Quoted from Viggin900:Uncanny!
[quoted image]
I don't get it? One guy sends rockets into space, the other guys just sends $$$ down the shitter?
Quoted from Viggin900:Uncanny!
[quoted image]
I don't get it? One guy sends rockets into space, the other guys just sends $$$ down the shitter?
Quoted from TreyBo69:a cost attractive proposition for most manufacturers
Yeah, the "Give me a million dollars and we will give you a pinball design" recipe is hard to swallow... you can pay a lot less getting a design built in house as long as you have all the principles in house.
Quoted from Bublehead:Yeah, the "Give me a million dollars and we will give you a pinball design" recipe is hard to swallow... you can pay a lot less getting a design built in house as long as you have all the principles in house.
Actually the commonly cited figure is about a million dollars for Stern to develop a game. Gary has said so himself
You can absolutely do it for less. Ben Heck can chime in with a rough estimate of how much AMH cost to make, although he was probably paying himself near minimum wage and pushed himself incredibly hard to accomplish it.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Actually the commonly cited figure is about a million dollars for Stern to develop a game. Gary has said so himself
You can absolutely do it for less. Ben Heck can chime in with a rough estimate of how much AMH cost to make, although he was probably paying himself near minimum wage and pushed himself incredibly hard to accomplish it.
I believe it was roughly $50,000.
Quoted from Roostking:I believe it was roughly $50,000.
I think that was Spooky's startup capital for a game that was already designed.
I know I've heard Scott Danesi say TNA basically paid minimum wage when he designed it, got it production ready, and provided long term support.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Agree with basically all of this except the part about the goal being to never build anything and instead get acquired. It's a reasonable assumption based on how time and money has been spent, but I don't think it's the case. I just think he has no fucking idea what he's doing.
It's possible he was just batshit crazy - but there are plenty of deliberate actions and comments made that suggest he was trying to build a disruptor company made to be attractive to people outside the current industry more than he was focused on actually making deeproot into a long run pinball company.
Quoted from TreyBo69:This. Robert was consistent in that he planned to manufacture
If was trying to get bought out, why would he have talked mad trash about all of the manufacturers who might have been interested in his wares?
Shipping some product as 'proof' of concept and to establish your product's demand is not the same thing as establishing the fundamentals of your company to be a sustainable business going forward. I don't doubt he thought he would ship some stuff... but I don't think that was ever his model to actually make money doing that. It was proven with napkin math YEARS ago that the kind of run rate he was going on would never be sustainable in the pinball market.
He was spending like a VC-invested startup - He was more interested in disruptive changes and 'innovation' then he was in things like time to market, margins, mass production, etc.
He wasn't building a company that would take down Stern and everyone else... he was trying to build a catalog of stuff, ideas, and customer demand that would appear interesting to someone bigger. I still believe he was trying to take pinball as a subject, and take it into other markets vs the one that Stern and JJP have defined to date.
Quoted from flynnibus:Shipping some product as 'proof' of concept and to establish your product's demand is not the same thing as establishing the fundamentals of your company to be a sustainable business going forward. I don't doubt he thought he would ship some stuff... but I don't think that was ever his model to actually make money doing that. It was proven with napkin math YEARS ago that the kind of run rate he was going on would never be sustainable in the pinball market.
He was spending like a VC-invested startup - He was more interested in disruptive changes and 'innovation' then he was in things like time to market, margins, mass production, etc.
He wasn't building a company that would take down Stern and everyone else... he was trying to build a catalog of stuff, ideas, and customer demand that would appear interesting to someone bigger. I still believe he was trying to take pinball as a subject, and take it into other markets vs the one that Stern and JJP have defined to date.
Don't get me wrong, he's a bad businessman who approached it like a silicon valley wanna be darling. "look at our iphone app, look at these online services with recurrent revenue streams, look at our patents, look at our other monetization plans, look at our ambitions in other media and games". He also did poor research into the industry, the consumers, and how the sausage is actually made
But again, I think you guys are giving him too much credit with trying to hoodwink some VCs like he's the next Juicero (an over-engineered, over-priced niche product targeted to wealthy families that crashed in flames once broader scrutiny was applied - although they actually produced and delivered products to customers)
I point to him trying to buy Spooky Pinball in the past as him being serious about being a manufacturer. I don't know if he would have been in it for the long haul, but he was trying to make a real company to sell at the very least.
I spent about 10k dev on AMH.
Royalties, after taxes, yeah if I back divided the time probably could have made the same just doing a second job. Still. Paid for a third of my house and started Spooky which now employees what, 30 people and creates a lot of wealth.
JPOP is just a black hole money vacuum. He sucks, and has proven it time and time again. It's time he's expunged from the industry.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Don't get me wrong, he's a bad businessman who approached it like a silicon valley wanna be darling. "look at our iphone app, look at these online services with recurrent revenue streams, look at our patents, look at our other monetization plans, look at our ambitions in other media and games". He also did poor research into the industry, the consumers, and how the sausage is actually made
But again, I think you guys are giving him too much credit with trying to hoodwink some VCs like he's the next Juicero (an over-engineered, over-priced niche product targeted to wealthy families that crashed in flames once broader scrutiny was applied - although they actually produced and delivered products to customers)I point to him trying to buy Spooky Pinball in the past as him being serious about being a manufacturer. I don't know if he would have been in it for the long haul, but he was trying to make a real company to sell at the very least.
Buying spooky could have simply been a way to establish credibility with an existing product. A way to get some of the checkboxes marked without anything but a stroke of the pen. He could have also changed his plan between those points.
As for 'hoodwinking' - the guy comes from the world of selling insurance and securities... that's pretty much status quo for him to take some assets, bundle them up, and try to pitch them as worthy of buying.
Quoted from benheck:The "other thread" has moved into Bargaining stage.
Just popped in there for the first time today. Looks like some have taken one step back to the Anger stage.
Quoted from yancy:Just popped in there for the first time today. Looks like some have taken one step back to the Anger stage.
I'd advocate for folks to take a step back and stop aggravating those who pre-ordered in that thread. We have a big enough playground here.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I'd advocate for folks to take a step back and stop aggravating those who pre-ordered in that thread.
Agreed, I have no business posting there.
Quoted from yancy:Agreed, I have no business posting there.
Yancy with restraint?? Where was that when you snatched our 80$ playing Dolly last night! Lol.
Quoted from Yelobird:Yancy with restraint?? Where was that when you snatched our 80$ playing Dolly last night! Lol.
That's a high stake game of Dolly!
I love me some Dolly Parton. One of the games the wife demands to stay in the house.
I even setup a home automation to yell "it's Dolly time!" and it plays her music and turns the room lights all pink, red, and purple
Quoted from mrgone:Does anyone here remember the pinsider that kept posting, I’ve seen magic girl, I’ve played it! It’s 90% complete!
He kept shouting this from the rooftops until pintasia showed up. Looked at the game. Got an outside contractor to do emergency ramp builds, the team spent several sleepless nights transporting, and working on the prototype just to get a basic flipping game to work at the northwest show.
You all remember that? I sure do.
As soon as the pintasia team outed the mouth, he slithered away and closed his pinside account.
Now we have the same thing going on again over at the jpop suck fest thread.
Rarehero is completely correct. Deeproot is a cult.
Everyone that went in on this obvious scam deserves what they get.
The only folks that aren’t deserving are the original zidware claimants.
From then on the evidence was clear.
Jpop is a fraud.
He can’t design shit.
And he keeps conning others that he is the real deal.
He’s not.
#endjpopforgood.
I do remember that quite well. What a shit show. And the Pinsider that you are referring to refused to disclose the location of the MG that they had at the show. There was a lot of speculation regarding who took possession of it. I don't know if it ever made it's way back to Zidware/Pintasia or who wound up with that one.
Quoted from Yelobird:Yancy with restraint??
Time and a place for everything.
Quoted from Yelobird:Where was that when you snatched our 80$ playing Dolly last night!
You almost caught me! One 5x drop target away.
Makes up for beating the grand champ on Stranger Things and still getting beat by almost double in the same game.
Quoted from TreyBo69:That's a high stake game of Dolly!
I put a hundo on the glass, but no takers.
Quoted from yancy:I put a hundo on the glass, but no takers.
We let it rain on Dolly. High stakes fun so long as you don’t rough house her. She has a temperamental tilt on her. Fun time.
Quoted from Yelobird:We let it rain on Dolly. High stakes fun so long as you don’t rough house her. She has a temperamental tilt on her. Fun time.
You two take it to a private room, don't derail this thread.
Quoted from jellikit:You two take it to a private room, don't derail this thread.
Or at least post some pics of your pets.
Quoted from RobT:I do remember that quite well. What a shit show. And the Pinsider that you are referring to refused to disclose the location of the MG that they had at the show. There was a lot of speculation regarding who took possession of it. I don't know if it ever made it's way back to Zidware/Pintasia or who wound up with that one.
That was a made up piece of drama and eventually went back to Jpop in Chicago with parts of a tin coke can keeping it together! I was merely in no rush to send since I was footing the bills. A very good friend, from the west coast, basically had to drive to Chicago and pry it away from the clutches of Jpop to get it exposed and there was no way he was driving it back after we went through that piece of pretty crap!
Quoted from Roostking:I don't get it? One guy sends rockets into space, the other guys just sends $$$ down the shitter?
One guy engineers rockets for space, the other sends engineers kicking rocks.
Rare brought this up years ago but John reminds me of Richard Williams and "Thief and the Cobbler"
I loathe comparing Williams to JPOP as the former actually had a long and storied career in animation. Made maybe the best Christmas Carol adaptation as an animated holiday special in the 70's.
Lots of trippy visuals and cool nightmare fuel. Sound familiar?
Anyway, he had this decades-in-develop dream movie. Worked on it alongside his pay work (so not like JPOP) After getting an Oscar for "Roger Rabbit", got full funding from WB and then entered full production "JPOP MODE".... but only for 3 years (not 10+)
Here's the relevant part of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thief_and_the_Cobbler#:~:text=On%2013%20May,studio%20executives.%5B37%5D
In the REAL WORLD and especially entertainment (which pinball is) you waste enough time and you are removed from control. In the case of "Thief" they cobbled together what they had and dumped it into theaters. Much like Bill's Pintasia effort with Magic Girl.
That's what's missing with The Jpop Story. AN END. Somehow he is allowed to keep going, And going... And goooooing. Never truly held to task for his mistakes. Never an absolution for him or closure for his customers. No B/W to say STOP, yank WCS away and have a more talented person finish it.
Just a never ending... state of unending.
I would say it's like Sisyphus. Condemned to roll a boulder up a hill forever. But Sisyphus wasn't vacuuming millions of dollars while he did it.
Quoted from benheck:Rare brought this up years ago but John reminds me of Richard Williams and "Thief and the Cobbler"
I loathe comparing Williams to JPOP as the former actually had a long and storied career in animation. Made maybe the best Christmas Carol adaptation as an animated holiday special in the 70's.Lots of trippy visuals and cool nightmare fuel. Sound familiar?
Anyway, he had this decades-in-develop dream movie. Worked on it alongside his pay work (so not like JPOP) After getting an Oscar for "Roger Rabbit", got full funding from WB and then entered full production "JPOP MODE".... but only for 3 years (not 10+)
Here's the relevant part of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thief_and_the_Cobbler#:~:text=On%2013%20May,studio%20executives.%5B37%5D
In the REAL WORLD and especially entertainment (which pinball is) you waste enough time and you are removed from control. In the case of "Thief" they cobbled together what they had and dumped it into theaters. Much like Bill's Pintasia effort with Magic Girl.
That's what's missing with The Jpop Story. AN END. Somehow he is allowed to keep going, And going... And goooooing. Never truly held to task for his mistakes. Never an absolution for him or closure for his customers. No B/W to say STOP, yank WCS away and have a more talented person finish it.
Just a never ending... state of unending.
Quoted from wcbrandes:That was a made up piece of drama and eventually went back to Jpop in Chicago with parts of a tin coke can keeping it together! I was merely in no rush to send since I was footing the bills. A very good friend, from the west coast, basically had to drive to Chicago and pry it away from the clutches of Jpop to get it exposed and there was no way he was driving it back after we went through that piece of pretty crap!
Haha, good times Bill!
Quoted from mrgone:The thief and the cobbler is one of my all time favorite animated films.
Wait. Were you the one with a dog named Yum Yum?
Quoted from benheck:Wait. Were you the one with a dog named Yum Yum?
That me over here. We named her after a Rasberry Kolch beer made by denver beer
One more Robert interview!
This one's probably the least known because it's not a written one readable on TWIP or an audio one recorded with podcasters. It's a worst of both worlds hybrid: written q&a read by podcasters.
Unfortunately, this means it won't add to the treasure trove of content for cutting together Mueller audio gems
That said, it probably has some good stuff, so please enjoy hearing the loserkid guys gush over Bobby Balls in November 2019 (I think it was after the disastrous reveal that they finally turned on RM and DR for good).
Interview part begins around nine minutes in.
Quoted from gambit3113:One guy engineers rockets for space, the other sends engineers kicking rocks.
One guy shoots for the moon, the other guy will be landing on it.
Quoted from benheck:Rare brought this up years ago but John reminds me of Richard Williams and "Thief and the Cobbler"
I loathe comparing Williams to JPOP as the former actually had a long and storied career in animation. Made maybe the best Christmas Carol adaptation as an animated holiday special in the 70's.Lots of trippy visuals and cool nightmare fuel. Sound familiar?
Anyway, he had this decades-in-develop dream movie. Worked on it alongside his pay work (so not like JPOP) After getting an Oscar for "Roger Rabbit", got full funding from WB and then entered full production "JPOP MODE".... but only for 3 years (not 10+)
Here's the relevant part of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thief_and_the_Cobbler#:~:text=On%2013%20May,studio%20executives.%5B37%5D
In the REAL WORLD and especially entertainment (which pinball is) you waste enough time and you are removed from control. In the case of "Thief" they cobbled together what they had and dumped it into theaters. Much like Bill's Pintasia effort with Magic Girl.
That's what's missing with The Jpop Story. AN END. Somehow he is allowed to keep going, And going... And goooooing. Never truly held to task for his mistakes. Never an absolution for him or closure for his customers. No B/W to say STOP, yank WCS away and have a more talented person finish it.
Just a never ending... state of unending.
I would say it's like Sisyphus. Condemned to roll a boulder up a hill forever. But Sisyphus wasn't vacuuming millions of dollars while he did it.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:One more Robert interview!
This one's probably the least known because it's not a written one readable on TWIP or an audio one recorded with podcasters. It's a worst of both worlds hybrid: written q&a read by podcasters.
Unfortunately, this means it won't add to the treasure trove of content for cutting together Mueller audio gems
That said, it probably has some good stuff, so please enjoy hearing the loserkid guys gush over Bobby Balls in November 2019 (I think it was after the disastrous reveal that they finally turned on RM and DR for good).
https://m.soundcloud.com/loserkidpinballpodcast/ep-21-loserkid-emails-deeproot-robert-mueller-responds
Interview part begins around nine minutes in.
Oh man. Lots of comedy here. The guys should do an anniversary of this interview. Listen back to Robert and their responses and react with two years of hindsight.
An interesting (and insightful) post from 9 years ago, followed by a post based on obviously bad info:
Quoted from RTS:Do people have money waiting on an unfinished MG while money is taken on BHZA?
Wouldn't this be a concern?
Quoted from iceman44:In fact they do....some that went to check on status of MG and were very satisfied dropped the deposit on BHZA...
This was entertaining too, as Greg was actually JOKING about how the pin might not be made until 2020.
Quoted from Rarehero:What are they gonna do, take you to court? They start up with that - the game won't come out till 2020 lol
Revisiting old BHZA/Zidware threads can be entertaining!
Think it was in the Pintasia days, I searched my email re RAZA and found one of John's first mentions of BHZA.
Can't copy paste because I have a 5 year auto purge but something like "Yeah John BHZA sounds cool but shouldn't you finish MG first? Need help with that?" was summer 2011 I wanna say.
Lesson #1: Don’t hire a tinkerer if you expect them to deliver a product. For a tinkerer the end goal is the tinkering itself, not the actual product.
Lesson #2: If you are a tinkerer and ever expect to get anything done (which is kinda the goal of any business) you had better damn well hire someone that can manage things and keep you on task.
Lesson #3: If you only realize you need a manager as a result of seeing the bank account dwindle towards zero then it is already too late…. your company is done for.
Lesson #4: If your company is done for, Hail Mary attempts at putting out the tinkerers efforts will not succeed because they are likely not close to being done.
Lesson #5: Before you throw the Hail Mary, close the company and at least that way conserve some cash.
Robert spoke of me specifically in his last/final Kaneda interview.
He pulled out one of his ol’reliables…where he questions why I would do something or say something that may put the employment of my excoworkers in jeopardy. Like…if I say something true…it would shut down his company and my buddies would lose their jobs. “It’s your fault I hit you!”
Nice logic RM. Trust me. It’s your actions…not mine.
Quoted from Scandell:Robert spoke of me specifically in his last/final Kaneda interview.
He pulled out one of his ol’reliables…where he questions why I would do something or say something that may put the employment of my excoworkers in jeopardy. Like…if I say something true…it would shut down his company and my buddies would lose their jobs.
Nice logic RM. Trust me. It’s your actions…not mine.
How dare you expect to be paid as agreed upon /s
Quoted from TreyBo69:How dare you expect to be paid as agreed upon /s
Haha exactly. I think it was “If you tell people about me not paying you money I owe you and furloughing you…it hurts YOU more than it hurts me”
Quoted from RobT:This was entertaining too, as Greg was actually JOKING about how the pin might not be made until 2020
Holy moly. Honestly I have no idea how people stomach being on these rides with shady people for so long…The Dutch TBL saga started in 2014, and after their lies about production came to light in 2017, I was done….maybe that’s just me - I can’t allow myself to be tethered to bad people for the sake of a pinball machine. Had I stuck with it, I would have received my game in 2020. I believe in forgiveness & redemption…they’ll only get mine once every EA gets their game…but they’ve at least apologized and are attempting to make things right. Jpop had never given a real apology to his customers or the community…and guys like RM never apologize.
Quoted from Rarehero:Jpop had never given a real apology
I'm with you there Rare... when RM perp walked JPop into Expo, the jaw drops hitting the floor around the place were audible, as well as a few gasps from the ladies. My first thought was a short quip from Arlo Guthrie- "you got a lot of damn gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself"
I was standing there when some dude I didn't know (RM) walks by with the rest of the usual suspects and then that undeniable Tiny Tim doo sportin' idiot walks by and I am like punching my brother in the ribs and pointing and I said "In what universe would you, as JPop, would you EVER show your face at a pinball event right now without wearing kevlar long johns and Have a full security detail?" And we both busted up laughing and shaking our heads. Now the rest of the lineup, we agreed, gave some credence to the venture, however hiring JPop was definitely the first red flag out of the gate. Then RM opened his mouth. That was red flag two. Since then the hits just keep right on coming.
Quoted from Scandell:Haha exactly. I think it was “If you tell people about me not paying you money I owe you and furloughing you…it hurts YOU more than it hurts me”
Haha, I have a funny story about that kind of person that people from American Idol would know. The Constantine dude from American idol that finished like 5th or 6th his season was doing a play on (or just off, I don't remember, wasn't a fan) Broadway and wanted his website done or updated to promote his career. I knew the guy doing it and Constantine kept putting in demands, but never paying for the work. When finally confronted strongly after ignoring gentle reminders to pay, he was surprised he was being "hounded" about "the money thing."
Um, yeah. That's THE thing when you contract people to do work for you.
Quoted from Scandell:Haha exactly. I think it was “If you tell people about me not paying you money I owe you and furloughing you…it hurts YOU more than it hurts me”
Did you eventually get paid back everything you were owed?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Did you eventually get paid back everything you were owed?
Yes. I was all caught up promptly but only after I quit.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I'd advocate for folks to take a step back and stop aggravating those who pre-ordered in that thread. We have a big enough playground here.
Very much agreed. Well said
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/445?hl=robnotto and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.