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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#17551 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from benheck:

The best way would be to screen print the underside as it would be super fast one color and not eat up flatbed printer time.
I also like how deeproot has it painted white to bounce more light.

Why would you want it to bounce more light? The lights are pointing up. If excess light escapes, then it would make non lit inserts faintly light

I don’t think that’s a serious concern, I just don’t see the benefit of bouncing light vs potential downsides.

Manufacturers used to paint them all a flat gray. I assume that was to cheaply absorb light pollution instead of faintly lighting things? Never heard a good answer for why that was.

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#17552 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

It makes it easier for the user to see things under the game.

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#17553 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

They should include a white towel with the purchase then. Lay it in the bottom of the cabinet and no more cursing while looking for that damn screw that fell off your allegedly magnetic screwdriver.

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#17554 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Allegedly Magnetic Screwdriver is my next band name.

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#17555 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,582 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

Serial lighting works fine, just like nuclear power. As long as you do it right. We are using it on new system and haven't had any problems. We even tested it by wrapping strips around power tools, coils and extension cords.

LOL! I've said it before, and I'll say it once in this thread. If you're designing a production control system for a pinball machine and doing lighting entirely with serial LEDs under the playfield (or if you're an MFG building volume machines with that design), throw it out and start again. Seriously, throw it away now. Empirical evidence on a few machines or lab setups is not engineering, and trusting it is a recipe for disaster. I suppose you can argue "it's fine if you do it right" with anything, and in this case, you're very likely to not do it right.

Trying to save money by doing all of your lighting serially below the playfield will fail in volume, and it'll cost you more in the long run, but if you want to try it, you can easily do so with our boards. Each of our PD-LED boards can control 682 RGB LEDs, either serially (all in one chain or up to six chains) or with both serial and parallel LEDs (and up to 12 servos too).

I have no idea why so many pinball companies continue to try to use shortcuts, reinvent the wheel, and ignore advice from people who know better. It ALWAYS costs more in the long run, but if you want to try it, you're still better off going with a P3-ROC, a couple of PD-16s, a few SW-16s, and that one PD-LED. Your volume pricing will likely be lower than doing it yourself or using a single board that tries to do everything, your (and your customers') long term maintenance costs will be significantly less, and your software implementation costs will also be easier and less expensive. I of course talked with RM about this, but unsurprisingly he went his own route, and one of many reasons why the machines are taking so long is probably the amount of churn on their control system and software infrastructure associated with it.

If anybody ever wants our help, just message me. When Spooky switched to our boards for ACNC, we had it swapped in and working on their prototype in 3 days. Spend time designing and building your games. Reinventing THAT wheel is one of the worst ideas imaginable for a new pinball company and continues to be the downfall of people who don't realize what they don't know.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17556 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Doesn’t Stern use parallel?

Seems like they would have a good idea on what’s cheapest yet reliable enough.

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#17557 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,218

Quoted from gstellenberg:

LOL! I've said it before, and I'll say it once in this thread. If you're designing a production control system for a pinball machine and doing lighting entirely with serial LEDs under the playfield (or if you're an MFG building volume machines with that design), throw it out and start again. Seriously, throw it away now. Empirical evidence on a few machines or lab setups is not engineering, and trusting it is a recipe for disaster. I suppose you can argue "it's fine if you do it right" with anything, and in this case, you're very likely to not do it right.

I'm confused... you tell people to not use serial LEDs.. and retort with your board that boasts high capacities through... using serial LED chains?

I know the spec has 84 individual color LEDs... (or 28 RGB).. but I'm still confused by your pitch except for the translation of "we already did it, why try to repeat our work" ?

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#17558 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,582 24 10

Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm confused... you tell people to not use serial LEDs

I very specifically didn't say that. We use serial LEDs ourselves in many places. Just like Ben's nuclear power example, there are places to use them and places they should be avoided. There's absolutely nothing wrong with serial LEDs themselves. They're great and convenient devices... just not in areas where there's a lot of EM noise, like under a pinball playfield. If your control system only supports serial LEDs, then you're already in trouble.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17559 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm confused... you tell people to not use serial LEDs.. and retort with your board that boasts high capacities through... using serial LED chains?
I know the spec has 84 individual color LEDs... (or 28 RGB).. but I'm still confused by your pitch except for the translation of "we already did it, why try to repeat our work" ?

I see it as it’s there if you want to use it. There are good applications for serial, like above the playfield or cabinet lighting.

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#17560 3 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

Quoted from epthegeek:

Going to sell $50,000 for $5,000? I can't see any way that ends badly.

Post #3, this thread could have ended right there without 17500 more posts basically saying the same thing...

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#17561 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,837

Quoted from benheck:

WOZ was like the 3 Mile Island of serial RGB. A good idea tainted by bad execution.
Whoever did WOZ didn't RTFM. Their RGB modules had built in voltage regulators, which takes a higher voltage and knocks it down to 5v for operation.
Linear buck regulators have what's called "drop out voltage" which is the minimum input voltage above the output voltage before the regulator stops working. Rule of thumb is about 2v. (switching regulators can go much lower, thus more efficient)
WOZ supplied these boards with the same voltage they outputted (5v) which is why they didn't quite work. It's actually shocking they worked at all. And thus the fix was to supply them with a voltage above the drop out of 5V, hence the "7v fix"
Serial lighting works fine, just like nuclear power. As long as you do it right. We are using it on new system and haven't had any problems. We even tested it by wrapping strips around power tools, coils and extension cords.

That’s really unbelievable. Anyone working with an LED controller should know this. In fact the opposite is also true. For some controllers if you don’t have a minimum drop across your load they can go wildly out of regulation. And unfortunately this “feature” is poorly documented since all we are given is a potted black box with no circuit diagram

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#17562 3 years ago
 
FST

fastpinball

FAST Pinball

US Gig Harbor, WA

10y 91,550 1,699 3

Quoted from gstellenberg:

I very specifically didn't say that. We use serial LEDs ourselves in many places. Just like Ben's nuclear power example, there are places to use them and places they should be avoided. There's absolutely nothing wrong with serial LEDs themselves. They're great and convenient devices... just not in areas where there's a lot of EM noise, like under a pinball playfield. If your control system only supports serial LEDs, then you're already in trouble.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Gerry, you really need to drop this argument. The bottom line on this is that if you know what you are doing with serial LEDs and you wire your game up properly, then you will be just fine. Period.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

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#17563 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Besides early WOZ, does anyone use serial LEDs in a production game? Pretty sure the majority of the under the playfield LEDs in Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky, American Pinball, Multimorphic, and Chicago Gaming use parallel (with some serial applications like Hot Rails and Expression Lighting)

I’m sure there’s a way to do serial right, but the industry seems to think parallel is the way to go.

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#17564 3 years ago
 
ADS

EalaDubhSidhe

Pinside member

GB Merthyr Tydfil

11y 58,050 1,212

Quoted from benheck:

A truly innovative pinball wouldn't have very many wires under the PF at all.
But again, deeproot put their "innovation" everywhere BUT the playfield itself.

Well, we tried it. But it created new problems we hadn't foreseen, most notably how cheapass components and connectors would get shaken loose during international transit.

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#17565 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,645

Quoted from fastpinball:

The bottom line on this is that if you know what you are doing with serial LEDs and you wire your game up properly, then you will be just fine. Period.

Speaking of LED's and not knowing what they're doing, listen to how LED lights are pronounced as, "LEAD".
Shouldn't one of his team have told him?

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#17566 3 years ago
 
FST

fastpinball

FAST Pinball

US Gig Harbor, WA

10y 91,550 1,699 3

Quoted from Mr68:Speaking of LED's and not knowing what they're doing, listen to how LED lights are pronouncing as, "LEAD".
Shouldn't one of his team have told him?

When used with Ned, they are pronounced that way. Ned's LEDs!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

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#17567 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,582 24 10

Quoted from fastpinball:

Gerry, you really need to drop this argument. The bottom line on this is that if you know what you are doing with serial LEDs and you wire your game up properly, then you will be just fine. Period.

At least you've given yourself an out if somebody's lighting is glitchy or fails!

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17568 3 years ago
 
FST

fastpinball

FAST Pinball

US Gig Harbor, WA

10y 91,550 1,699 3

Quoted from gstellenberg:

At least you've given yourself an out if somebody's lighting is glitchy or fails!
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Huh?

If someone's lighting is glitchy or fails I would certainly want to know about it and provide guidance to remedy the situation.

Wouldn't you?

Aaron
FAST Pinball

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#17569 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,218

Quoted from gstellenberg:

I very specifically didn't say that.

So your lol and needing to come out was purely so you could hang on the distinction of “entirely” ??

Something ben didn’t claim either...

Quoted from gstellenberg:

They're great and convenient devices... just not in areas where there's a lot of EM noise, like under a pinball playfield.

Isn’t that where like 90% of controlled lights in a pinball machine?

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#17570 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Focus fellas, focus. This is a thread for deeproot pinball enthusiasts.

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#17571 3 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Focus fellas, focus. This is a thread for deeproot pinball enthusiasts.

That’s the other thread. This ones the DR realist, hater, and anyone in between thread

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#17572 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Gerry I can't help but think you like parallel LEDs because you get to sell a $70 driver board for every 28 RGB lights a customer needs.

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#17573 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from benheck:

Gerry I can't help but think you like parallel LEDs because you get to sell a $70 driver board for every 28 RGB lights a customer needs.

But it also does serial if that’s what you want to do. Best of both worlds

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#17574 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

You know what else csn do serial? A single SPI port on a $2 MCU, using DMA and near zero overhead.

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#17575 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

I won’t get into the electrical engineering weeds because that’s out of my league

But as someone who buys homebrew equipment and tries to understand the arguments made by the designers, I see it as I can pay a little more for a lot more flexibility. I’m also not concerned with BOM on a production machine where margins are low

That said, I’m interested in your product whenever it’s available. It’s nice having multiple tools in the toolbox.

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#17576 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

I'm still working on the documentation. Goal is to have it also be Mission Pinball Framework compatible. But yes, we will sell them to anybody who wants it. Except Homepin of course!

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#17577 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Is all this all this talk about wiring, leds, and boards part of the lore for Machine Age (Primary Designer: Nordman)?

Post last edited 3 years ago: “Birdman -> Nordman (autotext)”

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#17578 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Great. MPF is amazing for a dummy like me who just wants to buy random mechs and drunkenly use power tools to make something fun

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#17579 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Is all this all this talk about wiring, leds, and boards part of the lore for Machine Age (Primary Designer: Birdman)?

Surprised Machine Age isn’t a JPop tribute to Anghelo

Your fingers are the flippers!

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#17580 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Great. MPF is amazing for a dummy like me who just wants to buy random mechs and drunkenly use power tools to make something fun

That’s why it’s called homebrew not homewaterandtakeyourselftooseriously.

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#17581 3 years ago
 
BHZ

ZNET

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 135K 1,923

I love reading the technical dialogue even though I understand less than 1% of the terminology. Let's face it. Pinball is populated by some wicked smart people.

Meanwhile, although non-technical, I can think of an ingredient which would improve Food Truck: a daisy chain of bacon.

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#17582 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,645

I'm just an end user that likes bright and colorful lead's.

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#17583 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

"I joined deeproot pinball because Robert’s vision and enthusiasm remind me of the same strengths that made companies like Apple Computers or Tesla Motors so cutting-edge and successful. ‘Quality is Number One and The Sky is the Limit’.
- Jon Norris

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#17584 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

That’s why it’s called homebrew not homewaterandtakeyourselftooseriously.

I used to homebrew beer and was certified to be a BJCP judge. But some of those guys become insufferable while they lecture you on mineral profiles in water. “But beer is 90% water!” they’d yell to no one giving a shit.

I am a nerd so I do like the knowledge behind it and seek advice of experts. Yet at a certain point the fun/point is lost in the engineering.

That said, I do respect the passion guys like Ben, Aaron, and Gerry have. I don’t doubt they’ve all spent a lot of time thinking about their design decisions and are genuinely enthusiastic to discuss this stuff.

Anyhow. Let’s all agree that none of this really matters because deeproot ain’t building nothing.

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#17585 3 years ago
 
POO

seenev

Pinside member

8y 62,050 2,181 17

Quoted from Mr68:

I'm just an end user that likes bright and colorful leads.

Here you go!

alec-baldwin-glengarry-dlen-ross-sales-leads-contactous_1_orig (resized).jpgalec-baldwin-glengarry-dlen-ross-sales-leads-contactous_1_orig (resized).jpg
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#17586 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Screenshot_20210411-151625 (resized).pngScreenshot_20210411-151625 (resized).png

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#17587 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Yeah it’s awesome that anyone is moving this hobby forward in any way other than talking shit on the internet and being wealthy enough to purchase these big giant toys. Hats off to all the passionate people making the hobby better and to you and me, drinking and playing with power tools even though we know we will never be real pinball designers. At least we didn’t kid ourselves into starting a company.

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#17588 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,582 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

Gerry I can't help but think you like parallel LEDs because you get to sell a $70 driver board for every 28 RGB lights a customer needs.

Well we don't just sell the boards. We also use the PD-LEDs in the P3 and on P3 playfields. We use serial LEDs for the cabinet lighting, the CCR shot liners, and a few places on Heist, and we use parallel LEDs for all underplayfield lighting, both in the main platform and on playfield modules. If we sold a special parallel LED board for $5 and a special serial LED board for $100 (obviously these are unrealistic numbers), I'd still be giving the same advice and continuing to follow it myself. A few of us have also given a lot of advice to other companies that has cost us sales, and we've developed a lot of the tools and features many of our competitors are using, even some that aren't using our boards, and you know that. So to suggest I'm saying things specifically for financial gain is a bit disingenuous. Use our boards or somebody else's... that's up to every company and/or machine developer to decide, but using serial LEDs for your underplayfield inserts is a recipe for disaster. I've explained in detail in other threads, and the counter argument is always "it'll be fine; you just have to know what you're doing." Well, if people really knew what they were doing, they wouldn't use them under the playfield, and then I'd agree, it'd be fine.

From a technical standpoint, I'm really surprised this is even a discussion. From a BOM standpoint, parallel LEDs will cost a bit more (boards and wiring). From a maintenance and support standpoint, again, there's no comparison. Regardless, as already mentioned, you can go completely serial with our boards if you want too, but I wouldn't recommend it.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17589 3 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Manufacturers used to paint them all a flat gray. I assume that was to cheaply absorb light pollution instead of faintly lighting things? Never heard a good answer for why that was.

Add all your leftover cabinet paints together and what do you get? Grey paint. What else you going to do with it? Paint the bottom to seal the wood.

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#17590 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,837

Fire and Brimstone for his next pin eh ? Well, JPOP has the fire part pretty much worked out already. Just needs to throw in the brimstone for good measure.

C29B7FF3-794E-4147-A21A-202CDFFFCF38 (resized).jpegC29B7FF3-794E-4147-A21A-202CDFFFCF38 (resized).jpeg
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#17591 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

I think the p3 is cool and hope to have the chance to play it someday. That said, can we move discussion about it and its associated technology elsewhere? This thread is about deeproot. Talk about actually-manufactured, functional, fun-producing commercial pinball machines enjoyed in the homes of customers has no place here and is totally inappropriate.

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#17592 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

I think the p3 is cool and hope to have the chance to play it someday. That said, can we move discussion about it and its associated technology elsewhere? This thread is about deeproot. Talk about actually-manufactured, functional, fun-producing commercial pinball machines enjoyed in the homes of customers has no place here and is totally inappropriate.

I’d say this had been one of the more interesting conversations as of late. It directly applies to deeproot as they are going to release a product with their own controller using a design method that is known to be troublesome if not well executed, and we have highly educated engineers providing perspective (while selling their stuff, gotta respect the hustle)

Serial lighting is actually something different that deep root is trying to do well. (Bens game will probably hit market before theirs though )

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#17593 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

It's all over my head and seems to have branched off to only have an ancillary relationship to deeproot at this point, converting into backs and forths between people who actually build stuff about what's the best way to build stuff. And of course deeproot doesn't actually build stuff.

So carry on if you must, though please don't lose sight of the original purpose of this thread. Just remember to throw in the occasional new deeproot embarrassment from time to time and all should be well.

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#17594 3 years ago
 
JIM

Jvspin

Pinside+ Addict

US Redwood City, CA

11y 95,050 3,368 15

Quoted from benheck:

WOZ was like the 3 Mile Island of serial RGB. A good idea tainted by bad execution.
Whoever did WOZ didn't RTFM. Their RGB modules had built in voltage regulators, which takes a higher voltage and knocks it down to 5v for operation.
Linear buck regulators have what's called "drop out voltage" which is the minimum input voltage above the output voltage before the regulator stops working. Rule of thumb is about 2v. (switching regulators can go much lower, thus more efficient)
WOZ supplied these boards with the same voltage they outputted (5v) which is why they didn't quite work. It's actually shocking they worked at all. And thus the fix was to supply them with a voltage above the drop out of 5V, hence the "7v fix".

The 7V fix did not take care of the problem 100%. According to Frank at JJP service, the LED driver chips they used were prone to failure and are no longer manufactured. I'm guessing that's what drove the parallel solution they developed for WOZ.

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

So carry on if you must, though please don't lose sight of the original purpose of this thread. Just remember to throw in the occasional new deeproot embarrassment from time to time and all should be well.

Oh yeah, Go Deeproot...
I'm sure their serial LED solution will be flawless!

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#17595 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Gerry, we can probably agree on one thing at least - deeproot needs to DIE!

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#17596 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from benheck:

Gerry, we can probably agree on one thing at least - deeproot needs to DIE!

Only to rise again as zombies of the retro atomic variety???

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#17597 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Only to rise again as zombies of the retro atomic variety???

Get some aliens in there, and baby you got a stew going

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#17598 3 years ago
 
DJS

zaphX

Pinside+ Frequent

US Frisco, TX

6y 108K 6,265 3 13 4

Reading this thread I can’t help but think...

00A6640B-4831-4E13-B755-4C6E4CA13949.jpeg00A6640B-4831-4E13-B755-4C6E4CA13949.jpeg
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#17599 3 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,538

Quoted from zaphX:

Reading this thread I can’t help but think...[quoted image]

Scraps made by gstellenberg

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#17600 3 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,175 16

Quoted from benheck:

But yes, we will sell them to anybody who wants it. Except Homepin of course!

Thats-Racist.gifThats-Racist.gif

Quoted from benheck:

Gerry, we can probably agree on one thing at least - deeproot needs to DIE!

They're already dead. They just don't know it yet.

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