Boerne, TX
Lighten up and pull the cork out fellas. Wound up a bit tight.
It’ll be ok. I promise! 
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from benheck:I don't care how many investors get screwed.
I don't care how many employees get sued.
I don't care how many vendors get shafted.
I JUST WANT MY RARE SHINY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
...signed Iceman
Now you got it Ben!!!! As if you or I can do a thing about the above. Very weak narrative. You gotta do better than that
Give me my RARE SHINY damn it! It’s really pissing me off. Oh thx for the MG
….signed Mitchell. Lol
Quoted from benheck:You know what. I hope you get your shiny.
Just don't align with deeproot. When the stories finally flow, you'll not want to be on their side.
Take it easy. I don’t care if I get my “shiny” like the MG boys. I really don’t. It’s just a hobby and I got an early Halloween coming
I’m not on anyone’s team and the last one would be DR. You act as if I know nothing. I know what I experienced personally and I know many of the stories too (yet no lawsuits filed)
This is going way beyond pinball, relax and enjoy the ride
Quoted from iceman44:….signed Mitchell. Lol
pasted_image 1 (resized).pngQuoted from metallik:Oh it's been in antique phase for as long as anything else, look at the crazy prices on the few "desirable" woodrails out there.
Problem is, as an art form, one of pinball's biggest draws is the gameplay, and boring woodrails and EMs just don't garner much interest from anyone. Think of all the Christmas and partridge family and oak ridge boys LP you find at the thrift stores... old crappy EMs and woodrails (and SS games) are just like those. Bad art, boring gameplay, too many made, no one wants.
Of course, as the supply dries up, even the bad examples slowly become desirable...
A relatively small but passionate prewar pinball collectors market has existed for 35+ years. The same is true for woodrails.
Some titles continue to fetch more than a Big Bang Bar. Try finding a restored 1936 GM Labs Soccer for under $25K. Likewise, 1935 Rockola Army Navy regularly sells for $13K - $18K and a few have topped $20K. Games made in 1934 and thereabouts encompass nearly every important pinball innovation, including ramps and subways.
A 1951 Gottlieb Mermaid sold for approximately $17K about 15 years ago and a 1951 Gottlieb Glamor sold for about $15K in 2017. Several woodrail titles (e.g. Niagara, Grand Slam, Queen of Hearts, Spot Bowler, Marble Queen, Daisy May, Knock Out) have traditionally commanded high price tags. These and other games are tremendous fun. Some feature 7 paths to a replay. The art packages are great; the gameplay is inspired. Woodrail prices have dipped somewhat in last 3 years; but, the best titles have mostly held their value.
The same is true of the robust general EM market, which concentrates on sixties and seventies era games. The scarcely-seen wedgeheads like Gottlieb TKO fetch $9K. Gottlieb Blue Note/Rock Star are not far behind. Transitional multiplayer EMs like Gottlieb Space Walk sell for $15K. I'm one of the administrators of the EM Pinball Facebook page. Its current membership tally is 7,400 and the group is extremely active every day.
About 10 years ago, the early solid state market began to rise. Games like Fathom and Quicksilver skyrocketed, restored examples exchanging hands for $7K+.
In other words, the typical pinball enthusiast, who follows a RAZA thread here on Pinside or who exclusively buys NIB Stern, JJP, Spooky and AP games, TBL, Alien et. al to accompany their classic Williams-Bally-Midway titles, may be unaware that substantial niche collector markets exist in pinball for the older games and those markets are growing.
The only anemic pinball decade is the 1940s. All other decades are witnessing a demonstrable growth in buyer demand. These collector markets will likely continue to grow irrespective of the success or failure of start-up ventures like deeproot.
Quoted from Richthofen:I don't think they were "phoning it in". There was a confluence of factors. LOTR was an amazing game but Stern's printing process or art preparation or whatever it was, was awful. Maybe they switched to a digital printing process prematurely? Who knows. I do know that they had to go into survival mode right around the time of Avatar, which was probably the bottom of the housing market, and at the same time, the bottom of the operator market. But they made the right choices and kept the lights on. And I think people really discard the amazing 2000s titles when they think of Stern. Family Guy? Amazing. TRON? LOTR, Spiderman... What titles were they phoning it in on? Indiana Jones and NBA, maybe?
I think the narrative that JJP somehow spurned Stern into making better games is a false one. JJP came along in 2011/2012, but if it takes a year to develop a game, AC/DC and TRON were already under development at the time JJP was started. Really, what changed the entire industry was that the collector market grew in size substantially. If you were born in 1980, you would have played Addams Family pinball as a 11 year old and been part of arcade culture. You would come into your peak earnings years at 30-40, aka 2010-2020. You'd probably own a home at have room for a game or two. [quoted image]
WTF is Good Morning America
Maybe the clearcoating room needs a little more ventilation?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Did this come to you in an ayahuasca vision?
Quoted from ZNET:which concentrates on sixties and seventies era games.
My latest focus is 60's wedgeheads from my youth... I have a Gottlieb Central Park and a Subway (yes I finally found one) and both are fun as hell... the pair cost me $2300 plus $500 to ship one if them, but both are playable, working all the way desirable EM's with animated backglasses. They can only go up in value, but I bought them to play.
Quoted from iceman44:No employees, facility, IP, nothing but BS
Remind me. Which one of these does deeproot have the most of? IP, lol
Quoted from iceman44:Lighten up and pull the cork out fellas. Wound up a bit tight.
It’ll be ok. I promise!
Says the guy who constantly rage quits this forum and can't even read this post because you blocked me. Lol
Quoted from mrgone:I spoke to Dirty Donny at the 2019 Golden State Pinball Festival.
He told me that when stern was negotiating with Metallica to do the game that stern wanted nothing to do with Donny or his art.
Metallica put their foot down and said no Donny, no game.
So we partly have Metallica to thank for the renaissance in good pinball art.
This would be correct. Metallica set the stage for all the complaining about photoshop art and calling for hand drawn art on here and every other forum. It was Stern that didn't embrace it not the people as flynnibus claims. Anyone that's been on here long enough would have witnessed this in the forums. ZY would have never been hired if it wasn't for the people calling for it.
Such a shame as deeproot has some innovative features. But sadly led by ego maniac that let his pride dictate the outcome of all these amazing designers. RIP DEEPROOT
Quoted from RCA1:When is RM going to say or do something else ridiculous?
Was supposed to be after July 4th. Then it was supposed to be Week of July 19 or possibly sooner.
I personally think deeproots main fault was trying to reinvent the wheel on their first game and talking smack about all the established MANUFACTURERS which clearly they know nothing about.
Halifax, NS
I am looking forward to going back to drinking beer with my pinball friends after 5 days! Could of gone longer but you might as well enjoy life. All around the world pinball prices are way up on everything except maybe woodrails or earlier. Had a Blue Note here that went back to the USA for what I thought was crazy money, but maybe it was cheap!
Later I will be talking with one of the new groups going into the pinball business. If they are not the Deep Root contractor, Robert needs to find one ASAP! If not another group I am dealing with might be interested. But I hope Robert is or has someone following Pinside to figure out this is it this year 2021. Got to have a plan to move forward with production. Get a new spokesperson to get off to a fresh start, same with Mike at Homepin.
People know how much Deep Root has spent so far, with very few games made (prototypes). Hard to compare to the village idiot (predator) who did blow a large chunks of money on others besides his poor family. That was real drama there that never ends.
My hope & others is that Deep Root fills their obligations. Becomes another source of pinball machines. People can hate a bunch, but the show must go on, or fold up the tent for good.
Man I know there are no updates, but think this thread has broken the Pinside record for people making everything about themselves!
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Man I know there are no updates, but think this thread has broken the Pinside record for people making everything about themselves!
RAZA was at one point, quite literally "about me".
Quoted from benheck:RAZA was at one point, quite literally "about me".
LOL you got me with that one. Wait.. is there artwork?!!
Quoted from benheck:RAZA was at one point, quite literally "about me".
First red flag. No offense Ben but it was like who tf is this guy and why is he in the game.
Should have blown John up right then. And of course the DIY editions or so where you and he were going to go to houses and build Razas together.
Oh man, it was right in front of our faces but had to treat the egomaniac with kid gloves. That’s how he got away with it.
He was the master and creator of the current phenomenon known as PIN FOMO!
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:LOL you got me with that one. Wait.. is there artwork?!!
Oh yeah. It's probably on Google. "Ben Heck Zombie Adventureland" or BHZA in Pin Lingo
Wasn't my idea BTW. John is like "you're popular with gamers this will draw in a younger market!" I'm thinking "Oh yeah a 36 year old balding ginger man just what everyone wants. Whatever"
But it is true I go WAY back with the gaming crowd. To really stroke my own pole Jeremy was a fan of my work and that's part of the reason he was excited to help.
But John works at a snails pace and didn't take any feedback... From the person the game is about! So when Charlie said he'd make AMH I was like SEE YA JOHN!
"You're making a big mistake Ben".... Hahahahahahha! What an idiot.
Oh and John never created a legal agreement for the game, royalties or use of likeness. Which was really dumb because I was working for Premier Farnell at the time who also were using me as a brand ambassador so John could have gotten himself in hot water very easily. It's one of the many reasons I'm pissed he involved me in it.
In addendum, I actually think John has some mental deficiencies. Not like "he's an idiot" I mean actual cognitive impairment.
Quoted from iceman44:Oh man, it was right in front of our faces but had to treat the egomaniac with kid gloves. That’s how he got away with it.
Ice I am an egotist. I do think I'm better and smarter than most people. That I won't deny.
But I'm not "BHZA" kind of egotist. I would never in a million years make a game about myself. As for why John would... Well that theory is being saved for Story Time.
Quoted from benheck:Ice I am an egotist. I do think I'm better and smarter than most people. That I won't deny.
But I'm not "BHZA" kind of egotist. I would never in a million years make a game about myself. As for why John would... Well that theory is being saved for Story Time.
Because he wanted to flatter you into doing the hardwork and/or guilt trip you into making sure it turned out nice since people would associate it with you?
It takes quite the mind to manipulate like that while also justifying it as a good business idea that other people would spend thousands to have a game of you.
Quoted from benheck:Ice I am an egotist. I do think I'm better and smarter than most people. That I won't deny.
But I'm not "BHZA" kind of egotist. I would never in a million years make a game about myself. As for why John would... Well that theory is being saved for Story Time.
LOL. I get it, that was all John's stupid idea i guess to lock you in to Zidware somehow. The conversations i had with him after that infamous TBL expo, he had no accounting/bookkeeping, wouldn't hire anyone to do it, and basically admitted he was in deep shit and needed help.
Don't forget, designers coming to your house to build your machine wasn't a zidware-exclusive. Deeproot jumped on the revolutionary concept too. Nordman is going to be salty when pin2d announces the winners of that contest and Dennis finds out for where he needs to arrange travel plans.
Quoted from benheck:In addendum, I actually think John has some mental deficiencies. Not like "he's an idiot" I mean actual cognitive impairment.
Boy howdy. When I flew back to Chicago to meet with Jpop on behalf of the Zidware people, I didn't know how to explain my experience back to the group. He really has a fleeting grasp of reality at times and speaks about alternate universes of love and pinball. He was incapable of answering direct questions and instead babbled on with circular logic and of fanciful worlds. Right now I'm struggling to describe my, one on one meeting with him. It was weird, confusing and nothing like I expected from my, bigger than life, favorite designer.
I was caught off guard and to my great embarrassment, I accomplished almost nothing for the group. My flight home was two hours of, WTF just happened and I later joined the lawsuit that Bruce Z was kind enough to organize.
I still think BHZA made the most sense. A mad scientist has created a Zombie army horde at his secret lair of an abandoned amusement park. That's a lot easier to explain than whatever it is now.
Quoted from clempo:Is that JPOP I see on the receiving end of that laser gun?
[quoted image]
I think jpop is in the background, middle left.
@benheck, any truth to the rumor that instead of brains, the zombies in BHZA crave venti double caffs?
Quoted from benheck:Oh yeah. It's probably on Google. "Ben Heck Zombie Adventureland" or BHZA in Pin Lingo
Wasn't my idea BTW. John is like "you're popular with gamers this will draw in a younger market!" I'm thinking "Oh yeah a 36 year old balding ginger man just what everyone wants. Whatever"
But it is true I go WAY back with the gaming crowd. To really stroke my own pole Jeremy was a fan of my work and that's part of the reason he was excited to help.
But John works at a snails pace and didn't take any feedback... From the person the game is about! So when Charlie said he'd make AMH I was like SEE YA JOHN!
"You're making a big mistake Ben".... Hahahahahahha! What an idiot.
Oh and John never created a legal agreement for the game, royalties or use of likeness. Which was really dumb because I was working for Premier Farnell at the time who also were using me as a brand ambassador so John could have gotten himself in hot water very easily. It's one of the many reasons I'm pissed he involved me in it.
In addendum, I actually think John has some mental deficiencies. Not like "he's an idiot" I mean actual cognitive impairment.
That looks amazing! And incredibly stupid for the reasons you mention
Quoted from frolic:I still think BHZA made the most sense. A mad scientist has created a Zombie army horde at his secret lair of an abandoned amusement park. That's a lot easier to explain than whatever it is now.
I have to agree that does sound like a much more interesting story than what was (never) produced
Quoted from frolic:I still think BHZA made the most sense. A mad scientist has created a Zombie army horde at his secret lair of an abandoned amusement park. That's a lot easier to explain than whatever it is now.
What's so hard to follow about a bustling amusement park at an old nuclear reactor site that was built on ancient Native American burial grounds being the crash site of alien invaders who use xenon gas to raise an army of the dead while a different alien warrior princess and an alien human cyborg team up with the player to help save the earth? Also Dracula
Quoted from TreyBo69:What's so hard to follow about a bustling amusement park at an old nuclear reactor site that was built on ancient Native American burial grounds being the crash site of alien invaders who use xenon gas to raise an army of the dead while a different alien warrior princess and an alien human cyborg team up with the player to help save the earth? Also Dracula
I just did a spit take IRL. My poor monitor
Quoted from Mr68:He really has a fleeting grasp of reality at times and speaks about alternate universes of love and pinball. He was incapable of answering direct questions and instead babbled on with circular logic and of fanciful worlds.
"I've got to get something out. Or I need to get out. Like to Mexico."
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from TreyBo69:What's so hard to follow about a bustling amusement park at an old nuclear reactor site that was built on ancient Native American burial grounds being the crash site of alien invaders who use xenon gas to raise an army of the dead while a different alien warrior princess and an alien human cyborg team up to help you? Also Dracula
Looks like we found the lead editor for our Raza fan wiki. Feel free to get started by writing up the content from the comic book posted to fun with bonus, plus the dozen or however many in character gameplay explainer posts
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Looks like we found the lead editor for our Raza fan wiki. Feel free to get started by writing up the content from the comic book posted to fun with bonus, plus the dozen or however many in character gameplay explainer posts
Robert is going to be laughing all the way to the bank when Dizzie Doozie plushies are the must have toy at Christmas!
Quoted from TreyBo69:What's so hard to follow about a bustling amusement park at an old nuclear reactor site that was built on ancient Native American burial grounds being the crash site of alien invaders who use xenon gas to raise an army of the dead while a different alien warrior princess and an alien human cyborg team up with the player to help save the earth? Also Dracula
Wow. This sounds like it would make a great theme for a pinball machine. Someone get on it.
Quoted from benheck:Ice I am an egotist. I do think I'm better and smarter than most people. That I won't deny.
But I'm not "BHZA" kind of egotist. I would never in a million years make a game about myself. As for why John would... Well that theory is being saved for Story Time.
At least you got to be incorporated into some cool artwork.
I think it looks pretty badass. Ego maniac or not 
, I couldn't fault you for hanging a poster of that artwork up in your own pad.
Quoted from Honch:At least you got to be incorporated into some cool artwork
Not to mention the Toupee...you can barely tell.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Robert is going to be laughing all the way to the bank when Dizzie Doozie plushies are the must have toy at Christmas!
[quoted image]
I'm personally most looking forward to the RAZA tabletop campaign and the Magic the Gathering style deeproot card set (though I worry the Mueller card will be OP). The clips shown at Comic Con from the Yukon Yeti / Riverdale crossover limited run series coming to Amazon look promising, too.
Quoted from benheck:In addendum, I actually think John has some mental deficiencies. Not like "he's an idiot" I mean actual cognitive impairment.
Serious question. How did he get top billing for designing, CV, TOTAN and TOM? Those are 3 pretty good pins (IMHO) and he doesn't even seem capable of designing a basic pin layout from the 60's.
Quoted from ZNET:In other words, the typical pinball enthusiast, who follows a RAZA thread here on Pinside or who exclusively buys NIB Stern, JJP, Spooky and AP games, TBL, Alien et. al to accompany their classic Williams-Bally titles, may be unaware that substantial niche collector markets exist in pinball for the older games and those markets are growing.
That's basically what I said - some older titles fetch big bucks but the majority do not. Genuine question: do you think the market is growing to the point most remaining early games/woodrails will become valuable, or will the high dollars stay with a few select titles? I haven't followed that market and thus any growth has been under my radar. Is there that much difference between a 17K woodrail and a $300 one? Is it just rarity or does gameplay have a significant factor in pricing?
Quoted from metallik:Think of all the Christmas and partridge family and oak ridge boys LP you find at the thrift stores... old crappy EMs and woodrails (and SS games) are just like those. Bad art, boring gameplay, too many made, no one wants.
Of course, as the supply dries up, even the bad examples slowly become desirable...
I’ve spent the better part of the last 2 decades oblivious to the fact that the Oak Ridge Boys ever existed.
Thanks a lot.
Quoted from woodworker:Says the guy who constantly rage quits this forum and can't even read this post because you blocked me. Lol
You only have a few hundred posts in an 8 year period and you still, somehow managed to piss off someone enough for them to block you.
Ill give you credit you make your posts count. 
Quoted from iceman44:How does that compare to DR money wise?
Oh, to be sure, DR’s scam/theft/sheer failure (pick any two) is an order of magnitude greater than Skit B’s.
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