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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#18401 2 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,930 3 14

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

We are dealing with the same issues most other small and large businesses are

What other business type is there other than small and large, MEDIUM?

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

struggling with some vendors over supply chain and deliveries

IE we are only ordering enough parts to build 100 machines so most vendors are focused on building parts at production volumes pushing our production date further behind.

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

unable to hire staff because of labor shortages

Nobody is responding to our job ads because a quick google search fills them in that we are a money bleeding company with a CEO that has been struggling to ship their first game.

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

We come in every day and are chipping away at the diminishing obstacles to shipping our first RAZAs

The game has been done for a year, what obstacles? If it's part shortages, the only chipping has to be finding prototype shops to build your parts which will increase the price of any custom parts by 2-3 times the cost. Perhaps they are figuring out how to make custom parts cheaper like taking a standard lockbar and milling a rectangular hole, which means the screen is going to get narrower (sourcing yet another custom display).

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#18402 2 years ago
 
ROB

RobT

Pinside member

13y 129K 21,266 3 40

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

if some RAZA customers wish to rescind their contracts and request their payments back, we will offer those on a first-come, first serve basis starting June 1, 2021.

Not sure what to make of this? Seems like they are saying that if you want a refund, you need to ask for it sooner rather than later.

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#18403 2 years ago
 
DWF

Chalkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Chesterfield, VA

6y 69,550 2,971 18

First come first serve basis is kind of an odd way to offer refunds. Like saying they'll only do a few of them or something.

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#18404 2 years ago
 
???

frobozz

Pinside member

US Chicago, IL

8y 46,650 505 9

Quoted from Chalkey:

First come first serve basis is kind of an odd way to offer refunds. Like saying they'll only do a few of them or something.

"Until the money runs out" is the obvious interpretation.

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#18405 2 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Roostking:I heard they need to get the 4 week delay announced first, then they can get the six week delay announcement scheduled

Well, I called it. Wish I would have been wrong. Off to the buyer's thread, so how the mood is over there

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#18406 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from RobT:

Not sure what to make of this? Seems like they are saying that if you want a refund, you need to ask for it sooner rather than later.

And what's first come first serve? Are there a limit on the number of servings like at a food truck?

Also, where's our ul certification status update?? A soap opera this good can't just drop its #1 storyline

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#18407 2 years ago
 
NTR

TheFamilyArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US New City, NY

11y 104K 9,957 5 37

Labor shortage. Lol.

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#18408 2 years ago
 
???

m00nmuppet

Pinside member

6y 82,400 817 106

So, while he's trying to order parts and complaining about the difficulty with low volume orders, he's trying to reduce the number of machines he'll need parts for? This is so bizarre....

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#18409 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,645

I think this will be their third opportunity and last chance at getting their money back. Second chances are rare enough and it seems like a no brainer to me.

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#18410 2 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Update from pre-order thread.

If dr goes under, its our fault!

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#18411 2 years ago
 
DUG

dugmar

Pinside member

US Newburyport, MA

9y 35,550 241 2

I would feel bad for the guy if not for the abundant display of hubris when he was just starting.

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#18412 2 years ago
 
GWL

gliebig

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 119K 5,424

Wait list?

FELLAS.gifFELLAS.gif
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#18413 2 years ago
 
NJM

NeilMcRae

Pinside+ Pro!

GB London

12y 147K 4,484 70 20

Quoted from RobT:

Not sure what to make of this? Seems like they are saying that if you want a refund, you need to ask for it sooner rather than later.

I wondered about that also, seems very strange way of putting it.

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#18414 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

The only interesting thing is the first come first serve on the refunds. That just makes no sense to say? Because either it's an innocuous comment that refunds will be addressed in the order they are received, or it implies that refunds will be limited based on how many are requested.

> However, it seems sometimes that these periodic updates don't convey the progress that is happening

That's on you Bobby.... A picture is worth a thousand words

Also where's that poster that applied for a job at deeproot and never heard back? Pretty sure he could help with some of those labor issues...

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#18415 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

Quoted from dugmar:

I would feel bad for the guy if not for the abundant display of hubris when he was just starting.

Hubris he has displayed literally the entire time...

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#18416 2 years ago
 
ROB

RobT

Pinside member

13y 129K 21,266 3 40

Quoted from frobozz:

"Until the money runs out" is the obvious interpretation.

That's how I took it.

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#18417 2 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

Update could have been shortened to about 3 sentences.

‘Hi, there’s really no changes to report. we are still working on RAZA even though it was ready to go back in December for January shipping. Oh, you probably better jump on a refund in June if you ever want your money back’

Vague wording about ‘obstacles’ still being worked on, smoke blowing, hand waving about supply and other issues, the refund waiting list. Oh- and they won’t sign up new orders for the refunded machines until the run is complete— these are not good things.

I don’t fault pre orders for hanging on, but I’d be backing out come June 1st

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#18418 2 years ago
 
LRP

lpeters82

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 132K 5,285 8

Very strange...basically, "Our updates will never do enough to express how much progress we're making, therefore we're going to start doing fewer updates." I also don't really understand the need for the "first-come, first-serve" refunds. If there is a huge waiting list there should be no need to put limitations on refunds. That wording would make be worried if I were a customer. It seems as though the seemingly bottomless cash flow may be drying up.

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#18419 2 years ago
 
YBX

yancy

Pinside member

US West Dundee, IL

11y 122K 7,201 25

Anyone dumb enough to not immediately request a refund upon reading that email needs a conservator in charge of their estate.

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#18420 2 years ago
 
???

frobozz

Pinside member

US Chicago, IL

8y 46,650 505 9

Quoted from yancy:

Anyone dumb enough to not immediately request a refund upon reading that email needs a conservator in charge of their estate.

And then, as someone predicted earlier, Robert will use that "run on the bank" as an excuse to just throw in the towel.

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#18421 2 years ago
 
NTR

TheFamilyArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US New City, NY

11y 104K 9,957 5 37

JUNE!

They took order money last year! For February delivery.

JUNE!!!

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#18422 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

With all of these production challenges experienced by businesses large and small, perhaps Robert should relocate the DR factory to Australia since a company has recently managed to build and ship pinball machines from there.

Or Chicago.

Or Wisconsin.

Or Italy.

Or Holland.

Or Taiwan.

Or Austin.

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#18423 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

With all of these production challenges experienced by businesses large and small, perhaps Robert should relocate the DR factory to Australia since a company has recently managed to build and ship pinball machines from there.
Or Chicago.
Or Wisconsin.
Or Italy.
Or Holland.
Or Taiwan.
Or Austin.

Don't forget Canada! Even Pinball Adventures can be arsed to post a picture of parts and of his small workshop.

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#18424 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

If deeproot does go down, I just want to see all the white woods and experimental mechs people were working on. It'd be a shame if they just get tossed out in a dumpster.

I would think they would attempt to sell them to other manufacturers, but I can't see many companies valuing this stuff vs investing in their own product development (and how most of it is probably half baked and wouldn't come with the designers who were working on it). Hopefully guys like Steve can be picked up by a more legitimate company.

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#18425 2 years ago
 
DSS

Haymaker

Pinside member

US Rockford, IL

9y 125K 6,511 15 16

Wahhhh all these shortages of workers and parts are hurting everyone, except all the other pinball companies... lmfao

I have no doubt theres challenges right now, but when literally every other pin company big or small is still able to pump out games, thats a big ol red flag

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#18426 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from TreyBo69:

If deeproot does go down, I just want to see all the white woods and experimental mechs people were working on. It'd be a shame if they just get tossed out in a dumpster.
I would think they would attempt to sell them to other manufacturers, but I can't see many companies valuing this stuff vs investing in their own product development (and how most of it is probably half baked and wouldn't come with the designers who were working on it). Hopefully guys like Steve can be picked up by a more legitimate company.

Score $5 per innovation and they can buy a pinpod!

As if this company has anything behind the scenes a legitimate outfit would deem worth buying. Nordman bounced due to not getting a mechanical engineer. As far as I know, they only ever secured a single patent.

If pride would allow it, I'm sure they could auction off dozens of foamcores and half baked, half built experiments for collectors and get some bucks.

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#18427 2 years ago
 
DSM

okgrak

Pinside member

5y 66,300 636

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Score $5 per innovation and they can buy a pinpod!
As if this company has anything behind the scenes a legitimate outfit would deem worth buying. Nordman bounced due to not getting a mechanical engineer. As far as I know, they only ever secured a single patent.
If pride would allow it, I'm sure they could auction off dozens of foamcores and half baked, half built experiments for collectors and get some bucks.

No other company is going to acquire DR just to get that patent for the glass lift system and add hundreds of dollars to their BOM to produce new games. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.

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#18428 2 years ago
 
SK

SunKing

Pinside member

US Houston, TX

13y 130K 3,983 5 21

I think skipping any mention of the UL certification is the biggest red flag. If he'd completed that, you know he would have announced it in this update. And if it's not certified, how can you be 100% certain what parts you may need to order...

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#18429 2 years ago
 
HAT

Pinballer67

Pinside member

6y 73,300 499

Get your money back, people! Don't be stoooooopid....

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#18430 2 years ago
 
DLA

ufotofu

Pinside member

6y 30,650 95

With all this encouraging news about RAZA, I wonder what kind of progress they're making on the 13 machines that they had 50% complete in 2019.

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#18431 2 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,573 11

Quoted from Roostking:

Update from pre-order thread.
If dr goes under, its our fault!

I guess I know where to get volunteers for my next grift!

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#18432 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

"In the mean time, if some RAZA customers wish to rescind their contracts and request their payments back, we will offer those on a first-come, first serve basis starting June 1, 2021. You can reply to this email or use our online contact form on our website. Please include your name, order number, and a request to rescind the RAZA Purchase Contract. Once accepted, your request is irrevocable."

As I predicted this is the "out". Robert is hoping for a run on the bank as an excuse not to make the game.

"Irrevocable" - this is so when he announces "we had too many refunds to make this worthwhile" people can't say "oh! can I get back in to make it happen?"

"For those waiting on the wait list, please again do not contact us to check on if you have a machine or not."

Because they aren't going to be making any games.

"We will do our best to fill as many requests as we can from the rescinded machines, in order on the wait list, at the end of the RAZA run. Since the list has grown from the last mass email, we cannot guarantee to be able to accommodate everyone."

Oh a waiting list huh? On a game that only sold 100 units with a cap of 300? BULL-SHIT.

Goodbye Deeproot. And good riddance.

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#18433 2 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,573 11

Quoted from Haymaker:

Wahhhh all these shortages of workers and parts are hurting everyone, except all the other pinball companies... lmfao
I have no doubt theres challenges right now, but when literally every other pin company big or small is still able to pump out games, thats a big ol red flag

I feel like all these things were...uh...not an issue if the machines were ready to ship back in January. So, he lied up front. There is nothing more to take from that email. He didn't have parts, employees, or even any machines ready to be built the month they were even supposed to ship. How was the U/L cert holding up any of that? Meanwhile lots of other pinball companies (and new pinball companies) have made new machines and shipped in that time.

I feel bad for the people waiting on games, but if they aren't asking for a refund now, it's on them.

I already know how part of this is going to go. The die hards are going to hang on assuming there will be even less of them in the world therefore more rare and worth *cough* more.

But hey! He held his word about a mid May update, that...really says nothing.

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#18434 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from TreyBo69:

The only interesting thing is the first come first serve on the refunds. That just makes no sense to say? Because either it's an innocuous comment that refunds will be addressed in the order they are received, or it implies that refunds will be limited based on how many are requested.

Occam's Razor says "it's because they're out of money"

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#18435 2 years ago
 
CHK

thechakapakuni

Inactive member

4y 61,300 2,093 30

RM still promising he’s going to deliver a single pinball machine to a paying customer.

Me:

0FFFA508-4C86-4715-83DD-539689E6685E.gif0FFFA508-4C86-4715-83DD-539689E6685E.gif
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#18436 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

Quoted from benheck:

"We will do our best to fill as many requests as we can from the rescinded machines, in order on the wait list, at the end of the RAZA run. Since the list has grown from the last mass email, we cannot guarantee to be able to accommodate everyone."
Oh a waiting list huh? On a game that only sold 100 units with a cap of 300? BULL-SHIT.
Goodbye Deeproot. And good riddance.

And this is after they decided to get rid of the couple extra dozens units that they'd sell after the preorders were built.

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#18437 2 years ago
 
DMB

PismoArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US St. George, UT

12y 143K 4,100 3 134

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Best!
-Robert J. Mueller, Principal
deeproot Pinball

After 5 paragraphs of bad/non news, this was my favorite part of the update.

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#18438 2 years ago
 
DLA

ufotofu

Pinside member

6y 30,650 95

It's also pretty ridiculous that they're soliciting refund requests through the "Contact Us" form on their website, as if the entire Preorder thread isn't full of people sharing their order numbers... you would think they'd expect, at minimum, a verified email address.

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#18439 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

Quoted from benheck:

Occam's Razor says "it's because they're out of money"

I mean that writing was on the wall when they asked for the deposits to begin with. Not even enough faith in their own product to make a few dozen sample units of a game they thought they'd sell thousands of at one point. Put millions into starting the studio and needed a preorder campaign to raise a couple hundred grand more. dafuq?

They said they'd put the money in a separate bank account. Course they have said a lot of things. No talk about that nominal interest this time around though...

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#18440 2 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

This fiasco had three big red flags-

JPop
PinBar(tm)
Preorder money collected

At which off ramp did everyone else exit?
I decided to not even take the trip. When I saw Jpop heading for a DR seminar, my first thought was "Holy f-ing Christ, I hope he's wearing a kevlar vest or steel jock strap", he looked like a kid who had been caught masturbating in the girls locker room. Guilty as sin was written all over his face. That affront to my best pinball graces made me think twice about DR, but then there were other designers signing on, so I softened my criticism at first. Seems my mistrust was well placed after all.

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#18441 2 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,573 11

Quoted from TreyBo69:

I mean that writing was on the wall when they asked for the deposits to begin with. Not even enough faith in their own product to make a few dozen sample units of a game they thought they'd sell thousands of at one point. Put millions into starting the studio and needed a preorder campaign to raise a couple hundred grand more. dafuq?
They said they'd put the money in a separate bank account. Course they have said a lot of things. No talk about that nominal interest this time around though...

Well you know if they put all that pre order money in BTC for the last year and a half...they be rich now.

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#18442 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from TreyBo69:

And this is after they decided to get rid of the couple extra dozens units that they'd sell after the preorders were built.

That's when I realized what their exit plan was. As long as the game was "decent" they'd easily sell 160 even if half the OG buyers dropped out.

But THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT. It's far cheaper to just give up. Hence the "floating" sales goal which is already too low to even bother. Just a few refunds and they've got their excuse.

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#18443 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,434

Quoted from benheck:

That's when I realized what their exit plan was. As long as the game was "decent" they'd easily sell 160 even if half the OG buyers dropped out.
But THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT. It's far cheaper to just give up. Hence the "floating" sales goal which is already too low to even bother. Just a few refunds and they've got their excuse.

Yeah after that update it just made me think of the Predator fiasco and people blaming others on the run as if that was what was holding back that project/game.

Because it's some combination of them not wanting to build them and them realizing just how much these prototypes realistically cost to mass manufacture. Even with the inflated prices they'd sell the extra games at, I wouldn't be surprised that they'd still be selling at a loss.

Anyone who tells you the price of a product before they figure out how to build it is pulling numbers from thin air. It's happened in this hobby sooo many times.

Some people like to speculate about a truly limited game run. Like 25 units at $25k or whatever numbers they arbitrarily choose. No...a small run like that, the game would start at least $50k and would probably still be a terrible ROI for the company. It's a volume business!

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#18444 2 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,527

Food Truck will see the light of day.

You’ll see. You’ll all see.

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#18445 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Food Truck will see the light of day.
You’ll see. You’ll all see.

F food truck! Team Title TBD 4 Life!

01-BlackHoleRemake (1) (resized).png01-BlackHoleRemake (1) (resized).png

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#18446 2 years ago
 
SS

Shapeshifter

Pinside member

13y 150K 10,466 8 144

'However, it seems sometimes that these periodic updates don't convey the progress that is happening, nor does it solve the real goal of delivering games.'

'In the mean time, if some RAZA customers wish to rescind their contracts and request their payments back, we will offer those on a first-come, first serve basis starting June 1, 2021.'

If there is progress that is happening, what company offers pre-order customers a refund in 2 weeks time?

Kind of an oxymoron right there?

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#18447 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Yeah after that update it just made me think of the Predator fiasco and people blaming others on the run as if that was what was holding back that project/game.

Kevin would have shit out a few games before running out of money. Certain Predaturd buyers didn't care if 100+ people lost money as long as THEY got their super rare game! That was a huge steaming pile of shit. Seriously. That game sucked.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Anyone who tells you the price of a product before they figure out how to build it is pulling numbers from thin air. It's happened in this hobby sooo many times.

That's what messed up Jersey Jack. The other problem (like a lot of crowdfunding) is they collect what is needed for production but not DEVELOPMENT which is always where the money disappears.

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#18448 2 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,573 11

He didn't even mention any progress. He gave excuses about things that...well one would have assumed had been taken care of months ago. I mean..no employees? He never mentioned that in previous updates.

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#18449 2 years ago
 
SMD

stevevt

The Pinball Co-op

US South Burlington, VT

11y 137K 2,690 1

Quoted from benheck:

That's when I realized what their exit plan was. As long as the game was "decent" they'd easily sell 160 even if half the OG buyers dropped out.
But THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT. It's far cheaper to just give up. Hence the "floating" sales goal which is already too low to even bother. Just a few refunds and they've got their excuse.

Occam's RAZA?

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#18450 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from Zablon:

He didn't even mention any progress. He gave excuses about things that...well one would have assumed had been taken care of months ago. I mean..no employees? He never mentioned that in previous updates.

He damn well better have employees after taking $$$ from the government in covid relief funds to retain employees

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