New York, NY
Quoted from benheck:He should lay off the drunk posting though.
He is!
Also, as long as we have the Germans, this thread will never be an echo chamber!
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Alice in Wonderland
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Magic Girl
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
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Quoted from Roostking:There is an owners thread?
What do they own?
Quoted from No_Pickles:What’s taking so long?
U L certification
How could we have known?
Rationality
Who needs it, we have Pinbar
Where truth goes to die
Preorder money
For RAZA, not for food truck
Has cool mechs and stuff
Didn't Start Fire!
there's trouble in the Suez!
parts barge is delayed
Quoted from Concretehardt:Looks like another 2 weeks and everything will be back on track
[quoted image]
This barge continues to captivate me. Doubly so because I got a cargo van stuck in 2 inches of snow over the weekend.
Quoted from Oaken:https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/03/cargo-ship-stuck-in-the-suez-canal-children-have-ideas-for-how-to-move-it.html
My favorite is “everyone should just grab a rope and pull”
It really is comical to see that photo of that gigantic ship with that tiny tractor trying to dig it out.
They are gonna have to send in a salvage crew to take all those containers off to lighten this thing up. Nuts.
Quoted from Zablon:If we pool all our pinball monies, it'd probably be cheaper to just dig a new canal than unstuck that ship.
I'm 100% in on a non-refundable pre-order spot on a new Suez Canal bypass.
Quoted from benheck:Really there's nothing they should say. Actions speak louder than words, their goal should be getting the games made.
And yes we joke about thr Suez canal but truth is manufacturing is rough right now. Can't blame that one on Jpop.
It's cool they freed the ship!
Quoted from TreyBo69:What are the odds Stern swipes the Goonies license because it will take deeproot forever to get to it? They could at least strong arm them and drive up the license cost as a return for all the shit talking and publicly calling out their employees in advertising material.
If Stern wanted the Goonies license they'd have it.
I don't understand why anybody thinks Deep Root actually has this license, or for that matter, The Who. There's zero evidence they actually do.
People don't seem to realize it's not easy nor cheap to get licenses. That's why Stern is the best at it - they've been doing it for 30 years, they have people working for them who have relationships and experience and are good at this. They have the resources to lock down the licenses people actually want, over and over and over.
You don't just wave your wand and "get" a license. And once you manage to secure one you don't just sit on it for 10 years or however long it takes you to actually make a game. These things have a shelf life.
Quoted from Goonie:Whaaaa? How dare you sir!
CHESTA COPPAPOT!!!
I saw the movie recently.
Fun nostalgic trip down memory lane but it wasn’t exactly as thrilling as a 46-year old as it was for an 11-year old seeing it with friends in the theater. Pretty sure I’ll go at least another 35 years before I see it again.
If this is the “mega 80s movie license hint hint back to the future” that they promised I’m not too impressed. I don’t think this one would be much of a needle-mover.
Quoted from Bublehead:I always thought a Pink Floyd pin would be a "needle mover" back in the 90's but not that much anymore. It might hit a nerve initially, but it's not going to move more machines than any other rock band pin IMHO. Thought the same about a Who pin with a retro throw-back to the Wizard machine, with new layout, rules, might again bump the needle, but send it into the stratosphere? Probably not. Now do a Pixar Incredibles machine and give it the full on Avengers treatment or a Toy Story, skipping the woefully horrible 4th installment... that might work... how about Olaf's Frozen Pinball Adventure? Were the damn thing belts out a verse of "Let it Go" every 10 minutes in attract mode? What father of a young female child could resist that request from the Christmas wish list? God, grant me the calmness to find my revolver so I can silence the things I can, shoot the things I can't, and the wisdom to know that unplugging the damn thing might have been a better option.
Bubble we gonna have to disagree on this. Note I stopped reading after you were done talking about Pink Floyd.
Pink Floyd is probably the biggest rock band of all time; that goes without saying. The sheer massive, consistent volume of albums they moved - and CONTINUE to move; one after the other. The entire 1970s into 1980. And their music is legendary, and even deep cuts are sick slabs of classic rock. David Gilmour is the greatest rock guitarist of all time. His licks, his phrasing, his tone and FX simply define classic rock and always will. Nobody ever changes the station when a Floyd song - ANY Floyd song - is playing.
Floyd would be a PERFECT license for an upstart "boutique" company that will be selling top tier price games to fewer people. THis is the JJP model taken to the extreme, and the polar opposite of Stern. Floyd would be a monster hit for any company, but surely it would bring the most increased degree of attention to an upstart.
It would be like COMET LEDs somehow scoring a Super Bowl commercial.
We all know if games actually start coming off the line, it'll be slow as molasses. Like Spooky making "Haunted" speed. So they better be able to have a huge preorder list and just churn an expensive title out for years. Food Truck ain't gonna do that, beyond the morbid curiousity seekers. Floyd would be like Alien, a license that was simply irresistible to the hardcores and makes plenty of people abandon caution and throw money into the void.
Into the Floyd Void.
Look I'll be brutally honest and bold here, and without reservation or clause state:
If an upstart company - say, Deeproot - were to score the FLoyd license;
and I mean actually get it, and prove they have it, they don't even need to make a game;
I would have to shut the fuck up forever and I would most certainly have to take a seat when it comes to any and all matters Deep Root.
Quoted from Bublehead:Oh Crazy, I love ya, and I'm right there with you on Pink Floyd the band, one of my favorites as well, I've seen them 4 times in concert, I have the gold CD versions of Darkside and WYWH... the whole box set, etc... etc..., I even have a reject letter from their management (somewhere) when I tried to submit a t-shirt graphic for use during the Momentary Lapse tour. Love the band, but like you, I would be in line for one if they make one. I just don't think there is much hope of getting the license, or how well it will sell against the saturated rock band pin market... you may be right to quote Billy Joel, or you may be Crazy... Levi your post made me lol by the way....
Do you think it pisses Billy Joel off that Elton has a pinball machine and he doesn't?
I mean, it's fun to think so, but Billy's fat ass strikes me as one that hasn't given a shit about anything since probably the Carter Administration.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:How old is that documentary? Joel was a raging drunk for years if not decades, which probably fueled his ass-holery. Dude drunk drove his car into the houses of multiple people on Long Island. Multiple.
I think he’s been sober now for years and I wonder if he’s mellowed and less of a dick? I only care in as much as The Stranger was the second album I ever had and I wore out the grooves. I lost track of Joel outside of his hits once I discovered KROQ.
I’ll bring this back around to Spinal Tap. Why hasn’t this been made? Cult classic - so a cult following - that still touched a mainstream vein (“these go to 11”). A treasure trove of one liners and concept ideas. LCD movie clips would be hysterical. Great music (I mean it, great). I’m dead to rights sure the license would be gettable and affordable. AND, I’m pretty sure the guys - none of them exactly pop culture kings these days - would participate in the creative process (ala Slash).
Get it done JJP! This, honestly, would be my only “take my money” now theme. Sight unseen and playfield chipping be damned.
I’m in for a “None More Black” LE
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:I didn’t mean to suggest they aren’t successful. Or busy. They are all successful by any measure. Just that their current popularity level doesn’t seem like it would be “fuck you, don’t you know who I am?”.
They’re older now and might appreciate one last opportunity to inject the spirit of Spinal Tap into the culture. With the evolving demographics of pinball, it might be a fair opportunity to turn an entire new generation on to Spinal Tap.
How about a mode where you’re the drummer, and you see how long you can go (shots or combos you can make) before you spontaneously combust into a little green globule!? Lol.
Or a mini mode where you see how many people you can fit onto a King leisure bed?
A video mode where you need to find the stage? Or find Nigel’s gum?
Two words: Jazz Odyssey.
Those guys also HAVE to do a Spinal Tap project every 5 years or so to protect their copyright. Some crazy deal with the defunct studio that put out the movie. Could be good timing !
Quoted from wrb1977:It would be nice if the pinball community, that claims to love this hobby, would be supportive of anyone having the balls to try to build a new game for “us” and not be so damn critical and holier than thou.
It would be nice if obnoxious rich newbies didn't announce themselves by throwing a bunch of money around while talking shit about EVERYBODY in the industry and hobby for years, for reasons that I don't think anybody yet understands. If that's "balls" I think I'll just go with ovaries on this one.
I just don't understand how this can be any fun for a rich guy at this point.
The whole reason people want to be rich is so they dont have to take any shit, and can dole out as much shit as they want without consequence.
And yet here we are. RM catching all sorts of shots from the types of lowly schlubs who he'd release the hounds upon if they popped up within 2 miles of his driveway gate.
I mean...even Cary Hardy has turned on him? Am I hearing that right?
I'm thinking you guys might be right. The search for an off ramp could be in full swing.
Quoted from Mr68:[quoted image]
I’m wearing a cardboard belt!!!
Quoted from RobT:"And now RAZA..." I would replace RAZA with Deeproot for clarity, because RAZA was already previously a failure along with Magic Girl (and AIW etc.) as part of Zidware. Or maybe RAZA failure #1 and RAZA failure #2.
If Deeproot is really offering buyers a chance to get a refund, why would anybody stay in at this point? All I can think of:
1) They are willing to take a gamble in the hopes of getting a rare game that they can flip for a big profit
2) They like the theme so much they are willing to take a chance (or have their head in the sand and honestly believe the BS that they are being fed by RM...one buyer posted that he appreciated their "transparency.")
3) I got ahead of myself here. There is no #3.
some people are just in too deep.
I mean, guys like Ice, getting ripped off on pinball scams is practically their trademark, their identity..."I have so much money I actually ENJOY having it stolen by pinball scammers, lol lol bwahahaha..."
You know the old saying..."if you have to ask when you are getting your game or what ASOA is doing with your $20,000 in imaginary Alien funds, you can't afford it."
Quoted from benheck:John is very good at mocking up the "impression" of a game. If you're an investor or rich dude who doesn't understand mechanics then yes, it looks like a pinball machine.
If anything I'd feel sorry for Steve. He's probably getting little useful info from John on how his bizarre game works (remember old school designers don't give a SHIT about code) and then he has to work with a programmer with no pinball experience.
Steve is a great guy and I'm sure he's doing the best he can with what he has to work with.
The problem is, once you are using software tweaks to address a shitty playfield design (IE: increasing scoring/incentive for ramp shots that fail halfway and fall into the pops unless the front leg levelers are jacked up to a laughable state) the war is already lost.
Games like Walking Dead or X-men that were terrible when they came out due to code at least had good playfield layouts already in place, and the software guys were able to catch up later on.
1 week later
Rob's got a nice collection. Cool to see a Space Mission in there sometimes the noobs don't give much thought to the old stuff!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Sadly, it would appear the deeproot family has sent this beloved slogan to the trademark orphanage
[quoted image]
https://trademarks.justia.com/875/31/every-family-needs-a-pinball-every-pinball-needs-a-87531117.html
In that case I'm claiming this slogan as my own.
Like the musician who tried to claim "Prince" when Prince became Symbol guy.
Quoted from pookycade:RM: Quad Assembly will provide rapid and dynamic on-demand manufacturing abilities that current pinball manufacturers will have a hard time to match. We’ll be able to throttle and provide process fluctuations with flexible distribution. Following this concept allows for cross-functional staffing resulting in higher productivity and decreased manufacturing costs.
If I threw words into a blender I couldn’t come up with a more non-sensical and meaningless series of sentences than that.
I think they teach you this bullshit in millionaire school.
It’s agile technology!
Quoted from Mbecker:Actually not entirely accurate— I believe the plan is to ship the games direct to customers ON the backs of unicorns. Some delays have come up in sourcing enough of them unfortunately but they are still looking
I believe the unicorns will be doing delivery AND setup.
I think that's what they mean by "dynamic cross-functional staffing."
1 week later
Quoted from aingide:If your product can't make it past the gauntlet of a few loudmouths on Pinside there's no way you've got what it takes to survive, let alone thrive, as a business. If a game is actually released (and is good!) the scrutiny here has no power and they'll make millions.
Look at American Pinball; plenty of people (including me) talked shit about their clumsy opening moves, so what did they do? Berate us all for practicing law without a license and make veiled legal threats? Launch a "charm offensive" of endless and obnoxious, antagonistic interviews? Make promise after promise that they knew they'd never be able to keep?
Naw...they just kept their fuckin' mouths shut, kept their focus, and produced THREE viable commercial/home pinball machines without stealing anybody's money in a surprisingly timely manner. Novel concept, ain't it?
1 week later
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Darn it, time for another poll.
'Are you going to buy Food Truck or the Mandalorian?
Food Truck has really taken on a life of its own.
I have a feeling if this game was ever actually released it would do pretty well. And not just among the Germans!
Pinside has Food Truck Fever and doesn't even realize it.
2 weeks later
Quoted from gonzo73:So that's two comuniques from Deeproot that are practically begging the preorder people to take a refund!?
He really does not want to build these games.
That's crystal clear, right?
The people he's begging to ask for refunds are the exact same people least likely to request them: Those insane enough to send money, sign an NDA and release for future buffoonery....
This tactic is just going to make these people more entrenched. At some point he's going to have to force people to accept non-negotiable refunds.
Quoted from benheck:Well remember we are dealing with egotist narcissists here - whatever happens will be the COMMUNITY'S fault, not theirs.
"The community sadly didn't show the support we needed to continue" - that's a coping mechanism to avoiding dealing with the fact YOU are the problem.
Oh and John. Especially John. Seriously, can we get rid of that guy for good now?
We will never truly be rid of john.
Once deep root collapses there’s going to be a chorus of pinsiders begging someone - ANYONE - to hire him. Someone will be desperate enough for attention to do it. The next Suncoast perhaps?
“He just needs to be managed!”
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I’m staying in. The update was trash. If they get machines out at all my best guess would be 4th quarter.
Gonna be ride or die with it though. Guess we’ll see.
The guy who owns the company is practically BEGGING you to take a refund.
Are you sure about this? I know it's been an exciting rollercoaster ride, but maybe it's time to get off while the park is still open?
Quoted from seenev:Everyday I walk up to my JP Premium and ask "Where is the Pinbar?"
Just yesterday I embarked on a disastrous and ill-fated attempt to enter "switch test" mode that ended with me losing a finger, and realized that if only I had a pinbar I could have done it easily and painlessly. I don't even want to think about turning Extra Balls off...I'm not a nuclear engineer!
Quoted from benheck:Recall the video of Robert explaining his system to the Deep Six as if they knew nothing about pinball. He's done this song and dance so much it's in his muscle memory.
That was right before "Does the pinpod fit through a doorway?" threw him off his game!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Because maybe some people who placed orders did because they liked the PinBar?
Nobody likes the PinBar.
2 weeks later
Reminds me of Danny Devito's line in War of the Roses...
"How do you make someone go who won't leave?
How do you keep someone who won't stay?"
It's almost like Deep Root could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and people would still send them money.
Quoted from jawjaw:Exactly. I never met anyone that loves pissing away money and doesn't care if they get ripped off.
Take a trip down to Boerne, Texas sometime! I got just the guy for you.
Quoted from cosmokramer:If food truck is such an awful theme, can someone explain the popularity of Diner?
It’s become super popular as some kind of bastion of “political incorrectness.” It’s also a fantastic game for countless “home bars” with nostalgia themes.
With Barry O in charge there’s a good chance it’ll fit with the politically incorrect crowd. But how many Mancaves / home bars are crying out for a food truck theme? Doesn’t really seem to fit.
Quoted from aeneas:Diner is pretty popular with the non-pinball public that just want a pinball machine for their gameroom.
I know some shops that sell diner furniture, jukeboxes, .. and they often have a Diner (or Elvis) pinball machine for sale at heavily marked up price.
Diner fits like a glove in any nostalgic home entertainment situation.
Food truck doesn’t.
Who has fond, nostalgic memories of time they spent with friends at food trucks? Who wants their basement bar or mancave to remind people of a food truck? Who takes their family every sunday after church for lunch at a food truck? How many memorable, popular, nostalgic films or TV shows have been made where food trucks figure prominently? (I can think of one movie I've seen where a food truck is a major setting. It's a Dutch Paul Verhoven film called "Spetters" and it features many penises and gay rape scenes. It's not gonna help sell a lot of pinball machines.)
Total apples and oranges situation. Not sure why people have been trying to make this comparison for a year.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Wow. Here’s a much more family friendly food truck movie. (Really it’s just Jon Favreau food Instagram porn for two hours)
[quoted image]
Dear lord, it looks awful!
Gonna have to go with Spetters on this one!
Quoted from vdojaq:Please , by all means, provide us with those sales numbers.
Dialed in sold so shitty that they have considered a retheme for it. Doesn't mean it will happen, but it was on the table.
I was told it sold "only 1,000."
I thought that seemed like plenty! But I guess not in the high stakes world of NIB pinball sales.
Quoted from spfxted:How many Dead Hookers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
......At least 6 because my basement's still dark!
It's funny cause it's true
Speaking of Money Pits....Christ that movie is fucking awful!
We tried watching it early in the pandemic and had to bail after 45 minutes.
Maybe that's the "80s movie license" they have lined up?!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I miss Robert shit talking about how everybody sucks and he's awesome.
"Pinball is easy" has to get top billing on his tombstone, as well as the first line of his obit.
Quoted from pinlink:Hasn't Haggis only shipped like 3 Celts games so far?
True,
But they’ve managed to do it without being raging assholes everybody wants to see fail, so I guess they get a little credit for that as well.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I'm surprised to hear myself say this, but I think deeproot should have taken the large art/dev studio they built and go full steam into something like developing a P3 game. They probably still could. Even if that's not a long term thing, it at least gets them over the manufacturing hurdle for a bit.
It's a great idea. The P3 guys have been way too successful in churning out games for their platform, what they need to do is get in bed with Deep Root and have everything crash to a grinding, costly halt.
Ha welcome back buddy !
(I’m not convinced it’s Corny. But it’a SOMEBODY back for a second or third tour of duty. Nobody goes from lurker to this verbose, dull, and repetitive overnight!)
“Gee I’m just a long time lurker who has never posted here before on pinside. By the way I’ve been keeping tabs on all of you for 10 years, I know everything about you, and 2 days ago I suddenly decided to emerge from my shell become a raging turbo poster!! Lucky you!”
Quoted from NicerSoul:Deleted post
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson: Then you open the thread and discover the boring reality. Highly disappointing.
That’s deep root for ya!
Quoted from Makakka:With todays spooky reveal deeproot looks old and rotten. I clearly expect more dropouts if the next update is not announcing immediate production/smoking quads.
When you’ve lost the Germans, you’ve truly lost Pinside.
They’ve been the most solid block of deep root proponents...and now jumping ship?!
Quoted from oliviarium:Seems that with Spooky, FOMO is before you can actually get in your order. With deeproot, its after you order
I do hope deeproot is eventually able to pull it off and actually deliver some games... but uh... wow is this a depressing comedy so far.
In soviet Russia, FOMO gets YOU!
Quoted from benheck:As I've said many, many times the LCD adds a HUGE "content liability" to a pin's development.
It also blows out the hardware requirements. You could, no joke, run everything a pin needs on the guts of an Amazon Dash button.... Except for the video.
Yes it’s a huge time and resources sink for developers.
It was inevitable and unavoidable but LCD def the worst thing to happen to pinball in recent memory. The display is really one of the least important aspects of a pinball machine, yet it now requires the greatest expenditure of time and resources.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:LCDs are awesome and, in my opinion, required today.
DMD art is a cop-out these days. Make the investment and make me some badass LCD animations and stuff.
Who are you berating exactly?
All pinball machines are LCD now.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Robert still owes free tshirts from his hammer tested stunt
https://www.facebook.com/deeprootpinball/posts/121889826297419
Is the QUALITY of your Pinball WOOD Playfield important to you?
We at deeproot Pinball take wood playfield quality so seriously we are going to back it up with a hammer test and a warranty: if it leaves a mark, it doesn’t ship. As such, all of our playfields will proudly bear the Hammer Tested (TM) trademark. In honor (and anticipation) of the first public mark-free hammer test on wood, we want your help featuring some crazy quotes about how dimples and marks are normal in our public launch!
We will send a free limited run deeproot Hammer Tested (TM) T-Shirt (featuring this logo) to the first 50 deeproot fans who qualify by emailing ([email protected]) a PUBLICLY AVAILABLE quote, statement, or policy of a company, personality, or forum moniker, where they state or imply that pits, dimples, cracks, pools, ghosting, etc. is normal, expected, or inevitable with a wood playfield.
To qualify: The quote must be unique (first received), accurate, publicly verifiable, not confidential, in quotes as a direct quote, and should be limited to no more than 2-3 sentences. Your email must also contain source material type (i.e. printed material, website forum, or hosted video) and cite the company, personality, or forum moniker. We'll be in touch with all qualified participants and plan to ship the T-Shirts in early October! No purchase necessary. Void where prohibited.
PLEASE DO NOT post any quote here (as a comment) as it will not qualify.
Hammer Tested (TM) quality coming soon from deeproot Pinball!
LMAO...another classic...if I recall a couple clever folks thought some quotes from yours truly was gonna get repurposed to get them a free T-shirt.
In the end the "hammer proof clear coat" turned out to have a texture akin to orbiter 1 and it was abandoned, never to be heard from again.
"I went to Texas for the disastrous VIP Six Deep Root reveal and all I didn't even get was that lousy t-shirt!"
Of course there’s customers for a goonies
Machine, they found buyers for teenage mutant turtles, right?
Nostalgia is fun and cute but I gotta draw the line somewhere. Saw goonies for first time in 30 years during pandemic, and while it is quality filmmaking it’s DEFINITELY a kids movie. I’d be pretty embarrassed to have one in the game room.
Can we all just admit that we love Food Truck now?
I really think this could be Deep Root's big breakthrough. Maybe just give up on RAZA and give the people what they want.
I honestly believe Food Truck would be a decent seller. At least compared to RAZA (I know, I know).
Quoted from valgalder:Something like Food Truck could be interesting if they made the game actually full of good humor (like a lot of old Bally/Williams games)... but then again what was the last game that was actually funny? Seems like that's been lost long ago...and if they do try and interject comedic elements it seems awfully forced..
It really seems like effective humor in pinball died with Bally/Williams.
Though I haven't spent much time with the new Elvira. I do enjoy the fact that it's got an anal sex joke right on a playfield plastic!!! (that's gotta be a first...and people say there's no innovation!)
Quoted from benheck:It's really missing in pinball I agree. I really like the new Elvira but I wouldn't call it funny per se.
Even if it has amazing art, humor and mechs Food Truck is still a dumb cel phone app meme theme. There's no fantasy, no wish fulfillment.
As for humor, I've read Bowden's RAZA stuff. It's awful. Maybe rules are great but the writing isn't. You need the fast, clever and terse humor like "Come on in and let's take this outside!" or "Let's get married so we can have an divorce!".... Course Second City people worked on that game, not just a guy who was good at playing pinball.
Whatever is going on at DR it's running on sheer ego and hubris. They spent 20+ million and RAZA couldn't outsell AMH.... which we spent maybe 50k making. FAIL!
Yeah the alien princess “who is like totally over this invasion thing” isn’t exactly
Tickling the funny bone.
Quoted from Makakka:Your post is criminal.
Yeah someone set up a tribunal!
Quoted from Mr68:Supposed to be an announcement on Monday from Deeproot. I still think these games are eventually going to be made and I'm keeping a good thought for the Zidware and pre-order people. They sure have paid their dues in more ways than one.
It’s so sad that after all this time, heartbreak, and struggle, their reward would be....a RAZA.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Something is better than nothing for sure. But even if they would deliver RAZA's who would order from this company in the future after all this ? I think the goose is cooked either way.
As Ben says - closure is needed. Someway, somehow. Would be nice if Zidware refugees got something.
The “Zidware refugees” were already - miraculously - offered refunds. Many of them accepted this gift from the gods.
Others apparently slipped in the shower that week and hit their heads, and decided they’d just let it ride.
Hard to buy into the “won’t somebody think of the refugees” storyline at this point.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think the most telling thing was when they said they'd make some extra units to sell at a higher price, and then later cancelled those. I think that was them trying to stop the bleeding because even the higher price point wasn't enough to cover the actual cost to build these things.
Much like JPop, they picked an arbitrary price before understanding what the actual BOM was or what the overhead of a factory would be.
It's still wild to think of how much money they spent developing titles and getting licenses they had no chance to build
I think there is the potential to be a third party developer in the industry, much like in the video game industry, but this is not how to go about it. Joe Kamikow and Dennis Nordman have done it with Stern, Scott Danesi fell into it with Spooky, it looks like Riot is going to do it with American Pinball, and Multimorphic has had a few people write software games for their modules. The key difference is those are small operations who understand what manufacturers want.
I doubt they actually spent any money on licenses yet, that just seems like more Deep Root bullshit.
We really think they actually paid money and secured The Who or Goonies? I don't know man.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I agree he had no intention of doing so, despite him setting up a full fledged design studio while ignoring the manufacturing part and thinking his prototyping lab could get it done.
Robert is a lawyer. While there is speculation of how good of a lawyer he is, you'd think he would be smart enough to not have marketing material like this on his company website
https://deeprootpinball.com/about/upcoming-games
[quoted image]
He danced around saying they had The Goonies. Maybe he explicitly said he did in a podcast somewhere, but I no longer remember. TWIP has the original pitch deck with the "Hey You Guys" teaser, but it is not on the company website (or was scrubbed at some point).
It doesn't say "The Who (tm)" like every Stern hype blurb. I wonder why!
I am, however, really looking forward to those "unique mechs" which I'm sure have been conceived, designed, and tested!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Was not there drama when an aggrieved dutch pinball customer reached out to universal pictures about the status of the big Lebowski license?
I think that was Predator.
Spoiler alert: he didn't have the license!
Difference was of course they were actually selling pinball machines. I'm not sure Deep Root would really be doing anything wrong at this point since they aren't building or selling Who pinball machines?
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Let me help you out here: NOTHING is going on at DeepRoot.
Yeah one of my favorite parts of this thread is when someone who never checks the thread comes in, berates us all for going "off topic," and demands to know the latest Deep Root news.
Like they couldn't just read a page or two of this thread and figure out that the answer is "jack shit?"
Quoted from iceman44:4 cars in the parking lot. Tuesday at 3:30
Spread around in shade spots
Riveting.
Quoted from Lounge:Did you knock on the door?
Someone's waiting for you
where the bullshit is hers and hers and his
Deep Root Company too!
Quoted from clempo:I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see an explosion in the number of posts indicating actual news, but nada. Just more posts like this one. Carry on folks.
Yes, once per page someone makes this post.
If you want to visit a thread discussing actual news about the production of an actual pinball machine, you really should just not come here any more.
This is all we've got for you. This is all we'll ever have for you.
Quoted from Mr68:Iceman posted this in the other thread just a few hours ago. Looks like he's a shill for Deeproot.
I don't really care but I'm laughing at the irony of him accusing me as being one many years ago for Jpop.
Everybody who throws out the lame "shill" slams has a history of shilling themselves. I call it the "Whysnow Rule."
I am curious as to why Stern's brutal stranglehold on the supply chain is only affecting Deep Root, and not the other 8 pinball machine manufacturers of various size who don't seem to be having any trouble.
Curious indeed!
Quoted from Mr68:The only thing this thread needs now is a car chase and a sex scene.
It could use a big musical number.
And I have to say the idea of a “legal battle over RAZA IP” is one of the funniest things I’ve seen in this thread.
Putting it instantly in the running for one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on pinside.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Question for the legal eagles since we've seen not paying employees alleged several times: Isn't that illegal?
Probably legal in Texas.
Quoted from benheck:I'd blow my own brains out first.
So you’re saying there’s a chance gif
Quoted from EricHadley:20 new pages since I was here last. Can’t read through all that carp. Any real news here
No, just a bunch of gefilte fish recipes.
I honestly don’t care what else happens.
If I ever get to flip an actual Food Truck in any stage of development, I will personally consider the Deep Root project to be an unconditional success.
So wait, is it official?
Is it Black Friday?
Is it Deep Root Tits Up Day?
Or is this just all idle speculation?!
Also, I haven't really kept up with this thread. Does anybody know how RAZA shoots? Where can I play one?
Anybody who follows my work here knows I'm fond of saying "if Pinside ran Stern, they'd be out of business in a month."
Deep Root is that ethos embodied in real life. An enterprise completely detached from not only reality itself, but what pinball buyers actually want. Deep Root took seriously the fanciful flights of your noobiest of noobs, claiming they want "innovation" when all they really want is meat and potatoes pinball.
As soon as things like the "PinBar" entered the picture - useless "innovation" with poor real world application, just for the sake of innovating - this enterprise was doomed. Nonsense like this isn't actually "pinball," and there's no need or even want for stuff like this in the pinball marketplace. Basing an entire pinball company on the warped premise of "innovation" was always doomed to failure. Nobody really wants or needs "innovation" in pinball in 2021, they just want good games that actually exist and are fun to play. Pinball flipper games have been around for 70 years, and at this point, we know what works for players, operators, and the industry itself.
So I guess I have to amend my earlier statement....if Pinside built a pinball company from the ground up, with seemingly unlimited resources, and ran it according the whims of Pinside's most "innovative" thinkers...they'd be out of business in....what is it, four years?
Doesn't roll off the tongue quite as nicely, but it still rings true.
So next time you are chastising Stern for not including four animatronic ewoks in their latest Star Wars pin, or lamenting the lack of a playfield fog machine, or 3 lower playfields, or self adjusting leg levelers and 12 flipper buttons...just try to remember: it's a business, not a fantasy.
Fantasy always is more appealing than reality, but reality pays the bills, keeps people employed, and puts games in our basements. Try to remember that.
Quoted from flynnibus:Meh - what they put in a game or not isn't what sank this company. They never operated like they need to pay their own bills - no one ever survives long with that model.
The time and resources they spent on the PinBar could have easily equaled one released actual functional pinball machine.
The time and resources spent developing and producing the hydraulic playfield glass system? There's another actual functional pinball machine.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:At this point, I'm feeling like we won't be hearing from him about any of this for quite a while, if ever at all.
There’s no way a blow hard like Rob doesn’t cash out with one last spectacular “fuck you” to all of us.
Quoted from NoQuarters:I am floored that a few people STILL think that somehow they will get games and things will be alright. Guess it's rationalization or a coping mechanism that they threw away their money. Or they say, "Oh it was a gamble I was willing to take" - really ? I said it before, they should have just bought several raffle tickets for pinball for kids charities. Much better odds of getting a game. Really blows my mind some paid in full - one guy said he bought two in advance ! Mind boggling. And on top of it all is what was shown in the prototype was not that good - mediocre at best, and following all the red flags from the start and the principles involved. Holy smokes.
Or how about buying project pinball raffle tickets with all that money?
You know, a gamble they actually had a chance to win?
Quoted from hank527:John Spartan.
Let's go blow this guy!
I do kinda think trolling the "owner" thread is a little out of bounds. That's a safe space for those folks, if they want to come in for abuse they can come by here any time.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:This should be more of a time to stick together, rather than sharpening our pitchforks for each other. We will probably know in a week or so whether this is "really" over, or just another speedbump in the endless DR drama.
Either way a bit of civility is the least anybody should be able to expect. I am not perfect for sure, but I also don't expect any thank you cards for playing the "I told you so, look at how smart I am" card.
The problem with this is its not “I told you so, I’m smart,” it’s “I told you so, but literally any idiot could have seen what’s coming. A 9-year old German Shepard probably could have figured out sending deep root money was a bad idea. A cabbage realized this.”
It’s less of a brag and more of a sense of shock and disbelief.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Why would not getting signoff on one character for one of your five hundred titles sink your entire company or prevent you from putting out Raza, food truck, or the other 496 titles? It wouldn't. But maybe it's something you say to explain why the doors have to shut (temporarily, of course)
I don’t think that’s supposed to be a cause of their failure, more just an (absolutely hilarious) symptom of their general ineptitude.
Did I mention it’s hilarious?
Quoted from valgalder:I mean, this was from nearly a year ago.. jesus:
[quoted image]
Edit: forgot this:[quoted image]
Joke is on this employee - it took a year, not "three months tops" for them to go tits up!
He's got egg on his face for sure!
Quoted from benheck:You know, believe it or not, I do have some empathy for John.
Narrator: We do not believe it.
Quoted from benheck:Hey don't push Cary too hard guys.
If this was a year ago he'd have been served by now.
I'm not sure what it is, but that dude is definitely practicing SOMETHING without a license!
Quoted from NoQuarters:Yup - Holy cow. There are a few that won't believe it without a official death certificate. The only thing that is far from over is coming to grips with the realization their monies spent are gone. Probably doesn't help one guy keeps telling them there's a chance that Jesus or somebody is going to resurrect this version of zidware 2.0 / rootfungus or buy it, contract it or some other horse hockey. Nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole. Jpop and Root have so much stench and stink. And the Raza game stunk too to start with. What are people thinking ? Dumpster fire and trainwreck all in one.
People were saying the same thing about Magic Girl. "The owners will collaborate and get this game finished!!!"
THey got traded around for a few months steadily losing value and creating depressing, anticlimatic streams where you could see the "lucky owners'" souls die a little with each stuck ball on this turkey they'd just laid out $20K for...and that was kind of the last we heard of it.
Some thing, while possible, are just never going to happen. You would have to redesign these lemons from the ground up to ever turn them into something as dazzling as Breakshot, and it's never going to happen.
Quoted from benheck:We need to stage an intervention before this GreatWich guy tries to become the 4th savior of Zidware.
Take the advice Robert didn't in 2015. When everyone tells you something is a bad idea, IT'S A BAD IDEA!
Greatwich isn't really cut out for it, I think you need a ton of money to burn, and besides, he'd be getting involved for all the wrong reasons (ie: making the world's greatest pinball machine). For this kind of project, you have to actually enjoy losing money on pinball scams and making sure everybody knows that you were fully invested in a pinball manufacturing failure.
Really, this is the next natural evolution for Iceman. I can't think of anybody more qualified to bring Zidware back for round # 7.
Quoted from TreyBo69:You right, I knew I was forgetting something.
Zizzle was another spectacular failure. I believe they retailed for $500...at one point Best Buy was blowing them out for 50 bucks.
I still chuckle when someone brings one of those to a pinball show for free play to get in for free. Genius!
Does anybody know the last project Jpop was involved in that actually turned a profit? I guess Star Wars Ep 1 back in 1999?
Quoted from TreyBo69:Robert's 750k/month number is three years old. That's 30m+ there. Although you gotta hope he was exaggerating, but I'm not sure anymore after seeing how big the Utah office was with numerous 6 digit salaries to do short cutscenes.
Like everything else Deep Root, I'm sure that 750k/month figure was complete bullshit, meant to impress us and show us all how the big boys do it.
I mean, I hope so anyway.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I don't like to make promises that depend on others' execution, but there will hopefully be movement on my avatar if ice's minions are handed their marching orders.
Deep Root's execution?
I'm all for it!
(I don't really want anybody dead, old quote from 70s Tampa Bay Bucs coach)
Ok I'm throwing it out there:
If someone can successfully bring Food Truck to market, I'm a buyer.
In fact, if someone can simply successfully make a convincing web page soliciting a non-refundable deposit, I'm sending you money!
Let's do this!
Quoted from Bumper:Assuming the legal issues is caused by someone else holding the RAZA license, who can it be?
* It is not wcbrandes
* It is not benheck
* Maybe the previous artist or a model who needs to be paid?
* Maybe American Pinball?
* Did JPOP sell the license to someone else?
You shouldn't be asking these questions. Your safety is in danger.
Quoted from yancy:This remains the single most batshit crazy thing I've read in my time on earth. Every few years I revisit it to see if it's as unhinged as I remember. Every time I rediscover an even more ridiculous detail I'd forgotten. Hard to fathom the amount of cocaine and chutzpah it took for Python to present this to Williams as a game they'd actually manufacture. And they sort of did!
If you've never read it, do yourself a... favor? Pull up a chair, crack open a cold one, cut a few lines on the mirror, and get inside Python's brain for a while.
Required companion piece to his legendary TOPcast interview.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:some old raza art
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
It’s so wild all three of those guys are New York pinball legends.
Quoted from benheck:A sane person would have simplified it: Zombie Adventureland. "You and your friends wander into an abandoned theme park swarming with zombies - can you escape?"
But no. John acts like a ten year old with a budget. Paying Jeremy to waste his time drawing characters he doesn't have the rights for. Adding aliens.
Even Python's batshit crazy Popeye concept was at least consistent. John just throws shit in a blender and hopes for the best.
Ha I kinda forgot about that whole thing...and all the BHZA "owners" rationalizing themselves into thinking hey it's ok we paid money for one thing and are getting something else, whatever, there's still Zombies? I think?
Quoted from benheck:Are their any zombies in the game name? All I see is a bunch of purple puke carnival crap.
Oh and AMAZING TOYS like a static jet. And a static motorcycle. And a mostly static light up NED. And some fucking alien on Yet Another TOTAN Lamp Spinner.
Curious if we will ever see Food Truck. Maybe their original games actually did feature innovation on the PF itself. Why not lead with that?
The little mini-rototarget (another "innovation" stolen from 50 year-old Williams EMs) was kind of cool, actually.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Starting to wonder if we're going to ever get another parking lot inspection. Ice should Neil Parmesan it and pull up disguised as a repo man to gauge the reaction (if anyone is there to react).
Life as a repo man is always intense.
Quoted from benheck:Wasn't Magic Girl... Magic Girl because John once again couldn't get the rights to David Copperfield?
.
I believe that was Theater of Magic.
Quoted from Bublehead:I think too many people have a more glamorized and romanticized idea of what a job in pinball is really like.
This is absolutely correct, but then people always do that when it comes to jobs they think they would do for free. Reality is altogether something different.
Quoted from starfighter:I lived across the street from a MLB Pitcher. When I asked him about playing, he said it was just a job. Grinding thru 150 days of plane flights, bus rides and hotel beds. In addition to hanging out with the crowd noise of 50,000 screaming fans all the time. He said the glamor was overrated.
No way dude! He plays a kids game! He’d do it for free!!
It’s all about the passion!
Quoted from NoQuarters:What does Ice buy into next ?
Can you imagine the line of pinball scam artists at the front door? It’s free money. And you get a free promoter for your scam to help sell it to everybody else: ie. ASOA and the fake CGC Alien.
It’s crazy it looks like the big pinbar reveal was the last ponzi cash grab. Can you imagine if it actually worked and the 90 degree edges had been filed down so as not to draw blood?
If any part of this scam (besides early publicity) had been done in any sort of competent fashion, it could have been so much worse for the pinball community. As it is now pinball people was simply the after dinner mint, not the sumptuous feast that were the “investors.”
Quoted from brucipher:When is Robert sending out a new update?? LoL
In all seriousness, sucks for everyone who lost money here. Hopefully one of these days the pinball community will learn from the past.
If they hadn’t learned already, they never will.
There will ALWAYS be people willing to “roll the dice” to get the next awesome fish tank with an iPad stapled to a lockdown bar. The allure is just too strong.
Quoted from Scandell:I know the gps coordinates of one of them.
It’s a good thing those games are wi fi enabled!
Quoted from Richthofen:I appreciate the sentiment but not exactly happy I was right. A lot of retirees lost a lot of money, and even if they were high net worth individuals, they still didn’t deserve this. And the victims of DR’s preorders, I’m crushed for them too.
Real questions; will the JPOP payouts get clawed back? Will RM take a plea? How, as a lawyer, did he not think this would happen?
I have no idea how this works. Maybe ice can weigh in.
How deep do the tentacles go when they try to claw back the stolen money? Do they go after folks like PAPA or TPF who were unwitting recipients of stolen money? The JPop buy outs like you mentioned? I would think those people are at high risk of some kind of effort to reclaim the stolen money they received to buy them out of the initial JPOP scam.
It’s small potatoes in the scheme of things but who knows. I gladly would have accepted money from RM for NYCPC if he’d offered. If he’d given us the kind of money he gave to the TPF tournament I’d would have been happy to say inane things into a hot mic like “a pinball for every home. A home for every pinball. Deep root.” So let’s just say I’m glad we dodged that bullet.
Personally, I’d be sweating balls if I had ever received a check from deep root in any capacity. Somebody is gonna come looking around for their money.
Quoted from Mr68:Jeeze dude, you make it sound like Ben and I are sleeping together. ....Thanks for the shout out.
I'm home fighting a flu and just woke up after 12 hours of restless sleep. First thing I see is the Deeproot thread had exploded and after getting the gist of things I'm feeling a lot better.
I need to digest things here a bit after just now finding out. But one thought did occur to me.
I've been puzzled for 10 or 11 months now on why Deeproot asked for the pre-order money at the last minute. It seems now it wasn't enough to screw just the investors and the government. He got in one last dig and screwed his own customers on his way out the door. Pretty shameful.
More to it than that really. Probably a last-gasp effort to appear “legit” legally and provide cover for the scam. “Look! We are selling pinball machines!” Way too little way too late obviously.
The fact that it allowed him to steal another relatively small amount of money probably
Just the cherry on top. The preorder money was Super small potatoes in the scheme of this scam.
Quoted from iceman44:It was NOT a complete and utter scam from the beginning.
The Raza Jpop story was OVER years ago until DR stepped in and made it a possibility again.
It didn’t work out. Pinball is just part of a MUCH bigger story here.
Speechless.
Quoted from spinal:I’ve hear octo is twice as efficient as quad production.
Octoponzi
Quoted from iceman44:Are you threatening me?
ice (resized).jpgQuoted from TheFamilyArcade:What’s hard for Kaneda?
Spinal, obviously.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Can someone please archive the Deeproot website while it's still up for posterity?
https://deeprootpinball.com
Don't worry, that shit will live forever over at the Blueberry Institute.
Quoted from Stemmy:Bernie didn't start off with bad intentions either.
Everybody who makes any kind of implication like this is still under the thrall of a con man.
This was a con from day 1. By the time he made his first obnoxious interview to Pinball News, he was already stealing money from little old ladies.
Quoted from Stemmy:I was being sarcastic. This was a complete con job.
I have a feeling Ice isn't being sarcastic!
I've been waiting till now to bring this up:
How much investor/pinball $ do we think RM put into the touch ups for his facebook profile photo?
You know the one where he looks 100 pounds lighter than reality?
Scandrell probably knows: Was this project delegated to the animation department or contracted to an expensive outside studio?
Quoted from flynnibus:That money was handled in normal good faith activities by the llc so no one is coming after zidware refunds or tpf sponsor dollars etc.
What will happen is deeproot pinball the llc will have tens of millions judgement against it… they’ll declare bankruptcy … liquidate and the judgement will take some of the proceeds.
The pinball activity isn’t scrutinized here except in the insider dealing of RM giving pinball money without normal expectations. So the suit (for DP) is simply ‘we want our money back from deeproot pinball’ that you got unjustly.
Its the end for Deeproot pinball because they don’t have the money to give back… and of course RM is f’d individually and has no way forward for deeproot pinball.
Man I don’t know. None of us are lawyers.
But like I said, I’m sure glad I didn’t get a check from deep root. Looks like a pretty big gray area at least.
The people who got scammed are gonna come sniffing around for their money, even if they can only hope to claw back cents on the dollar. Only a matter of Time. Over the course of time, everybody involved in this, every recipient of deep root money is gonna get looked over.
6926C123-5A19-4D02-8E2B-1A88A270AAF6 (resized).jpeg
Well I think the issue of whether or not deep root ever actually acquired the rights to make “The who” or “The Goonies” has been settled.
(They didn’t)
Quoted from TreyBo69:I could see some people sitting down for Robert’s pitch deck, then doing some very light googling and finding this dumpster fire. That might have stopped some money coming in
Maybe don’t name all your fraudulent companies basically the same thing? Kinda brings up all the garbage at once…
But it was such an awesome name it just couldn’t be contained to one scam company.
From the stupid name to the buttplug logo to the obnoxious asshole running all of it to the shitty game they designed with the dumb ramp you couldn’t make to the moronic pinbar gimmick.....
Wow, it was a all such a doozy, wasn’t it? No wonder people kept sending him money. He really got the zeitgeist we saw during that particular flashpoint in time, and reaped untold scam profits for himself and his family from the kind of bullshit people across the entire country were buying into.
A blustery "self-made" asshole selling nothing but bullshit and tons of people buying in...that’s so 2016!!
Quoted from Mr68:I will never forget when Levi described the Pinpod video, likening it to an Office episode. It was spot on and brought it all into focus for me.
The slack jawed stares of the lucky VIP Six said it all really, along with the complete lack of self-awareness from Robert Michael Scott.
Quoted from Mr68:I'm very much looking forward to Cary Hardy's follow up.
I really want to know what it was like to have to sit (stand) through that 20 minute Pinpod Presentation, being forced to endure that, and nod along stupidly while this dumb scam was unfolding before their eyes.
It seriously must have been Hell. I mean...four minutes in you are thinking to yourself "Why is this happening to me? How much longer do I have to stand here where this rotund asshole talks about a box and hurls some of the dumbest things I've ever heard at my face and I have to just stand here and take it? I traveled to San Antonio during a global pandemic to listen to this lazy PT Barnum knockoff drone on about a box and talk down to us like we are all six years old?"
"Total Pinball Ownership Experience?!?! Dear lord. Why. WHY? And now he's making us answer dumb questions like we are in 1st grade to give this ridiculous video some "pop? YES! YEs Robert, call on me, I know the answer!!! When a pinball machine is shipped new we call it New In Box! Do I get a cookie, or the long-promised 'Tex-Mex Lunch BUffet?'"
"This guy is insufferable and I just signed an NDA so I can't offer my opinions on him. And he's still talking about a box as if it's going to cure cancer. Shoot me."
I'm not even kidding. Cary, Colin...spill the beans. What in God's name was going through your minds during the Pinpod lecture?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Plenty of room for thought bubbles here:
[quoted image]
Click for larger version:
[quoted image]
LMAO
Even with a mask on you can tell Colin McAlpine is thinking "Why the fuck am I here?!" While the guy on the right (Cary?) is literally praying this is all just a bad dream.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I like this guy reevaluating all of his life choices that led to him being trapped in this room
[quoted image]
I have felt this way once. I probably wore that exact same expression, cause the guy selling the scam picked up on it immediately.
When I was a teenager, I needed a summer job, and I decided I was too smart for some min. wage bullshit. That's not for nice middle-class kids. So I brilliantly followed a sign saying '$11 an hour!! Call now!!" that were posted on telephone poles.
I put on a fucking suit and went to the "interview," which was actually a seminar all about money and how much of it I was going to make becoming the world's biggest pain in the ass to all my friends and family as I tried to sell them a set of knives. I shifted around uncomfortably through 20 minutes of bullshit until the head honcho called upon us for our one-on-one "interviews."
The guy called on me first, and I went into the room. "You have zero interest in this, correct?"
Yup! He knew getting me out of that room as soon as possible - certainly before I had a chance to discuss what I'd just seen with the rest of the marks - and dismissed me and I happily went out into the beautiful Maryland sunshine to my car. On the way home - literally, having just been slapped in the face with the cruel open hand of reality - I stopped in a MaCgruder's supermarket for a cattle call interview -still in my suit hahaha! - and got the job as a cashier/bag boy.
Fantasy is ALWAYS more attractive than reality, just like $11 an hour was more appealing than $6 an hour. But that $6 an hour paid for my college experience the next year, whereas the fantasy would have ended in nothing but heartbreak and me being forced to buy a bunch of unsold knives with my family and friends all fleeing at the sight of me.
Get with the program people. Next time a blustery jerk off like RM shows up promising you sunshine and fairy tales (innovation), don't get hooked. Just buy a fucking Stern game and go on with your life. It's better that way.
Quoted from zaphX:And the biggest shame of it all? The prototypes in Houston were not bad games! All they had to do was finish that.
No pinbar, no pincrate, just finish the good thing that was going there.
The game was always terrible. That was the most puzzling, maddening thing about it: You folks are opening yourselves up to lose thousands of dollars for what sure looks like a scam for THIS? Badly designed game with a stupid, incoherent theme and a bunch of warmed over gimmicks trying to cover up for the lameness of it all?
Any time you need to create new rules to fix a faulty layout - ie: hey it's not so bad that 9 out of 10 ramp shots on any RAZA where the front leg levelers aren't jacked up two inches falls into the pops, cause now you score points for that! - the battle is already lost.
It was a bad game. It will always be a bad game. It will continue to be a bad game in the future for whomever ends up with those two cobbled together prototypes. I do hope it continues to be trotted out at shows for the foreseeable future, or ends up at the PBHOF or somewhere the public can see it for themselves. Jpop/Mueller's folly could end up having some positive impact, if only it helps people avoid similar scams in the future.
Quoted from cpr9999:While I tend to agree with game flow of your comments- the message to send here is never buy a game without playing it first for both flow and code. I can not call it a bad game, because as I have been advised over the years to play it first before I call it bad or good. No matter what people are selling you in this hobby.
That's just a matter of preference. I tend to love buying games I've barely/never played (though that doesn't happen much any more after 100s of games), as it's a new game! And you get to play it all you want! And won't be tired of it before your first plunge!
Maybe it's not smart for a NIB buyer, but let's face it; when you buy a game that actually EXISTS, from a company who won't steal your money, and it ain't for you, you can easily sell it and only lose a few bucks. We see this literally every time a new game comes out, people buy it, people sell it, and people post "Why are there so many X games for sale?!" threads as if it doesn't happen every single time.
Sending money on a questionable game from a company that has never made a game before is a whole different ballgame.
Stop doing it! Bad Pinside!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Just because Deeproot seems to be done for the final count as a pinball company. It does not mean any of these JPOP games or other titles done there will not see the light of day in the future. We will have to see who buys what is left & what they want to do with the assets. Could be they do nothing, could produce under license if allowed, or could just retheme stuff.
Pinball production is NOT EASY, but it is not impossible. Almost all real pinball manufacturers contract out parts production, & just do final builds. The other part is design & code usually done in house. But even that can be contracted out.
It is a free world towards speech but there are some (many) vocal people thinking they know it all here. See what more abuse I get here again. Even a small dedicated group with proper management, skilled staff, & resources can get games built. If you are a dreamer or have no game plan you are likely to fail.
Everyone has high hopes for Spooky, Haggis, P3, Dutch Pinball, Heighway, & even Homepin to advance in this tough pinball market with the big players. But time will tell in the future who continues on, & who might come to a end.
If you keep this nonsense up someone may try to have you committed.
At this point Wayne’s Croc Hunter pin has a better chance of reaching production than anything deep root.
Quoted from pookycade:What I really do not understand in any of this is how the hell does any company burn thru this much money and produce nothing ? The $1.6M payout and $1.5M in personal expenditures aside, where the hell did the rest of the money go ? How much did DR Pinball and DR Studios really siphon off ? What tangible assets did they produce ?
It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done. JPOP aside I can’t imagine that all the others just sat on their hands and did nothing. And yet they produced seemingly nothing at all. This will be an amazing case study in failure when all comes out.
I’m sure he stole far more than is accounted for at this moment. Also, not Sure if you’ve heard the rumors, but some think this wasn’t a very efficiently run enterprise.
Quoted from spfxted:[quoted image]
"Future events such as this will impact all of us in the future"
-Criswell the Great
I have zero idea how any of this works.
Can someone explain why RM hasn’t been arrested/indicted for something yet?
Is that forthcoming?
Quoted from Richthofen:These are NOT good intentions. If Robert wanted $5 million to build a pinball company, he should have asked investors for $5 million for a pinball company. Instead, he lied to investors and said, I will invest in safe investments, life insurance policies, etc. I wonder why he lied? Oh thats right, because even the dumbest financial advisor in the world knows that investing in pinball is high risk. He wanted the cheap and safe perceived value of investment money for fixed income streams, but for other shit that is not that.
It's like when my derelict brother asks me for $150 in grocery money, then blows it at the casino (yes, this is a thing that happens in my life regularly). He knows if he asked for casino money I'd say fuck off I don't go to work to fund your habit. But when he asks for grocery money, shit am i going to say no to my iraq veteran baby brother who my mom asked me to take care of when she dies? The key is, after a few times of getting conned, I now physically take him to the grocery store and pay for his groceries at check out. And I keep the receipt so he can't return the groceries (yes, he would return groceries for cash).
Again, the “he had good intentions” crowd is still under the spell.
Quoted from Mr68:Girlfriend: What's new?
Me: Been reading Pinside. Remember that idiot lawyer in Texas I've told you about. He really screwed the pooch this weekend.
Girlfriend: You told me about two of them. Which one?
Me: Both
For me the convo went like this...
“Hey baby remember that scam pinball company I mentioned when we were watching The Lady and the Dale ?”
“Yep!”
“Well.....”
Quoted from RobT:The Pinball News articled summed it up nicely:
"How Deeproot Pinball could be financially viable was always puzzling. With huge on-going expenses, no product shipped, and little interest in their first title, the flow of money always seemed to be going one way with little prospect of turning the finances around in the short-to-medium term.
Robert had previously claimed that he was funding Deeproot Pinball with his own money. If the SEC’s claims are to be believed, he had a pretty relaxed attitude to what money was “his” to spend."
Where was the critical thinking when pinball news was acting as a free PR firm for them for 2 years?
Don’t blame them for giving him so much press as RM was a good interview and they got space
To fill, but, well, a little of this editorializing would have been nice to see early on.
Quoted from bigehrl:well, I'm listening to the interview as we speak. and if you pay enough attention to Jonathan and Martin's reactions to some of Robert's answers, there's a whole bunch of editorializing. It's just subtle and the listener needs to read between the lines.
Cool, I never listened to those. I just remember the press releases and printed softball interviews when he was making his initial "Pinball is Easy" splash.
Seems like people are always gonna be impressed by flashy loudmouths who are spreading a lot of money around.
Quite simply, RM bought his credibility around here, and it was easy. We went from nobody knowing who this asshole was to people clamoring to send him money in a matter of a couple short months.
For Mueller, it was cheap and easy to buy respect, credibility, and belief in the pinball community. Sure he's a loudmouth, and yeah he's obnoxious, and yeah he's provided absolutely zero evidence he can actually build pinball machines, but he's rich!!! Wouldn't be wise to doubt him!
I guess it was the same pitch from the seniors he scammed out of $60 million. I'm sure we'll know more in the near future.
One of the most maddening arguments around here was the one you heard quite often:
"Well, Barry, Nordman...these guys never would have signed up if they didn't believe in him! And I trust these guys!!!"
Such nonsense. The checks clear and that's enough, and I don't blame them. But it was always such a lame argument as to why we should believe this would actually happen. Barry was a wash up on the street, one of the only old-timers Stern nor JJP had any interest in, his career in pinball was clearly as obsolete as his choice in Halloween costumes. Why the Hell wouldn't he accept a check to design "food truck" without completely vetting how much of a criminal RM was?
Hope this puts that argument to bed, for good. You know, for the next time around, in 6 months or so when we all get on this dumb merry go round again.
Quoted from teekee:Pretty unique pin and if it turns out to be a nice playing machine and priced fairly all you gals talking smack now will want one. Just the usual Pinside haters. Once Bob said what he said and hurt some feelings here he was never gonna win with some of you.
Ok girls now get back to your hate and tough talk! I’m sure Bob is shaking in his boots!
This!!!!
Quoted from ZNET:Just took my son to the Petersen Museum in Los Angeles yesterday. The Dale was there. Instructive story about how scams unfold.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Wild!
Quoted from Jvspin:That's not how I remember it. As I recall, there was plenty of skeptism surrounding deeproot when it was announced, especially with the stuff RM was saying and with JPOP on board. The sentiment was more like as long as they aren't taking money from the pinball community we're willing to take a 'wait and see' approach.
I probably am remembering it wrong, as it's all been such a long strange trip. The fact is, there WERE a group of very loud, voiciferous supporters who were impressed by Robert's act, and it certainly helped it all gain traction. As more "pinball famous" names came aboard that group grew in number.
And there were ALWAYS folks pointing out that just because he wasn't actively stealing money from pinball people, that didn't mean he wasn't stealing money from somebody. These comments turned out to be the most prescient of all, really.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:People tend to file away their critical concerns when a company is sponsoring major tournaments and expos left and right.
This strategy - along with hiring every pinball-famous person who was still on the street - worked like a charm.
Quoted from fosaisu:Who was silenced, and when?
Rascal H is a one-issue, one-agenda voter.
Hint: Kaneda.
Quoted from benheck:[quoted image]
Probably plotting a way to escape prison via PinPod.
Quoted from Mogg:What will happen to all the patents that RM most likely harbors? Will he sell them to a third party patent troll? I don’t see this going away. Am I wrong?
They are of no use to anybody. There's not a single Deep Root "innovation" that would benefit any pinball manufacturer.
Unless you think we really need cabinets with built in playfield rotisseries, or ipads melded with lockdown bars.
These patents will never be enforced because nobody else will ever be dumb enough to try to use any of these moronic ideas.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Deeproot confirmed on the Department of Labor stuff. 88 violations in 2019.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Someone who knows anything about this stuff want to look through the export and tell us if it indicates they paid up the $1.4m penalty?
Here's a link where you can download the file: https://enforcedata.dol.gov/Enfdata/search.php?agency[0]=WHD&type[0]=Cases&case_id=1881920
I am honestly shocked that the Dept. of Labor down in Texas is this vigillant.
I mean, it's Texas.
Can you imagine how toxic and horrible that workplace is if they managed to get busted for 88 labor violations in Texas?!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Don't be. It's the DoL for Utah.
See that's why you get paid the big bucks!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:[quoted image]
Yeah this is kind of what I was saying when idiots kept pretending that Deep Root was some kind of "plucky underdog" who deserved our respect for his passion.
He wasn't an underdog, he was an obnoxious "self-made rich" (haha!) asshole who threw a bunch of stolen money around and insulted all the people in this industry who will actually make pinball machines and don't steal your money.
And people fell for it, again. It was all so of its era. It was not "underdog" behavior but people around here resent the people who actually produce pinball machines for some reason and are always desperately searching for some otherworldly alternative. The fantasy is always more appealing than the reality for some folks and that's why these scams will always - on some level - succeed. We've not seen any evidence yet to the contrary.
Quoted from EternitytoM83:but for a while there I couldn't click on anything without hearing that cringingly stupid tag line, something like "A pinball for every home, every home should have a pinball machine."
Yes, I was forced to utter that moronic line into a hot mic during a PAPA tournament while doing commentary in the booth. Fortunately the sponsorship binge only seemed to be for one "season" and they were gone from the tournament scene before too long.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:Bout to see how good my credit card company is... This should be interesting.
If they can bail you out of this mess, I'd say they are pretty good.
Quoted from Palmer:Live look at Robturd running out of people to milk. Coincidentally the same thing he will be doing to his prison husband.
[quoted image]
His "prison husband" gonna be another white collar con doing far too little soft time for being a sociopathic criminal. Maybe he'll be forced to collect his golf ball from a sand trap but I think some of you all are being a little dramatic/hopeful with how far he's gonna have to demean himself to survive at Club Fed.
Quoted from fosaisu:Maybe not, but if he dares to show up at a pin auction you can bet someone will take a picture of his back and post it on Pinside.
Seriously. Maybe it'll even be....SHOCK...in focus!!!!
Quoted from MrBally:Here are a few old ones to bring back memories of the other asshole involved in this scam. Think aboot the NDA'a this guy made "customers" sign had. I wonder if by chance he had the SEC target draft those NDA's as a precursor to their "partnership"?[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
LMAO at that stupid fn Magic Girl cabinet. The back of that thing is what...4 feet tall?
Good luck fitting it in anything smaller than a cargo van!
Is there anything about this project - besides the stolen artwork - that wasn't a complete and total misfire of Spruce Goose proportions?!
I remember hearing it was simply dumb luck that the playfield glass - which slides out at a ridiculously steep angle - didn't hit the plunger on the way out of the cabinet (barely cleared it). Didn't even pop into anybody's mind that this might be an issue when they were designing it.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Here is Robert's carwash
10670 Bandera Rd, San Antonio, TX 78250
I think he gave a loan from deeproot Funds, LLC (again don't name all your fraudulent companies the same thing) to someone who built a carwash sometime in 2019 or so going off the streetview with Robert personally as the trustee
I'm sure it's the most innovative, awesomest car wash in history, complete with "dynamic cross staffing" and "lean-agile" cleaning processes. Customers aren't just getting their Acuras washed they are enjoying the "Total Car Wash Experience." The best news? These carwashes are all "backwards compatible!"
Send cash now...your car is scheduled to be washed in only six weeks according to our "external estimates."*
*internal estimates may vary
You see, Deep Root car wash is a "fresh voice of reason in a dysfunctional industry." The cost/profit/quality profile of our car washes will not allow any other car wash to compete with us.
My god the river of corporate bullshitspeak RM uttered in every interview was head-explodingly baffling. HOW IN GOD'S NAME COULD ANYBODY SEND THIS GUY MONEY?!?!
Do you ever hear Gary fuckin Stern - or Jersey Jack - or Charlie - or ANYBODY who has ever successfully produced a pinball machine talk like that?!?!?!
AAAAHHHRRRERGHGHGHGHG!!!!
Quoted from Mogg:there is a cargument coming and Levi sparked it. I'm going to take a guess that Levi doesn't own a car.
You see, Robert Mueller is kinda like that car Biff drives in BTTF.
Full of shit and going nowhere.
Did I do it right?!
Quoted from bigehrl:did I ever tell you guys about the first time I met John?..
Some of you might remember my first business in NYC, Reciprocal Skateboards and Pinball, in the E. Village. So around 2008/2009, we were still kinda' new, as it was before we expanded into the storefront next door and tripled our size. We had this really tiny bathroom that couldn't have been more than 3 feet from our counter. It was pretty nasty and the door had this gaping hole towards the bottom, so you can clearly see the feet and ankles of the person taking a dump (it was a skateshop, give us a break!). Anyway, our good friend Eddie Cramer comes in with another gentleman I'd never seen before, and before I can even say "Hi" to Eddie or introduce myself to his friend, the friend eagerly asks, "Hey, do you have a bathroom I can use?!". I can tell by the look in his eyes what is currently taking priority for him, as I've certainly been there myself. So I say "Sure, right through there.. please excuse the hole in the door.". The guy quickly scurries in there, like as if something is gonna happen, like it or not. The Belt and zipper are the next noises I couldn't help but hear. It was straight out of a Farrelly Brother's movie. Eddie excitedly says to me "Do you know who that is?". I said, "Ummm, the guy who's about to blow up my bathroom?!". Eddie chuckles and says "No, but you know what he's famous for, right?". I said, "No, but I hope it's for washing his hands, if he plans on playing pinball with you!".
Anyway, he did manage to stink it up quite a bit, but I got to talk to him for quite a while after. Ironically most of the discussion revolved around patents. I vividly remember that he told me that the Rudy head in Funhouse alone has over 100 patents. And he told me about many of the patents he had in his name.
A few months later I saw he was selling these grab-bags of pinball development-related collectibles (schematics, drawings, etc..), so I paid him $400 for one. They were supposed to be hand picked by him, and each order would be different in what it contained. Perfect for any pinball enthusiast. I was going to give it to my friend Steve Marsh for his Birthday, as he was a huge fan of his. 4 months, and 10 excuses later, I still hadn't gotten what I paid for, and only got my money back after I threatened to report it to Paypal.
In all fairness, he did tack an additional $10 (maybe $20) on to the refund, unrequested by me, for my troubles. I can only assume that was from later buyers But I also got all the warning I needed to know not to ever give a dime towards his future pinball ventures. So it really turned out to be a great meeting.
Awesome story! Not sure what he had for lunch that day, but he's been stinking up this hobby ever since!
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:The picture of that “payment coupon” is revolting. It’s actually nauseating and makes me angry.
Right.
It’s so cute and whimsical!!!
(Oh by the way fuck you I’m stealing your money and that $2k is going toward my Range Rover payments. Boom!!!)
Quoted from RobT:(and fwiw, I think Yelobird is a good dude)
[quoted image]
Me too.
He’s not a bad person.
He just did a bad thing.
I guess it was a natural evolution that a 500 page thread about a fake pinball company would devolve into a discussion about fake pinball.
Is Blackface Barry really going around telling people "it's not over?"
That can't possibly be true can it?
Dude was a broke wash up on the street out of the industry for decades, one of the only pinball geezers that couldn't get himself hired by the 5 other functioning pinball companies. I was SHOCKED when people were using the fact that he was cashing Deep Root checks as some kind of evidence that his faith in the company somehow proved Deep Root was on the level; using that reasoning shows you how pathetically desperate people were to believe in this scam.
It's like saying "Shatner has agreed to be in the new Star Trek movie?! Well then you know it HAS TO BE GOOD!!!!"
Quoted from Haymaker:Goatseroot
[quoted image]
Juvenile, disgusting, and extremely lowbrow!!!!
(in other words LOL)
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:You know how we enjoyed Ben's jpop impersonation? Everyone at deeproot must have had a robert impression.
Just throw a bunch of "Mkay's" in there, stuff a beach ball up your shirt, and wave your arms around while spouting nonsense like "Total. Pinball. Ownership. Experience." and "Dynamic cross-staffing" and you are already beyond the level of the Don Knotts impersonator Pinball Adventures scrounged up on Fivrr.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I still vote for a less in shape Jack Black as Mueller and Danny Devito with a wig as JPop
Was "Twins" the "80s movie license" that they 100 percent had locked down legally with signed contracts?!?!
Quoted from benheck:Let's workshop a name for the inevitable documentary!
Pinball terms the public knows: wizards, tilt, game over
Go!
Pinball Ponzi: The Fall of deeproot
Full Tilt Ponzi
Pinball Ponzi Wizards
Every single pinball documentary can have one of two possible names:
Tilt!
Pinball Wizards!
So it'll probably be Tilt! : something something something.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Pinball is the memorable angle. Otherwise it’s just another jackass stealing from retirement plans. Those are a dime a dozen.
He didn’t even steal that much in the grand scheme of things. It’s what he spent it on that’s so unique.
Although I think it’s hard to convey how insane some of Robert’s pinball ideas were to the layperson. Most people still don’t know they still make pinball machines, let alone how difficult they are to make and what they cost. So some of the stuff that we know is batshit insane doesn’t easily translate to normal people
Luckily Robert said lots of dumb stuff on record
I hope to see all the footage they filmed that day of the deep six reveal. They only put a small amount. Based on the PinPod video, I’m sure there’s lots of gold on a hard drive somewhere.
I would LOVE to see the "hammer test" video, where Rob explains to everybody that, yeah, the playfields resemble Orbiter One but don't worry, that's a just a small detail we'll "smooth" out.
Just a reminder, if you haven't had any laughs yet today, Deep Root actually said this about the pinbar:
“The PinbarTM is the most powerful, revolutionary innovation ever to be added to a Pinball machine. We want to challenge the last few decades of pinball by changing from a habit of walking up to a deeproot machine and saying, “Where is the start button?”; to walking up to any non-deeproot machine and saying “Where’s the Pinbar?”
----
Well, at least they got that right. Many disappointed "owners" are certainly asking, "Where's the pinbar?"
Quoted from benheck:I love the guy but to paraphrase Rickey Gervais Dennis would work for the Taliban if the started a pinball company.
Dennis seems to be working for every pinball company, all the time, at the same time. How is that even possible?
man this thread has taken a dark turn.
i'd rather listen to people defend Mueller than defend virtual pinball.
Quoted from Mr68:I've mentioned this before on Pinside in other threads and in different variations.
If you're going to start a documentary, this all goes back to and begins with Gene Cunningham and Big bang Bar in 2009. That set the tone, set the bar, that set the Holy Grail of FOMO. Even today you hear people whisper, "XYZ game is gonna be the next BBB".
No other game before or snice can compare to its status. It was the right game, in the right place at the right time.
And don't forget, it was the first pre-order Pinball machine offered and the internet was filled with all kinds of drama surrounding it. In fact, modern pre-order itself was in its adolescence.
The irony to me is there will never be another Big Bang Bar. Never. That was a perfect storm in the moment and even BBB isn't what it used to be.
For sure. WIthout BBB no way would people have sent $15K to Jpop in 2010.
Even *I* thought about it for about 10 minutes. I didn't want to be left behind on the next BBB!?!?
There are lots of differences of course. BBB was $5k. BBB was built with existing board sets and tons of other existing parts, the game was designed. And it was hand-built by an army of volunteers.
I would have to think BY NOW people realize another "BBB" isn't gonna happen, ever. It really is dumb luck (and a lot of hard work by people with skin in the game) that made it happen.
Quoted from Mr68:Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
Yeah I remember.
Why do you think I felt left out?!?!
I considered it, but $4500 was about half my life savings at the time, and I REALLY doubted they were going to pull it off. People who got their BBBs deserved every cent of the spoils!
Does anybody remember when Wayne's MM and CC remakes were announced?
It was after the BBBs started rolling out the door, right?
That one kind of gets forgotten, probably because (as far as I know) Wayne never stole anybody's money. I do remember a few years hearing about some lunatic who still hadn't asked for a refund because he thought they were happening.
I believe he DID take money, but refunded it when it was clear the project was as dead as Croc Hunter (both the game and the person). It did have some of the hallmarks of our favorite scams...a splashy launch with some nice graphics...optimistic timelines...pictures of "parts in bins" as the best evidence things were getting made...no evidence of an actual pinball factory...but it didn't last very long and was put to bed pretty quickly.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Barry received over $33,000 a few years ago through Go Fund Me when he and his wife were ill. I imagine he needed the money.
https://uk.gofundme.com/f/6fgkt0
no no no he was there because of his firm belief that Deep Root was going to be a huge success!!
Same reason everybody else was there.
Quoted from Mr68:I recently paid non-refundable, pre-order money to Haggis in Australia for a Mermaid edition of Fathom. ...During Covid.
Discuss!
Well, since you asked...
I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike many others, I have yet to lose any money or been forced to take a 5-10 year rollercoaster ride I didn't ask for on this type of project so I think I'm doing something right.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Well now his (drunken?) rage appears to be directed toward Robert. Is that a first, or has iceman trained his powered up rage beam on the perpetuators of scams rather than the identifiers of them in the past?
I don't think he's angry at anybody. He's just enjoying the adrenaline-soaked thrill ride that is throwing tens of thousands of dollars away on a pinball scam. YEEEEEEHAAAAAWWWW!!!
Few can afford the thrills. It's a rich thing, you paupers wouldn't understand.
Quoted from TreyBo69:This was J Pops paper craft model of a AIW machine with lots of art by Zombie Yeti[quoted image]
The only crime here is that there are no clear instructions on how I can send jpop thousands of dollars immediately to secure my Alice in Wonderland. I MUST HAVE THIS GAME!!!
Quoted from Richthofen:False. RAZA had less than 100 legitimate pre orders. No one really wants his games.
Look if Stern doesn’t want him, because Gomez is smart and knows he sucks, doesn’t that tell you something?
If he couldn’t get a working complete Magic Girl, despite years of time and millions of dollars, doesn’t that tell you something?
If Pintasia could spend a million dollars and decide it’s not worth it, doesn’t that tell you something?
If we rob $58 million from little old ladies and give JPOP five years to complete literally one game and he fails, DOESN’T THAT TELL YOU SOMETHING?
The guy is not just a monumental fuck up; he’s a fraud and a thief. You don’t take preorders for more and more games to cover the incompetence of not being able to do basic excel spreadsheet / back of the napkin math. The fact that so many people have fallen for his bullshit is remarkable.
Do you think Keith Elwin “needs to be managed”? Or George Gomez? No. They show up to work and build games. They delegate what they are not good at, and iterate on what they are. When is the last time Stern delayed a game for a year because a designer was noodling? Fucking never.
Counterpoint: all of these stern games that Actually exist lack that “jpop magic!”
I like how the right ramp on Theater of Magic is impossible to make consistently due to wonky geometry.
It’s so Jpop!
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Thinking about what type of people make for horrible bosses. If they —
* run a shady business that is prone to fielding customer inquiries and complaints.
* manage all incoming and control all outgoing comments.
* then stir the pot by making many outlandish public comments about how they are going to build what everybody wants and needs.
* has many outstanding business related lawsuits.
* has many lawsuits and counter lawsuits against own employees.
* are controlled at the top by a megalomaniac.
These would all be red flags and I know it would suck being an employee under such disfunctional conditions and horrible boss. However it could also have been pretty fun working there at times.
I know Robert’s act impressed people who are susceptible to the charms of allegedly rich blowhards, but many were pretty taken aback that this guy was supposedly starting a pinball company.
That’s not how people who are serious in business act. Taking to a hobby forum to fight with commoners?! Constantly trashing all of the established players in the business and making outlandish promises about outdoing them all within months?
It all seemed so amateur hour from the jump. Still can’t believe how seriously some people took him, and the respect and prominence afforded to him by the “pinball media” from the get go.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:Yeah Mueller definitely had a narcissistic personality disorder. Look how big the typeface is?
I know it’s a big font, but to be clear; listing the names of every little old lady and every other “investor” that was truly responsible for “directing” this project wouldn’t have left any room on the translite for the stunning artwork, So I think it’s fine it was all distilled down to “Mueller.”
Say what you will, but he was truly the mastermind behind it all!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Look at the Deeproot picture with whitewoods on the wall. Can you see what the cans are like Rustoleum. Do not think it is gloss clear. Also does someone know what the whitewoods are.
Those are deep root trade secrets you moocher!!!
If you want to know this stuff it’s going to cost you.
Quoted from DennisNordman:Well, I'll be darned, that's my foamcore layout. Built around March of 2019, well before anybody suspected fraud from Robert. Yeah, Robert bragged about a lot of things he was going to accomplish, but I, nor any of the other employees, knew anything about any fraudulent deals made by Robert. Nobody knew anything until the SEC charges were filed a couple weeks ago. I left in fall of 2019 for a couple of reasons. One was because, in my opinion, he was wasting investors money on equipment that a start-up shouldn't be buying until they had a couple of games produced.
[quoted image]
“Knowing” and “suspecting” are different things.
Seems hard to believe there wasn’t a single skeptic among the deep root crew till 2 weeks ago. There were plenty outside of the building, that’s for sure.
People over there had to be wondering how Rob planned on turning a profit after several years already of this nonsense and burning cash like it was winter after the nuclear apocalypse.
Quoted from spfxted:Hi Dennis! What game was it for?
Ha I knew somebody would ask.
Hint: it doesn’t matter as it will never be built out of something besides cardboard.
But the good news is, since it was all a complete fantasy, you can just make up your own desire-fulfilling pinball paradise!! That sad piece of dirty foam and cardboard leaning up against a wall with the rest of the garbage can be anything you want it to be.
“50s B Movie Monster Mayhem?” Sure, why not!!
“Elvira’s Ed Wood Party Bash?!” Or maybe it was supposed to be “Whitewater Horror Scared Stiff Indy 600!”
Hey, it’s your fantasy!! Whatever your heart desires deep root will furnish it. Just send money and encourage others to do the same. No longer do you have to continue to accept the insulting “product” foisted upon you by the likes of Gary Stern!!!
Quoted from flynnibus:And what did the audience think of the very same conclusions people are coming around to now? Oh yeah, the 'no preorder money' fallacy...
[quoted image]
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/151#post-5475178
People just REFUSED to let that one go, throughout about 4 years of this scam.
"Where's the scam? THey haven't asked for any money!!!"
Many people mentioned that just because he's not actively stealing from us - YET - it doesn't mean he's not stealing money. The cultists didn't care. And then when he DID ask for money? Hey they didn't care either.
Because this time, well...it's different!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Blueberry the next post is yours!
Yoink!!!!
Honestly, it really should be yours, as the rightful owner of all that awesome Zidware IP.
So while I underhandedly stole 25K, I'm making sure you get a piece of the glory!
Quoted from stevevt:The vanishingly small number of preorder deposits deeproot received doesn't match this "many people supported him" narrative.
Just the cultists. Don't believe I said "many."
The hardcores who never lost faith. The ones who 3 years in were still insisting it couldn't be a scam because "he hasn't asked for our money."
Have we decided what that number was? About 100?
Quoted from JodyG:I'm a big fan of sales guys coming in with a drawing of a new product idea on a napkin which is physically impossible to make due to the laws of physics. I told the last one to finish the drawing before you start drinking next time.
napkin (resized).jpgQuoted from Scandell:I agree wholeheartedly with this. Robert 100% believed he could do this and did not create this entire venture as a scam. He truly thought he could turn a profit.
Would you at least concede he knew all along he was stealing? Using funds money to pay for his lavish lifestyle and all these dumb spinoffs like Deep Root Pinball and Deep Root Sports Entertainment?
Or do you think he was dumb enough to really think this was on the level, or at least that he was so smart all of these projects would succeed and he could pay back the fund he was raiding?
"He had good intentions" seems to be gaining a little steam around here but it's pretty clear that he became a crook the second he took money from the 575 to pay to make all of our dreams come true and help buy Barry O a new tub of black greasepaint. And that was almost five years ago now.
He may have “intended” to produce pinball machines and make money with it, but it was all built on a foundation of stolen money from day one. This already put this project on shaky footing and deep in the hole before the first unemployed Williams Designer was wooed.
Gang, this thread is doing just fine without the gross (and ridiculous) prison rape fantasies.
I mean it already has so much going for it without pretending that the 150 pound stockbroker in the condo next to him who lied about his taxes is going to make Mueller his "prison boyfriend" at club fed.
Enough already you sickos!
Take a break, let the heat and insane lunatics cool off...I have a feeling Jeff will make it back just in time for the next TWIPPY season!
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:It boggles the mind how much money was spent on Robert's pinball dreams.
But wasn't that money spent on OUR dreams?
He was only trying to give us what we so desperately want: A terrible game with an innovative lockdown bar. And yet, we crucify him for it!!!
So “call me!!!!” Is the new “bet me!!!!”
Doesn’t really matter. It’s all hot air and you’ll never be able to close off the valve.
Quoted from benheck:The "level of stupid" it takes to buy into this grows with each failure. Most rich people are not stupid.
Since we are now on at least THREE "rich" backers (Pintasia, AP, Deep Root) who have bought into this at one point or another after it already spectacularly failed at least once (not talking about all the rich people who actually BOUGHT zidware games, literally; they are up for Mensa nominations as well) I think I may have to beg to differ.
There are tons of dumb rich people. You can literally be born rich and that don't take brains. You can get lucky. You can be a dumb criminal who somehow manages to steal $58 million. You can be "smart" and rich and still do dumb things.
As completely loony tunes as Greatwhich comes off in his daily happy hour posts, there's definitely a kernel of truth in his rants. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some other rich genius bought into it in the future.
rich = smart? Not buying it. Read the posts here daily and you'll put that thinking on Ice 
Quoted from Rarehero:Great Sandwich will only change his tune when Jplop steals his beer.
blut.gifQuoted from Haymaker:Hell I know a lotta rich guys that are dumb as a box of rocks and they weren't born rich.
So I want to make sure I'm keeping this story straight now though. Theres a set of people who think Jeff at TWIP is being "blackmailed" by DR detractors? Wow. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
It will disappear like a fart in the wind because it's nonsense. There's likely one person - not a cabal - of aggreived disposition that was fn with Jeff.
Nobody knows for sure who sent him threatening messages and it really doesn't matter. If he lays low for a week they will disappear, and when he comes back in a few months with the next TWIPPY ballot they won't return. Declarations of TWIP's death are greatly exaggerated.
Most anonymous hate mailer / hate callers have extraordinarily short attention spans. I speak from personal experience.
Quoted from Syco54645:Or I really don't feel like reading a 500+ page thread to get the gist of what actually happened.
I always thought the entire point of this place was to waste time during work hours but people always be like "Hey can you summarize everything for me?!"
Also they always want you to summarize something that happened on Facebook because they refuse to get on Facebook and I'm all "tough titty, get on Facebook if you want to know what's going on on Facebook!!!"
That's all for now.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:A former deeproot employee weighs in
[quoted image]
Nobody was getting rich off this scam except for Mueller and his family.
The rest of these guys were working stiffs, more or less. I don't think going after their grocery money is going to fix anything.
This all brings up an interesting point:
Was there a gifted PR person at any time involved in Deep Root?
It is just THAT easy to steal people’s life savings?
It can’t be that simple can it? Surely you need a top flight comms department to pull something like this off these days?
Based on the point-and-laugh press releases and promos deep root pinball put out, it’s certainly easy to tell they never hired one for the pinball con.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that you guys have nothing better to do than listen to hours and hours of podcasts....
So here’s my three hour take on the deep root fun, as recorded a few weeks back:
Quoted from spandol:Enjoying the podcast Levi. I'm about 2/3rds the way through. Some interesting history I forgot about.
I’m about to check out the first 6 hours myself.
Glad somebody is enjoying it…as I point out a few times this is just my recollection of how all this went down and it’s for entertainment purposes only!
1 week later
Quoted from benheck:Oh the Coolest Cooler is easy - they vastly underestimated what it would take to build it. (like JJP and WOZ)
Thus new money had to pay for old sales (the OG KS backers)
That's a problem with wildly over successful KS projects - the difficulty scales the more you sell
Right.
People always want a discount per game for renting 2 pinball machines vs renting one.
I always tell them it’s twice as much work so that dog don’t hunt.
So how much did the vaunted PinPod weigh, and does anybody know the exact dimensions?
Just curious as to how much more difficult that monstrosity would have made moving pinball machines around.
Some are content to live in a world where moving an already large and heavy pinball machine doesn't involve adding a giant 130 pound box into the equation.
That's no world I want to live in!
Connectors for every coil instead of soldering?
Genius!!!
Connectors have never proven to be an issue in solid state pinball, especially at high vibration areas such as coils. Definitely worth opening that can of worms to make it slightly easier to replace a coil once every 15 years.
Quoted from Jigs:He’s representing himself….[quoted image]
I'm sure it will be the most whimsical and magical courtroom defense ever!!!
Oh the whimsy! Will he show up to court in a handlebar mustache and a top hat? Perhaps a big cape? Will he use old-timey mouthpiece talk and perhaps wave a cane around as the jury falls under the spell of his 19th century huckster charm offensive?
Who knows what treats are in store in Jpop's Magical Whimsy Splendiphourus Courtroom Fantastical?!?! What literal and figurative rabbits will he pull out of his giant stovetop hat in his defense?
I for one cannot wait! I pray I can send money somewhere to make it happen as quickly as possible.
Quoted from Richthofen:This sound like anyone you know? Seriously, it’s like all these frauds have something in common. (This is about 38 studios, Curt schillings old company)
[quoted image]
These scams are all the same, and so are these scammers.
Exhibit 801,234:
https://www.gq.com/story/lenny-dykstra-magazine
3BDEEF21-E6C7-4DDB-9901-CB585C881AA4 (resized).jpegQuoted from mbwalker:Wow, I read that story - that's nuts.
Should add, never heard of the guy.
Espn has a great 30 for 30 doc on the 1986 Mets running now and ole Lenny is a featured.
Doesn’t seem like the kind of guy you’d want to trust millions of dollars with…but again, he’s got that same “rock star fuck attitude” that phonies like Mueller all want to project.
He ended up doing some jail time, for his various scams, fraud, and outright theft - tho not as much as he should have, around 6 months. He stole millions and Millions of dollars.
Mueller ain’t famous like Nails, but I think people here who are licking their chops at him doing hard time are gonna be disappointed. It just doesn’t happen.
Quoted from hank527:Coming up on a decade in May
[quoted image][quoted image]
I blame this project's failure on this flyer's distinct lack of whimsy!
Where are the 19th century pointy fingers and script?!
Where's the old-time huckster slang?
This does NOTHING to truly hammer home the whimsy and magic of this project. I mean, yeah, there's a few dumb jokes and weird fonts but absolutely nothing about this has the pizzaz and whimsical whimsy I expect from Jpop!
I will say, I was completely ignorant of the possibility COintaker had anything to do with this. Were they in any way involved, or did Jpop just slap their logo on this invoice to give it some credibility?
Quoted from 6S3NC3:If my memory serves me, Chris was allocated a certain # of preorders to sell to his clients. I think it was 100 or so.
Did the coin taker folks get their money back, or did it all go into the same whimsical Jpop sink hole?
Quoted from JimWilks:Huh? Not defending this idiot at all. Hope he gets all the legal system can throw at him.
One slap on the wrist, coming up!
Still cracks me up how people here keep fantasizing about hard time and prison rape. We all know this doofus is gonna skate!
Quoted from DanQverymuch:From Kulek, to Jpop, to Mueller... how can anyone ever top the third guy? It's mind blowing.
There has to be a movie script in there somewhere. "Pinball Ponzi People" maybe. Or "Pinball Pirates and Pickpockets."
What is it about pinball that attracts this type? I can think of several factors: our desire to be wowed, their desire to be admired, the substantial price of new pins, our willingness to cough up that kind of money on toys, FOMO, the surface appeal of designing a fun thing, our near adulation of past designers...
But looking at how they typically crash and burn, one cannot wonder what the hell they were thinking as time went on. Probably telling themselves that they were trying to make people happy, that they never meant to rip anyone off, that they were forced to do worse and worse things to keep the dream alive as long as possible, that they never intended to do anything but produce pinballs and fulfill their promises. No doubt RM thinks "Lookit, I bought parts and equipment, I hired pinball designers and artists, I didn't just take the money and disappear overseas."
But that's no excuse. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
It's not impossible, though; look at Spooky, for instance. No one trying to get rich helps. Or acting as though they are with other people's money. They invested their own time and money and grew slowly and carefully. Gotta hand it to them.
Far too many pinball in pinball believe in the popular bullshit narrative about Gary stern; that he is a greedy other who wants to steal their money and is laughing at them by producing sub par pinball machines while taking baths in cash. They actually take the fact that Stern is a profitable, feasible pinball company cranking out fun, reliable games personally. It offends them somehow. It enrages some people and it’s totally bizarre. You see it in every reveal thread.
So they embrace fantasy after fantasy and vote with their wallets. It’ll never end till people learn to be happy with reality and stop pining for something they will never have: a pinball machine that satisfies every single want and desire.
These folks really need to find a new hobby. Letting people steal or lose your money on fantasy pinball machines is no way to get back at Gary.
Quoted from spfxted:"shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker", and "tits" .....enjoy!
Yep, that’s all seven !!!
So wait, he sold off the break room pinball collection? Or his personal collection from home he bought with stolen money?
Either way, anybody end up with any of these?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I don't really know much about cruises - do they really cost $54 THOUSAND dollars!? That seems insane.
I'm sure a scrub can get some shitty lower deck inside cabin for a lot cheaper, but do you really expect a wealthy genius like Mueller to not reward himself and his family of the week with anything but the best? When your hard work and ingenuity have brought you the untold riches that us plebes can only dream about, you got gotta go with the 50G cruise.
Quoted from TreyBo69:The doctor seems like a normal family primary care provider. I say this because I looked him up because I wouldn’t put it past Robert to pay for IFV with this money. He has a baby due this month and that’s an easy 50k in costs. (At least something would be delivered on schedule)
Still don’t know how you rack up that kind of bill, besides buying a rack.
Well this Mueller we are talking about, so it probably involved some kind of illegal kickback fraud scheme.
Quoted from TreyBo69:[quoted image]
nyuk nyuk nyuk
1 week later
Quoted from JStoltz:Why don't you reach out and offer to help him? I'm sure you could feign sympathy and regret for this stroke of undeserved ill fortune that has befallen He Who Defined The Total Pinball Experience.
"Oh Great Reformer, Entertainer of Rich Single Moms and Vanquisher of Playfield Dimples-- furnish unto me your WordPress credentials such that I might bring order to your vast Internet Kingdom and preserve Your Legacy, Amen!"
Nice airedale bro!
My main takeaway from this whole thing is that the lowly plebes of pinball simply were not READY for the Total Pinball Ownership Experience. It was way ahead of it's time...like trying to sell a streaming service in 1997. One day - and that day won't be long - Deep Root and Lord Mueller will be venerated as true visionaries, like Van Gogh, not appreciated in their time but now recognized for their genius!
Quoted from JStoltz:Thanks! Actually have two, Walter (1) and Louie (7). Idk how many people told us they weren’t good with kids (too many to count) but they’re both fantastic around our five month old and all our friends/families kids.
I wish one of them would take out our cat though.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Hah, this is probably the fourth or fifth time I’ve posted them in this “Boutique Pinball” thread. Oh well. Sorry, not sorry.
Had an Airedale when I was a kid - Biscuit. WOuldn't say not good with kids but fairly stubborn and not a great listener!
She was a good pooch tho! Never took out a cat but she chased a racoon up a tree once where it died - animal control said it was of a heart attack, out of terror and fear of the KING OF ALL TERRIERS!
Ha…”future forward” designs.
I love how everything deep root related contained nonsense corporate gibberish like that.
Lean and agile!
Quoted from NoQuarters:This was over before it was announced. It's just much more over now. And will be even more over after SEC is done. And much, much, more over after they convene a Grand Jury and hand down indictments.
It has never been more Over.
It gets more over by the week!!
Quoted from hank527:The distraction of all of this should be a lesson. One that keeps repeating. How is Haggis doing with a 12 week date to ship that is now at 30 weeks?
All of this startups are a risk. Anyone asking for preorder money is a risk. Not saying Haggis will not deliver, though I am saying, I am skeptical of any of it.
It boggles my fucking mind that people were happy to send in thousands of dollars on Fathom pre-orders.
I have ZERO evidence or inclination to think it's a deep-root style scam, but so what? I just can't believe that the pre-order-and-pray model is still a thing post Deep Root.
Quoted from Chalkey:What happened there?
TNT Todd decided to partner up with a moron for a terrible pinball book that turned out to be the worst one ever released. And that's saying something, there's a lot of bad pinball books.
In the aftermath of the books release - with people complaining about hundreds of bizarre mistakes that went beyond common typos, and garbage paper stock and pretty much anything else you could complain about - they turned on each other and it got really ugly. Don't need to go into the specifics but lets just say it was fairly insane. Phrases like "you are broke and tricked me into buying your daughter a laptop" were just the surface scrapings!
1 week later
We know there’s no way they had those licenses. I’m still shocked he was openly advertising a Who machine.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I'd like anyone to explain the whole deeproot story without sounding like a maniac.
There's just so much backstory and a million tangents you could go off on. It was a fever dream of a pinball company and it's hard to convey just how batshit they were
This should be a fine starting off point for anybody who needs to get the history and gist of this whole scam - from 2010 or so up to today:
Quoted from benheck:Bryan! You're still kicking!
Also, hopefully people now understand why some of us hated Deeproot so much. They were a destructive force for the industry and also yes, he very clearly planned to be a patent troll.
Coincidentally, soon Robert will be living under a bridge
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Remember the “leave Britney alone!!!!” Folks who couldn’t understand why people were being so mean and picking on this plucky upstart who just wanted to make awesome pinball machines in the face of adversity?
Yeah, I know, seems hard to believe. But there were people who felt that way.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Between the screaming of a new born, a trophy wife who is now attached to a broke bum, and the likelihood of a ten year jail sentence looming… how do you think Robert’s been sleeping lately?
Really well. Because despite all the bullshit he's dealing with, he still knows, deep down inside, he's smarter then everybody else.
Wow NDAs getting shredded left and right here!
FOod Truck sure looks like it would have been a banger.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Working on more stuff. Timeline TBD.
I should also note that I've thus far shared things from at least four former employees. So don't read everything I post as coming from the same persons, time periods, or perspectives (though there are definitely some very commonly held perspectives!).
I'd be interested in knowing when these folks finally broke through the denial stage and starting to move toward acceptance. Was it when the checks started getting delayed? Before? After?
When did the resume polishing start to begin en masse?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Happy Wednesday.
DEEPROOT LIFE
The first year was actually really great. And there were lots of high points between some of the lows in the following years.
The biggest part of the delays was absolutely the engineering. Robert had a grand idea of what “every” deeproot pinball machine should have feature wise. So most/all the times and delays were spent on the engineering and software in that respect. Little work was actually done on game design and custom mechs in comparison.
Robert wanted to get the pinball machines THX certified just so it could have the THX sound effect thing on startup. When THX was contacted, they practically laughed at us lol but they respectfully and rightfully said “sorry, pay us $12k+ and we might think about it.” Robert was told if he really cares that much about the audio he could just make up his own “deeproot audio” standard and it can be whatever he wants it to be. He wasn’t happy about it but that’s basically what he got. Little things like this are the types of wishes/compromises that could be done with Robert.
A lot of guys tried really hard to make things happen and pushed really hard against the will of Robert to get him to compromise on design aspects. Many many times over the years. Not just him but his second and third in command (Robert's buddies who licked the floor where Robert stepped). Craig was the engineering manager and Sean did… well he was a glorified janitor in charge of facilities and gave Robert terrible ideas about how to manufacture a pinball machine.
When we were at Houston, most of us knew this would likely be the culmination of everything and deeproot would never make any real public appearance after. I really enjoyed the Houston show and interacting with all the players.
After Houston we begged Robert to let us polish that machine and sell it as is. He wouldn’t have any of it. Even Jpop was one of the loudest voices in trying to just get RAZA released in a more basic/traditional form (no pinbar, no fancy backbox, etc). But Robert would have none of it. Most of the engineering for the pinbar, lift mech, and backbox was scrapped and redone from scratch after Houston. The wraparound art wasn’t even a thing until Jan 2020.
The deeproot 6 was about as much of a dumpster fire as expected. I remember when they were building the “auditorium” Sean being told it was a waste of money and getting a “mind your own business” feedback from him. That auditorium was supposed to be ready for the March reveal but COVID saved them on that one. Think about how many months between the supposed March release and the deeproot 6 and think about how terrible it would have been in March.
In the last 1 - 1.5 years we barely even saw Robert since I assume he was scared to show his face after missing so many paychecks. Before the first missed paychecks he would stop by a couple times a week to see progress/updates. I stuck it out as much as I could trying to make it work but eventually threw in the towel. I will say when I saw them put the machines up for sale in December I was impressed and thought it might work out but as soon as more delays happened I knew it was done.
If deeproot would have just kept things small and waited for all the R&D to be completed before moving into the huge building and scaling up, I think things would be way different. Heck, even just making Utah not a thing, things would have been way different.
Ultimately, Robert was too naive to realize he isn’t Elon Musk and they weren't engineers at SpaceX. He wanted too much too fast, and he made too many claims that pissed off not only the public but his employees too.
Most people were too afraid to say anything because Robert is intimidating and most people knew they weren’t really needed but wanted to keep collecting the paychecks (when they came). He mostly just made people fear him because “he’s a lawyer with fuck you money” and if he would throw money away with pinball imagine what he would do in a lawsuit. So we all stayed quiet until now lol
When the story of the SEC stuff came out my jaw dropped, but as I thought about it for a couple more seconds a lot more things made sense. I just hope Robert gets what he has coming to him because it’s all 1000% self inflicted and preventable. He legitimately had a chance to make a real pinball company but thought he could be Elon Musk.
I’m still going to probably keep a few things such as a couple never mentioned licensed themes under wraps. Mainly because there are other parties besides deeproot that would probably want to keep that information to themselves. But I will say jpop was working on a theme that I thought was the best theme out of the 10000 Robert wanted to do. I’m definitely pretty bummed that one won’t see the light of day. But hopefully the licenser goes to another pinball company and gets it done. I’m sure any of the many talented designers could make a really nice machine around this theme.
FACILITIES + MANUFACTURING
There was a second building next door that was rented to do some of the heavy machinery stuff. I think the issue was that a lot of the bigger equipment couldn’t fit into the big building and the owner wouldn’t let them take down any walls in order to fit the machinery inside. So the final call was to rent a building next door. I think this was specifically equipment for cutting and sanding playfields. Possibly cabinet pieces too.
We did have the “heavy machinery” area in the main building but since it was right next to the big receiving doors, I don’t think it would have worked long term as they needed to make that space into storage. That’s also why they were trying to make a new receiving door elsewhere in the building but the building owner wouldn’t allow it.
Pretty much everything about the building was a cluster. Probably 2nd biggest mistake was getting that building. If anything, the smaller 2nd building next door would have been a perfect stepping stone from the small office they were working out of initially to get things rolling.
As for quad/octo manufacturing, they talked about that from very early on. It’s pretty obvious now that trying to train low wage unskilled workers to effectively assemble an entire pinball machine from almost start to finish was never going to work. But I think the idea was that we would have ready to go sub assemblies and sub assembly stations, so that the “quad/octo” manufacturing would take mostly ready to go pieces of the machine and slap it together. Something that is certainly much easier said than done. And I think the premise of that entirely is to be able to more easily assemble different machines.
There’s probably more to it than that and I might have missed a few details. But that’s the long and short of octo manufacturing. Oh and quad/octo means 4-8 people working at one station assembling a single pinball machine… I think. Seems like limiting themselves to 4-8 stations is not a great idea but it could have stood for that. Who really knows.
This is all neat to read but it honestly tells us almost zero we didn't already know.
We already knew RAZA was a piece of shit that was beyond saving. I mean...Mueller was right about that. The hilarious part is that he thought another 2 years and the "Pinbar" and fish tank backbox would save it. It still boggles my mind that people actually sent him thousands of dollars so they could buy one of these targets of pointing and laughing and bring it into their homes.
We already knew that Mueller fancied himself as some new icon of new tech/media and labored under delusions of grandeur, thinking he could compete with the likes of Pixar and all of our worshipped tech visionaries. We already knew he saw pinball as just one of the building blocks of what would become an all-encompassing media and tech empire.
We already knew the VIP 6 reveal was a complete disaster, and I remember people saying exactly what your Deep Root Throat said - "Holy fuck this is a catastrophe...can you imagine if this had actually happened a year ago? And considering what a mess this clearly is a couple years into this clown show, isn't this pretty much clear that this is and always will be a complete failure?"
We already knew that "Quad manufacturing" was complete made up bullshit just like everything Rob said, though I'd love to hear more about "cross dynamic staffing" and "lean agile manufacturing" and all the other ridiculous buzzword phrases Rob kept barfing up in his bullshit interviews.
We already knew Rob trashed everybody in the industry publicly, embarrassing himself and everybody who worked there and setting this disaster up for the complete and utter humiliation that was finally realized when the SEC came calling.
I guess the only real nugget of new information from this is that Jpop was actually a voice of reason, and that RM really wasn't under his spell at all, he just became someone else to ignore as he flew this plane right into the mountain.
Not to say this isn't interesting to read, but to me, it's really completely fascinating how completely on point and accurate "the haters" were this whole time. Really, step by step, even our grandest proclamations of what a shit show this was actually jibed with reality. Every point and revelation that was made by Deep Root Throat could have an accompanying half-dozen or so posts made by one of us that lines up perfectly with what these employees are saying. It's almost as if we were there; that's how transparent this whole fucking mess was. The only one who couldn't see it was the grand wizard of failure himself, RM.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:It's the color and the details that make the masterpiece. And when the masterpiece is ready, it will be unveiled for everyone to enjoy.
Hahahah that's a good point...yes these small details are new. Just saying that - big picture - we knew pretty much everything all along, every step of the way.
And yes I had revised my post to include the stuff about Jpop which I did find interesting for sure. Let's just say I need to release my masterpieces only when they are ready from now on.
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:I see what you did there...and I like it! Please keep the whistle blowers coming
Right on. Didn't mean to sound like I didn't appreciate. I'm just surprised by how right we were about everything. Was expecting at least SOME of our shit talk to turn out to be wildly off base.
Nope. It was exactly as incompetent and disastrous as we all said all along.
Bring on the Deep Root Throats!
Quoted from Haymaker:I really wish a lot of the smuggest of supporters hadn't scurried off into the darkness to pretend nothing ever happened. I'd love to get their feedback on all this stuff. The THX sound lmfao that is so funny
The last gasp of the never-dies was one of the Germans offering that "how was this any different than Stern? People preorder those too!"
I think that was pretty much the last we'll hear from them.
Quoted from Haymaker:Virtual reality assembly? JFC this story gets more and more absurd by the day.
Wow somebody was watching that ridiculous movie with Demi Moore, Micheal Douglass, and the VR secret filing systems
I miss the days when someone would come in here once a week complaining about all of the non-RAZA talk and demand a cut-to-the-chase Deep Root update.
Quoted from Engine09:Finally listened to the podcast covering the Deeproot debacle that you were on Levi, great stuff!
Listened to it twice actually.
The crazy thing is you could easily do a 2 hour sequel covering all of the shit that's come out since then.
I nominate Blueberryjohnson!
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