New York, NY
Quoted from pinballinreno:Barbarella and Song of the South are real.
All others are just wistful dreams...
Doubtful.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from pinballinreno:Barbarella ...
Now THAT is a great idea. Ms. Fonda can still do voiceovers just like Elvira!
Quoted from mcbPalisade:Ms. Fonda can still do voiceovers just like Elvira!
It's funny, you don't really notice how actors' voices age until you see a project like this. Sean Connery did the voice work in the From Russia With Love videogame back in 2005. I was super-psyched about it, but boy did he sound old. Ended up wishing they'd gone with an impersonator instead. I haven't listened to Jane Fonda in a while but I imagine there might be some of the same issue.
Quoted from fosaisu:It's funny, you don't really notice how actors' voices age until you see a project like this. Sean Connery did the voice work in the From Russia With Love videogame back in 2005. I was super-psyched about it, but boy did he sound old. Ended up wishing they'd gone with an impersonator instead. I haven't listened to Jane Fonda in a while but I imagine there might be some of the same issue.
Re: voices and age
One case I can think of is Garrison Keillor. When he was younger his voice wasn't interesting (to me). As he aged into his 70s his voice gained real character. Then he was voted off the island...
3 weeks later
All i care about is what pins they are coming out with, but i can't seem to find a list.
Does anyone know what pinballs they are making?
Quoted from Daditude:All i care about is what pins they are coming out with, but i can't seem to find a list.
Does anyone know what pinballs they are making?
Exactly. I cant find any solid info about any games, all I hear is rumours, speculation, hearsay.
Quoted from Sinistarrett:Exactly. I cant find any solid info about any games, all I hear is rumours, speculation, hearsay.
Maybe deeproot should just announce their games now instead of at their HUGE reveal in Texas? Actually, quite nice to see dr keeping everything quiet.
Anyway, here is the list TWIP has on their site. No mention of Ourseler. I certainly Jpop only has one (failed) release.
deeproot Pinball
Announced/Confirmed
Fire and Brimstone | Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland | Magic Girl | Alice in Wonderland | Dennis Nordman Unlicensed | Dennis Nordman Unlicensed 2
Cool thanks Rondogg
deeproot Pinball's launch has been postponed - find the details here:
https://thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-launch-postponed/
Quoted from pin2d:deeproot Pinball's launch has been postponed - find the details here:
https://thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-launch-postponed/
We all kinda new this was going to happen, at least they acknowledged it before Christmas. Blow your pinball dollars now, plenty of time until DeepRoot ever releases a game!
Obviously, they're delaying their launch because they're finding pinball manufacturing too easy.
TWIP: You have said in the past that “Pinball is Easy” – do you still believe that?
RM: I’ve been very clear. Pinball is Easy because there are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity. But everything that goes into making pinball is definitely (not for the faint of heart) complex.
I don't feel like this was the very clear meaning behind "Pinball is Easy". Maybe it's just me.
Quoted from pin2d:deeproot Pinball's launch has been postponed - find the details here:
https://thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-launch-postponed/
"We are spending over $750k a month now on this project ..."
Yikes!!!
Quoted from pin2d:deeproot Pinball's launch has been postponed - find the details here:
Well, hopefully it happens while the overall economy is still on fire.
Quoted from stevevt:I don't feel like this was the very clear meaning behind "Pinball is Easy". Maybe it's just me.
Nah - just the difference between selling ideas and actually delivering product 
The guy made his living selling 'potential' and 'futures' -- the idea that execution is a hell of a lot harder than ideas should be of no surprise and why Robert's over the top bravado has ruffled so many feathers.
Quoted from stevevt:I’ve been very clear. Pinball is Easy because there are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity. But everything that goes into making pinball is definitely (not for the faint of heart) complex.
And no testing or prototypes are needed.
I wish they'd show something at TPF.
LTG : )
Quoted from gweempose:"We are spending over $750k a month now on this project ..."
Yikes!!!
So he's going to have a expense run rate of nearly a million dollars a month. Do the math on what you think his sales projections must be to sustain that kind of expense... then think about the price points he keeps talking about.
Let's assume he plans on a healthy 33% margin. That means he needs over 2.2 million a month in gross revenues just to break even (and this ignores startup costs). If you assume distribution makes at least 10% on sales... and an even 'average' price of 5k USD per unit. That means they need to sell 500 games A MONTH @$4500 to distribution just to break even month to month.
And if they go for some disruptor pricing... the volume numbers just go up of course.
And of course, every month you aren't making those kinds of numbers.. the hole just gets deeper.
This is the kind of stuff that makes people so skeptical of deeproot.
And it's not like pinball is something where you have R&D cycles that ebb and flow in terms of invest... then sell... you're spending that kind of operating expense all the time as you make the next widget in the pipeline.
waiting for levi to come in and make a sarcastic statement about how everyone says stern sucks even tho they are the only ones to ship games at 5k blah blah blah 
Toronto, ON
Quoted from frolic:I know Robert is very bullish on this, but I've said before my biggest mistake with jpop (and other pinball startups in the rainbow days of 5+ years ago) was that I went against my own business instincts and what makes sense.
Right now this just seems like a bonfire of cash, raised from "other people's money".
Quoting myself from 5 months ago. The business case didn’t make sense then and here we are today where things aren’t as easy as was being spun then. The burn rate money is new information and is shocking.
Quoted from frolic:The burn rate money is new information and is shocking.
It's not shocking if it's money laundering. If anything it's low then.
Quoted from jwilson:It's not shocking if it's money laundering. If anything it's low then.
If you are laundrying... you intend to get a percentage of your money THROUGH the system.. not just burn it on employees, taxes, and all other kinds of trackable expenses not going back to your network
Quoted from flynnibus:So he's going to have a expense run rate of nearly a million dollars a month. Do the math on what you think his sales projections must be to sustain that kind of expense... then think about the price points he keeps talking about.
Let's assume he plans on a healthy 33% margin. That means he needs over 2.2 million a month in gross revenues just to break even (and this ignores startup costs). If you assume distribution makes at least 10% on sales... and an even 'average' price of 5k USD per unit. That means they need to sell 500 games A MONTH @$4500 to distribution just to break even month to month.
And if they go for some disruptor pricing... the volume numbers just go up of course.
And of course, every month you aren't making those kinds of numbers.. the hole just gets deeper.
This is the kind of stuff that makes people so skeptical of deeproot.
And it's not like pinball is something where you have R&D cycles that ebb and flow in terms of invest... then sell... you're spending that kind of operating expense all the time as you make the next widget in the pipeline.
Good analysis. This is the stuff I mean of not making sense.
and we all know from history, showing up with a game at a show is the EASY part. THEN the real challenge starts.
This is the most impressive statement in the whole interview-
"using additional time making sure launch titles are code and AV complete"
I can't think of another show that suits a big reveal by deeproot other than TPF, which has become the best show out there, right in their backyard. This is very disappointing. Unless JJP surprises us, there may not be a big reveal of anything at TPF.
Quoted from Rondogg:I can't think of another show that suits a big reveal by deeproot other than TPF, which has become the best show out there, right in their backyard. This is very disappointing. Unless JJP surprises us, there may not be a big reveal of anything at TPF.
Great. I'm going this year and was looking forward to just playing a bunch of cool games, not a dog and pony show of people competing for Pinsiders' attention.
Just as Paul Masson will not sell any wine before it' time, I'm encouraged to see the Deep Root folks also adhering to this formula. Only when everything is just right will these games be revealed.
Quoted from flynnibus:If you are laundrying... you intend to get a percentage of your money THROUGH the system.. not just burn it on employees, taxes, and all other kinds of trackable expenses not going back to your network
Fake employees, fake invoices, etc.
Hey, I watched Ozarks, I know how it works!
Quoted from gweempose:"We are spending over $750k a month now on this project ..."
Yikes!!!
Personally, I would stop noodling around, focus on just *one* product, and get that product out the door just to get some income rolling in. It doesn't even have to be a pin--maybe parts, PCBs, mods, decorations, bobbleheads--whatever.
At the rate the company is hemorrhaging money, it would take years to earn back just enough to break even, if at all.
I'm seeing some of the same mistakes being repeated as with the other companies that have collapsed. But, I don't have any money down on the venture, so they can do whatever they want. If they succeed, great. If they collapse, that'll be unfortunate. All the boastful statements and secrecy aren't enough to get me to care too much about what they might be working on.
Quoted from ForceFlow:But, I don't have any money down on the venture, so they can do whatever they want.
Like you, I'd probably rather eat kryptonite than be one of the investors in this venture.
Quoted from o-din:Like you, I'd probably rather eat Kryptonite than be one of the investors in this venture.
apparently kryptonite is more real than deep root games at this point
Quoted from o-din:$750k a month for a year alone is almost 10 million. That's a lot of investor capital right there.
Right, and how do you ever actually make that back and start turning a profit? IF they are intending to sell machines at a lower price point predominantly ($5k+/- was referenced, right?) and even for a manufacturer like Stern we can speculate with reasonable certainty that their cost is likely around $3000 per machine to manufacture then we are talking about a profit margin of around $2000. You have to sell ALOT of pinball machines at a margin like that to not only recoup this MASSIVE upfront development investment (10 million +) but also pay to keep the lights on moving forward. Remember they haven't had to make any large orders or really ramp up manufacturing so that 750k per month is going to escalate even higher once they have to actually start buying parts and paying assembly staff.
Remember Heighway went out of business at around 2.5m debt..
$750k/month spend is likely a made up figure to puff themselves up/make themselves look bigger.
Even with some inflated numbers I sure wouldn't be spouting off that information in public, nor would I boast about how many people I've allegedly got on staff.
It's definitely an insurmountable figure if true, and likely an insurmountable figure if untrue.
Quoted from flynnibus:If you assume distribution makes at least 10% on sales... and an even 'average' price of 5k USD per unit. That means they need to sell 500 games A MONTH @$4500 to distribution just to break even month to month.
Well i think they are planning on selling at least that many games a month.
Next question, how do you go from zero to MAKING 500 games a month and getting them out the door?
Stern does about double that with 325 employees. Do the math.
The biggest absolute CRUSHER is delays while you have that kind of cash burn.
Noodling and doodling to be the best is one thing but man you gotta stop the BURN.
Quoted from Robotoes:$750k/month spend is likely a made up figure to puff themselves up/make themselves look bigger.
I'd say that isn't BS. I've seen the local facility and they have another one in Utah.
You know what they say, "you gotta spend money to make money" 
This will either pan out before they run out of money OR it will be an epic failure. If they survive it will be a long journey out of the hole.
Quoted from iceman44:I'd say that isn't BS. I've seen the local facility and they have another one in Utah.
You know what they say, "you gotta spend money to make money"
This will either pan out before they run out of money OR it will be an epic failure. If they survive it will be a long journey out of the hole.
Go big or go home
Quoted from 2pupPinz:Go big or go home
Start small and within your means, and grow over time and to meet customer demand.
So I'm guessing that $750k isn't just salaries of designers, rent, parts, etc.. I'm sure a big part of that is building a factory (both physical material and designers to lay things out), so that monthly burn could go down. Who knows what the investors have put in, what Robert is putting in, what Robert's other companies are playing the "cash cow" until this company gets off the ground.
I just don't know why people can't learn from previous endeavors. JPOP didn't succeed because he had almost no business plan. Heighway promised the world and hemorrhaged pre-order money. If every new startup would start out more like spooky, we might actually see more businesses stay in business. Hell, I even had high hopes for Homepin at one point.. Making arcade stuff and pinball parts to keep cashflow going, making all the parts for the first pinball so you could theoretically supply retailers. Then the CEO turned into a PR nightmare, his first pinball sucked, and now he's shuffling pre-order money around to keep the business floating because he can't crank out more than 20 games a month.
All this talk about how he can’t sustain, no business plan and chock this up as a loss already might be surprised. What seems like big money to one person could be a drop in the bucket of another. In the end, if he has tons of money (his own, not investors). He might not care if this is turning a profit right away. It could be his new hobby or possibly a legacy he wants to leave behind. There are people that spend way more on fancy airplanes that have a really fast rate of depreciation and don’t think twice about it. The last auto auction I went to had multiple million dollar single cars selling.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Start small and within your means, and grow over time and to meet customer demand.
Agreed, that is a good business plan, but I don’t think this guy does anything the normal way. Should be interesting to watch either way.
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