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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#2151 5 years ago
 
JLM

jlm33

Pinside member

FR Villejuif

11y 152K 5,892 7 169

Quoted from flynnibus:

Wooly tho is more akin to TBL - just because you have a game you built, and can even reproduce manually, does not really make it production ready.

The initial number of MG (16) was not that different from the number of Wooly pins assembled (6). In both cases this seemed doable with a very limited infrastructure - no factory required, Do it yourself assembly, etc.
I am pretty sure people would have lined up to help JPop for free... Hell, he would have probably convinced people to pay for that (Pinball assembly lessons 101)

But the similarity ends here.
- Scott was not trying to reinvent the well with each part.
- His prototype was working and fully playable. People paid for an actual product (I did!)
- As soon as JPop announced he would then build 100+ or more RAZA, the Assembled-in-your-garage approach would not work anymore.

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#2152 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from jlm33:

As soon as JPop announced he would then build 100+ or more RAZA, the Assembled-in-your-garage approach would not work anymore.

Hence the "Ben Heck will build it in your house for you" solution.

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#2153 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from jlm33:

- As soon as JPop announced he would then build 100+ or more RAZA, the Assembled-in-your-garage approach would not work anymore.

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.

As I've said a zillion times the difference between early Spooky/Scott and Jpop is Spooky had to SHOW A REAL GAME to get any money. People don't work very hard for money that's already in the bank.

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#2154 5 years ago
 
MWS

Methos

Pinside member

US Lodi, WI

12y 103K 7,273 21 10 1

What made people believe that JPOP could run a pinball manufacturing business?
What makes people believe that Robert can run a pinball manufacturing business?

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#2155 5 years ago
 
DAV

InfiniteLives

Pinside member

10y 125K 4,556 283

Quoted from Methos:

What made people believe that JPOP could run a pinball manufacturing business?
What makes people believe that Robert can run a pinball manufacturing business?

sleight of hand?

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#2156 5 years ago
 
ABB

Aurich

Mods and Opinions

US Torrance, CA

11y 144K 23,395 3

Quoted from frolic:

No posts from you in these threads. You failed me.

I honestly drained any jpop thread I posted in ages ago, so I couldn't tell you where I was posting. The drain feature is amazing, so good for my mental health.

It's not like I was the only skeptic, I'm just trying to poke holes in this "no one was saying otherwise" narrative. We were. We pointed out the obvious flaws, and no one wanted to hear it. At least with Heighway Andrew had a freaking factory. They shipped games, they made that Bacardi thing, it all was real. He was just shitty at managing it all, and covered it up with a web of deceit. Different sort of delusions.

There were Alien flipping prototypes at Expo, the games had real code, real assets. Much like TBL the house of cards collapsed, but at least the games were real. Magic Girl doesn't even get to claim that.

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#2157 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from aeneas:

It was indeed pre-sales and nothing else.
For those asking why people wouldn't understand it wasn't crowdfunding or investing - this was back in 2010 or 2011, crowdfunding was non-existant then, kickstarter probably didn't exist ?

No, crowdfunding was a thing - it's just not what Zidware was.

Quoted from aeneas:

The only comparable project was Gene's BBB. Gene basically did the same - presales. He made some flyers, went to a pinball show with a BBB, announced he was going to make it and collected money. Then people didn't hear from him for a long time (except some rumours) and suddenly BBB's got delivered.

Not true.. While it's true Gene did not publize updates, etc.. the struggles were very much discussed in the hobby. The whole BearCave guys fallout... Kerry Stair coming in and rescuing the project, etc. It wasn't an open book, but it was far from a 'years later, games appeared'. It's all out there on RGP. BBB was the zidware of the day and if it weren't for Kerry, it would have failed. There are parallels here... the idea guy probably isn't the one who will be able to get the project over the line - they need the expertise along side them. Gene had money and the inventory.. so he had that huge head start. And even that was not enough to build a pinball machine successfully. Even tho the project got done (thank you Gene) they finished it only at the expense of tons of money lost and lots of people/relationships ruined.

Quoted from aeneas:

John had a much higher price so people assumed John had done his math and was able to produce the game

That's the horrible line of thinking - and gets back to what I've said before... people somehow only focus on this 'per unit profit' mindset which is nothing about how a business needs to fund itself. He could make 10k margin per game, but if he only sells 20 games.. that's still only 200k to run the business with. Knowing a project will take a year or more... then start thinking about all the expenses you incurr, in labor, overhead, tooling, you see how the numbers aren't going to add up. 200k sounds like a ton until you realize that's the only money you have, and it's supposed to last you through startup, design, ramp, production, and till your next game sale. It's not just about margin per game, it's margin AND volume that matter... and why boutiques (that last..) charge so much more per unit.

Quoted from aeneas:

The only real difference between Gene and JPop is that Gene had a game to make. JPop still had to invent everything

No, JPOP INSISTED on inventing everything - even where readily available stuff worked just fine. And he was getting called out on that all along. The stupid leg bolts? The Z everything metal stamping, etc. This is just one of the many reasons that he was never going to make it, and the whole salary thing is just a emotional distraction. He was burning money chasing different projects, without any timetables, designing and prototyping completely unnecessary parts, spending way too much on overhead when he didn't need it yet, and more.

It's not his salary that sank Zidware, it was his management of zidware that did.

Which is why deeproot's disclosure of numbers is of interest. With correct management, you don't spend that kind of money they quoted without a plan for proportionally sized REVENUE. So what is their plan that pulls in that kind of revenue, because it doesn't line up with small pinball volumes.

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#2158 5 years ago
 
MWS

Methos

Pinside member

US Lodi, WI

12y 103K 7,273 21 10 1

How many games will he need to sell in order to make back his sunk costs? Even one month's worth? He's either inflating his expenses (assuming capital outlays are also being included, although they are deprecated), or he's a lousy businessman.

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#2159 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from jlm33:

The initial number of MG (16) was not that different from the number of Wooly pins assembled (6). In both cases this seemed doable with a very limited infrastructure - no factory required, Do it yourself assembly, etc.

But Scott wasn't pretending to run a business - he allowed a select group to buy and build a project. So when everything runs in the red and doesn't matter what it costs.. that's fine. JPOP was promising to do radical things and somehow make a business out of it.

Quoted from jlm33:

But the similarity ends here.

Agreed - It's not so much that assembling a handful of games wasn't doable by JPOP - it's that doing so as a business that isn't a charity, while reinventing everything, doing it premium, and without any paid help wasn't really doable.

Quoted from jlm33:

I am pretty sure people would have lined up to help JPop for free... Hell, he would have probably convinced people to pay for that (Pinball assembly lessons 101)

But that scenario played out too... 1) batshit crazy JPOP secracy 2) failed promises 3) incompetency that ran off those that DID sign on him to help him (just go back and re-read applejuices and zombieyeti tales for start.. let alone the other individuals who tried to get involved)

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#2160 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from benheck:

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.

But Spooky did how much of it with friends and family labor? (jpop needed all his help)
Spooky floated the slow production with their own money and their existing business (zidware had no other business)
Spooky was doing what.. 2-3 games a week in the original setup right?
Spooky didn't paint themselves any bigger or capable than what they were
Spooky almost immediately outgrew that initial space and space was a limiting factor in their work

We all know people can build a game, or even multiple games in their basements no less. But I don't think that compares to repeating that, reliably, at scale.

And neither DP or Deeproot are aiming for such low production volume

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#2161 5 years ago
 
CCB

boo32

Pinside+ Addict

US Richmond, VA

12y 61,800 943 6

We are all wrong from time to time

I'm not a big fan of the pre-order model myself. But in a funny way I'm in on this deeper than anyone else. I don't see any compensation for my work until the games ship. I'll get my own personal LE, and my payments are all royalty based. No game, nothing for me but a ton of my time spent!
So honestly I'm "gambling" more than anyone who's put money down on this. And I'm perfectly comfortable with it. IMHO the "worst case scenario" is simply that the games take longer to ship than people would like. Alien was probably announced a little early. So it goes, that's pinball. Heighway is a legit company, with a real factory, a real plan, and real ambitions. And they've got real funding.

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#2162 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,897 28 49

Quoted from benheck:

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.
As I've said a zillion times the difference between early Spooky/Scott and Jpop is Spooky had to SHOW A REAL GAME to get any money. People don't work very hard for money that's already in the bank.

Which is stupid and makes no sense if you want to remain viable

The idiot Jpop figured he could just doodle around until some investor came along to save his ass.

Honestly, the first sign of absolute stupidity was making you Ben a central figure in RAZA. No offense but that was as ridiculous as both of you coming to our houses to do the personal builds.

It was an excellent con game on his part. That ended in disaster.

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#2163 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

So what date is the first J-Pop deeproot Pin coming out in 2019? Do we know what theme it will be?

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#2164 5 years ago
 
ALT

taylor34

Game Room Info

12y 124K 2,357 9 32

Quoted from frolic:

But no one also could have predicted that jpop would be paying himself handsomely for years and finishing nothing.

This is not to rub salt in anyone's wounds, but in the original announcement thread (on rgp), a lot of people didn't think it made financial sense and highly questioned whether it would be produced. It didn't matter, it still sold out immediately.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/l9ehsfNqKuo

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#2165 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from taylor34:

This is not to rub salt in anyone's wounds, but in the original announcement thread (on rgp), a lot of people didn't think it made financial sense and highly questioned whether it would be produced. It didn't matter, it still sold out immediately.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/l9ehsfNqKuo

Thanks, that was more what I was looking for, something dated 2011 when he announced it, and who critically saw it then, not the 2014 threads (culminating with the "empty cabinets" Expo). By 2014 he already had my money.

I never used RGP so I never saw that originally, but those that posted there get "I told you so" rights .

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#2166 5 years ago
 
CJS

HeavyMetalBalls

Inactive member

US Corpus Christi, TX

7y 29,550 71 8

Quoted from Roostking:

Troll post lol. Nothing to see here!

Yeah, let's keep this thread to the back and forth bitching and moaning. No room for deeproot optimism in the deeproot thread... Lol, keep on keeping on pinside users

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#2167 5 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from frolic:

I never used RGP so I never saw that originally, but those that posted there get "I told you so" rights

No they don't, not really. They spoke in generalized terms and they were just guessing at the time and they had a chance at being correct.
Those same people also chanted incessantly before this at how Gene Cunningham would never get Big Bang Bar made and delivered. Google, Pigs Will Never Fly and BBB for that shit show.

Some of the know it all people bragging in this thread also predicted the end to Jersey Jack a few years ago. Some of them promised us repeatedly that Heighway Pinball was the greatest company ever.

Congratulations to all of the blind squirrels. - I always enjoy your bragging as you back-fill with detail "after the fact".

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#2168 5 years ago
 
???

Sinestro

Inactive member

Unknown

7y 59,400 2,410 1

Quoted from Mr68:

Some of the know it all people bragging in this thread also predicted the end to Jersey Jack a few years ago.

JJP is slow at everything....including going out of business.

Interpret that as you will.

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#2169 5 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from Sinestro:

JJP is slow at everything....including going out of business.
Interpret that as you will.

I interpret that as extremely funny. And like all great humor it has a grain of truth to it.
Well done.

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#2170 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,469 10

I don’t care what happened back then, water under the bridge and all, but I do care that people got screwed, and to that end, I am hopefully optomistic DR doesnt pull a JPop Redux, and would caution people not to get their hopes up or put any money into DR they are not willing to loose. You got expendable and disposable and discretionary income and you want to promote the continuity of pinball machine production?, by all means, throw money at DR. But anyone pulling their IRA or 401k monies out to invest in DR should have their heads examined. I felt a little apprehensive putting $1000 non refundable deposit down on CGC’s MBrLE, and they have a track record and a history of delivering.

One should not put a lot of significance on WHO they have hired at DR, but more on what actual chance do they have of meeting the high goals they have outlined so far. Those claims are so far fetched and pie in the sky, that they alone would make me go wtf? More so than knowing JPop is on board.

I think too much emphasis has been placed on the designers and coders and trying to determine if past glories equate to future victories... As far as I can remember, every Lawlor and Richie has had their Commode Shows and Stellar Bores as well as their successes.

People like to think designers are the real gods of pinball, and I would disagree... the real gods of pinball are the players. Without our coin drops, pinball would not exist.

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#2171 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from Mr68:

No they don't, not really. They spoke in generalized terms and they were just guessing at the time and they had a chance at being correct.

Well, that is how the entire psychic industry operates as well, and they get it right some of the time. lol.

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#2172 5 years ago
 
ALT

taylor34

Game Room Info

12y 124K 2,357 9 32

Quoted from Mr68:

No they don't, not really. They spoke in generalized terms and they were just guessing at the time and they had a chance at being correct.
Those same people also chanted incessantly before this at how Gene Cunningham would never get Big Bang Bar made and delivered. Google, Pigs Will Never Fly and BBB for that shit show.
Some of the know it all people bragging in this thread also predicted the end to Jersey Jack a few years ago. Some of them promised us repeatedly that Heighway Pinball was the greatest company ever.
Congratulations to all of the blind squirrels. - I always enjoy your bragging as you back-fill with detail "after the fact".

To be fair on BBB, that never would have been made had people not gone out of their way to save it. I don't think Gene by himself was going to get it done, much in the same way those initial Magic Girls weren't going to be built without American Pinball.

Those naysayers aren't wrong. Without outside assistance, was BBB going to be built? No. Magic girl? No. JJP games after Woz? No. If someone is going to fail and gets 'bailed out', that means the naysayers were right. Just like the banks in 2008, they were going to fail without a bailout. In fact it kind of reaffirms that the naysayers were right about the initial business plan.

When the initial magic girl listing came out, I thought he was doing this on the side and making a simplistic game with great art, because there was no way that someone could develop a full sized legit pinball machine on $230k. Way too much software/mechanical development cost to make that. I figured it would be something similar to Whoa Nellie or Vacation America. I didn't know it was a complete game till later on.

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#2173 5 years ago
 
???

Sinestro

Inactive member

Unknown

7y 59,400 2,410 1

What outside assistance did Gene have? He hired everyone who worked on that project, no?

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#2174 5 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,987 24 7

Quoted from Sinestro:

What outside assistance did Gene have? He hired everyone who worked on that project, no?

I believe there were four different groups who one at a time had problems with them and Gene or Gene and them. There were some locals who volunteered free labor. And Kerry Stair ( Mantis Amusements - great pinball weldments and protectors, etc. ) who came in to build a game or two and found out he was completing them.

I never got paid. Not even a free part. There was hardly a day that they didn't email me for info or pictures.

Gene got it done. Take nothing away from him. And he lost a lot of money doing it. He did have help along the way, paid or not.

LTG : )

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#2175 5 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from taylor34:

To be fair on BBB, that never would have been made had people not gone out of their way to save it. I don't think Gene by himself was going to get it done, much in the same way those initial Magic Girls weren't going to be built without American Pinball.
Those naysayers aren't wrong. Without outside assistance, was BBB going to be built? No. Magic girl? No. JJP games after Woz? No. If someone is going to fail and gets 'bailed out', that means the naysayers were right. Just like the banks in 2008, they were going to fail without a bailout. In fact it kind of reaffirms that the naysayers were right about the initial business plan.
When the initial magic girl listing came out, I thought he was doing this on the side and making a simplistic game with great art, because there was no way that someone could develop a full sized legit pinball machine on $230k. Way too much software/mechanical development cost to make that. I figured it would be something similar to Whoa Nellie or Vacation America. I didn't know it was a complete game till later on.

I no longer have the heart to go back and forth on Pinside. I will only say that you seem to be rationalizing the results to fit a narrative and you have overlooked some of my points.
Best wishes.

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#2176 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from taylor34:

This is not to rub salt in anyone's wounds, but in the original announcement thread (on rgp), a lot of people didn't think it made financial sense and highly questioned whether it would be produced. It didn't matter, it still sold out immediately.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/l9ehsfNqKuo

And the most bizarre aspect of all of it was... frank f was the voice of reason! While everyone else was too busy talking about who has money or not. That just goes to show how buzzed people were at the time and detached from reality.

And MrBally at least got one right
“I'll go out on a limb and say that John Pop's and JJP's WoZ will all
get built (not sure about Gene, Gene the Dancing Machine's King Pins
as of late). Gary will be proven wrong, again.”

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#2177 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from taylor34:

To be fair on BBB, that never would have been made had people not gone out of their way to save it. I don't think Gene by himself was going to get it done, much in the same way those initial Magic Girls weren't going to be built without American Pinball.
Those naysayers aren't wrong. Without outside assistance, was BBB going to be built? No. Magic girl? No. JJP games after Woz? No. If someone is going to fail and gets 'bailed out', that means the naysayers were right. Just like the banks in 2008, they were going to fail without a bailout. In fact it kind of reaffirms that the naysayers were right about the initial business plan.

Eeeeexactly
36E2102E-656C-4E4F-B107-CD6AE9E8A874.gif36E2102E-656C-4E4F-B107-CD6AE9E8A874.gif

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#2178 5 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from flynnibus:

frank f was the voice of reason!

Quoted for my amusement.

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#2179 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from Mr68:

Quoted for my amusement.

I guess selective reading is a trait some just don't out grow...

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#2180 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

11y 106K 8,566 2

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

So what date is the first J-Pop deeproot Pin coming out in 2019? Do we know what theme it will be?

Shitshow LE. PM for details and exclusive insight showing how shit, will be shown. Payment information will be provided. FYI. Cash only.

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#2181 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,897 28 49

Jpop is bad karma. Period.

Only the lawyers win.

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#2182 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

Regardless of how butthurt a few are here, the complaints have no relevance on me (or anybody else) for buying the next great pinball machine from Deeproot or anybody else for that matter.

All that matters is how good it plays, the value for the price, and if its fun to ME.

So with that, keep the tears rollin here. Ill be off to play some J-Pop favorites (and Pinside/IPDB Top 20 Pins) like TOTAN, TOM, Cirque Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, etc.

Merry Christmas!

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#2183 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Regardless of how butthurt a few are here, the complaints have no relevance on me (or anybody else) for buying the next great pinball machine from Deeproot or anybody else for that matter.
All that matters is how good it plays, the value for the price, and if its fun to ME.
So with that, keep the tears rollin here. Ill be off to play some J-Pop favorites (and Pinside/IPDB Top 20 Pins) like TOTAN, TOM, Cirque Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, etc.
Merry Christmas!

glug, glug, glug...

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#2184 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

11y 106K 8,566 2

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Regardless of how butthurt a few are here, the complaints have no relevance on me (or anybody else) for buying the next great pinball machine from Deeproot or anybody else for that matter.
All that matters is how good it plays, the value for the price, and if its fun to ME.
So with that, keep the tears rollin here. Ill be off to play some J-Pop favorites (and Pinside/IPDB Top 20 Pins) like TOTAN, TOM, Cirque Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, etc.
Merry Christmas!

Cool, keep flipping! We all hope it works out, as DP has not asked for $$$ from buyers. DP brought this on themselves by hiring this criminal. Seriously, what value does he bring to DP. None. Which indicates they didnt do any due diligence before hiring this thief. Also, with this announcement that they will not be revealing 1 game, let alone 5 at one time means one thing.

Pinball is hard, but people don't listen.

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#2185 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Roostking:

Cool, keep flipping! We all hope it works out, as DP has not asked for $$$ from buyers. DP brought this on themselves by hiring this criminal. Seriously, what value does he bring to DP. None. Which indicates they didnt do any due diligence before hiring this thief. Also, with this announcement that they will not be revealing 1 game, let alone 5 at one time means one thing.
Pinball is hard, but people don't listen.

Well I want to say it again. Deeproot had no obligation to give me anything... nada...
Robert called me personally to let me know I would be receiving 2 Deeproot titles for my monetary loss to Zidware.
So where the heck is the problem?
Has Deeproot asked money up front from anyone?

I'm willing to wait a little bit longer.... ain't costin' me nothin'.

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#2186 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

11y 106K 8,566 2

Quoted from Fulltilt:

Well I want to say it again. Deeproot had no obligation to give me anything... nada...
Robert called me personally to let me know I would be receiving 2 Deeproot titles for my monetary loss to Zidware.
So where the heck is the problem?
Has Deeproot asked money up front from anyone?
I'm willing to wait a little bit longer.... ain't costin' me nothin'.

Everybody wants you to get a pin or two. The bravado, the hiring and the walk back of bold statements by DP is the problem. Be cautious with a bit of hint of pessimism.

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#2187 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Roostking:

Everybody wants you to get a pin or two. The bravado, the hiring and the walk back of bold statements by DP is the problem. Be cautious with a bit of hint of pessimism.

So I went from screwed out of $9500 to maybe getting a couple machines? I can actually be a bit optimistic.

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#2188 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

11y 106K 8,566 2

Quoted from Fulltilt:

So I went from screwed out of $9500 to maybe getting a couple machines? I can actually be a bit optimistic.

And you and others deserve to be made whole. No pessimism there.

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#2189 5 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 128K 3,011 13 1

Skeptical right from the start. Even more skepticism with their acknowledgment of delay.

Hope for the best but expect nothing.

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#2190 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?

I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.

But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

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#2191 5 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,555

Quoted from iceman44:

Jpop is bad karma. Period.
Only the lawyers win.

I guarantee you on some laywers' forum there's a whole 500 page thread of people bitching about unpaid JPOP legal bills.

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#2192 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from benheck:

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?
I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.
But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

I think there's more to it than that.

TBL BoM will cost an absolute buttload, even if they go with an ordinary translite and glass, ordinary aspect LCD instead of custom 4 : 1 aspect, and remove the bowling mech entirely. Mueller's repeatedly talked about doing things cheaper. Would also need to be ported to what ever systems they're using, and unclear if Koen would be interested in helping them port the code.

Alien could probably do with further physical refinement as well as being ported to their systems, the game coder now works for AP, no clue if the system coder would help them. No indication that PBros will sell the rights. No indication that Fox would re-license the title after such an injurious mess. Also no indication as to whether they are or will be set up for wide bodies.

I think both could cost more than a new title to develop, particularly Alien, and then there are so many people burned on both. Neither has a bunch of dubious patents of potential interest, either, unlike JPop.

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#2193 5 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,574 11

On that note, why not fix/finish Magic Girl? I personally think that looked like it could have been great. Guessing many of the same hurdles as the others though (aside from license).

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#2194 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from Zablon:

On that note, why not fix/finish Magic Girl? I personally think that looked like it could have been great.

What about it could have been great? The layout didn't work at all, mechs were all broken or missing, it had all sorts of weird parts (like the bizarre cabinet), and Zombie Yeti's artwork was nothing like as good as his latter stuff has been -JPop was 'directing' and it was his first experience with pinball.

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#2195 5 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,574 11

Quoted from rubberducks:

What about it could have been great? The layout didn't work at all, mechs were all broken or missing, it had all sorts of weird parts (like the bizarre cabinet), and Zombie Yeti's artwork was nothing like as good as his latter stuff has been -JPop was 'directing' and it was his first experience with pinball.

Did the 'finish/fix' part not come through?

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#2196 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from Zablon:

Did the 'finish/fix' part not come through?

So the whole thing was a pile of crap, and theme was just a bad amalgamation of ToM & CV, but it 'could be great' ... makes sense.

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#2197 5 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,574 11

Quoted from rubberducks:

So the whole thing was a pile of crap, and theme was just a bad amalgamation of ToM & CV, but it 'could be great' ... makes sense.

Sorry, I'll let you get back to your echo chamber.

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#2198 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,469 10

Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.

I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.

That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.

But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.

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#2199 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,897 28 49

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I guarantee you on some laywers' forum there's a whole 500 page thread of people bitching about unpaid JPOP legal bills.

And why on earth they took the case in the first place

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#2200 5 years ago
 
LRP

lpeters82

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 132K 5,289 8

Quoted from benheck:

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?
I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.
But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

I'd start saving pennies if Spooky ever committed to building The Big Lebowski. With that said, does Spooky have the capacity for a much larger market share, without expanding to a more urban area? They went from what what 150 to 300 to 500 to 500. I certainly could be wrong, but a run of 750 or 1000 seems near capacity in Benton.

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