Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from greatwichjohn:We will see if no assets of Deeproot are bought. I predict a very slim chance of that. Even a poor man would take a gamble of hitting Gold! Even REAL Pinball companies just to shelve anything that might be there might take a gamble. You guys seem to know everything, time will tell.
You mean the assets developed using scams and ripping people off? I’m sure legitimate companies that care about their customers will be lining up to acquire them… it makes total sense! 
Quoted from greatwichjohn:We will see if no assets of Deeproot are bought. I predict a very slim chance of that. Even a poor man would take a gamble of hitting Gold! Even REAL Pinball companies just to shelve anything that might be there might take a gamble. You guys seem to know everything, time will tell.
There’s a very good chance that Deeproot never had MG or RAZA license to begin with since Jpop sold them to Bill. That however is up to a court case to figure out.
But they do have the gold mine of Food Truck available to ruin someone else’s life too.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Just because Deeproot seems to be done for the final count as a pinball company. It does not mean any of these JPOP games or other titles done there will not see the light of day in the future. We will have to see who buys what is left & what they want to do with the assets. Could be they do nothing, could produce under license if allowed, or could just retheme stuff.
Pinball production is NOT EASY, but it is not impossible. Almost all real pinball manufacturers contract out parts production, & just do final builds. The other part is design & code usually done in house. But even that can be contracted out.
It is a free world towards speech but there are some (many) vocal people thinking they know it all here. See what more abuse I get here again. Even a small dedicated group with proper management, skilled staff, & resources can get games built. If you are a dreamer or have no game plan you are likely to fail.
Everyone has high hopes for Spooky, Haggis, P3, Dutch Pinball, Heighway, & even Homepin to advance in this tough pinball market with the big players. But time will tell in the future who continues on, & who might come to a end.
Quoted from djsolzs:What is wrong with people
[quoted image]
One retiree who has benefitted from other retirees
Quoted from djsolzs:What is wrong with people
[quoted image]
Barry has a history of believing in & spreading disinformation, and generally being on the wrong side of modern history. Not a shocker that he’s a DR cultist & immune to facts.
Yes likely Deeproot did not have proper authority to use Zidware & JPOP stuff. But all the stuff that changed from that time might be available. Along with all the stuff towards other pinball titles in the planning stage.
If you do not get my meaning of slim chance, it means likely I think everything for sale will be bought by someone. If you think no one is going to step up & offer pennies towards millions spent on stuff. Wait & see. I have no problem if I am wrong, will you.
I do not do drugs, but I do drink beer!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Yes likely Deeproot did not have proper authority to use Zidware & JPOP stuff. But all the stuff that changed from that time might be available. Along with all the stuff towards other pinball titles in the planning stage.
If you do not get my meaning of slim chance, it means likely I think everything for sale will be bought by someone. If you think no one is going to step up & offer pennies towards millions spent on stuff. Wait & see. I have no problem if I am wrong, will you.
I do not do drugs, but I do drink beer!
The guy who does own the RAZA and magic girl ip said
he won't let anyone use it to make these games. He's on this thread. You can ask him yourself.
Quoted from Mr68:Well, eventually Robert will need to put together a parole plan.
Is this the part where RM hides the blueprint to all the other forthcoming DR machines in a buried box somewhere under a tree in the middle of a field ala Shawshank Redemption ?
Bill can chime in his intentions or wait to see what happens. No different than Heighway & Dutch Pinball revival. Even Stern & JJP almost went under. Pinball is HARD!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Bill can chime in his intentions or wait to see what happens. No different than Heighway & Dutch Pinball revival. Even Stern & JJP almost went under. Pinball is HARD!
It’s especially hard when it is funded through a criminal enterprise and guided by gross incompetence
Except you will likely never see Deeproot Pinball 2.0
Not with the history, which will continue to play out maybe for years.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Bill can chime in his intentions or wait to see what happens. No different than Heighway & Dutch Pinball revival. Even Stern & JJP almost went under. Pinball is HARD!
He already has
Quoted from greatwichjohn:If you do not get my meaning of slim chance, it means likely I think everything for sale will be bought by someone. If you think no one is going to step up & offer pennies towards millions spent on stuff. Wait & see. I have no problem if I am wrong, will you.
I do not do drugs, but I do drink beer!
Are you talking Andrew McBain - Pinball Adventures? He'd be stupid enough...
PS- Anyone saying they don't do drugs... does drugs 
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Bill can chime in his intentions or wait to see what happens. No different than Heighway & Dutch Pinball revival. Even Stern & JJP almost went under. Pinball is HARD!
Yes, Stern was saved by angel investors. But they had a 20+ history of making... wait for it... ACTUAL PINBALL MACHINES as well as a working factory, supply chain, full staff, distribution channels & great active license agreements with Marvel and Disney. THEY WERE WORTH SAVING... and the angels made BANK.
DP rolled up their sleeves, took their lumps and are slaving away to make people whole.
Heighway made more games that DR ever will, bad management, ran out of money but they at least TRIED - and Alien is a pretty cool game!
JJP needed investment to "catch up" on the hole WOZ put them in - but they're making great games with themes people love, and putting a lot of value into them.
Oh and also none of those companies were funded by stealing from little old ladies.
I do not do drugs, everyone knows I drink beer. Anyone in the pinball business are likely to pick stuff up cheap. The groups I am working with likely have no interest, & have their own plans. Maybe the animation stuff might be of interest to others.
What I really do not understand in any of this is how the hell does any company burn thru this much money and produce nothing ? The $1.6M payout and $1.5M in personal expenditures aside, where the hell did the rest of the money go ? How much did DR Pinball and DR Studios really siphon off ? What tangible assets did they produce ?
It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done. JPOP aside I can’t imagine that all the others just sat on their hands and did nothing. And yet they produced seemingly nothing at all. This will be an amazing case study in failure when all comes out.
Yes lots of different people have lost money with all of Roberts chain of companies. I feel real sorry for previous Zidware & the latest Raza buyers here. It takes skill to blow through all that money & produce 2 Raza prototypes. I only came into the Deeproot saga the last number of months since it seemed like building real games there seemed next to impossible. Like I have said a small group could of built all 100 the last 8 months with money & dedication.
History was shown this by Big Bang Bar builds, & all the other small real pinball manufacturers.
Maybe look a little way back where I said Robert needs to get things done, or he may end up on American Greed episode. Guess that maybe a reality down the road when the cases are finally closed on Deeproot.
Quoted from pookycade:What I really do not understand in any of this is how the hell does any company burn thru this much money and produce nothing ? The $1.6M payout and $1.5M in personal expenditures aside, where the hell did the rest of the money go ? How much did DR Pinball and DR Studios really siphon off ? What tangible assets did they produce ?
It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done. JPOP aside I can’t imagine that all the others just sat on their hands and did nothing. And yet they produced seemingly nothing at all. This will be an amazing case study in failure when all comes out.
I’m sure he stole far more than is accounted for at this moment. Also, not Sure if you’ve heard the rumors, but some think this wasn’t a very efficiently run enterprise.
Quoted from pookycade:It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done.
Bingo.
Here’s how Stern operated during their “lean years”…and even then were still releasing 3-4 games a year.
1 in house designer (Borg) vs. 4 at DR
1 in house coder (Lonnie), Lyman on freelance vs. Bowden writing tomes & who knows programming
Thiel freelance per project vs. full time at DR
1 or 2 dots animators vs. what was it like 40 high quality videogame animators?
Working factory to turn the work into product vs. no factory.
Just as Jpop’s 13 MG for $16k each made no sense financially, what Robert did made no sense either.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:I do not do drugs, everyone knows I drink beer. Anyone in the pinball business are likely to pick stuff up cheap. The groups I am working with likely have no interest, & have their own plans. Maybe the animation stuff might be of interest to others.
NO THEY WON’T !
1. Toxic assets to pick up.
2. Countless dollars to fight lawsuits to defend.
3. Added dollars (throwing good money after bad) to put this morass together into any tangible actually working product.
4. Terrible financial and PR cost of any goodwill to make everyone who got scammed whole.
5. Lengthy delay to work out any lawsuits before there is any freedom to operate whatsoever (if that is even possible).
This is not pennies on the dollar assets that one gets free and clear. This is toxic assets that someone would have to actually be paid to take off someone’s hands (the SEC or whomever is determined to own any of it).
Look you seem like a nice guy, but continue on this deluded adventure that seems to demonstrate not even a small modicum of knowledge of business whatsoever.
Just stop. Nobody is buying whatever you are trying to sell here.
Rarehero what do you think the median income for a game studio CGI animator in Salt Lake City would be? Times 40, add 20% for SS, UEI, MC, insurance and that's their yearly burn for salary alone?
I'm guessing 80k so a 4m/year burn MINIMUM? I ask because I think the "studios" was a HUGE % of the spend. Maybe as much or more than pinball.
Addendum: Robert does (did) offer very competitive salaries and benefits. I know because he tried to hire me too.
One more edit: Robert stealing 3m is peanuts compared to what he probably spent on salaries when fully staffed.
Quoted from pookycade:What I really do not understand in any of this is how the hell does any company burn thru this much money and produce nothing ? The $1.6M payout and $1.5M in personal expenditures aside, where the hell did the rest of the money go ? How much did DR Pinball and DR Studios really siphon off ? What tangible assets did they produce ?
It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done. JPOP aside I can’t imagine that all the others just sat on their hands and did nothing. And yet they produced seemingly nothing at all. This will be an amazing case study in failure when all comes out.
I think your bewildered "how could this happen?" explanation is probably pretty much how it happened.
You can only get done as much as you're allowed to get done. Designers were allowed to design. Animators were allowed to animate. No one was allowed or able to actually build anything.
Throw in very expensive rents and a micromanaging + absentee boss whose plans change like the wind on a whim, who constantly makes impossible promises the staff are left to make come true, and who has his hand in the kitty (it always comes back to arrested development), and it's hard for me to imagine how they would accomplish much of anything.
Quoted from benheck:Rarehero what do you think the median income for a game studio CGI animator in Salt Lake City would be? Times 40, add 20% for SS, UEI, MC, insurance and that's their yearly burn for salary alone?
I'm guessing 80k so a 4m/year burn MINIMUM?
Scandell would be the one with that info! Game animation is very different from my world - but from what I hear they tend to be underpaid/overworked…with lower cost of living in SLC, he could have gotten away with paying lower - but sounds like he paid well.
For those scoring at home, Deeproot Studios entered the Utah new business registry reporting 67 employees.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I think your bewildered "how could this happen?" explanation is probably pretty much how it happened.
You can only get done as much as you're allowed to get done. Designers were allowed to design. Animators were allowed to animate. No one was allowed or able to actually build anything.
Throw in very expensive rents and a micromanaging + absentee boss whose plans change like the wind on a whim, who constantly makes impossible promises the staff are left to make come true, and who has his hand in the kitty (it always comes back to arrested development), and it's hard for me to imagine how they would accomplish much of anything.
There’s always money in the banana stand.
Quoted from Rarehero:Scandell would be the one with that info! Game animation is very different from my world - but from what I hear they tend to be underpaid/overworked…with lower cost of living in SLC, he could have gotten away with paying lower - but sounds like he paid well.
Early on Robert wanted "DISNEY QUALITY ANIMATIONS!" for his games (because they were so beautiful) so it's my assumption he went to Salt Lake to hire up laid-off Avalanche Software employees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_Software
This would be akin to John discovering Jeremy by googling "Zombie Art"
Quoted from greatwichjohn:But time will tell in the future who continues on, & who might come to a end.
captain obvious (resized).jpgQuoted from spfxted:[quoted image]
"Future events such as this will impact all of us in the future"
-Criswell the Great
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:Chris is adamant that the RAZA prototype should be destroyed and put an end to any speculation, rarity or 'value' once and for all.
I say give it to Bill. It's his IP, and if he feels the same way about it, he should be the one allowed to smash it.
Odds are unlikely... if the prototype IS destroyed and the SEC determines that it should have been an asset to seize and auction to pay back the fraud, there likely would be added penalties for the destruction of the asset.
Quoted from LynnInDenver:Odds are unlikely... if the prototype IS destroyed and the SEC determines that it should have been an asset to seize and auction to pay back the fraud, there likely would be added penalties for the destruction of the asset.
WHAT IF... someone whose name isn't Ice... buys the prototypes to give each little old lady 3 cents back... and THEN burns it?
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:There is an index of key posts at the top of every page in the thread. I marked one a day or two ago. At least one other has been marked since then.
My bad. I missed the button that said "show all pinned posts." found em.
A fool and his money will soon part ways. How anyone can hold any hope on receiving their pin or defends this company needs their head examined. Denial is not a good thing.
Quoted from cpr9999:While I tend to agree with game flow of your comments- the message to send here is never buy a game without playing it first for both flow and code. I can not call it a bad game, because as I have been advised over the years to play it first before I call it bad or good. No matter what people are selling you in this hobby.
In some parts of the word (the part of Australia I'm in), it just isn't a possibility to play new in box games before purchasing
Loser Kid podcast ep 67 is up.
All Deep ponzi talk.
They have Colin Macalpine on, who was one of the deep 6.
You can listen on podbay, if your not on soundcloud.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Bill can chime in his intentions or wait to see what happens. No different than Heighway & Dutch Pinball revival. Even Stern & JJP almost went under. Pinball is HARD!
Heighway Pinball: -$2.2m. Deeproot: -$58m.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:"Future events such as this will impact all of us in the future"
-Criswell the Great
"My friend, you have seen this incident based on sworn testimony. Can you prove that it didn't happen? God help us... IN THE FUTURE."
Quoted from NoQuarters:deeproot would have had a better shot being named deepoop and making the bidet's you guys are talking about !
That is funny. I've been twist-reading "Deeproot" sort of like that. As in Danish, a "prut" = a fart. So Deeproot = Dee proot = Dee prut = The fart. See.
Quoted from benheck:Rarehero what do you think the median income for a game studio CGI animator in Salt Lake City would be? Times 40, add 20% for SS, UEI, MC, insurance and that's their yearly burn for salary alone?
I'm guessing 80k so a 4m/year burn MINIMUM? I ask because I think the "studios" was a HUGE % of the spend. Maybe as much or more than pinball.
Addendum: Robert does (did) offer very competitive salaries and benefits. I know because he tried to hire me too.
One more edit: Robert stealing 3m is peanuts compared to what he probably spent on salaries when fully staffed.
Robert himself bragged about a $750k per month spend on overhead, which wouldn't take too long to get into 8-figure territory. 14 months to be more exact...and this sounds like it went on for a year or two at least. I don't think this guy was smart enough to park money offshore for a rainy day...he did everything out in the open using his corporate credit cards!
Not having enough money to pay dividends to investors last fall tells me its all gone. Demanding preorder money while pushing the FOMO angle was a real headscratcher at the time, but I bet Robert was so tapped out that he was hoping to raise a couple million worth of cash to buy him another month or two of time with investors. A Spooky sized run of 1500 machines at an average of $2k down between people who paid in full and the 10% deposit crowd, would have netted DR $3M cash.
I am sure this saga will take several years to shake out, but I will be interested to see where the PPP money went. We know it didn't go toward paying salaries.
Just taking some rough guesses here
$30 million spent on pinball and an animation studio that generated little value or assets. They seem to have a few parts, maybe some office equipment, and some tooling and machining equipment that’s probably low seven figures at best.
$11m in life insurance policies as agreed upon in the original investment - who knows if these assets actually produced value or are still owned
So that leaves around $17m which was mostly Ponzi payouts with probably $5m to Robert in salary, lifestyle expenses, sports tickets, tuition, and a handful of tangible assets like a condo, jewelry, his pinball collection, etc.
I have a feeling 80% of the 58m has totally evaporated.
I think some may be underestimating how long it is going to take for this whole thing to play out. Obviously, the SEC component will take awhile. But then you have the inevitable claw-back decisions, which won't be quick (people may not know but in the Madoff case, the clawback extended to people that had been in the fund and cashed out long before the scam was exposed. Imagine getting that knock on the door!). The follow-up suits by scammed investors will take even longer. Of course, you will have the likely bankruptcy of the pinball co...again, a very protracted process. And lawsuits by vendors that haven't been paid.
And.... what are the odds that RM reported the extra income? You think his W2 included the transfer to the trust, the jewelry, the private school tuition? Think the IRS will be auditing his returns for the last seven years? Once the govt smells blood in the water, they tend to come at you from all angles. Would anyone be surprised if more issues surfaced? He was desperate for $ to cover the fraud. Was dr making payroll tax payments, was the PPP being used in accordance with the guidelines? Will there be criminal charges? This is gonna take a long, long time to sort through
Quoted from zaphX:And the biggest shame of it all? The prototypes in Houston were not bad games! All they had to do was finish that.
No pinbar, no pincrate, just finish the good thing that was going there.
RM never had the capacity or ability to produce a standard plain gimmick free machine
He was never going to be able to manufacturer anything with out a shit load of help from manufacturing people that knew what they were doing
Quoted from Rarehero:Also Millionaire Matchmaker
Oh wow. “Dry eggs”, lol!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:It does not mean any of these JPOP games or other titles done there will not see the light of day in the future. We will have to see who buys what is left & what they want to do with the assets.
Think about this realistically. Any company picking up these designs would need to re-implement them on their own hardware/software platform. That's similar to Chicago Gaming's effort to create the Williams remakes. That is, a TON of work. I don't see that happening.
Quoted from TreyBo69:...
I have a feeling 80% of the 58m has totally evaporated.
SEC says it is all gone. I think we’ve uncovered Robert’s special skill - spending other people’s money. The SEC’s primary case is based on banking records, as Robert kept no documentation. The case identifies deeproot’s lack of company records and documents as a red flag.
E2FE31AA-4A77-4B56-8DD3-851567CA8AC5.jpeg
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:It's definitely critical to keep trying to make these stupid games because one decade of wasted effort isn't enough and there also aren't literally an infinite number of other scandal-free themes that could be made instead.
But what if there was a goodwill effort, by a benevolent millionaire? Maybe an African gold digging IT systems designer with a law degree and a knack for making money? I mean, the principles of gravitivity and polarity indicate that it could happen! Because RAZA looks so fun!
Quoted from KerryImming:Think about this realistically. Any company picking up these designs would need to re-implement them on their own hardware/software platform. That's similar to Chicago Gaming's effort to create the Williams remakes. That is, a TON of work. I don't see that happening.
All the coding is likely worthless
A foam core layout and maybe the CAD for it is worth a few thousand dollars.
And you’re not necessarily getting the people who did all the design work to make sense of all the project files and know the status of it all
What company would bother with any of this vs letting their teams do things the way they normally operate and are successful with?
Even the animations are mostly worthless because deeproot chose really dumb themes. If you get them for cheap, is someone really going to work backwards from two minutes of Arthurian Knight animations to make a game? And there’s a big assumption that they even made all the right animations a pinball machine would need to feel complete.
The animations at best show up as free to play mobile app advertisements.
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