Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from Roostking:Its still pinball. Not pinamations. Most $$$ and focus should be on gameplay, not backboard animations.
I'm always amused when I see people play a JJP game....they hardly ever look up at the big tele on the backglass. All that money spent on fancy-arsed animations, which adds hardly anything to the gameplay. It's a glorified scoreboard, that's all.
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:I'm always amused when I see people play a JJP game....they hardly ever look up at the big tele on the backglass. All that money spent on fancy-arsed animations, which adds hardly anything to the gameplay. It's a glorified scoreboard, that's all.
I think the LCD screens on pins are pretty cool...when you are watching someone else play.
Quoted from Roostking:Its still pinball. Not pinamations. Most $$$ and focus should be on gameplay, not backboard animations.
I'm not disputing that, but if you are going to half ass what is a major part of the presentation, you are doing it wrong. May as well go back to DMD or alphanumeric, which would be absolutely fine with me in 99% of games. Instead, we get people whining about smaller LCD's. On that same note, what is the point of a backbox anymore? You could put what is there in the cabinet, shielded, on rubber, and do away with the backbox completely. Throw a small display in similar to Circus Voltaire. You aren't looking and admiring the backglass when you are playing. No point wasting resources on it. Same goes with cabinet art, butter cabs, and well..playfield art. Who needs it? ...see where that line of thinking goes?
Quoted from Zablon:I'm not disputing that, but if you are going to half ass what is a major part of the presentation, you are doing it wrong. May as well go back to DMD or alphanumeric, which would be absolutely fine with me in 99% of games. Instead, we get people whining about smaller LCD's. On that same note, what is the point of a backbox anymore? You could put what is there in the cabinet, shielded, on rubber, and do away with the backbox completely. Throw a small display in similar to Circus Voltaire. You aren't looking and admiring the backglass when you are playing. No point wasting resources on it.
without a "backbox" I don't know that it would look right. At the very least you need a thin piece of art (to grab people's attention walking by).
Stern will never get rid of the backbox now because in some interview gomez admitted the reason why the switch has been moved up to the backbox is because it's much simpler to certify with fewer components (it also never changes). If they kept the power in the bottom of the cabinet, I believe every time they do a new game it has to be re-certified (because it's a different playfield above it).
Multimorphic tried the no back box thing with their early p3 protos. I don’t think anyone liked it. I’ll admit as well, it looks super weird. And the back glass still draws people in to play. Maybe not too useful now but not going anywhere either.
IMO, those big LCD screens have attracted more curious newbies to the hobby than most anything else. I'm convinced that location games, especially bars, caused a lot of necks to snap. People could watch from a distance without feeling like intruding on the players space. And like a bread crumb trail, they would begin to inch closer to see how the animations corresponded to the playfield action. (No comparison to the DMD)
WOZ came out 8 years ago, other manufactures soon followed suit and look how much our hobby has grown since then.
Disclaimer: I have no scientific evidence to prove my theory but I have been drunk in a bar.
Quoted from Zablon:Throw a small display in similar to Circus Voltaire. You aren't looking and admiring the backglass when you are playing. No point wasting resources on it.
Did you just ask for the Pinbar?
Quoted from Mr68:IMO, those big LCD screens have attracted more curious newbies to the hobby than most anything else. I'm convinced that location games, especially bars, caused a lot of necks to snap. People could watch from a distance without feeling like intruding on the players space. And like a bread crumb trail, they would begin to inch closer to see how the animations corresponded to the playfield action. (No comparison to the DMD)
WOZ came out 8 years ago, other manufactures soon followed suit and look how much our hobby has grown since then.
Disclaimer: I have no scientific evidence to prove my theory but I have been drunk in a bar.
I’m not disputing that LCD has been a good evolution attraction wise but it doesn’t translate in bigger earnings per se. We have dmd games standing next to lcd games that earn more than the lcd…
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Did you just ask for the Pinbar?
Haha, not really. I was just pushing the point that resources on art is a big thing in pinball. Yes, it would look weird without a backbox because it has been there for so long it's a habit. Additionally, as some pointed out...if you looked over in a lineup against a wall...you wouldn't actually see anything appealing to catch your interest. However, none of that negates that a backbox is actually an antiquated part of pinball that does NOTHING for gameplay. That being said..if I'm buying it for home use...does that still matter?
It is interesting about the certification though.
Disclaimer: I've been watching a bunch of Tastebuds. Debating over stupid things that you don't really believe.
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:I'm always amused when I see people play a JJP game....they hardly ever look up at the big tele on the backglass. All that money spent on fancy-arsed animations, which adds hardly anything to the gameplay. It's a glorified scoreboard, that's all.
No, actually, it’s freaking awesome. There’s plenty of opportunities to see what’s going on and it’s chockablock with important game information. Oh yeah, and its gorgeous.
Are DMD animations just a glorified scoreboard too? I dig good dots, and some of my favorite pinball moments have occurred with something rad happening on a dmd. Same now with the LCD. Rad LCD = radder pinball experience.
You may prefer spinning white wheels with numbers on them. You be you.
And yes, radder is totally a word. Ask PJ Soles.
Quoted from Mr68:Disclaimer: I have no scientific evidence to prove my theory but I have been drunk in a bar.
I find this much more convincing than having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
As I've said many, many times the LCD adds a HUGE "content liability" to a pin's development.
It also blows out the hardware requirements. You could, no joke, run everything a pin needs on the guts of an Amazon Dash button.... Except for the video.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:No, actually, it’s freaking awesome. There’s plenty of opportunities to see what’s going on and it’s chockablock with important game information. Oh yeah, and its gorgeous.
Are DMD animations just a glorified scoreboard too? I dig good dots, and some of my favorite pinball moments have occurred with something rad happening on a dmd. Same now with the LCD. Rad LCD = radder pinball experience.//<![CDATA[
window.__mirage2 = {petok:"2ecb381c348d370408a88c72db16e224f12ed9b5-1626007740-1800"};
//]]>You may prefer spinning white wheels with numbers on them. You be you.
And yes, radder is totally a word. Ask PJ Soles.
Right on TFA
It does make me laugh when people say you can't look at the back box while you're playing the game . Sure there are times when you concentrate on the bottom third of the playfield while in multiball but other than that , unless you're wearing a neck brace , there are lots of opportunities to look at the screen on the back box .
Let's say you could choose ACDC with the original DMD or one with a LCD screen that played live concert footage and their film clips .
It's a no brainer what most people would choose .
Quoted from benheck:As I've said many, many times the LCD adds a HUGE "content liability" to a pin's development.
It took years for pinside to accept this reality… even after it happened
Quoted from screaminr:Let's say you could choose ACDC with the original DMD or one with a LCD screen that played live concert footage and their film clips .
It's a no brainer what most people would choose .
Color DMD 
AC/DC’s dots in color are awesome. I’m a big fan of retro games & pixel art, and AC/DC’s is fantastic. Great character design & animation - and DMDs clearly shows that on a black background. Really easy to glance & see what’s going on…LCD games, you really have to trap & then concentrate for a while to figure out what you’re looking at.
Quoted from benheck:As I've said many, many times the LCD adds a HUGE "content liability" to a pin's development.
It also blows out the hardware requirements. You could, no joke, run everything a pin needs on the guts of an Amazon Dash button.... Except for the video.
Yes it’s a huge time and resources sink for developers.
After the actual layout, the LCD screen is one of the more interesting things during a reveal. Especially when there isnt a lot of high quality assets with a theme. Some games don’t get enough credit for how well designed their LCD content is
Quoted from benheck:As I've said many, many times the LCD adds a HUGE "content liability" to a pin's development.
It also blows out the hardware requirements. You could, no joke, run everything a pin needs on the guts of an Amazon Dash button.... Except for the video.
But try selling a pin without an LCD now. Slash the price big time and see how it works out
Huge improvement from day one. Only regret is Stern didn’t quite have it ready for GB.
Quoted from iceman44:But try selling a pin without an LCD now. Slash the price big time and see how it works out
Huge improvement from day one. Only regret is Stern didn’t quite have it ready for GB.
Man....could you imagine? GB with an LCD would have been ridiculous, still one of my favorite games to this day, regardless of the gap, and the bad karma associated with it (thanks JT).
Quoted from iceman44:But try selling a pin without an LCD now. Slash the price big time and see how it works out
Huge improvement from day one. Only regret is Stern didn’t quite have it ready for GB.
For the pros out there, what % of the overall development budget goes into a pin.
Offer a pin at that "discount" and lets see if they sell.
CGC has it figured out. HD dots. They look better than you remember the original dots and they have the throwback charm of dots that most people associate with pinball. Plus they don’t need a bunch of 3D artists.
I do wonder if they’ll switch to LCD for their original titles.
It was inevitable and unavoidable but LCD def the worst thing to happen to pinball in recent memory. The display is really one of the least important aspects of a pinball machine, yet it now requires the greatest expenditure of time and resources.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It was inevitable and unavoidable but LCD def the worst thing to happen to pinball in recent memory. The display is really one of the least important aspects of a pinball machine, yet it now requires the greatest expenditure of time and resources.
I think for the player this is true. But for the viewer - the person watching someone play - the LCD is an unavoidable evolution. The DMD was for the player. The LCD is for all the strap hangers wondering if they want to drop a buck to play the game.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It was inevitable and unavoidable but LCD def the worst thing to happen to pinball in recent memory. The display is really one of the least important aspects of a pinball machine, yet it now requires the greatest expenditure of time and resources.
Not to mention more expensive licensing to get video assets.
I like that dots allow for an artistic interpretation of a license, instead of just playing an already existing video clip. Ignoring some of the Stern games that just played video clips on a DMD of course, those looked terrible.
Edit - had an old attachment in the hopper and can't seem to delete it.
lewbowski (resized).pngQuoted from iceman44:But try selling a pin without an LCD now. Slash the price big time and see how it works out
Huge improvement from day one. Only regret is Stern didn’t quite have it ready for GB.
Exactly. It's mandatory and not even a debate. I look up at displays while playing and it's the first thing you see when looking at the game. Dmd's were better than basic displays, and lcd's better than dmd's period. You could also argue pinball doesn't need good artwork. Hiring professional artists is also expensive. You could get a 7 year old to draw out some things on the pf. C'mon.
Quoted from benheck:Not to mention more expensive licensing to get video assets.
Any guessing what Stern's cost is per pin on licensing (pick a title)? Is it a one time fee or per pin? Or both?
Not the code to implement, just the licensing cost.
Quoted from jawjaw:You could also argue pinball doesn't need good artwork
Not successfully.
Quoted from guitarded:Not successfully.
Good art is probably the best ROI in development. Really covers up how barren some games are.
Quoted from mbwalker:Any guessing what Stern's cost is per pin on licensing (pick a title)? Is it a one time fee or per pin? Or both?
Not the code to implement, just the licensing cost.
Typically in such licensing arrangements (not specific to pinball) you can have elements that include a baseline fee, and then other factors that would depend on the size of the run and term of use. Example: Maybe you end up paying $50k to use something for up to 10k units in a period not to exceed 3 years. Or maybe you'd negotiate a model that said you really want to pay per unit, but have a longer term... etc etc. Flat cost, per unit, minimums, maximums, they are all potentials.
It's all negotiations, not rules. Tho you have common expectations/conventions the licensor or agent may work within to streamline the process.
The deals are going to be hammered out looking at what is the minimum paid, maximum paid, per unit avg and duration. The parties will negotiate to the terms they feel fits their needs.
Quoted from jawjaw:Exactly. It's mandatory and not even a debate. I look up at displays while playing and it's the first thing you see when looking at the game. Dmd's were better than basic displays, and lcd's better than dmd's period. You could also argue pinball doesn't need good artwork. Hiring professional artists is also expensive. You could get a 7 year old to draw out some things on the pf. C'mon.
Just got back on to my BM66 today. What a great game thanks to Lyman.
No LCD? No way. The LCD makes that game along with many others now.
TBL, Alien, STH, EHOH, GNR, Wonka. Just going down my rows. Elvira herself completes another Lyman masterpiece
Maybe JP and AIQ could have slid by? BUT hell no, give me the LCD
Who doesn’t glance at their LCD? C’mon!
And to your point, the art? Of course it sells games!!!
Even Spooky doesn’t cut corners on art now
Quoted from iceman44:Just got back on to my BM66 today. What a great game thanks to Lyman.
No LCD? No way. The LCD makes that game along with many others now.
TBL, Alien, STH, EHOH, GNR, Wonka. Just going down my rows. Elvira herself completes another Lyman masterpiece
Maybe JP and AIQ could have slid by? BUT hell no, give me the LCD
Who doesn’t glance at their LCD? C’mon!
And to your point, the art? Of course it sells games!!!
Just got back from the PHoF, wanted to play the Mando pro but no chance, surrounded by small crowds the whole time. The video assets on the LCD were actually getting cheered a little bit. That title must be killing on location.
Quoted from iceman44:Just got back on to my BM66 today. What a great game thanks to Lyman.
No LCD? No way. The LCD makes that game along with many others now.
TBL, Alien, STH, EHOH, GNR, Wonka. Just going down my rows. Elvira herself completes another Lyman masterpiece
Maybe JP and AIQ could have slid by? BUT hell no, give me the LCD
Who doesn’t glance at their LCD? C’mon!
And to your point, the art? Of course it sells games!!!
Even Spooky doesn’t cut corners on art now
I think we can all agree the LCD is fantastic when the manufacturers get all the assets.
Quoted from cooked71:I think we can all agree the LCD is fantastic when the manufacturers get all the assets.
This is why licensed themes will become the norm. Yes there is a not insignificant licensing fee, but when you think of the time and cost of a single programmer to create novel assets it really starts to become cost prohibitive or just a crappy effort to save on cost.
Quoted from Lounge:I think for the player this is true. But for the viewer - the person watching someone play - the LCD is an unavoidable evolution. The DMD was for the player. The LCD is for all the strap hangers wondering if they want to drop a buck to play the game.
Who cares about the 'viewers'? I've never understood this mentality. I hate people watching me, and I certainly hate watching tournament players, most boring thing ever. Trap. Shoot. Repeat. May as well be watching golf.
Quoted from pookycade:This is why licensed themes will become the norm
Will become? They’ve been the norm for 20+ years.
Quoted from Rarehero:Will become? They’ve been the norm for 20+ years.
For posterity's sake the first two DMD machines were licensed, Gilligan's Island and Terminator 2, both released 30 years ago! I realize you know this, but I wanted to get it documented in the thread. 
Quoted from m00nmuppet:Just got back from the PHoF, wanted to play the Mando pro but no chance, surrounded by small crowds the whole time. The video assets on the LCD were actually getting cheered a little bit. That title must be killing on location.
too bad tim knows what hes doing, otherwise he might have bought 3 of those things and people would be playing the other two for $1.00 a pop rather than standing around watching.
Quoted from Zablon:Who cares about the 'viewers'? I've never understood this mentality. I hate people watching me, and I certainly hate watching tournament players, most boring thing ever. Trap. Shoot. Repeat. May as well be watching golf.
Any operator with a routed machine that wants to make money.
LCD isn't going away no matter how much work it takes to create assets. That would be like saying "You know, back in the early 80s they were limited to 16x16 sprites and like 16 colors and they figured out how to make video games fun in like 3 months. Now I have to wait 5 years for the next grand theft auto". As retro as pinball is, we still want innovation.
It's sort of like how people say they want original themes, if someone made a simple alphanumeric machine nobody would buy it (with the exception of a remake).. and those that did would try to dump it for a loss.
DMD's were also just making all pinball machines look dated.
Of course people had no idea that they were still being made, when brand new games looked like they were built when dot matrix printers with green-bar paper were still being used.
LCDs are awesome and, in my opinion, required today.
DMD art is a cop-out these days. Make the investment and make me some badass LCD animations and stuff.
Pretty sure you can get Unity or Godot to run on a potato these days, and SoCs made for mobile devices can be used pretty cheaply. So far nobody has built a control system that is close to the level of Spike 2.
Visit a casino to see why LCDs are important for attracting new eyeballs.
Sure, there are people out there that will say they prefer the old one armed bandits, but they are a shrinking (and dying off) demographic.
From reports, NIB sales to home buyers has never been greater. So the products the companies are producing these days, complete with LCDs, is what these buyers are looking for.
Back to deeproot: I think it was a mistake to invest so much in "disney quality art" and then put such a small display on the machines.
Quoted from frolic:Back to deeproot: I think it was a mistake to invest so much in "disney quality art" and then put such a small display on the machines.
What Machines?
Licenses... Between 30-100k down then 50-150 ish per game.
Video... Sometimes you get it all, sometimes you pay by the minute or have a fixed amount you can use.
Period... Usually 3 years.
For example what DR spent bailing out Zidware was more than Stern paid to license Star Wars.
Robert. When 20 people tell you not to hire someone.... Maybe don't hire them?
Quoted from Lounge:Any operator with a routed machine that wants to make money.
That has never made any difference in if I put a quarter in or not. Interestingly what I do notice is that people don't like to wait while their friends play, so they play a different game.
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