Honolulu, HI
If I didn't know better, I'd think this company is run by a blowhard dipshit who has no fucking idea what he's doing.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Toronto, ON
Quoted from jorro:[quoted image]
Yes it is! As a pre order buyer whom had contact with j-pop aka Zidware but chose to not to invest then, felt that this was going to be something different. I'am realizing now it's not.... and will concede to those in the thread, that I was wrong and will be going for the first come first serve refund.
Haggis has a much better Pinbar™ concept
Simple LCD screens to display information, pricing, etc. all in the eyeline of a player focused on the flippers.
No custom lockdown bar required, just modifying an apron.
Sure it’s not a touch screen accessible while playing…but it’s not the end of the world.
Pinball is a tactile experience and touchscreens lack important physical feedback. No one wants to second guess if they’re actually hitting their magna save button correctly when you need it the most.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Haggis has a much better Pinbar™ concept
Simple LCD screens to display information, pricing, etc. all in the eyeline of a player focused on the flippers.
No custom lockdown bar required, just modifying an apron.
It's not about what makes sense for the game it's about making it look good for the investors. Not only is an LCD "techy" it also involves DLC and subscription/service plans which (on paper) is investor catnip.
Recall the video of Robert explaining his system to the Deep Six as if they knew nothing about pinball. He's done this song and dance so much it's in his muscle memory.
Quoted from benheck:Recall the video of Robert explaining his system to the Deep Six as if they knew nothing about pinball. He's done this song and dance so much it's in his muscle memory.
That was right before "Does the pinpod fit through a doorway?" threw him off his game!
Quoted from RyanStl:Is UL certification even needed? I always thought it was optional, but would any of the buyer's have passed if they didn't even try for UL?
I believe I read it's optional and spooky doesn't do it.
Quoted from benheck:It's not about what makes sense for the game it's about making it look good for the investors. Not only is an LCD "techy" it also involves DLC and subscription/service plans which (on paper) is investor catnip.
Recall the video of Robert explaining his system to the Deep Six as if they knew nothing about pinball. He's done this song and dance so much it's in his muscle memory.
Imagine turning pinbar into an interactive gambling terminal of sorts. Bingos all over again. “Pinball returning to its roots” TM
Quoted from RyanStl:Is UL certification even needed? I always thought it was optional, but would any of the buyer's have passed if they didn't even try for UL?
Absolutely 100% optional. Also known as a DR smokescreen.
Quoted from TaTa:Yes it is! As a pre order buyer whom had contact with j-pop aka Zidware but chose to not to invest then, felt that this was going to be something different. I'am realizing now it's not.... and will concede to those in the thread, that I was wrong and will be going for the first come first serve refund.
It sucks and I hope you get your money back. I’m still burnt by Deeproot and John. This means the likelihood of pending cases being resolved is low. Everyone loses.
Quoted from pookycade:Absolutely 100% optional. Also known as a DR smokescreen.
Yes, thought so, what about the Europe one? I believe I read that one was mandatory in one of the DR letters. Is that a farse?
Quoted from JodyG:I'll give them $200 for the completely unnecessary Belovac vacuum press in their R&D shop. I'd go more, but it is not the plug assist model.
Good call. I need a new office chair and I bet they have the best. When is the auction!
Quoted from TaTa:Yes it is! As a pre order buyer whom had contact with j-pop aka Zidware but chose to not to invest then, felt that this was going to be something different. I'am realizing now it's not.... and will concede to those in the thread, that I was wrong and will be going for the first come first serve refund.
Its not that you are or were wrong, but you have made yourself right. This is a multi year saga that is finishing up its latest, but not last chapter. Rest assured, if RAZA gets made, you will be able to buy on the second hand market.
Quoted from benheck:What is the deposit amount people have in with this thing?
It was 10% or 20% I have the extra I think it was 2k. I don't remember off hand its been so long now
Quoted from okgrak:No other company is going to acquire DR just to get that patent for the glass lift system and add hundreds of dollars to their BOM to produce new games. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.
I'm a bit behind so not sure if anyone has mentioned, but this patent was never granted. Afaict they didn't pursue prosecution after the initial rejection.
Now it's likely they filled for the pinbar too, but that one hasn't been published (they possibly could've paid to hide it).
Quoted from RyanStl:Yes, thought so, what about the Europe one? I believe I read that one was mandatory in one of the DR letters. Is that a farse?
CE is mandatory for all electronic devices imported into the EU.
As far as I know (not much, I can be wrong..) it's not something you have to get validated or tested - it's a standard to which you build your machine (ie using lead free solder) and if it does you 'certify' yourself as manufacturer that you made it according to the standard.
Spooky also doesn't have it. It was something I considered when ordering a Spooky pin, therefor I went through a reseller and not direct and import it myself..
Without CE label you have the risk that customs doesn't let it pass, or insurance makes your life difficult when something in your house catches fire.
Ask yourselves this ,”If this was a scam wouldn’t it have been easier to run DR from a garage like setting “? I’m just going by a gut feeling but I do not think the overhead matches the money collected am I not correct ?DR has a lot on the line and the biggest disappointment is people not rooting for another company to put out a new style of pinball . We’ve got #1 Stern putting out 3-5 pins a year ,fast pins and you know what your getting the Kings of pinball for sure.#2 JJP breaking the mold first with WOZ all the way to GnR ,shall I say the “boutique” pins that need time to release 1 a year and for good reason. #3 Spooky who is putting theyre heart in soul in pins that have taken a leap with every release .#4 AP that in my opinion only needs to grab some top shelf titles to pry theyre way in the big leagues .#5 can be DR with the vision of bringing 90s pins (original themes) and mixing it with never before seen inovation .So please tell me why you would try to slam a company that is giving us another option in this great,great hobby ?
Quoted from Kkoss24:So please tell me why you would try to slam a company that is giving us another option in this great,great hobby ?
Do you seriously not know the history of Jpop in the last decade of this hobby? Couple that with Robert’s ego & insulting everyone in the biz - why do we owe them anything?
Quoted from Rarehero:Do you seriously not know the history of Jpop in the last decade of this hobby? Couple that with Robert’s ego & insulting everyone in the biz - why do we owe them anything?
Yes I’ve read up on it and it reminds me of me .I was going nowhere young and when the light clicked on I was motivated .Motivated to the point where I wouldn’t accept failure .No I’ve never even thought of scamming people but this dude (JPOP) has designed some all time greats and some that could have been .Look I feel bad for those that were burned and I do not know much about Robert but what I do know is there’s a lot put into this company .If they just get this RAZA out and push forward we will have a new style of pinball to chose from .That would spread sales out and force everyone to up theyre game .Am i nuts or does this babe sense ?
Quoted from Kkoss24:Ask yourselves this ,”If this was a scam wouldn’t it have been easier to run DR from a garage like setting “? I’m just going by a gut feeling but I do not think the overhead matches the money collected am I not correct ?DR has a lot on the line and the biggest disappointment is people not rooting for another company to put out a new style of pinball . We’ve got #1 Stern putting out 3-5 pins a year ,fast pins and you know what your getting the Kings of pinball for sure.#2 JJP breaking the mold first with WOZ all the way to GnR ,shall I say the “boutique” pins that need time to release 1 a year and for good reason. #3 Spooky who is putting theyre heart in soul in pins that have taken a leap with every release .#4 AP that in my opinion only needs to grab some top shelf titles to pry theyre way in the big leagues .#5 can be DR with the vision of bringing 90s pins (original themes) and mixing it with never before seen inovation .So please tell me why you would try to slam a company that is giving us another option in this great,great hobby ?
Building / selling a electronics product in Europe/UK (UK not CE any more now UKCA is actually illegal) if that device is deemed illegal or hurts / kills someone without being certified you can get into a lot of trouble.
But with China importing billions of uncertified products on eBay/Amazon lots of stuff slips the net and it can’t really be enforced.
All the big boys certainly are CE/FCC/UKCA though.
For electronics it’s usually the emissions tests which needs external testing (quite costly as well) most of the other stuff can be self certified.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Yes I’ve read up on it and it reminds me of me .I was going nowhere young and when the light clicked on I was motivated .Motivated to the point where I wouldn’t accept failure .No I’ve never even thought of scamming people but this dude (JPOP) has designed some all time greats and some that could have been .Look I feel bad for those that were burned and I do not know much about Robert but what I do know is there’s a lot put into this company .If they just get this RAZA out and push forward we will have a new style of pinball to chose from .That would spread sales out and force everyone to up theyre game .Am i nuts or does this babe sense ?
Welcome to the thread and cheers to your enthusiasm.
Once Deeproot goes under jpop will no doubt be in the market for a new patron. If Robert reminds you of yourself perhaps you'll remind jpop of Robert? [email protected]
Quoted from Kkoss24:Yes I’ve read up on it and it reminds me of me .I was going nowhere young and when the light clicked on I was motivated .Motivated to the point where I wouldn’t accept failure .No I’ve never even thought of scamming people but this dude (JPOP) has designed some all time greats and some that could have been .Look I feel bad for those that were burned and I do not know much about Robert but what I do know is there’s a lot put into this company .If they just get this RAZA out and push forward we will have a new style of pinball to chose from .That would spread sales out and force everyone to up theyre game .Am i nuts or does this babe sense ?
We have a lot of manufacturers and choices now. We really do not need more of the deceptive narcissist types like John or Robert in this hobby. We’ve had Heighway, Vonnie D, Kevin K, and the maestro John P who never really finished a game. John was always helped by several others and doesn’t deserve a lot of credit.
When a company acts like asses, hires a crook, and doubles down, why should community support them?
Right now, we have a lot of great companies to support
We have options
Stern
JJP
Spooky
AP
Haggis
Pinball Brothers
P3
CGC
Questionable
Dutch
Thunderbirds
Mafia.
Do we really need Deeproot?
I don’t think so. I’d feel different if the hubris wasn’t so ridiculous from them. When they fold a lot of us lose. The positive is I hope others learn, and John never works in pinball again.
Also, we will all be able to disclose the details of our lawsuit and how ridiculous John and Robert have been. A lawsuit we won and still have not received any $.
Vantaa
The problem for Deeproot at this point (and really for a long while) is trust. I have read all 18583 posts in this thread and my only conclusion at this point is I personally don't trust them enough to risk a deposit for a game (regardless of the title, how it plays, quality of built, etc.). I am not sure I would get the game, what the support would be, the quality of service and even if my game will keep working without buying "support".
Conversely, I have met Damien @ Haggis and his attitude, business model, etc. make me feel like he can be trusted. Heck, even if I lost my deposit with him I don't think I would feel like I was scammed, but rather a true effort to succeed occurred. Same with Spooky and American Pinball and the larger manufacturers have already demonstrated the ability to get the job done. Regardless of the product, I just don't feel like I can trust Deeproot to, well, run Deeproot.
Can they turn that around? Sure, I think there is a way forward, look at Dutch Pinball and maybe (hopefully) Pinball Brothers as possible examples. Many examples of what to do have been shown on this thread but here is what it would take for me to start trusting this company and actually buy something they produce:
1. New President (yes, seriously). Robert should step down and a new, trustworthy president should step in - doesn't have to be someone from Pinball or an angel investor, just someone who can demonstrate passion and the ability to accomplish the goal (it would crack me up if they did a Joe Isuzu video with Robert as Joe and the new guy as the responsible company, that would be awesome and get my attention);
2. Fire JPop or at least sever relationship;
3. Transparency (if you got them, such as a manufacturing line, show them): and
4. Humility - admit (really admit) mistakes, stop lying or at least explain exactly what the problem is such as why you can't get UL listed when everybody can.
Without these things, I am not in on a Deeproot pinball. Alternately, they can make 2,000 pins over the next 2-3 years demonstrating viability as pinball company, earning their right to their attitude. But it will be hard to sell that many if guys like me aren't in till the 2,001 pin.
At this point can we finally shun JPop forever?
He has no business being involved in anything pinball related. He is a terrible hack, and I know 30 people not working in the industry that can design and build a better game than him.
Per Carl’s video, doesn’t sound like JPop is the problem rn, its Robert Mueller.
I’d take the money and run, if you can get it
Quoted from ViperVS:There was/is a lawsuit against Deeproot?
There is a legal judgment against Jpop that remains unsettled.
Quoted from hank527:Do we really need Deeproot?
I don’t think so. I’d feel different if the hubris wasn’t so ridiculous from them. When they fold a lot of us lose. The positive is I hope others learn, and John never works in pinball again.
Also, we will all be able to disclose the details of our lawsuit and how ridiculous John and Robert have been. A lawsuit we won and still have not received any $.
Not only does the hobby not need them it will be better off WITHOUT them. Wait for the story floodgates to open...
They'd need to have Bowden come out, tell people exactly what is actually going on at deeproot, and why. Then act right for another 2 game releases and they'd probably be ready for actual public support by the third.
Quoted from Chalkey:They'd need to have Bowden come out, tell people exactly what is actually going on at deeproot, and why. Then act right for another 2 game releases and they'd probably be ready for actual public support by the third.
Bowden doing a press conference wouldn’t change anything...the problem is they are not a manufacturing company & never prepped properly to be one. They wasted money on the wrong things - like Bowden. He’s a nice guy, yeah yeah - but you don’t pay a guy for years who doesn’t program to sit there & write tomes of rules for games that cannot exist if a manufacturing facility is not in place.
Quoted from Chalkey:They'd need to have Bowden come out, tell people exactly what is actually going on at deeproot, and why.
I don't think that's necessary or fair. Bowden seems like a decent man and I don't think he should be put in that position.
I did enjoy this last update of how Robert hid behind Bowden and Bowden's good reputation. Its a subliminal reference but read it again and you will see what I mean.
Happy Birthday Bowden
Quoted from Rarehero:Bowden doing a press conference wouldn’t change anything...the problem is they are not a manufacturing company & never prepped properly to be one. They wasted money on the wrong things - like Bowden. He’s a nice guy, yeah yeah - but you don’t pay a guy for years who doesn’t program to sit there & write tomes of rules for games that cannot exist if a manufacturing facility is not in place.
They hired all stars and assumed that this is all that is needed to achieve success. Didn’t quite seem to realize or acknowledge that the nameless many who build these visions are the bulk of the actual work a pin company does. Apple had the vision guy, and right behind him the engineers who did the bulk of design, and right behind them the manufacturing guy who made sure it was outsourced to enough competent players to get the job done at the lowest cost.
To me the most interesting part of this story yet to play out is that there seems not to be a single leak internally from those who remain. For a company seemingly imploding that in itself is an achievement. Surely they must know what’s going down. I will also be interested to learn how many Cassandras there were internally who just never got heard. Failure is always a slow burn of missed opportunities.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:Per Carl’s video, doesn’t sound like JPop is the problem rn, its Robert Mueller.
I’d take the money and run, if you can get it
I'm not shocked at all. Hes always been the problem. Jpop just compounded it.
Everything Cary said is exactly what I've suspected the whole time and has been called out in this thread many times. Pinbar is a disaster. Employees not getting paid. Hiring Jpop to begin with. No engineers. All of this loops back to Robert and what a shit heel he is.
Quoted from pookycade:To me the most interesting part of this story yet to play out is that there seems not to be a single leak internally from those who remain. For a company seemingly imploding that in itself is an achievement.
The threats of legal action has been prevalent snice day one and far reaching. Remember the deer in the headlights, Deep Six reporters after they returned?
Quoted from pookycade:To me the most interesting part of this story yet to play out is that there seems not to be a single leak internally from those who remain. For a company seemingly imploding that in itself is an achievement. Surely they must know what’s going down. I will also be interested to learn how many Cassandras there were internally who just never got heard. Failure is always a slow burn of missed opportunities.
To me this is the least surprising. RM is a lawyer first and foremost, and I'm sure he's got all of his employees locked down with NDA and other legal control mechanisms. I wouldn't be surprised if he is going after Cary Hardy right now for that video in attempt to have him take it down.
I'm waiting on the libel lawsuits against Pinsiders... I mean if it wasn't for us kicking the shit out of everything that RM has done wrong so far, maybe they would have been able to deliver on RAZA? Oh wait, my Cease and Desist letter just arrived from their legal department... got to run.
Quoted from Bublehead:I'm waiting on the libel lawsuits against Pinsiders... I mean if it wasn't for us kicking the shit out of everything that RM has done wrong so far, maybe they would have been able to deliver on RAZA? Oh wait, my Cease and Desist letter just arrived from their legal department... got to run.
Scan and post it!
Quoted from pookycade:To me the most interesting part of this story yet to play out is that there seems not to be a single leak internally from those who remain. For a company seemingly imploding that in itself is an achievement. Surely they must know what’s going down.
I would guess there are very few bodies left in that building.
Quoted from NoQuarters:I would guess there are very few bodies left in that building.
Yeah, no warm bodies but Barry Oursler's mummified skeleton is sitting in a corner still waiting on a mechanical engineer, oh and a paycheck.
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