deeproot Pinball thread

None of us have given them any money yet, so I don’t understand the people willing them to fail. I hope they are extremely successful and produce a bunch of high quality games. The extra competition will only serve to make all of the companies work harder to earn our money.

Interesting, especially since deeproot promised any victims of JPOP's fiasco that if they didn't deliver the games by June 30, 2019, then they would pay back the RAZA/AIW deposits on Claimant's proof of claim. I wonder how that June date is looking now...

It's "investor" money looking for a return. He's raised at least $13 million from what i can tell by the SEC filings. Investment Advisors are selling this idea to their clients.

I agree with Lloyd, i hope they make it, would be great for pinball.

More full time heads than all the other manufacturers combined? That seems overstated. Either that or potentially pushing up against Brooks' Law.

I think most of us do (including myself), but when you hear big talk, then delays, and hemorrhaging money you have to wonder how long they can sustain, and even if they do start building product what's the risk involved of not staying in business because they can't sustain cost vs income (so who do you go to when your machine fails, see big lebowski project). Spooky was risky, but I still bought AMH because his business plan made sense (and he's only 3 hours away so I could drive there with my pitchfork), and having someone like Ben around at the time certainly bought some credibility.

Is it possible that many Stern employees are not direct, full time employees? Maybe through a third party service?
Otherwise that statement is nuts.

If Stern uses contractors, it’s because they’re smart. It gives them more flexibility for production schedules and “rush” situations. The group I work for now is about 50% contractors and believe me, we count.

Good thing they have the Quad assembly to produce that volume of machines.

Insert the old jokes about JPop and delays???

I can’t imagine him learning how to work faster than he has in the past on any of the deeproot games he is working. Dilettantism is probably hard to cure.

Octo, pal, octo.

Reminds me of the old saying....

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Just searched on linkedin for deeproot tech and I count about 25 people stating they work there;. and that's only including Barry Oursler as game designer, JPop and others previously announced are not in that list. So I think his statement won't be far from the truth..

Some of the profiles (3D animators, story writer) give me the impression they're more like a software/games company than a pinball manufacturer so I'm really curious to what they will release.

Really seems like a sort of VR or virtual something is involved here, I think you are right

Maybe it will end up being a multi-pronged approach. Maybe they will release a physical machine along with a digital machine (like Pinball FX3) at the same time...hit both markets.

Man, imagine a new machine released both physically and digitally at the same time. How would that do in the market? I imagine it might be of short-term interest, but for me it's back to the same thing - video game pinball vs real pinball? No brainer.

I do think there's a lot of creative opportunity for building using transparent LCD displays and dynamic digital interfaces (like P3 I guess), but man is it a lot of work. And I can say for *sure* that I really prefer the interactive, physical toys and mechs on the playfield to just another screen.

Or they have hired talent outside pinball to get some new ideas for pinball.

Let’s face the fact that the same people have been making pinball machines for a while now.

It’s far past the time to get new people designing and creating.

Though pretty predictable, some of RM's responses are quite concerning:

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1) TWIP: What are the biggest hurdles you have to get past before launch?
RM: Staffing. It has been very difficult getting qualified candidates (in TX and UT) that will fit our pipeline.

2)TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term.

3)TWIP: How many people are now employed by deeproot’s pinball division?
RM: From my best guess, we have more non-line, non-temp staff than all the other pinball companies put together. And that will only increase over the next few months.

4)TWIP: Do you still plan to launch in 2019?
RM: We will launch when we are ready. I certainly hope it’s in 2019.

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1) No shit. You chose your main base of operations as Texas, and not in Dallas, Houston or Austin. How many people are going to move to Utah unless they really like winter sports?

2) Zero concern, but then follows up by saying they're spending an annualised $9M per year, which is continuing to rise, and that it's unsustainable without a launch (income). I wouldn't be unconcerned about that admission if I was an investor.

3) Might be right, since Stern appear to rely quite heavily on contract work. But see 2).

4) In light of 2) & 3), if they don't launch in 2019, or launch without immediate and significant revenue generation, how long before it starts getting hairy, given that he's already said it's unsustainable without it.

Maybe everything's under control, but if people start leaving in the next few months, watch out ...

Would it? they haven't taken any consumer money, and they're paying salaries of pinball people in the meantime. If they fail and fold up before taking money OUT of the hobby, I'm not sure it makes any difference at all.

at the very minimum, it's providing a way for some of the masters to stay paid from, and engaged by pinball. That in and of itself is pretty awesome, and will pay off in some way eventually, even if it's only one or two of them (please not JPOP) that emerge with a new game or idea. I recently listened to the Chris Granner interview on the Head2Head Podcast, and he talks about working for Zynga and not having worked on pinball for 10 or 15 years, which is very sad. He's got to go where the work is!

TWIP: You have said in the past that “Pinball is Easy” – do you still believe that?
RM: I’ve been very clear. Pinball is easy because there are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity. But everything that goes into making pinball is definitely (not for the faint of heart) complex.

Perhaps a more clear way of saying this is to drop the whole, "Pinball is easy" part and just say, "There are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity."

Where'd you think all that money came from? Investors.

Also, on a more general point, nothing exists in a vacuum in such a small industry. Particularly as you're wasting the time and talents (JPop excepted) of mostly elderly designers who don't have that long left in their working lives.

You're also potentially raising the barriers to entry, for serious competitors to the incumbents. Others may be less willing to step in. That's very bad for buyers.

So much wrong with much of what you said...

Well, somebody must have. After all they are an investment company.

And those investors must really love pinball and/or think it is/was an excellent way to get big returns.

Worst case scenario. They don't get anything out the door.

No consumer money lost.

But many of the people working there, could have been working on pinball projects at other manufacturers. We lose a lot of talent that would have been better used on other things.

LTG : )
Disclaimer : I hope Deep Root is successful.

What your logic misses is... investors will blow big money without sweating it because they believe there is a potential payoff. They take a risk hoping to hit the payoff. But doing so requires having a story about what the payoff is... and is it achievable. If you don't do that, the investors don't buy in.

What we are saying here is... this burn rate is not inline with what is practically known as achievable (or in line with what your total addressable market maybe). Basically it reeks of "not economically feasible"

People lose money on investments.. but they usually don't just burn millions without some diligence.

omg so much this. this this this.

The vast majority of Stern's production staff are all working for a labor firm. Some are long-term temps, but temps none the less. I was using the same agency for some of my staff down the street from Stern. Just a fact of life in the production realm anymore. If you are going to compete using US workers, you often end up going with temp staff to save the cost of benefits, HR department, etc. My temps got the same benefits as regular staff, but most companies don't go that far. Even some of the design staff are contractors, in that they get paid a flat fee and/or commission. Stern (and pretty much all of the other manufacturers as well) have very few actual company full-time staff. This way if your lines are down for the day, you send everyone home and you don't have to pay them. So while Deep Root's claim to having the most full-time staff may actually be true, it is a play on words and not what folks think of in the actual sense of what was said.

can you make it into a cargument tho?

Dennis has a darn good bullshit-o-meter! If he leaves, that says it all!

Could it be possible that they are trolling all of us (or throwing us off the scent) & then surprise us all with machines at TPF?

No. More like announce now so people forget about the big reveal in three months.

If they waited until the show, all heck would break loose.

This way they can regroup and make a better estimate of the when and where and what.

LTG : )

This seems like an easy bet... lol. Transparency, although it makes people angry, is hard to argue against.

As a Pinball Hobbyist / enthusiast of dozens of awesome pinball games, for 25+ years (since 1992), I've never been to Texas Pinball Festival.

As "Buyer" of JPop's RAZA, many years ago (in at $4,750)... This year, I booked a flight and a hotel room, for the "Big 5 Reveal". I'm real bummed to hear about the delayed reveal. Hopefully, there will be something to share with us, as a pinball community at that festival.

This is the only real bummer. I feel for you, Kerry. I had thought about attending my first TPF, since I was excited by the 5 Days as well. I’m still really enjoying that STTNG you sold me and I hope you have a great time!

Call me sometime and let’s discuss.

Robert —dT

Don't let the possibility that dr wont show a game TPF stop you from going. I hear this show is tremendous and hope to attend some year.

same here. I wanted to be able to see all 5 of these games at TPF and gotta be honest that it was a big part of the reason I planned to do TPF this year (great show but been the past few years and it is fun to go to a variety)

This news about DeepRoot is pretty shitty. Granted I can cancel plans, but pretty bummed this 5 days of DR is no longer happening. I guess it was to be expected based on the owners reputation for talking big.

The lesson here is "more work, less talk". Instead of doing a podcast tour making promises the whole world predicted you couldn't keep, you should have just kept your nose to the grindstone and not said anything until you were ready to launch. Now you have dinged your reputation before you have even left the gate. Not a good start. I was also thinking of heading to TPF this year and was watching airfare prices. I'm firmly in the "no" column now.

There’s more to the show than dr

What are they spending 750k per month on if they aren't manufacturing?

yes, TPF is a GREAT show!

For me personally, I have been a few times and there is only so much time in the year for shows. I will try for Pinbirgh tickets and if I miss out then TPF may be the option. I still want to hit up some west coast shows also some year.

A big draw of TPF for me was the fun of being there to witness the 5 new games. DR talked a big talk, but w/o them it makes it easier on me to not go (also was unable to get tourney tics before the sell out and that is something I would have wanted to do)

No, Robert does not want you to call him.

Well if they have 30+ full time creative / engineering roles, a big facility and have a bunch of off site software contractors, then that's going to get eaten up pretty quickly with payroll, rent, power etc. I suspect people are working a ton of overtime, too, and I doubt the salaries are low, or they wouldn't have relocated to San Antonio, or taken the risk on another pinball start up. On top of all that they have to get ready for production - dunno if that's included in this figure or whether it's just their rolling monthly costs - and that's going to cost millions if they're really serious about building more machines than Stern. Then there's all the licensing and legal fees. Closer to production they're going to need parts inventory into the millions, some of which may already be on order and partially paid for, and payroll will explode once they've either hired assembly staff or filled the roles with temps.

What’s concerning is they won’t even say when they will be ready which to me means that they are no where even close and seriously we all thought 5 titles at once; never going to happen ever. How many games has JJP come out with since inception 4 and they’ve been around how many years; not to mention they have someone there as toxic as JPOP; who is just a scum bag and steals people’s money

I'm not holding my breath here, but I'm cautiously optimistic about this. I hope they deliver on their promises, and that the market can bare the quantity of machines they are saying they will be pushing.

It seems highly unlikely that with the amount of money invested, the legitimate facilities that people have seen, the amount of known and proven talent (sans jpoop) on the payrolls, and the time committed (3 years or so at this point), that this thing is all an elaborate masquerade by some huckster. It's more of an aggressive, brute-force, blitzkrieg into pinball manufacturing. Unless it's an elaborate ponzi scheme and/or money laundering scheme, but why pinball, and not something else far more mainstream to fleece far more plentiful and willing investors looking for their next get-rich-quick plan?

I wish them good luck, and am hoping to see what comes of all of this. They have perennial designers on staff of some of the most beloved machines of all times.

More pinball is always good in my book, and maybe, just maybe, this whole thing may drive prices back to sanity on the used market.

There is only one problem with deeproot IMO... words are free, hype is free, everything they have given us has been free so far... gobble gobble gobble... its all just words darling, creating a buzz and so far, depending on what camp you are in, this is either the buzz of the flys circling the shit storm, or its the buzz of something great on the horizon, not sure which is the true reality anymore. I want pinball to succeed, just not sure deeproot has the answers.

So they are burning $75k a month right now (according to their mouthpiece) to generate a buzz (if nothing else) and they are missing their first big promised reveal at TPF... and JPop is associated with this whole thing, and you don't think it is time to start reading the writting on the wall, the tea leaves in the cup, and smell the dookie wafting up from between your toes? Because if you have put any money into this adventure, you may have stepped into a big stinking pile of god knows what.

Time will tell, but thats kind of a hollow overused statement in the pinball industry.

Add a zero.

They haven't opened preorders, taken clients money, or make any announcements on what exactly they are working on, and what machines they will release. So at this point it's a business teasing (a bit too much IMO) on a future release who says how much they spend to show they are serious about it.

so if it comes out, great, we'll see what games they produce, and if it doesn't then no harm done except to their investors who hopefully knew what they were getting into.

In any case that approach is less harmful to the community at least for now until they start taking preorders money following the reveal.

It must have come out of thin air then.

I've also heard with the right fertilizer, it will also grow on trees.

Is that what you're working on with the avocado grove now?