJP before Leonard came along

Can you imagine the level of ruin that would have occurred if he managed to acquire a functioning pinball company?

#23788 2 years ago

Really fascinating reading this thread. Went back just a year when discussion of the $750k/month burn rate was discussed around post 6604. The warning signs were there, but many refused to accept them. Hindsight of course is 20/20, but still, the math never really added up to me. Seems discussion of parts delays was just a red herring. What a terrible situation for just about everyone involved, hope people can recover some of their funds.

10
#23789 2 years ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

I am rooting for deeproot, but those numbers are scary. If they make 50 machines per week (JJP numbers), and make $2000 per machine, if they are paying 6% to their initial investors it would take them almost 20 years to break even.
Let's say Deeproot is invested in this all at $30,000,000. How much "profit" do they need to make on a machine? Let's say for the purpose of math (and making it easier to alter later) it is $1,000. That means that in order for Deeproot to break even, they would need to make ($30,000,000/$1,000) 30,000 machines just to break even. Let's step that up further and say that they reach the rumored manufacturing capacity of Jersey Jack Pinball of 50 machines per week. This would imply that (30,000/50) 600 weeks or 11.5 years were needed just to break even. If you want to say they make $2,000 per machine that makes 5.75 years or $3,000 per machine makes almost 4 years just to break even. But wait! Deeproot must be paying their investors some sort of rate of return. 11.5 years at $1,000 per machine and Deeproot promised... say a 6% return on investment once production started, then they would owe investors almost $60 million after 11.5 years, not $30 million. In fact, if you include interest of 6% on Deeptroot initial startup money at $30,000,000, produce at the rate of Jersey Jack (50 per week), Deeproot would never be able to eliminate its startup debt. At $2,000 markup per machine it would take them ALMOST 20 YEARS to eliminate startup debt.
Please note I have no insider knowledge of Deeproot and am pulling the numbers for debt repayment based off of online calculators. My math may or may not be right but from my purely mathematical analysis I do not see this company making it long term. With that said I am rooting for them.

I would like to remind everyone that the math on this was never going to work... unless they were making $2,000 per machine... and selling 50 machines per week... for 20 years (per my back of the envelop math).

#23790 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]

I'll chip in $10 if you take and post a video setting fire to it...

#23791 2 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Really fascinating reading this thread. Went back just a year when discussion of the $750k/month burn rate was discussed around post 6604. The warning signs were there, but many refused to accept them. Hindsight of course is 20/20, but still, the math never really added up to me. Seems discussion of parts delays was just a red herring. What a terrible situation for just about everyone involved, hope people can recover some of their funds.

Strange thing to me was that they didn't take any money from customers until late last year. Before that, they were offering refunds for those ripped off by Zidware. They hired a lot of reputable talent and had working prototype games. I was there at the show and they had a whole bunch of people there servicing the game. This wasn't like one guy promising to build hundreds of games in his basement. It was obvious the whole thing was mismanaged but seems like they could of at least built a few games with all those people involved.

-12
#23792 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Deeproot confirmed on the Department of Labor stuff. 88 violations in 2019.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Someone who knows anything about this stuff want to look through the export and tell us if it indicates they paid up the $1.4m penalty?
Here's a link where you can download the file: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/Enfdata/search.php?agency[0]=WHD&type[0]=Cases&case_id=1881920

I am honestly shocked that the Dept. of Labor down in Texas is this vigillant.

I mean, it's Texas.

Can you imagine how toxic and horrible that workplace is if they managed to get busted for 88 labor violations in Texas?!

#23793 2 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

Can you imagine the level of ruin that would have occurred if he managed to acquire a functioning pinball company?

Wasn't there also some level of attempted engagement with Multimorphic? I think that got shut down fast

#23794 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I am honestly shocked that the Dept. of Labor down in Texas is this vigillant.
I mean, it's Texas.
Can you imagine how toxic and horrible that workplace is if they managed to get busted for 88 labor violations in Texas?!

Don't be. It's the DoL for Utah.

#23795 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

I remember Jack telling me Robert was trying to Buy or invest in JJP before Leonard came along

Wow, that just set my imagination a spinning. Sounds like a lot of people dodged the same bullet.

#23796 2 years ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

I would like to remind everyone that the math on this was never going to work... unless they were making $2,000 per machine... and selling 50 machines per week... for 20 years (per my back of the envelop math).

There was the subscription/DLC delusion that could have infused a little bit more cash, but not enough to save the pinball money pit.
The Studios on the other hand could have been profitable with a successful video game. You can sell on Steam/App Store and never worry about manufacturing.

#23797 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Don't be. It's the DoL for Utah.

See that's why you get paid the big bucks!

#23798 2 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

There was the subscription/DLC delusion that could have infused a little bit more cash, but not enough to save the pinball money pit.
The Studios on the other hand could have been profitable with a successful video game. You can sell on Steam/App Store and never worry about manufacturing.

That's why I kept thinking they'd make a video game a few years ago. All those video game people, a focus on nice graphics, the bold claim to ship more games in a year than anyone else, not having a factory setup, etc...

31
#23799 2 years ago

Robert also wanted to buy Pinball Life.

Industry is MUCH better off without this scumbag loon anywhere near it.

50
#23800 2 years ago

WOW I am so Lucky!!! I felt very uneasy about three weeks ago when I had called for about two weeks and no answer. I sent many emails and got no responce, so I called my credit card company and had my deposit charged back. I verified this am with the card company and they said I am good and wont lose a dime. Thank God I did that and used a card instead of wire transfer. I hope Robert spends alot of time in jail, he is not a good dude for sure.

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