Quoted from Lounge:Can it get any worse for them at this point??
Absolutely
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from benheck:One of the many things Kaneda is right about is how engineers are the true unsung heroes of pinball. I see this with my CGC game, the skill Pete is bringing to my concepts.
John would be very well suited to a creative director or art director role, but investors don't realize that and expect that he can do everything. Then are shocked when he can't.
I've posited this before but it bears repeating - how many Scott Danesis or Keith Elwins have gone undiscovered because so many rich dudes keep chasing the same purple dragon?
In all fairness, both of these guys, Elwin and Danesi pretty much discovered themselves armed with their own homebrews showing their capabilities with a functional product...
Boulder, CO
A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Pinsider Screwloose and his son-in-law asked questions during the informal tour and were allowed to take pictures which he posted in the Haggis thread. You can read his own words but he seemed very impressed by what he saw and felt reassured about his money and machine.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jaws-by-haggis-pinball/page/26#post-6351352
Quite a contrast to parking lot pictures and the stonewalling that Deeproot customers are forced to endure.
Deeproot probably doesn't let anyone in because it's likely there is not much to see. No line, No assembly. Likely there is Nothing new since they let Cary Hardy and the others in months and months ago.
Quoted from Mr68:A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Pinsider Screwloose and his son-in-law asked questions during the informal tour and were allowed to take pictures which he posted in the Haggis thread. You can read his own words but he seemed very impressed by what he saw and felt reassured about his money and machine quality.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jaws-by-haggis-pinball/page/26#post-6351352
Quite a contrast to parking lot pictures and the stonewalling that Deeproot customers are forced to endure.
Kim, you know full well that Icepop has an imaginary friend that plays Food Truck every day and says it’s awesome! And that RAZA is even better. Who needs pictures and a factory tour when you can have a fake person not playing a fake game?
Quoted from Mr68:A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Pinsider Screwloose and his son-in-law asked questions during the informal tour and were allowed to take pictures which he posted in the Haggis thread. You can read his own words but he seemed very impressed by what he saw and felt reassured about his money and machine quality.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jaws-by-haggis-pinball/page/26#post-6351352
Quite a contrast to parking lot pictures and the stonewalling that Deeproot customers are forced to endure.
You could argue Haggis is running a better con with that logic. I didn't even knew Haggis existed until not long ago. Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I have not seen one of their games anywhere. Just talk and preorders. Sounds exactly like all the other startups where everyone is full of excitement and saying it's going to be different this time. Hope it works out for them and same for Deeproot.
Well if you want to look at facts. 3 people have a Celts game in their possession and we saw 4 more in the pics today that are getting built.
How many people have a Deeproot machine in their possession?
Quoted from jawjaw:You could argue Haggis is running a better con with that logic. I didn't even knew Haggis existed until not long ago. Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I have not seen one of their games anywhere. Just talk and preorders. Sounds exactly like all the other startups where everyone is full of excitement and saying it's going to be different this time. Hope it works out for them and same for Deeproot.
Quoted from Mr68:A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Looks like a very nice hobby workshop but I can't imagine 50 Fathoms a month coming out of there. I wish them luck.
Quoted from jawjaw:You could argue Haggis is running a better con with that logic. I didn't even knew Haggis existed until not long ago. Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I have not seen one of their games anywhere. Just talk and preorders. Sounds exactly like all the other startups where everyone is full of excitement and saying it's going to be different this time. Hope it works out for them and same for Deeproot.
That is your shortcomings.
They’ve been at shows… the journey has been on YouTube…. They have customers… they have shown and promoted obtainable goals.
That’s how they differ and why they have a different reputation
Couldn't agree more. Played Celts 2 years ago at Expo, fully working prototype and fun game. Watch his videos of the design and construction process. Starting small like Spooky, building up - No doubt they will be successful.
Quoted from yancy:Looks like a very nice hobby workshop but I can't imagine 50 Fathoms a month coming out of there. I wish them luck.
That wasn't a Pinball News or TWIP article. It was a post by a Pinsider using his cell phone for pictures.
If you guys want to get caught up on over two years worth of videos, you will find that Haggis has accumulated a butt load of expensive manufacturing equipment and will be machining many of their own parts. Everything from brackets to playfield inserts.
Haggis has also been vetted by Planetary Pinball to reproduce Fathom and that lends a lot of credibility in my view.
I do agree, 50 Fathoms a month is an aggressive goal and they will need to prove themselves on that.
Attached are some Google images I grabbed of Haggis's new facility most likely taken before they moved in. 103 Atlantic Drive Keysborough, 3173 Australia
Back on topic. Note the large truck delivery door that Deeproot doesn't have.
image0 (resized).jpgimage1 (resized).jpgimage2 (resized).jpgimage4 (resized).jpgimage5 (resized).jpgQuoted from flynnibus:That is your shortcomings.
They’ve been at shows… the journey has been on YouTube…. They have customers… they have shown and promoted obtainable goals.
That’s how they differ and why they have a different reputation
And they’re HammerTested goddammit!
Quoted from Ferret:Doesn’t hurt that the Haggis guys are incredibly friendly.
Not arguing anything against them. Being nice doesn't exactly make pinball production easier is all I'm saying. With all the failures and drama of pinball startups, it just surprises my how easily people jump on board the next one with things like a smile and large bay door.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:And they’re HammerTested goddammit!
pssshhh... not impressed until they are throwing them off roofs and there's no dimpling!
Quoted from Mr68:That wasn't a Pinball News or TWIP article. It was a post by a Pinsider using his cell phone for pictures.
If you guys want to get caught up on over two years worth of videos, you will find that Haggis has accumulated a butt load of expensive manufacturing equipment and will be machining many of their own parts. Everything from brackets to playfield inserts.
Haggis has also been vetted by Planetary Pinball to reproduce Fathom and that lends a lot of credibility in my view.
I do agree, 50 Fathoms a month is an aggressive goal and they will need to prove themselves on that.
Attached are some Google images I grabbed of Haggis's new facility most likely taken before they moved in. 103 Atlantic Drive Keysborough, 3173 Australia
Back on topic. Note the large truck delivery door that Deeproot doesn't have. [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
That to picture reminds me of Pinball Life. Upstairs party area, long wall of shelving. Open area for dual row of pinball machines set up. 
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Regarding Haggis. I saw on a video that they have options to the consumer for playfield coating. Typical CC and one option is a proprietary non-dimpling playfield process. Anyone know anything about that non-dimpling process? Has anyone here chosen that for their Celts or Fathom?
Quoted from Mr68:Haggis has accumulated a butt load of expensive manufacturing equipment and will be machining many of their own parts. Everything from brackets to playfield inserts.
Mistake #1. Hopefully they don't make too many.
Quoted from Mr68:Haggis has also been vetted by Planetary Pinball to reproduce Fathom and that lends a lot of credibility in my view
I think the value of that has gone downhill over the years 
Quoted from jawjaw:Not arguing anything against them. Being nice doesn't exactly make pinball production easier is all I'm saying. With all the failures and drama of pinball startups, it just surprises my how easily people jump on board the next one with things like a smile and large bay door.
Note many of their vocal supporters here are Aussies too... they want to see a home team succeed. Homepin had alot of the same domestic support built in too... until he ruined it all. And certainly you can't blame them for wanting domestic machines vs the insane market they deal with for international importing and market pricing from Stern.
Quoted from benheck:If my theory is correct then the "we give up" update will be pretty soon.
Unless they are actually going for it in which case I'd expect more delay announcements.
Is that legal advice?
That sounds like legal advice.
Quoted from benheck:If my theory is correct then the "we give up" update will be pretty soon.
Unless they are actually going for it in which case I'd expect more delay announcements.
My money is on one of those options as well . If they were getting ready to build something you’d be hearing about promised calls to preorder folks about all their custom options.
I wonder if the next update will ask the pre-order guys for even more money. Either pay us more, or drop out. That would be a great way to ensure enough people drop out so that they can throw in the towel.
Quoted from benheck:If my theory is correct then the "we give up" update will be pretty soon.
Unless they are actually going for it in which case I'd expect more delay announcements.
I think they will string the preorders along another couple months and then throw in the towel. Running on ego yet.
Two or more months of delay announcements before they get to the end is my guess. It's all ego, try to save face, smoke clouds of excuses and blame failure on "circumstances beyond their control" or whatever to cement the end. "We tried" blah blah blah when they toss it in.
Carlisle, ON
Quoted from Mr68:Back on topic. Note the large truck delivery door that Deeproot doesn't have.
I think the lack of a truck door is the absolute least of Deeproot's many problems in getting games to buyers.
Quoted from yancy:Mistake #1. Hopefully they don't make too many.
Agreed. Reminds me of Heighway Pinball.
Quoted from NoQuarters:I think they will string the preorders along another couple months and then throw in the towel. Running on ego yet.
Two or more months of delay announcements before they get to the end is my guess. It's all ego, try to save face, smoke clouds of excuses and blame failure on "circumstances beyond their control" or whatever to cement the end. "We tried" blah blah blah when they toss it in.
You guys are gonna be severely disappointed. But I appreciate the tenacity. 
Quoted from JimWilks:I think the lack of a truck door is the absolute least of Deeproot's many problems in getting games to buyers.
There is a big truck door in the back. I’ll take a pic for you
Cars in the lot update coming early next week
RAZA must be really good. It's been out for months (according to what deeproot said in December. I haven't been around since) and I haven't seen any for sale. No one wants to give theirs up! Did all these games come when extra bolts so people could bolt them to the floor? Congrats to deeproot on your success!
Quoted from jawjaw:Being nice doesn't exactly make pinball production easier is all I'm saying.
No, it doesn't, but being nice DOES earn a lot of slack from buyers when things go wrong or get delayed... especially amongst the majority of folks here who are hobbyists looking to buy a cool toy and don't really "need" the game at a certain time.
Quoted from iceman44:There is a big truck door in the back. I’ll take a pic for you
Cars in the lot update coming early next week
Knock on the door and get your contractually promised tour already
Sunshine
Quoted from jawjaw:Not arguing anything against them. Being nice doesn't exactly make pinball production easier is all I'm saying. With all the failures and drama of pinball startups, it just surprises my how easily people jump on board the next one with things like a smile and large bay door.
Exactly jawjaw . I hope for all the success with Haggis, they’re in my home city. Once the Fathoms start rolling off the line . Thats when I’ll sit up and take notice. First the 200 Celts need to be finished first according to the recent update vid, then Fathom begins . A quick Fathom video of the proto game would be most welcome right now.I dont understand why that hasn’t happened yet. July is when fathom starts, so dual production from the factory?
Do you remember the announcement years ago about the Medieval Madness remake and the Croc Hunter pin that were to be made here in Melbourne ?
Quoted from Ferret:No, it doesn't, but being nice DOES earn a lot of slack from buyers when things go wrong or get delayed... especially amongst the majority of folks here who are hobbyists looking to buy a cool toy and don't really "need" the game at a certain time.
Right. Anyone questioning the finances of Haggis or counting cars in the parking lot? That building looks expensive. If they indeed bought a bunch of expensive equipment and gone down the road of designed and building their own parts instead of buying off the shelf isn't that a little bit concerning? Doesn't sound all that different from the likes of Deeproot and Heighway starting out to me.
Quoted from Bublehead:Doing your own tooling for parts no longer in production is not a harbinger of doom... give Haggis some credit.
Comparing Deeproot to Haggis is an insult to what Haggis has already achieved and will be achieving full stop.
YouTube Haggis Pinball and watch there progress.
Quoted from Bublehead:Doing your own tooling for parts no longer in production is not a harbinger of doom... give Haggis some credit.
Agreed.
Once they are up and running, Planetary Pinball will stock those missing production parts to be sold on their website. Not only will this be an additional revenue stream for Haggis but also a boon to the restoration hobbyist and the home brew community.
For a two year old company that has kept promises and achieved goals, some of you guys sure have some fancy theory's about Haggis. Especially considering you just found out about them a month ago.
Quoted from jawjaw:Right. Anyone questioning the finances of Haggis or counting cars in the parking lot? That building looks expensive. If they indeed bought a bunch of expensive equipment and gone down the road of designed and building their own parts instead of buying off the shelf isn't that a little bit concerning? Doesn't sound all that different from the likes of Deeproot and Heighway starting out to me.
People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't been working on Fathom for several years without a released product. People aren't questioning their finances because Damian hasn't bragged about burning through 750k a month. People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't repeatedly failed to pay their employees on time.
So yeah, doesn't seem like an Apples to Apples comparison, does it?
Also, parts-wise it makes sense for Haggis to be as independent as possible since...stay with me now...they're located in Australia! Quite far from the major pinball parts-manufacturers and suppliers. Haggis' business plan involves making games for years, so they'll make their money back on that equipment in the long run, versus paying through the nose to get stuff shipped to Australia and having to deal with excessively long lead-times.
It says everything you need to know about DipPoop that their dedicated thread is now dominated by posts about a newer, smaller company that is actually making and shipping games. And that people actually like and are rooting for.
Bravo RM.
Quoted from Bublehead:Doing your own tooling for parts no longer in production is not a harbinger of doom... give Haggis some credit.
Ohhhhh my Bubble, sounds just like Jpop had planned. It also doesn’t inspire confidence
I wish them well and anxiously awaiting how they will produce 50 games a month.
Show me. Then maybe DR can contract it out to them. Lol
Quoted from iceman44:Ohhhhh my Bubble, sounds just like Jpop had planned. It also doesn’t inspire confidence
I wish them well and anxiously awaiting how they will produce 50 games a month.
Show me. Then maybe DR can contract it out to them. Lol
Haggis building DR games seems less like fantasy than DR building their own games at this point.
Quoted from Mr68:Once they are up and running, Planetary Pinball will stock those missing production parts to be sold on their website. Not only will this be an additional revenue stream for Haggis but also a boon to the restoration hobbyist and the home brew community.
And a better chance for game specific parts to be available into the future. A real plus for owners of the game.
LTG : )
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Haggis building DR games seems less like fantasy than DR building their own games at this point.
True, people gotta prove they can build their own games first. Pinball is hard
Quoted from iceman44:Ohhhhh my Bubble, sounds just like Jpop had planned. It also doesn’t inspire confidence
I wish them well and anxiously awaiting how they will produce 50 games a month.
Show me. Then maybe DR can contract it out to them. Lol
How about one game….. ever.
I’ll sum up Ice’s position
Bear on Haggis = they don’t owe him a game.
Bull on deeproot = they owe him a game.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I’ll sum up Ice’s position
Bear on Haggis = they don’t owe him a game.
Bull on deeproot = they owe him a game.
I mean, I don't usually agree with him, but this makes sense. We can't all be Ice though and throw money around willy nilly. If anything, he's consistent, and I'm sure he has nothing against Haggis.
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