Quoted from Yelobird:Word salad Or what was actually written. Your call....
How many are in on this game because of you convincing them they have nothing to worry about? That’s a lot of weight to continue to carry around.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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What’s most amusing is that just like 10 years ago, a big part of this seems to be the “I’m going to have something rare and therefore valuable!”. Which isn’t anything the “hobby” should feel inclined to support under any circumstances, let alone this clusterfuck.
Quoted from BladesOfSteel:Not to feed the flames and give vindication to some of the hyperbole spewed so far by some - as a Xtra pre-order paid in full (I'm dumb), I'm %100 going to take the refund option next week unless shipping is immanent. I'll buy a TMNT and something else and enjoy the game of pinball I grew up with without the risk.
I think you are making a smart move. A pinball company's first game is typically not something that will stand the test of time or be super valuable. For the money you can get a game that you know is going to work, have spare parts, and is fun to play.
Going back and reading some of the early DR interviews is almost cringe-worthy from how the whole thing has gone down.
Quoted from russdx:Going back and reading some of the early DR interviews is almost cringe-worthy from how the whole thing has gone down.
Quoted from russdx:...almost cringe-worthy...
You appear to have a high cringe threshold.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Agree with Wolfmarsh fully. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If BladesOfSteel can get a refund I think that's a much safer choice.
@ BladesOfSteel you would enjoy TMNT. Fun game.
Haha that's the same phrase that got Robert's knickers in a knot nearly two years ago. When he offered the "cash out" on RAZA for Zidware buyers.
Quoted from benheck:Haha that's the same phrase that got Robert's knickers in a knot nearly two years ago.
With that guy, it's more like a Turd (in the hand...).
Quoted from benheck:Yeah nobody discusses whether THE GAME ITSELF will be any good.
Oh it’s been discussed. Over on the other thread- ‘it’s going to be amazing!” ‘Can’t wait, it looks really fun’ ‘innovative mechs’.
Paraphrasing.. but I think that’s pretty accurate. Art really suckers people in
Quoted from Mbecker:Art really suckers people in
Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
Quoted from frolic:Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
These days that is exactly right. Otherwise, there would be no pre-orders for home use. I suppose over many years you can kind of tell what will be fun and won't be fun, but honestly no one really knows until they actually play it.
Quoted from frolic:Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
Art must work it's allowed John to hoodwink people how many times now?
I know for a fact that's ALL Robert cared about. It's why he has insane sales expectations for John's games without even playing them.
Quoted from frolic:Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
I don't think art precludes theme or theme precludes license... what makes a game fun is the "play" you get for a buck. A game can have a great license, artwork, and theme, but if it plays like crap, what fun is that?
Quoted from Bublehead:I don't think art precludes theme or theme precludes license... what makes a game fun is the "play" you get for a buck. A game can have a great license, artwork, and theme, but if it plays like crap, what fun is that?
Tell the constantly sold out pre-orders that. We can say all we want about play, but 1000's of machines sell sight unseen every other month it seems. Look at Mando? Oh wait, we can't.
Quoted from Zablon:Tell the constantly sold out pre-orders that. We can say all we want about play, but 1000's of machines sell sight unseen every other month it seems. Look at Mando? Oh wait, we can't.
"No! Diddley zap pow whiz! People want original themes like back in the 90s! Whee! ZAP! What's that? Circus Voltaire didn't sell a fraction of STTNG or TZ? My own biggest seller was based on a sport license? ER... Purple Puzzycat Bowling! Zip zap doopie whoop it's a PINBAR! "
Quoted from Zablon:1000's of machines sell sight unseen
But not by me. 
A couple things. If/when Deeproot offers a refund, it will be a positive move that tries to rectify the mistakes made up until now. It shows that they intend to make good on delivering games into the future - otherwise, why spend money on a public relations move if the company doesn't have long term objectives.
With the above in mind, there are some inexcusable business decisions since money was taken in December that just scream incompetence. Not having an understanding of the UL/CE certification process and critical components not being sourced. Really?
Those unknowns have such long lead times and are so material to the end product that it is disingenuous at best and near fraudulent at worst to give the impression that machines are close to leaving the manufacturing line.
I like the idea of Deeproot, and I'm still pulling for the company to succeed - just not subsidized on my dime.
Quoted from benheck:Just a daily reminder, Spooky was started with around 50k total investment and the "break even don't go out of business" floor for AMH was 100 units.
Robert spent $20m+ and sold 130.
Didn’t Robert try to buy Spooky Pinball before he started DeepRooters?
I think that was the case ...
rd
Quoted from BladesOfSteel:If/when Deeproot offers a refund, it will be a positive move that tries to rectify the mistakes made up until now. It shows that they intend to make good on delivering games into the future - otherwise, why spend money on a public relations move if the company doesn't have long term objectives.
To keep from being sued.
Reality check time. At my arcade the thought came up that we should move our Star Wars pin because it had run its course with our pinball league. Umm nope, that game is going nowhere. Why ? For the non pinside crowd they gravitate to anything that says Star Wars on it. It’s the most played pin. And the pinball league gets to even exist because of all the non pin playing customers.
And here’s the further reality - most people coming in to my arcade spend little, to no time at all with the pins. Heck even the iconic video games don’t get nearly as much play as the Chex hockey, air hockey, boxing, skee ball.
Business wise it makes no sense for us to have 35 pins on the floor but we do anyway because it’s my place and I do what I want. For any non pin aficionado theme/license matter most. To most customers all pinballs are exactly the same and nobody understands why you would have 35 of them. And nobody, and I mean nobody, gives a crap about art. And believe me I notice all of those things, but I don’t confuse myself with my average customer.
The idea that an unlicensed theme is going to have any appeal outside our own niche crowd, and that they are gonna care about who did the code and whether Zombie Yeti pulled off some masterpiece is ludicrous. Nobody notices beyond us.
Now let’s take it back to DR. Flawed business model, flawed focus on art and homage to a washed up designer (Circus Voltaire was a failure not a success), flawed use of non licensed themes as the way to build more pins than Stern, flawed understanding of any of the costs involved of running a manufacturing business, flawed engagement with their core niche audience, flawed capital expenditure to projected revenue, flawed execution on getting any pin out whatsoever. If one were to come up with a playbook for how to NOT run a business, really there is no better poster child than DR.
Our next pin is Alien. And really if I wasn’t being stupid about it I’d take that $7K and buy a bunch of used redemption games instead, especially that “price is right” money wheel. But at least with Alien I don’t have to explain to my customers what the hell it is all about, and I have a pretty damn good sense of how it plays to know I’ll like it.
Added over 3 years ago:“And the pin all league gets to even exist because of the non-pin playing customers.”
To further clarify this statement since it has been taken out of context: Our pinball league (any pinball league for that matter) playing at my arcade (or any arcade for that matter) only gets to play at my arcade (or any arcade for that matter) because there are other paying customers at my arcade (or any arcade for that matter) that foot most of the operational bill. And thus if you are an arcade operator of any type you necessarily have to focus on the desires of the other paying customers that foot most of your operational bill over the desires of you and you league members if you want to keep the business open. For those other paying customers theme matter most if they are to be enticed to play pinball.
Quoted from rotordave:Didn’t Robert try to buy Spooky Pinball before he started DeepRooters?
I think that was the case ...
rd
Sorry that's part of the history I won't post online until this company is gone.
Quoted from frolic:Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
License definitely first.
All you have to do is take a glance at the Mandolorian thread. People are circle jerking over getting in on an LE and how incredibly lucky they were to snag one...without ever seeing so much as a single picture.
Quoted from RobT:All you have to do is take a glance at the Mandolorian thread. People are circle jerking over getting in on an LE and how incredibly lucky they were to snag one...without ever seeing so much as a single picture.
It's as if they're watching porn on dial-up in that thread.
Quoted from RobT:License definitely first.
All you have to do is take a glance at the Mandolorian thread.
For what DR spent saving Zidware they could have had a Star Wars.
2 years rent would have gotten them a Beatles.
1 years salary of a washed up designer would have gotten them pretty much any A- movie license (Big Trouble, Goonies, 5TH element)
But no. They listened to John wax nostalgic about the "B/W good old days" like a fat middle aged man reminiscing on when he was the star quarterback in high school and his wife still had the cheerleader bod.
3 seconds on Pinside tells you what people want - Gen X licenses. It's not rocket science. DR doesn't understand that OG B/W themes after Funhouse didn't sell that great (by those standards) and only became treasured a decade after the company was gone.
There is CLEAR DATA of how well you can expect an original theme to do in the present - sub 200 if you're new, 500 if there's buzz (TNA) and 1500 if the game is really cool and has a legend making it.
Robert's projections for the Zidware games were in the thousands each. Lunacy! That's why I think the money is gone, if he sold investors on the same numbers we saw back in 2015 they can't be too happy with 130 units.
Quoted from benheck:Robert's projections for the Zidware games were in the thousands each. Lunacy! That's why I think the money is gone, if he sold investors on the same numbers we saw back in 2015 they can't be too happy with 130 units.
The only thing worse than selling less than 130 units (as I think that includes the discounted or free units given to zidware customoers?) is then losing more money the more you make if you mispriced them. If you did not have your costs in order when you sold them, then you get the joy of now being incentivized to make as few as possible to stop your losses.
Pinball is a manufacturing business... that is where you should be making your money. Not noodling endlessly.
Quoted from RobT:...All you have to do is take a glance at the Mandolorian thread. People are circle jerking over getting in on an LE and how incredibly lucky they were to snag one...
Note to self: Keep a fair distance away from the Mandalorian LE guys.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:The only thing worse than selling less than 130 units (as I think that includes the discounted or free units given to zidware customoers?) is then losing more money the more you make if you mispriced them. If you did not have your costs in order when you sold them, then you get the joy of now being incentivized to make as few as possible to stop your losses.
Pinball is a manufacturing business... that is where you should be making your money. Not noodling endlessly.
Well yeah, he admitted that - remember when they were going to make 160 and the extra units would be sold at the "true price" which was thousands higher than the main run?
Now they are "only making what's ordered" which is why I think it's an exit strategy. If they stuck with 160 flat then that's how many people would expect them to build. But now they have an out. Announce another delay + refunds, then say "we had too many refunds to make this run viable" even if it's not true.
And yes, factor in existing Zidware customers + a couple distributers and the actual new sales is probably SUB 100.
To pookyarcade's point above - yes theme is everything. RAZA only appeals to the same group of people who know John's history. Not a good mix!
Quoted from benheck:To pookyarcade's point above - yes theme is everything. RAZA only appeals to the same group of people who know John's history. Not a good mix!
It would also help if the owner didn't act like a pretentious asshole. I buy every spooky game, not only because I like their games, but also because I like the people running it and their story, and I enjoy supporting them.
Vancouver, BC
Quoted from joetechbob:It would also help if the owner didn't act like a pretentious asshole. I buy every spooky game, not only because I like their games, but also because I like the people running it and their story, and I enjoy supporting them.
Quoted from benheck:Sorry that's part of the history I won't post online until this company is gone.
I look forward to your mid-May post.
It looks a Robert Mueller of San Antonio has been recently a party to a civil suit.
You can view the records through the Bexar County Civil Smart Search (https://portal-txbexar.tylertech.cloud/Portal/).
The suit is:
2020CI20793 - HOLTS MECHANICAL LTD VS ROBERT J MUELLER ET AL [Deeproot, Deeproot Tech]. Served at Deeproot. Settled 3/29/21.
London
Quoted from benheck:Sorry that's part of the history I won't post online until this company is gone.
Plot twist.
Quoted from Inside:It looks like various Robert Muellers of San Antonio have been recently parties to multiple civil suits.
You can view the records through the Bexar County Civil Smart Search (https://portal-txbexar.tylertech.cloud/Portal/).
The suits are:
2020CI20793 - HOLTS MECHANICAL LTD VS ROBERT J MUELLER ET AL [Deeproot, Deeproot Tech]. Served at Deeproot. Settled 3/29/21.
2020CV04262 - FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF OMAHA VS ROBERT J MUELLER (Debt/Contract) - Pending.
2021CI00320 - SOFI LENDING CORP VS ROBERT MUELLER (Debt/Contract), still unserved.
Oh those silly old things ? That was just Robert collecting more back box material for their forthcoming title “DR presents Debt Collector”. Probably saved a bunch not having to hire actors for footage.
Quoted from Inside:It looks like various Robert Muellers of San Antonio have been recently parties to multiple civil suits.
You can view the records through the Bexar County Civil Smart Search (https://portal-txbexar.tylertech.cloud/Portal/).
The suits are:
2020CI20793 - HOLTS MECHANICAL LTD VS ROBERT J MUELLER ET AL [Deeproot, Deeproot Tech]. Served at Deeproot. Settled 3/29/21.
2020CV04262 - FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF OMAHA VS ROBERT J MUELLER (Debt/Contract) - Pending.
2021CI00320 - SOFI LENDING CORP VS ROBERT MUELLER (Debt/Contract), still unserved.
ABBE8E94-6248-41C8-8075-80F7129FC75D (resized).jpegCan someone refresh me on how the PPP loans work with respect to a company's responsibilities regarding employee retention? I know there has been curiosity surrounding how many people are actually still working at DR, how many are being properly paid, etc.
Returning to these filings:
https://www.sba.com/ppp-funded-companies/texas/deeproot-studios-llc-562773
DEEPROOT STUDIOS, LLC
Loan Amount Range: $350,000 - $1,000,000
Date Approved: 2020-05-13
Jobs Retained: 18
https://www.sba.com/ppp-funded-companies/texas/deeproot-tech-llc-562774
DEEPROOT TECH, LLC
Loan Amount Range: $350,000 - $1,000,000
Date Approved: 2020-05-08
Jobs Retained: 27
Quoted from Inside:It looks like various Robert Muellers of San Antonio have been recently parties to multiple civil suits.
You can view the records through the Bexar County Civil Smart Search (https://portal-txbexar.tylertech.cloud/Portal/).
The suits are:
2020CI20793 - HOLTS MECHANICAL LTD VS ROBERT J MUELLER ET AL [Deeproot, Deeproot Tech]. Served at Deeproot. Settled 3/29/21.
2020CV04262 - FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF OMAHA VS ROBERT J MUELLER (Debt/Contract) - Pending.
2021CI00320 - SOFI LENDING CORP VS ROBERT MUELLER (Debt/Contract), still unserved.
Yikes. This seems like it could be a huge issue.
I did some more digging and it looks like there's been only one suit for sure against deeproot (2020CI20793).
2020CV04262 appears to be against someone who is in the military (mentions of Soldier Civil Relief Act) and 2021CI00320 doesn't have enough information.
Sorry - not that exciting.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Can someone refresh me on how the PPP loans work with respect to a company's responsibilities regarding employee retention? I know there has been curiosity surrounding how many people are actually still working at DR, how many are being properly paid, etc.
Returning to these filings:
https://www.sba.com/ppp-funded-companies/texas/deeproot-studios-llc-562773
DEEPROOT STUDIOS, LLC
Loan Amount Range: $350,000 - $1,000,000
Date Approved: 2020-05-13
Jobs Retained: 18
https://www.sba.com/ppp-funded-companies/texas/deeproot-tech-llc-562774
DEEPROOT TECH, LLC
Loan Amount Range: $350,000 - $1,000,000
Date Approved: 2020-05-08
Jobs Retained: 27
Found a site with additional details
TDLR: Is this really saying that between Deeproot Studios + Deeproot Tech would have spent at least $5.57 million on payroll in 2019???
Deeproot Tech:
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/deeproot-tech-llc-san-antonio-tx
Screen Shot 2021-05-09 at 1.19.43 PM (resized).png
Deeproot Studios:
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/deeproot-studios-llc-san-antonio-tx
Quoted from Mr68:I look forward to your mid-May post.
Haha you mean June 1st?
Maybe they'll surprise us haters but I don't know how this works financially. STUPID money spent to sell 100 of something... Only works if you're making yachts.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Found a site with additional details
TDLR: Is this really saying that between Deeproot Studios + Deeproot Tech would have spent at least $5.57 million on payroll in 2019???
Deeproot Tech:
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/deeproot-tech-llc-san-antonio-tx
[quoted image]
Deeproot Studios:
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/deeproot-studios-llc-san-antonio-tx
[quoted image]
You are correct on the 5.57 million 2019 payroll number between the 2 companies. What I find equally hilarious is they were showing 45 employees between the 2 companies which makes for an average annual salary of just under 130,000
Some of the animation stuff deeproot paid for does look nice. Would have been cool to see them make it into pinball machines.
Screen Shot 2021-05-09 at 1.31.41 PM (resized).png
(note, not all of the content in the demo is for deeproot)
Food Truck
https://www.facebook.com/futurehousestudiosllc/posts/221372493072552
https://www.facebook.com/futurehousestudiosllc/posts/205002998042835
Quoted from benheck:What's that? Circus Voltaire didn't sell a fraction of STTNG or TZ?
Dodge Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds were considered sales failures at the time, and sat on dealer lots.
But they are very appreciated today.
I'll hang onto my CV.
20210509_194543 (resized).jpgPromoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
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