Quoted from Zablon:Sorry, I'll let you get back to your echo chamber.
Says the guy praising magic girl... the biggest fail of how to design pins in the modern era.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
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Topic Gallery
Quoted from lpeters82:I'd start saving pennies if Spooky ever committed to building The Big Lebowski. With that said, does Spooky have the capacity for a much larger market share, without expanding to a more urban area? They went from what what 150 to 300 to 500 to 500. I certainly could be wrong, but a run of 750 or 1000 seems near capacity in Benton.
He's making a critique of the way he considers that Charlie has run Spooky - doing what he likes rather than that which may be good for business. Not suggesting that Spooky should build TBL.
Kellogg, IA
Quoted from flynnibus:Says the guy praising magic girl... the biggest fail of how to design pins in the modern era.
Followed closely by others being suggested. Not sure I see your point, but not really interested in trying since you didn't try to see mine.
Quoted from Zablon:Followed closely by others being suggested. Not sure I see your point, but not really interested in trying since you didn't try to see mine.
It’s a game lead by the visuals instead of what you actually do in pinball... play the game. It was never flushed out as an actual flipping playfield. It was not designed with any engineering. It was not designed with any form of team work except for JPOP being the common element. It was designed with the policy that contributors didn’t even know who else was working on the project. As such the game is only as good as what jpop could imagine himself... which is why it’s an unplayable hunk of crap with pretty art and an attractive lead character design.
The project is the poster child of virtually everything not to do in a complex project - and the output reflects that.
Quoted from rubberducks:He's making a critique of the way he considers that Charlie has run Spooky - doing what he likes rather than that which may be good for business. Not suggesting that Spooky should build TBL.
My point is, if they are reaching capacity by doing what they like, are they really leaving any money on the table by not doing what's "good for business"?
Quoted from Bublehead:Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.
I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.
That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.
All those in favor of Bublehead giving us a tl;dr for each of his posts, please raise your hands.
Quoted from lpeters82:My point is, if they are reaching capacity by doing what they like, are they really leaving any money on the table by not doing what's "good for business"?
What does this have to do with the comment? Ben's comment was about the choice in titles and game economics - not about the choice to stay 'right sized' and not grow.
Quoted from flynnibus:What does this have to do with the comment? Ben's comment was about the choice in titles and game economics - not about the choice to stay 'right sized' and not grow.
I'm not sure I'm following. If they choose more popular titles, with no capacity to produce more games, what is the economic benefit?
Quoted from JodyG:All those in favor of Bublehead giving us a tl;dr for each of his posts, please raise your hands.
+1
But I would rather people just put me on blocked or ignore... thay way they don’t need to do anything, because I couldn’t care less.
Quoted from lpeters82:I'm not sure I'm following. If they choose more popular titles, with no capacity to produce more games, what is the economic benefit?
I think you're missing the comments and pattern . The pokes by Ben have not been about Spooky's limited production capacity and slow growth choice - but over WHAT titles they chose to produce.
He's already said in the past his choice was getting put down because of concerns over license costs and the most recent comment about theme selection -- Spooky picking titles Charlie is interested in, vs different opinions on what the market may want. Spooky has to be very diligent in what titles they chose to produce because they are essentially single tracked right.
The more successful their titles are (even if they didn't change their volume) - the less risk they face, the better chance for later re-runs, the less need to rely on 'limited' as a selling tool, the greater opportunity they have for securing future resources or titles.
Quoted from Bublehead:+1
But I would rather people just put me on blocked or ignore... thay way they don’t need to do anything, because I couldn’t care less.
Quoted from Bublehead:and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.
You realize they already did made commitments to early Zidware buyers when this all started which they didn’t need to clean up his mess but did.
Quoted from lpeters82:with no capacity to produce more games, what is the economic benefit?
what is the capacity requirement for a game that isnt production ready for ~8 months after people were told production was to begin? 0 for those 8 months. what are the economic benefits of having interest-free use of hundreds of thousands of dollars in non-refundable deposits for nearly a year before production actually begins?
Quoted from Yelobird:You realize they already did made commitments to early Zidware buyers when this all started which they didn’t need to clean up his mess but did.
Yes, but I would not have come out of the gate with the offer. I would start production, sell some games, get my self established as a manufacturer and profitable, then take on the burden of Zidware... that was the change I was expressing on how DR could try to make Zidware customers whole. But this is just musings. For the sake of those who are in the red on any pin misadventure, I hope DR can help out.
Quoted from Yelobird:You realize they already did made commitments to early Zidware buyers when this all started which they didn’t need to clean up his mess but did.
And people believed him and believed DR was somehow different. I just don't get it.
Düsseldorf
I'm late to the Party with the last announcement but while I'd like for them to have made the date:
To announce that they will not be able to make it MONTHS in advance speaks for them.
(That means that they have a real plan, with Milestones and such, that made them REALIZE that.)
Remember CGC that on the last days announced MBR will not make it or Heighway with it's in "two weeks".
Quoted from jonesjb:Was Deeproot’s logo designed in house or by an external agency?
Excremental Agency if you do the analogy.
Quoted from Yelobird:which they didn’t need to clean up his mess but did.
Not yet.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Excremental Agency if you do the analogy.
It was a genuine question.
There's an incredible amount of skill and nuance that goes into creating logo design, things that aren't obvious to the non-graphic designer. Some might say that designing a logo is easy, but thinking it's that simple could be considered an example of the Dunning Kruger effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Wasn't there an earlier version of the logo with a gear in it that then changed? That to me suggests that someone else thought the original version wasn't considered effective enough to keep. I'm not saying that is the case here, and I bring no malice, just trying to understand. I really wish great things for Deeproot Pinball, and am excited to see the innovations they bring to the industry. It's disappointing to see they will no longer be able to meet the 5 days of Deeproot event at Texas, I just hope they haven't over promised and I hope we're not seeing the Dunning Kruger effect applied to pinball creation.
Quoted from jonesjb:It was a genuine question.
There's an incredible amount of skill and nuance that goes into creating logo design, things that aren't obvious to the non-graphic designer. Some might say that designing a logo is easy, but thinking it's that simple could be considered an example of the Dunning Kruger effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Wasn't there an earlier version of the logo with a gear in it that then changed? That to me suggests that someone else thought the original version wasn't considered effective enough to keep. I'm not saying that is the case here, and I bring no malice, just trying to understand. I really wish great things for Deeproot Pinball, and am excited to see the innovations they bring to the industry. It's disappointing to see they will no longer be able to meet the 5 days of Deeproot event at Texas, I just hope they haven't over promised and I hope we're not seeing the Dunning Kruger effect applied to pinball creation.
Logo design may not be easy, but it would be very easy to do better than the appalling current logo (which is also unintentionally suggestive), and even easier to junk it.
I guess Robert may have either come up with or commissioned it, because it is so ridiculously bad that I can't imagine how they'd have stuck with it so long, otherwise.
Quoted from rubberducks:Logo design may not be easy, but it would be very easy to do better than the appalling current logo
Yeah, like this one ...
Greendale Flag (resized).pngQuoted from benheck:But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.
I don’t agree with this. Frankly there are MUCH easier ways to make money than running a pinball company. If you’re not doing what you love and care about, personally and emotionally, then what’s the point?
But this is also my argument for why licenses are dumb so ...
Quoted from Aurich:I don’t agree with this. Frankly there are MUCH easier ways to make money than running a pinball company. If you’re not doing what you love and care about, personally and emotionally, then what’s the point?
But this is also my argument for why licenses are dumb so ...
The market is asking for more J-pop pinball games because Stern is turning out the same boring game with a different theme. Would like to see Williams & Bally get resurrected sometime as they made some of the best machines. Spooky is making some good stuff as well. Just saw Oktoberfest from American and that looked pretty good as well. Variety is key
Quoted from wolfemaaan:Would like to see Williams & Bally get resurrected sometime as they made some of the best machines. Variety is key
Seems like CGC has already performed that seance? No?
Quoted from Bublehead:Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.
I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.
That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.
Did Magic Girl actually have *missing* mechs? I know it had a shot or two that was not possible to make - blocked or something - and I know about the levitating ball failure. But were there other mechs missing? Wow.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Did Magic Girl actually have *missing* mechs? I know it had a shot or two that was not possible to make - blocked or something - and I know about the levitating ball failure. But were there other mechs missing? Wow.
Not sure how many mechs or just the levitating ball one (the original discription after getting the machine was dangling wires and plug, and missing mech?), but can we agree not complete by any stretch of the imagination? That was my real point there.
Quoted from Bublehead:Not sure how many mechs or just the levitating ball one (the original discription after getting the machine was dangling wires and plug, and missing mech?), but can we agree not complete by any stretch of the imagination? That was my real point there.
That’s kinda what I thought - that sounded like new info. No argument it was an incomplete box of lights
Quoted from NoQuarters:Real reality is better.
Why not both? 
2 weeks later
"deeproot Pinball plans to give away a FREE pinball machine for each designer to some lucky winners!! Designers include Robert Mueller, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, Barry Oursler, and John Popadiuk. You get a FREE deeproot machine of your choice by that designer! The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends. These giveaways will take place after deeproot Pinball officially launches!! (Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change.)"
Oh my.. where have we heard this before...
Quoted from flynnibus:"deeproot Pinball plans to give away a FREE pinball machine for each designer to some lucky winners!! Designers include Robert Mueller, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, Barry Oursler, and John Popadiuk. You get a FREE deeproot machine of your choice by that designer! The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends. These giveaways will take place after deeproot Pinball officially launches!! (Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change.)"
Oh my.. where have we heard this before...
How can you give away what doesn't exist? What's next, are they going to give away air?
Quoted from flynnibus:"deeproot Pinball plans to give away a FREE pinball machine for each designer to some lucky winners!! Designers include Robert Mueller, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, Barry Oursler, and John Popadiuk. You get a FREE deeproot machine of your choice by that designer! The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends. These giveaways will take place after deeproot Pinball officially launches!! (Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change.)"
Oh my.. where have we heard this before...
Lol. This can’t be serious
Designers include Robert......?
"The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends."
The above looks awfully familiar ... sounds like someone we know is calling the shots.
Is JPop's body an empty vessel, with one of those parasitic mind slug things controlling it, and has he infected RM?
Seems like it.
Melbourne
Quoted from Drewscruis:How can you give away what doesn't exist? What's next, are they going to give away air?
Are you saying air doesn't exist
.
*Gasp*
Quoted from rubberducks:"The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends."
lol...yeah...have Poppadouchebag come over someones house. I'm sure they will have 4 "friends" there..... 
I’d go for a Barry machine. I own Pinbot and have a BO signed translite in my machine. So call me a fan boy, but both my ‘bot machines have been signed. Python (RIP) signed my BOP Heart Ramp at Expo. Yeah, they are giving away free vapor ware prizes. So what? I would enter said contest and put the winning notification letter in a nice matte frame and hang it in my game room. If a machine eventually gets delivered and I wheel it in the old game room, I will gladly take the letter down and toss it out.
Quoted from rubberducks:"The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends."
The above looks awfully familiar ... sounds like someone we know is calling the shots.
Is JPop's body an empty vessel, with one of those parasitic mind slug things controlling it, and has he infected RM?
Seems like it.
You have got to be kidding me!!!
Quoted from flynnibus:"deeproot Pinball plans to give away a FREE pinball machine for each designer to some lucky winners!! Designers include Robert Mueller, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, Barry Oursler, and John Popadiuk. You get a FREE deeproot machine of your choice by that designer! The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends. These giveaways will take place after deeproot Pinball officially launches!! (Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change.)"
Oh my.. where have we heard this before...
I wonder what the Odds are that this happens ? Kind of sounds far fetched and like recycled hyperbole. But there is the disclaimer - Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change. I'd hang my hat on the disclaimer.
I'm skeptical if games ever make full production. I'll believe it when I see it.
Robert is starting to make me feel like he is the kind of guy that has to be in the spotlight at all costs. Why would you come out and say this now, when you have zero games shown and already had to put your tail between your legs and walk back your original grandiose plan of launching 5 games at TPF. I feel like Robert Mueller is jealous over Stern getting all kinds of positive hype on a national stage, so Deeproot comes out with this statement to keep them relevant (in their own eyes) for another 5 minutes. Things are starting to smell a bit rotten here. Robert, if you want to put Deeproot in the headlines, show us some progress on your games. Show us SOMETHING. Stop making grand promises with zero tangible items to back them up. That is not how you build credibility. Where's the beef?
2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT
Would like to see deeproot live up to their "vision" or whatever you want to call it. But a very healthy dose of skepticism seems quite warranted.
I'm in the show me camp. Hope they deliver..... meanwhile time marches on.
Quoted from JodyG:Robert is starting to make me feel like he is the kind of guy that has to be in the spotlight at all costs. Why would you come out and say this now, when you have zero games shown and already had to put your tail between your legs and walk back your original grandiose plan of launching 5 games at TPF. I feel like Robert Mueller is jealous over Stern getting all kinds of positive hype on a national stage, so Deeproot comes out with this statement to keep them relevant (in their own eyes) for another 5 minutes. Things are starting to smell a bit rotten here. Robert, if you want to put Deeproot in the headlines, show us some progress on your games. Show us SOMETHING. Stop making grand promises with zero tangible items to back them up. That is not how you build credibility. Where's the beef?
It’s a repost dude and now you look silly
Quoted from lancestorm:It’s a repost dude and now you look silly
I'm still highly skeptical until we see the goods.
Quoted from deeproot:2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT
Awesome, my apologies on not picking up this was a repost and most of the conclusions I made. I am still skeptical of the whole situation though...given the poor record of new companies starting up in the pinball industry. If you prove me wrong in the coming months, I promise i'll be the first to eat my shoes.
Quoted from lancestorm:It’s a repost dude and now you look silly
The mere fact they said it once is enough to repost and laugh. Did he seriously not know JPOOP did the same thing?
It would be different it was never said.
This would be like his comments about "pinball is easy" don't count because he said them in 2018.
It was said, and the giveaway still stands (including the guys coming to your house to set it up - unless you don't want them to come), so it's fair to talk about it.
Quoted from deeproot:2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT
Regardless of when the idea was introduced, it was advertised in the Jan 10 post from TWIP as 'future giveaway' - so please don't try to flush this away as if someone were copying something old out place.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/december-giveaway-winners-january-giveaway-extravaganza-enter-now/
All the same cringe worthy promises in there still have their own stigmas
Quoted from JodyG:Awesome, my apologies on not picking up this was a repost and most of the conclusions I made
It's not a repost of something out of date.. It's an ad ran in this week's TWIP about a promo DP setup prior.. which apparently they still want to promote.
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