Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from Viggin900:Red Flags for me was releasing to everyone all the titles of your games for the next 3 years. Who does that?
Gotta stop all the Food Truck buyers from being pissed that had they waited they could have bought Title TBD.
Quoted from Viggin900:Red Flags for me was releasing to everyone all the titles of your games for the next 3 years. Who does that?
Listing the titles was the easy part. Maybe deeproot should have said,” we could make more games this year than any manufacturer ever has, but instead we choose to give you nothing.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Gotta stop all the Food Truck buyers from being pissed that had they waited they could have bought Title TBD.
Recently revealed that title TBD will be called, Soup Du Jour.
One of my favorite cringe moments (The video should go to the exact spot):
The Emphasized "My Design", talking about the backbox....
Quoted from DudeRegular:One of my favorite cringe moments (The video should go to the exact spot):
The Emphasized "My Design", talking about the backbox....
All that to sell 100 games. So sad.
Quoted from Viggin900:Red Flags for me was releasing to everyone all the titles of your games for the next 3 years. Who does that?
The red flag was back when this company and their leader promised something when none of them, especially the leader had not ever in the past delivered anything.
I cannot understand why people continue to give money to these pinball start ups and their slick salesman when they have never demonstrated the ability or capacity to deliver a product.
Quoted from Tonic67:I cannot understand why people continue to give money to these pinball start ups and their slick salesman when they have never demonstrated the ability or capacity to deliver a product.
FOMO is a large part of it. The chance at a potentially exclusive & limited item is another.
Quoted from ForceFlow:FOMO is a large part of it. The chance at a potentially exclusive & limited item is another.
Lots of new collectors the past few years too, many with money to burn during this pandemic.
I get why people fell for it in the past. Lack of options and not knowing better. But these days? 
Quoted from TreyBo69:Lots of new collectors the past few years too, many with money to burn during this pandemic.
I get why people fell for it in the past. Lack of options and not knowing better. But these days?
The heart wants what the heart wants, it's why so many old women get scammed on holiday and give away there life savings to there new "toy boy".It does not matter how many red flags there is or how many time you warn these people they will hand over the cash every time sadly just human nature 
Quoted from Tonic67:The red flag was back when this company and their leader promised something when none of them, especially the leader had not ever in the past delivered anything.
I cannot understand why people continue to give money to these pinball start ups and their slick salesman when they have never demonstrated the ability or capacity to deliver a product.
Many are so desperate to have the new, rare, shiny. They are desperate to be the cool kid for a time.
That and the, “it’s the next Big Bang bar”!
That lightning has struck and will likely not ever strike again.
Quoted from Beechwood:I asked on the other thread, but apparently wasn't taken seriously.
If three people backed out and asked for a refund, can I take their pre-order spot by sending a deposit?
You want to send money to these guys? On purpose?
Quoted from DudeRegular:You want to send money to these guys? On purpose?
Actually, just want to know if they are willing to fill the vacated spots?
YOLO, combined with FOMO. It is a beautiful thing.
Quoted from Beechwood:I asked on the other thread, but apparently wasn't taken seriously.
If three people backed out and asked for a refund, can I take their pre-order spot by sending a deposit?
I can't imagine deeproot is even responding to messages at this point. But as a test, go ahead and try contacting them and asking them your question.
Second, with the mountain of red flags that have been pointed out, why in the world would you want to send any money to deeproot?
If you really think RAZA is going to be released, I'd say let someone else take the risk and wait until someone resells one. It probably wouldn't take too long.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Second, with the mountain of red flags that have been pointed out, why in the world would you want to send any money to deeproot?
I would be privy to inside information.
Quoted from Beechwood:I asked on the other thread, but apparently wasn't taken seriously.
If three people backed out and asked for a refund, can I take their pre-order spot by sending a deposit?
Quoted from TreyBo69:Gotta stop all the Food Truck buyers from being pissed that had they waited they could have bought Title TBD.
Don't you dare try to claim Title TBD #1. I will fight you.
Quoted from Beechwood:If the answer is no, then it is true they have no intention of making these games.
This is actually an interesting angle.
Quoted from gambit3113:This is actually an interesting angle.
And if the answer is yes, and they take a deposit then (at this point if they know they can't produce the game) it becomes criminal.
Quoted from Beechwood:And if the answer is yes, and they take a deposit then (at this point if they know they can't produce the game) it becomes criminal.
Your secret sting operation may not be so secret when posting in the thread about the company you are looking to run said sting operation on.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Lots of new collectors the past few years too, many with money to burn during this pandemic.
I get why people fell for it in the past. Lack of options and not knowing better. But these days?
I pulled this quote from a year ago in this thread. Seems apt still. It seems a segment of collectors believe that Stern pinball machines are somehow subpar, and that Bally/Williams had some sort of incredible magic that Stern doesn't. Anyone who comes in and says, "Hey, Stern Sucks, I'm gonna give you Bally/WMS" instantly has these people hooked. And what better way to do that than hire JPOP, who worked at WMS. People will 100% turn off all their bullshit detectors off if you're giving them what they want to hear.
Quoted from Richthofen:People love bullshit. They love it so much! they love getting sold a big heaping pile of bullshit because ordinary life is just so fucking boring.
Robert is a straight up old fashioned bullshit artist. Talks a huge game and raises a ton of money and two or more years later all he has to show is walking back all his braggadocio and resetting expectations. He wasn't wrong back then, you just misunderstood that when he said "cheaper than stern", clearly his tea leaves meant "more expensive than stern". There's no amount of lean-agile process that will make up for a potential 10 million dollar hole they have to dig themselves out of. And you can expect if they're actually going to make things next year they're going to have to expend millions more in tooling, insurance, staff, utility cost... I don't expect Deeproot can continue to sell shares forever.
I never understood the "Stern is garbage / WMS is amazing" bullshit. Stern Jurassic Park is better than any WMS game from the 90s. Most of the things people really want is the nostalgic feeling, the "magic" of being 12 years old again and playing Addams Family for the firs time. But that's not a feeling that comes from WMS being so much better than Stern. It's a feeling that our brains generate due to novel experiences, and being 12...
Quoted from DudeRegular:Your secret sting operation may not be so secret when posting in the thread about the company you are looking to run said sting operation on.
Yeah. An insane narcissistic sue-happy lawyer would watch this thread like a hawk, waiting to pounce on employers to sue.
Quoted from Tonic67:The red flag was back when this company and their leader promised something when none of them, especially the leader had not ever in the past delivered anything.
I cannot understand why people continue to give money to these pinball start ups and their slick salesman when they have never demonstrated the ability or capacity to deliver a product.
/\ this..
Look at every successful company, they didn't start out guns a blazing.
Chuck Emery - We love pinball, let's start a podcast. now start out building 150 AMH pinball games.
Gary Stern - I'm in the coin-op business as a salesman. Let's build conversion kits for existing Stern/Bally games, then I'll start data east and release laser war with existing technology.
Jersey Jack - I routed games, then I started a coin-op sales business. Now that I've cut my teeth, let me start a pinball company
American Pinball - We already manufacture circuit boards, this is right up our wheelhouse.
Chicago Gaming - We've been building pinball and arcade cabinets for decades. Let's reverse engineer an existing pinball, and then another, and then another.. Eventually we'll build an original title after we feel confident.
Dutch Pinball - Let's not design a pinball as our first project. Let's take an existing one and update the software. THEN build a pinball from the ground up.
Deeproot - I wear many hats, pinball and manufacturing is easy. I'm gonna build more pinballs than any company in history = FAIL
Quoted from Beechwood:And if the answer is yes, and they take a deposit then (at this point if they know they can't produce the game) it becomes criminal.
That reminds me of a story involving Dutch Pinball. There was plenty of doubt swirling about whether TBL would be produced. One customer was traveling nearby for work and he started texting Barry and Jaap that he wanted a factory visit since they were in production. He kept just missing meeting up with them before the plans would be changed. He’d had enough and decided to show up unannounced at the factory and go inside, since the google address was published.
So he did, and the staff had never heard of DP nor TBL pinball. The next conversation with DP was interesting and the Pinsider (wish I could remember whom it was) still wanted to physically meet these guys. In subsequent attempts he’d ask to meet and was being ghosted. So he began contacting Barry or Jaap posing as a new customer with cash. He soon found that his texts were getting responses and there was a desire by DP to accept the money and a willingness to meetup.
The jig was up when he confronted DP and explained whom he was and asking them why nothing was happening at their factory. He never did meet them but the curtain had been pulled back and that was but one of the red flags for their customers. That didn’t kill DP and they continue to limp along today and with most of the EA’s still owed a game. But if you deal with people that willingly cut corners, skirt the law, ripoff customers and lie about it the whole time, chances are high that you will become a victim of the con.
Quoted from Beechwood:And if the answer is yes, and they take a deposit then (at this point if they know they can't produce the game) it becomes criminal.
They’ve stated it’s too late for refunds and they also stated a while back that there’s a supposed waiting list thatvwould be filled once games were built and there were extras. So the answer to your question I would say is ‘no’
Quoted from Beechwood:I would be privy to inside information.
I'd guess there is no inside information. One pre order person posted it's been crickets when he inquired.
Quoted from Stemmy:I emailed them last week. All I've heard is crickets.
Then you have couple others say they are getting some information. Which they imply they are not sharing that gives them hope I guess 
I'd trust the former rather than the latter.
Quoted from Richthofen:Anyone who comes in and says, "Hey, Stern Sucks, I'm gonna give you Bally/WMS" instantly has these people hooked. And what better way to do that than hire JPOP, who worked at WMS.
The weird thing is that Stern has had most of the B/W talent for quite some time. Ritchie, Lawlor, Nordman, Freres, Gomez, Eddy, Sullivan, Sheats. Some have left, but plenty are still there. Sure they have their issues, but Stern kinda is the current B/W.
Quoted from DudeRegular:Your secret sting operation may not be so secret when posting in the thread about the company you are looking to run said sting operation on.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Quoted from Richthofen:Stern Jurassic Park is better than any WMS game from the 90s.
pajamakid (resized).jpegQuoted from Beechwood:If the answer is no, then it is true they have no intention of making these games.
I know that deeproot said that they are no longer going to make any extra games to sell. And for some reason, I got the impression that they weren't that interested in letting waitlist people in. Because if they've got a waitlist, then why not just make all of them games.
This whole line of thinking is of course predicated on deeproot actually making the games. Which is certainly a big question mark.
Quoted from DakotaMike:I know that deeproot said that they are no longer going to make any extra games to sell. And for some reason, I got the impression that they weren't that interested in letting waitlist people in. Because if they've got a waitlist, then why not just make all of them games.
This whole line of thinking is of course predicated on deeproot actually making the games. Which is certainly a big question mark.
At this point, deeproot could be happy to end up with as few raza obligations as possible so they can get to surefire smash hits Food Truck and Title TBD sooner.
Quoted from Rarehero:JP Prem is my first Stern Spike game....I really haven't dug a Stern since Metallica. So, take that for what it's worth. JP is pretty dang great.
Hey, you guys know I love me some Stern. But JP blows every Bally/Williams title out of the water? Come on.
Quoted from Richthofen:I never understood the "Stern is garbage / WMS is amazing" bullshit. Stern Jurassic Park is better than any WMS game from the 90s. Most of the things people really want is the nostalgic feeling, the "magic" of being 12 years old again and playing Addams Family for the firs time. But that's not a feeling that comes from WMS being so much better than Stern. It's a feeling that our brains generate due to novel experiences, and being 12...
I like Stern's games, but WMS, 90's pins are amazing! That's not bullshit, that's just a fact. There's a reason they're still demanding a high price and it's not just nostalgia. They are well built, well designed games with finished code, fantastic artwork, and excellent theme integration.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:At this point, deeproot could be happy to end up with as few raza obligations as possible so they can get to surefire smash hits Food Truck and Title TBD sooner.
Heck yeah, gimme food truck! Where do I send my money?
Quoted from gambit3113:Hey, you guys know I love me some Stern. But JP blows every Bally/Williams title out of the water? Come on.
Ok, maybe that’s a bit too far - but it’s a welcome friend in a B/W lineup. It has everything you’d expect in a B/W game. Awesome smooth shots and unique flow, ramps that feel awesome & lots of them, an animating mech with lots of personality, easily understood goals & progression to start with deep nuanced rules to keep you going for the long term.
Quoted from gambit3113:But JP blows every Bally/Williams title out of the water?
That's a bit hyperbolic, but yes, I do think it's better than all the WMS games I cut my teeth on 20+ years ago.
I think current games are better than the 90's B/W too and people are just chasing that magic feeling or just going with the hype of those games being the GOAT. Sorry, I have more fun on most newer games than even the best 90's games. Thats not to say they are bad, they are amazing. I also wish newer games had as many exciting new mechs and packed playfields as the 90s games, but overall I enjoy the good newer games more than the best 90's games. I'd rather play EHOH than TZ, AF, MM, or any of the other top tier games.
Modern Sterns are better for home collectors due to depth of gameplay. Bally/WMS are better for location play for novice wow factor (although a Stern Pro with barely anything mechanical going on is great from an operator's maintenance perspective).
Quoted from yancy:That's a bit hyperbolic, but yes, I do think it's better than all the WMS games I cut my teeth on 20+ years ago.
I only have time on a Pro, and it was fun. But seemed a little too linear.
Quoted from Honch:I like Stern's games, but WMS, 90's pins are amazing! That's not bullshit, that's just a fact. There's a reason they're still demanding a high price and it's not just nostalgia. They are well built, well designed games with finished code, fantastic artwork, and excellent theme integration.
I mean, I love them too! MM, AFM, Even B titles like Shadow etc are great. I would love to have them in my collection since I grew up with them, and I love playing them. TAF, Funhouse and TZ especially. But realistically:
Stern games are cheaper than 90s WMS games in almost all cases
Stern games have deeper rules in almost all cases
Stern games are more reliable in almost all cases
Stern games shoot faster and have snappier flippers out of the box
Stern games have LCD screens, bright LED lights, modern themes, etc.
I have a big hole in my collection; I have no games from 1990 -> 2000. I have Taxi and Sorcerer, and grand prix and aztec, and three newer sterns. The value just isn't there for those games right now. It sucks, man would a Funhouse look good in my lineup (and restore a Pat Lawlor title in my collection, I sold Earthshaker a few years ago). But if I buy a funhouse for 5K or more, I am really bumping into Stern Pro price territory, and those games are just gonna last longer in my collection and have more to do.
Quoted from gambit3113:I only have time on a Pro, and it was fun. But seemed a little too linear.
I sometimes question people who think JP isn't pretty linear. The map does not have that many permutations to it and isn't much of a focus. It's neat but some people make it out to be more deep than it is.
It's not like choosing minor villain in Batman 66 or having a character select like GoT, Stern Star Wars, or JJP POTC. Those can really change how the game plays. Stern Star Trek is one of my favorites with how you can fill out your mode grid for rewards or repeat modes to add permeant shot multipliers on particular shots.
Maybe I just haven't spent enough time with Jurassic Park to get that level of nuance...
Quoted from TreyBo69:I sometimes question people who think JP isn't pretty linear. The map does not have that many permutations to it and isn't much of a focus. It's neat but some people make it out to be more deep than it is.
It's not like choosing minor villain in Batman 66 or having a character select like GoT, Stern Star Wars, or JJP POTC. Those can really change how the game plays. Stern Star Trek is one of my favorites with how you can fill out your mode grid for rewards or repeat modes to add permeant shot multipliers on particular shots.
Maybe I just haven't spent enough time with Jurassic Park to get that level of nuance...
Please stop talking about actual games and gameplay.
That is NOT what the Deeproot thread is all about!
Quoted from Beechwood:Please stop talking about actual games and gameplay.
That is NOT what the Deeproot thread is all about!
Idk, I enjoy discussing pinball design in general and all deeproot did was design a bunch of nonsense.
I stopped following the deeproot threads a while back, so sorry if this has been covered, but are the people who will be left hanging if deeproot implodes all former JPop customers who took the deeproot credit offer to drop their claims against JPop? Or did deeproot somehow convince people to send in new money at some point over the past few years?
[EDIT: Just looked at the pre-order thread and saw that people were in fact giving deeproot pre-order money within the past year. WTF?]
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Heck yeah, gimme food truck! Where do I send my money?
They should re-theme it to Dumpster Dive at this point.
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