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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#21001 2 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,877 28 49

Quoted from toyotaboy:

If that's the case, who's been funding deeproot pinball, Robert? And I still don't get WTF the 575 fund is. Is this an umbrella that covers multiple investments? Who's in charge to decide where the funds are invested, because if I were in charge of that I would have cut off the pinball division 2 years ago.

So much to unpack there. Been done in this voluminous thread in detail.

Complicated? If you think Robert can’t accomplish anything think again. Making pinball? Maybe

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#21002 2 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,877 28 49

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Here you go, my friend. Please have your legal eagle minion pull and upload the full records (zip via google drive, dropbox, filemail, whatever). A smattering of selected screenshots won't do as I appreciate the opportunity for a thorough review.
As soon as I've gotten the goods I'll make the agreed-upon profile adjustments![quoted image][quoted image]

That case got moved to Bexar county on venue issue.

I can find out what the current status is.

Btw, litigation is a long drawn out boring process designed to benefit the lawyers. Depos, discovery etc etc. Small % ever goes to trial

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#21003 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from iceman44:

That case got moved to Bexar county on venue issue.
I can find out what the current status is.
Btw, litigation is a long drawn out boring process designed to benefit the lawyers. Depos, discovery etc etc. Small % ever goes to trial

yup, the second screenshot is of the three cases in bexar

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#21004 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

I’ll just say, best of luck to preorders. Not like you get a choice in the matter since refunds are off the table now, but do not give them more money till there is the game in the back of a delivery truck!

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#21005 2 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,562 2

Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Have the remaining high profile employees on staff in pictures with playfields, cabinets, parts, work stations, etc. Do this the first week of August.

Why, to perpetuate the con? dr needs to go away.

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#21006 2 years ago
 
???

m00nmuppet

Pinside member

6y 82,400 817 106

"Pinball is easy."

These words are so immortalized now, the ultimate buffoon boast.

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#21007 2 years ago
 
DWF

Chalkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Chesterfield, VA

6y 69,550 2,971 18

Complete a pin in 5-10 days? John you took 4 years to build like 30 playfields you said would be done perpetually next week.

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#21008 2 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Truth gets bent and broken. I doubt there is any legal issues blocking their production capabilities. Why just last year…for TPF…

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#21009 2 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

Quoted from Scandell:

Truth gets bent and broken. I doubt there is any legal issues blocking their production capabilities. Why just last year…for TPF…

And this one time, at band camp...

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#21010 2 years ago
 
BAT

gonzo73

Pinside member

3y 94,550 2,596 20 100

Minus 3...
119 sold.
Does Robert really want to build only 119?
I don't think so.
He couldn't match Spooky when they were in a glorified shed, building 150 AMH.

If this Lawsuit talk is " real " , could Spooky finish 1750 UM/Halloween's before RAZA ships?
I think they might........

Congrats to the 3 clear headed folks who got refunds.

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#21011 2 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

Only real question now is what # of posts this thread will be at come January 2022 and the (maybe) next update

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#21012 2 years ago
 
DIE

underlord

Pinside+ Addict

14y 133K 9,043 49

Quoted from TreyBo69:

I’ll just say, best of luck to preorders. Not like you get a choice in the matter since refunds are off the table now, but do not give them more money till there is the game in the back of a delivery truck!

Whom in their right mind would ever keep paying? And who was silly enough to pay in full and ignored refund ‘window’ Bobby-boy imposed?

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#21013 2 years ago
 
NJM

NeilMcRae

Pinside+ Pro!

GB London

12y 147K 4,484 70 20

What a total shitshow for the poor suckers^wpinheads who have put money down on this. Basically a FU and we will tell you when the FU no longer applies.

The three cases listed about don't look like they would be the reason not to ship, so it must be all letters before action type shit.

lets hope he can "out legal" better than he can "out business" and "out manufacture".

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#21014 2 years ago
 
NJM

NeilMcRae

Pinside+ Pro!

GB London

12y 147K 4,484 70 20

just thinking about this.

The only action that this can be is related to IP.

Right now DR haven't shipped anything so the impact to any IP ownership is pretty much zero.

However if someone has IP that RAZA impacts then by shipping it could create a damages situation.

Wildly speculating but based on the most legally active pinball IP owner - I wonder if this might be related to WMS IP ? Is RAZA on some bit of paper that the WMS IP holder has? Its the sort of JPOP bullshit that wouldn't surprise anyone.

Neil.

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#21015 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

just thinking about this.
The only action that this can be is related to IP.
Right now DR haven't shipped anything so the impact to any IP ownership is pretty much zero.
However if someone has IP that RAZA impacts then by shipping it could create a damages situation.
Wildly speculating but based on the most legally active pinball IP owner - I wonder if this might be related to WMS IP ? Is RAZA on some bit of paper that the WMS IP holder has?
Neil.

The most likely is that wcbrandes still owns the zidware ip including raza as he stated here that he did years ago.

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#21016 2 years ago
 
NJM

NeilMcRae

Pinside+ Pro!

GB London

12y 147K 4,484 70 20

ah yes just seen these:

Screenshot 2021-07-31 at 10.48.37 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-07-31 at 10.48.37 (resized).png

Screenshot 2021-07-31 at 10.49.44 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-07-31 at 10.49.44 (resized).png

but has to be IP related.

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#21017 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

ah yes just seen these:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
but has to be IP related.

I believe the first one is more in reference to how infringing the original RAZA art is

Idk if this is Bill or not, but it is worth bringing up again that deeproot effectively stripped out Zidware’s assets despite them owing multiple debtors, and their assets were largely some JPop patents and IP.

The “goodwill agreement” by Robert was a tactic to get customers to forgo their rights against Zidware in exchange for fifty cents to the dollar. It did not address or help several of JPops biggest debtors/victims.

Zidware games like Magic Girl and RAZA should have NEVER been done by deeproot. Just pointless to open themselves up to that risk

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#21018 2 years ago
 
ADS

EalaDubhSidhe

Pinside member

GB Merthyr Tydfil

11y 58,050 1,212

RAZA: Robert Accedes Zero Assets.

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#21019 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

RAZA: Robert Accedes Zero Assets.

RAZA: Robert’s Asinine Zidware Adventure

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#21020 2 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 124K 3,005 13 2

RAZA : Ridiculously Awkward Zipperhead Atrocity

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#21021 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

RAZA: Robert’s Attorney’s Zany Advice

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#21022 2 years ago
 
JWG

greatwichjohn

Great Pinball

CA Halifax, NS

11y 100K 4,532

It was over 150 Star Gazer & Seawitch playfields out to customers over 8 years. Also had 48 in production that are with the new group that bought me out. Had a 6 day fulltime job, & now retired. Deep Root does not add up for what should be going on since last December. Even with a minimal staff they should of been able to produce 25 - 100, or more Raza in house with everything there. If they were missing parts they should of continued on with production until the parts showed up. You would think they would of planned initially to order a minimum 100 cabinets, playfields, etc. If they did nothing they are plain stupid or lazy! Even a one man show like myself working with contractors, & working 6 days a week non pinball job could do that. If they continue to show no pictures of what is going on with the remaining staff. Then things are way worse than Andrew Heighway days. How you can blow multi millions of dollars, & have close to nothing is idiotic! Even Kevin with Predator built a few games, wasted money on cabinets, & parts with the help of 1 guy. Still do not believe the story with Dutch Pinball, & their build contractor. Like I have said Deep Root could be in the business if they had a production team, & proper management. If you do not pay your staff, contractors, vendors, etc. you are dumb. Same as these dumb law cases over very minor amounts of money. Guess you cannot help some people that think pinball is easy!

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#21023 2 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 124K 3,005 13 2

Quoted from TheLaw:

"TWIP: Is deeproot the Next Misadventure or a Pinball Revolution? "

Wayyyy back in the beginning of this thread - one of the first posts. Guess now we have an answer.
Actually we did back then too. How did anybody think this wouldn't turn out bad ?

Also take a trip back to the first page and See posts #49 and #50

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#21024 2 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 124K 3,005 13 2

Quoted from greatwichjohn:

It was over 150 Star Gazer & Seawitch playfields out to customers over 8 years. Also had 48 in production that are with the new group that bought me out. Had a 6 day fulltime job, & now retired. Deep Root does not add up for what should be going on since last December. Even with a minimal staff they should of been able to produce 25 - 100, or more Raza in house with everything there. If they were missing parts they should of continued on with production until the parts showed up. You would think they would of planned initially to order a minimum 100 cabinets, playfields, etc. If they did nothing they are plain stupid or lazy! Even a one man show like myself working with contractors, & working 6 days a week non pinball job could do that. If they continue to show no pictures of what is going on with the remaining staff. Then things are way worse than Andrew Heighway days. How you can blow multi millions of dollars, & have close to nothing is idiotic! Even Kevin with Predator built a few games, wasted money on cabinets, & parts with the help of 1 guy. Still do not believe the story with Dutch Pinball, & their build contractor. Like I have said Deep Root could be in the business if they had a production team, & proper management. If you do not pay your staff, contractors, vendors, etc. you are dumb. Same as these dumb law cases over very minor amounts of money. Guess you cannot help some people that think pinball is easy!

@ greatwichjohn - agree with you on this post. Very Lucid.

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#21025 2 years ago
 
TOM

Lounge

Pinside+ Frequent

4y 71,050 1,535 5

Does anyone believe this “legal issues” argument?

DR is basically saying - ‘for the last 7 years that we’ve been working on RAZA we have just now discovered a “legal issue” with RAZA or the IP surrounding it, and we can’t ship games.’ It’s not even a licensed game. Does that make sense to anyone??

If it was a PPP issue, you could still build and ship games. At this point, the only thing preventing DR from building games is DR.

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#21026 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from TreyBo69:

This ain't over till the courts say it is

In retrospect this was a very accurate comment I made the morning before the update.

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#21027 2 years ago
 
ARG

spinal

Pinside member

7y 69,150 1,537

Last update rings dire to me. A company embroiled in even 100 lawsuits that is legitimately trying to persue success would at least downplay and focus on successes.

It’s the kind of message that is purposefully sent to prepare one for a final message. A lawsuit is an easy scapegoat reason to fold a company while saving face without any admission of guilt so he can move on - an exit strategy a lawyer would come up with. Not a good sign.

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#21028 2 years ago
 
ARG

spinal

Pinside member

7y 69,150 1,537

Come to think of it, what other reason can there be to release an update that only mentions a lawsuit? It’s obvious.

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#21029 2 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 124K 3,005 13 2

Quoted from Lounge:

Does anyone believe this “legal issues” argument?
DR is basically saying - ‘for the last 7 years that we’ve been working on RAZA we have just now discovered a “legal issue” with RAZA or the IP surrounding it, and we can’t ship games.’ It’s not even a licensed game. Does that make sense to anyone??
If it was a PPP issue, you could still build and ship games. At this point, the only thing preventing DR from building games is DR.

Could be real or could be more vapor and just a made up exit strategy. Just could keep it in perpetual twilight zone forever saying legal issues. Pulling the plug without ever declaring it over and a way to preserve the Ego. I thought this was a very plausible thing shortly after reading the "update".

I think the major Basis of the whole thing that is DeepRoot is Ego and Arrogance. Incompetency thrown in for good measure. Stir in one measure of Jpop and there you go. In the end though Ego is driving the bus.

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#21030 2 years ago
 
ARG

spinal

Pinside member

7y 69,150 1,537

Another thought... Companies are involved in lawsuits all the time - it’s usually not a big deal and especially lawyers know this better than anyone else.

So from a laywer’s perspective, why would he release an update mentioning something like this like it’s the most important topic for the business right now?

Preparation for what’s coming next.

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#21031 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from spinal:

Another thought... Companies are involved in lawsuits all the time - it’s usually not a big deal and especially lawyers know this better than anyone else.
So from a laywer’s perspective, why would he release an update mentioning something like this like it’s the most important topic for the business right now.
Preparation.

>A legal matter affecting RAZA arose around a month ago
>The back-and-forth has taken much, much longer than we expected.

he said it just came up a month ago and he’s surprised it isn’t resolved yet?

What sort of lawyer isn’t familiar with how slow this stuff is…

Then again I guess it matches Robert’s history of expecting things to be done in a fraction of the time it actually takes to do anything

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#21032 2 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,130 14 6 1

Quoted from TreyBo69:

>A legal matter affecting RAZA arose around a month ago
>The back-and-forth has taken much, much longer than we expected.
he said it just came up a month ago and he’s surprised it isn’t resolved yet?
What sort of lawyer isn’t familiar with how slow this stuff is…
Then again I guess it matches Robert’s history of expecting things to be done in a fraction of the time it actually takes to do anything

Probably indicates this is a set up for the final death blow. Funny now there is still the assumption everyone is a big moron and will buy into all this. Better Call Saul!

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#21033 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,062 556

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#21034 2 years ago
 
ARG

spinal

Pinside member

7y 69,150 1,537

Quoted from TreyBo69:

>A legal matter affecting RAZA arose around a month ago
>The back-and-forth has taken much, much longer than we expected.
he said it just came up a month ago and he’s surprised it isn’t resolved yet?
What sort of lawyer isn’t familiar with how slow this stuff is…

This is a very good point.

No lawyer on Earth would be surprised that legal matters would not be resolved in a month.

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#21035 2 years ago
 
DGH

DudeRegular

Pinside member

6y 111K 3,412 108

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#21036 2 years ago
 
MEH

ThePinballCo-op

The Pinball Co-op

9y 115K 1,752 40

RM: "Here's an update as to why I haven't given you an update."

This could have easily been sent out weeks ago. What's the point of waiting to say this? Avoiding the inevitable backlash I assume. So instead of having an update about "no progress has been made", RM chooses "here's a late update about no progress being made", thus compounding the issue.

More Failed Promises.
Late Update Littered With Excuses.
No Timeline On Production.

I feel like the only thing that could save RM is to show humility. "I was wrong, pinball IS hard. Here are a list of hurdles I've yet to overcome *makes list*. I don't have a timeline but I will post pics of progress to keep you in the loop." It'd be like hitting the reset button and getting some people back on your side.

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#21037 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,645

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#21038 2 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,130 14 6 1

Quoted from ThePinballCo-op:

RM: "Here's an update as to why I haven't given you an update."
This could have easily been sent out weeks ago. What's the point of waiting to say this? Avoiding the inevitable backlash I assume. So instead of having an update about "no progress has been made", RM chooses "here's a late update about no progress being made", thus compounding the issue.
More Failed Promises.
Late Update Littered With Excuses.
No Timeline On Production.
I feel like the only thing that could save RM is to show humility. "I was wrong, pinball IS hard. Here are a list of hurdles I've yet to overcome *makes list*. I don't have a timeline but I will post pics of progress to keep you in the loop." It'd be like hitting the reset button and getting some people back on your side.

I’d love to hear what the investors think of this plan. They are probably the ones suing him

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#21039 2 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I’d love to hear what the investors think of this plan. They are probably the ones suing him

If somebody mentions “the investors” again…I’m going to rage.

There. Are. No. Investors.

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#21040 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,062 556

D863E7AE-65F6-4183-95A6-E073E8A54E89.gifD863E7AE-65F6-4183-95A6-E073E8A54E89.gif
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#21041 2 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,524

Quoted from Mr68:

The only thing this thread needs now is a car chase and a sex scene.

It could use a big musical number.

And I have to say the idea of a “legal battle over RAZA IP” is one of the funniest things I’ve seen in this thread.

Putting it instantly in the running for one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on pinside.

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#21042 2 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from Scandell:

If somebody mentions “the investors” again…I’m going to rage.
There. Are. No. Investors.

I invested through PPP loan / charity.
How do I get my money back?

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#21043 2 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from cpr9999:

I invested through PPP loan / charity.
How do I get my money back?

touché haha

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#21044 2 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from Scandell:

If somebody mentions “the investors” again…I’m going to rage.
There. Are. No. Investors.

For my own clarity, to see if I understand this:

Your statement is referring to the fact that none of the tens of millions of dollars raised through deeproot finance is "for" deeproot pinball. Those people have no idea it exists. All they bought was a "financial product", and as long as their promised returns are made, they don't know/don't care about any of this.

Am I understanding correctly?

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#21045 2 years ago
 
JAM

Wolfmarsh

Pinside member

12y 134K 10,956

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

but has to be IP related.

That was my uneducated guess as well. I haven't seen the RAZA playfield art in a while, so my memory may be fuzzy, but didn't they have all kind of stolen assets on that game? I might be misremembering but didn't they have pictures of like Dracula and other stuff on there? Was that BHZA?

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#21046 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Also Scandell

You mentioned knowing of Farewell Dinosaur before (a RJM joint)

Do you know of Robot Dreams Entertainment?
https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_tx/0803576777

Robert has sooo many companies. Almost limitless limited liability
https://opencorporates.com/officers/us_tx?q=Robert+J+Mueller

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#21047 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

That was my uneducated guess as well. I haven't seen the RAZA playfield art in a while, so my memory may be fuzzy, but didn't they have all kind of stolen assets on that game? I might be misremembering but didn't they have pictures of like Dracula and other stuff on there? Was that BHZA?

The Zidware art had a lot of violations. They redid the art and I don’t think anyone noticed anything in particular

I think it’s more likely about who actually owns the RAZA IP

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#21048 2 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Also Scandell
You mentioned knowing of Farewell Dinosaur before (a RJM joint)
Do you know of Robot Dreams Entertainment?
https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_tx/0803576777
Robert has sooo many companies. Almost limitless limited liability
https://opencorporates.com/officers/us_tx?q=Robert+J+Mueller

Similar situation to Farewell Dinosaur.

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#21049 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from Scandell:

Similar situation to Farewell Dinosaur.

Hope to hear the story on both some day

I figured all those animators had to be doing more than some pinball cinematic.

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#21050 2 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from frolic:

For my own clarity, to see if I understand this:
Your statement is referring to the fact that none of the tens of millions of dollars raised through deeproot finance is "for" deeproot pinball. Those people have no idea it exists. All they bought was a "financial product", and as long as their promised returns are made, they don't know/don't care about any of this.
Am I understanding correctly?

That’s essentially my understanding. It benefited from being part of a portfolio. (Past tense)

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