(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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There are 33,444 posts in this topic. You are on page 348 of 669.
#17351 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

In all candidness, I'm starting to feel bad for RM amidst all this failure. I can get very stressed and down over far smaller things, and can only imagine how I'd feel right now if I were in his position.

Hard to know what to think. I'm sure it's been frustrating

#17352 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Hard to know what to think. I'm sure it's been frustrating

And predictable. That's what has been feeding this thread so much.

"This time it's different".

#17353 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Speaking of round off they will need a few extra games anyway for the ones that are damaged/destroyed in shipping.
It's often faster to build a new game than to fix a bad one.

No, these are pIndestructable (tm)!

#17354 2 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Time will tell.

Bleh... everything listed is stuff already in the past, which is why the reactions happened. Time has ALREADY TOLD... and why they've deserved what they got.

#17355 2 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

I stand by my statement...

Well... you were given the opportunity to reflect and notice your mistake. But instead you double downed.

Next hint... Ben has been involved with alot more projects than just AMH. And that's not even counting the homebrew projects... that also got further than any JPOP project.

#17356 2 years ago

The illusion of making pinball is that a single man, who has seen others do it, can think, since others have done it, I can make my own pinball machine on my own, and then they start into it and then they see that for someone to come up with all the assets needed, mechanics, layout, power distribution, control, switch sensing, feedback, sound, lights, artwork, music, display, graphics, animations, voice callouts, rules, operating system, software, play testing, reliability testing... all which goes into a single product, has to be done by themselves alone, and then they think... ah! But wait! 80% of this stuff is the same from machine to machine, so really I only need X, Y, and Z and I'm 99% there. They just don't actually know what goes into that last 1%... blood, sweat, tears, money, money, money, sleepless nights, for months on end... and when the money runs out, the panic sets in, the schemings begin, the fraud is carefully orchestrated, the willing participants are targeted, the pitch goes out, the monies collected, and then the waiting begins... tick tock tick tock

#17357 2 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I understand but I'm not sure it is applicable in this case. Remember these are very small numbers. Stern orders 20,000 flipper buttons, JJP orders 5000 and Deeproot wants 300 instead of 250? Don't think it is worth the vendors time to break that order up.

I would imagine some vendor MOQs to be greater than what DR needs. Surprised to hear they won’t be making any extra machines as a result.

That letter sounds like the throes of death. ‘We’ll do what we can when we can, thanks.’

#17358 2 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Honestly I just feel for DR. Hey at least they were upfront. Even RM must be eating a big piece of humble pie here. What I just do not understand is why there is not a single truth teller in there. You know, the guy who says “Hey at Stern/AP/JJP/Williams the time to go from complete design to shipping product is a minimum 12 months”. Where is that guy ? It just seems like even at this late stage they remain completely in the dark about what it takes to build and ship a device. All of us know that Fall and likely end of the year is more realistic. Why can’t they just say it ?

When JPop was at Williams they had the process ironed out to the point that they probably could ramp up within a few months. This is back when movie pins were tied to releases and they hoped they picked a winner.

So I can imagine a world where JPop says it’ll take so long to get parts, pass certifications, etc. based on past experience (where someone else did this work)

But I feel like other experienced vets like Ousler know better. But maybe he’s ignored and/or treating this as semi-retirement. Nordman bounced for good reason

They first said these things would be coming out January and be done by March.

I think September is more realistic, and that’s with things going their way

10
#17359 2 years ago

Cary hardy just released a video talking about this latest update, highly reccomend watching it. Its just really interesting to me that pretty much anyone that has first hand experience with deeproot says that shit is fucked, but nah, the preorder folk probably know better.

#17360 2 years ago

Its over.. They may get a few RAZAs out, but thats it. Sadly, no Food Truck coming.

#17361 2 years ago

it just shows a lack of experience. pinball has so many skill requirements and dependencies what this has show is how poor Robert is. sure you can blame JPop but Jpop is Jpop.

Next stage of learning for deeproot is actual scale manufacturing which given the lack of photos feels like its starting at zero... this shitshow has got many chapters still to be written.

At least on the certification if they stick with the same cabinet/power/cpu design they won't need to do that bit again. This is why Stern are able to roll games out in record time.

#17362 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

it just shows a lack of experience. pinball has so many skill requirements and dependencies what this has show is how poor Robert is. sure you can blame JPop but Jpop is Jpop.
Next stage of learning for deeproot is actual scale manufacturing which given the lack of photos feels like its starting at zero... this shitshow has got many chapters still to be written.
At least on the certification if they stick with the same cabinet/power/cpu design they won't need to do that bit again. This is why Stern are able to roll games out in record time.

You think there are chapters? Production is the hard part here and that appears to be a year away.. Like others have said, that letter reads like a pre-written obituary , they are just waiting on the date of death.

10
#17363 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Cary hardy just released a video talking about this latest update, highly reccomend watching it. Its just really interesting to me that pretty much anyone that has first hand experience with deeproot says that shit is fucked, but nah, the preorder folk probably know better.

This part was the most telling, including Cary's comment about what was in his mind when he was in the building for his visit:

#17364 2 years ago

Its a gone dead train.

#17365 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This part was the most telling, including Cary's comment about what was in his mind when he was in the building for his visit:

The first 10 seconds of this video from where you linked it reaffirms why I cannot watch Cary Hardy. Good grief that guy overacts.

#17366 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This part was the most telling, including Cary's comment about what was in his mind when he was in the building for his visit:

Great post. I agree with his comments. I do not think the preorder bunch will be cancelling though.

#17367 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

The first 10 seconds of this video from where you linked it reaffirms why I cannot watch Cary Hardy. Good grief that guy overacts.

Whats the over reaction?

16
#17368 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Whats the over reaction?

I said overact, not overreact...he goes way over the top on his mannerisms like he is some kind of acclaimed self-important movie/food/wine critic. I just can't watch it. Maybe I am just getting old, or maybe I have had my fill of edge-lords these days.

14
#17369 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I said overact, not overreact...he goes way over the top on his mannerisms like he is some kind of acclaimed self-important movie/food/wine critic. I just can't watch it. Maybe I am just getting old, or maybe I have had my fill of edge-lords these days.

I have to disagree. I enjoy CH's content. The variety and production level of his stuff is great and I don't find him to be the least bit pretentious.

#17370 2 years ago

This letter shows again unrealistic goals that they inevitably will miss.

Today they say they sill have parts and cert issues...
And they think those problems will extend for weeks yet
They have given zero indication they have built out or tested their production processes...

And set another milestone of if game availability is not eminent... they will offer restitution.

Well i suggest you get your name on the list NOW because they are not going to ramp from nothing to games rolling daily in less than 4 weeks.

They should be building sub assemblies now... they should be training and running trial builds. But they boast of none of this but talk about being held up before the starting line. Even with everything in the building- they would not go from zero to volume in weeks.

Their UL and CE work is not going to result in changes to their playfields or mechanisms on them. They would be dealing with power, safety, and emissions... largely stuff constrained to the physical cabinet, power, and boards systems.

Yet... no indication of building what they could? Or showing progress to prove they can?

#17371 2 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

I do not think the preorder bunch will be cancelling though.

Its not often people get a second chance and I think most are ready to get off the roller coaster now.

16
#17372 2 years ago

So the original 5 days of deeproot was supposed to be two years ago.

then it was supposed to be last year, with the bit RAZA reveal. Then covid hit, but covid hit two weeks before TPF, so how do you go from two weeks away and a year later, you are still months away of games being made. Obviously there were not remotely close to being ready to make games, and covid is the excuse that keeps on giving.

I do recall when RM first came on the seen he was threatening AP about Houdini and that there would be legal issues if they shipped or some nonsense like that. At that point AP less than a year removed from JPOP and Magic Girl. Since they AP has built and shipped houdini and two more games, and in that same time Deeproot has shown a prototype of RAZA. How is that AP could with, by all accounts, far less resources achieve this and Robert and his brilliance and money could not. Spooky has been cranking as well, but I used AP since there beginnings and DR are very similar.

Along those same lines, in the last year we have seen, TMNT ship, AIQ ship, Hot Wheels Ship, R&M ship, GnR Ship, LZ ship -- somehow Stern, JJP, AP and Spooky all managed to navigate through these difficult times, and while I am sure they have all been impacted, they have all gotten plenty of games out. Obviously it can be done.

So here we are, a year (or two) after they reveal was supposed to happen and they still haven't shipped a game and now are going to make even fewer, but at this point that actually make sense. For many parts, 150 vs 500 is twice the price and probably 3x or 4x that of buying 1000+, but game is priced not that different than other games, so the BOM cost must be significantly higher than it should be, and they have to be losing a fortune on each unit, just on the parts and labor (no matter what quad manufacturing is), forget about recovering any of the millions spent on R&D, SG&A, etc. Certainly not with this title and well probably not ever -- so why would you want to make any more than you have to? I will at least give them credit they finally woke up and realized that when losing money on every machine, you can't make it up with volume thus the short sales window, no longer making extra units, etc.). Only a matter of time before they figure out how to make even fewer, so they lose less money on Raza.

Clearly their only goal with RAZA is to be done with it and move on. Question is, what does moving on look like? Food truck or end of deeproot?

Also, Robert is a narcissist and a blow hard, and this is also other peoples money, so I have little doubt that he believes all failures of Deeproot are the fault of others and not his. That they are all incompetent and not understanding his brilliance and vision. As we move down the road, the pinball people that are there will all be telling us the same story "we told Robert xyz, but he did not listen"

#17373 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I said overact, not overreact...he goes way over the top on his mannerisms like he is some kind of acclaimed self-important movie/food/wine critic. I just can't watch it. Maybe I am just getting old, or maybe I have had my fill of edge-lords these days.

Sorry, no coffee yet!

#17374 2 years ago
Quoted from spoke:

So the original 5 days of deeproot was supposed to be two years ago.
then it was supposed to be last year, with the bit RAZA reveal. Then covid hit, but covid hit two weeks before TPF, so how do you go from two weeks away and a year later, you are still months away of games being made. Obviously there were not remotely close to being ready to make games, and covid is the excuse that keeps on giving.
I do recall when RM first came on the seen he was threatening AP about Houdini and that there would be legal issues if they shipped or some nonsense like that. At that point AP less than a year removed from JPOP and Magic Girl. Since they AP has built and shipped houdini and two more games, and in that same time Deeproot has shown a prototype of RAZA. How is that AP could with, by all accounts, far less resources achieve this and Robert and his brilliance and money could not. Spooky has been cranking as well, but I used AP since there beginnings and DR are very similar.
Along those same lines, in the last year we have seen, TMNT ship, AIQ ship, Hot Wheels Ship, R&M ship, GnR Ship, LZ ship -- somehow Stern, JJP, AP and Spooky all managed to navigate through these difficult times, and while I am sure they have all been impacted, they have all gotten plenty of games out. Obviously it can be done.
So here we are, a year (or two) after they reveal was supposed to happen and they still haven't shipped a game and now are going to make even fewer, but at this point that actually make sense. For many parts, 150 vs 500 is twice the price and probably 3x or 4x that of buying 1000+, but game is priced not that different than other games, so the BOM cost must be significantly higher than it should be, and they have to be losing a fortune on each unit, just on the parts and labor (no matter what quad manufacturing is), forget about recovering any of the millions spent on R&D, SG&A, etc. Certainly not with this title and well probably not ever -- so why would you want to make any more than you have to? I will at least give them credit they finally woke up and realized that when losing money on every machine, you can't make it up with volume thus the short sales window, no longer making extra units, etc.). Only a matter of time before they figure out how to make even fewer, so they lose less money on Raza.
Clearly their only goal with RAZA is to be done with it and move on. Question is, what does moving on look like? Food truck or end of deeproot?
Also, Robert is a narcissist and a blow hard, and this is also other peoples money, so I have little doubt that he believes all failures of Deeproot are the fault of others and not his. That they are all incompetent and not understanding his brilliance and vision. As we move down the road, the pinball people that are there will all be telling us the same story "we told Robert xyz, but he did not listen"

Today’s response will be...

But time will tell..

Lol

#17375 2 years ago

Hey, what happened to the parking lot full of cars and all of that bullshit?

#17376 2 years ago
Quoted from spoke:

So the original 5 days of deeproot was supposed to be two years ago.
then it was supposed to be last year, with the bit RAZA reveal. Then covid hit, but covid hit two weeks before TPF, so how do you go from two weeks away and a year later, you are still months away of games being made. Obviously there were not remotely close to being ready to make games, and covid is the excuse that keeps on giving.
I do recall when RM first came on the seen he was threatening AP about Houdini and that there would be legal issues if they shipped or some nonsense like that. At that point AP less than a year removed from JPOP and Magic Girl. Since they AP has built and shipped houdini and two more games, and in that same time Deeproot has shown a prototype of RAZA. How is that AP could with, by all accounts, far less resources achieve this and Robert and his brilliance and money could not. Spooky has been cranking as well, but I used AP since there beginnings and DR are very similar.
Along those same lines, in the last year we have seen, TMNT ship, AIQ ship, Hot Wheels Ship, R&M ship, GnR Ship, LZ ship -- somehow Stern, JJP, AP and Spooky all managed to navigate through these difficult times, and while I am sure they have all been impacted, they have all gotten plenty of games out. Obviously it can be done.
So here we are, a year (or two) after they reveal was supposed to happen and they still haven't shipped a game and now are going to make even fewer, but at this point that actually make sense. For many parts, 150 vs 500 is twice the price and probably 3x or 4x that of buying 1000+, but game is priced not that different than other games, so the BOM cost must be significantly higher than it should be, and they have to be losing a fortune on each unit, just on the parts and labor (no matter what quad manufacturing is), forget about recovering any of the millions spent on R&D, SG&A, etc. Certainly not with this title and well probably not ever -- so why would you want to make any more than you have to? I will at least give them credit they finally woke up and realized that when losing money on every machine, you can't make it up with volume thus the short sales window, no longer making extra units, etc.). Only a matter of time before they figure out how to make even fewer, so they lose less money on Raza.
Clearly their only goal with RAZA is to be done with it and move on. Question is, what does moving on look like? Food truck or end of deeproot?
Also, Robert is a narcissist and a blow hard, and this is also other peoples money, so I have little doubt that he believes all failures of Deeproot are the fault of others and not his. That they are all incompetent and not understanding his brilliance and vision. As we move down the road, the pinball people that are there will all be telling us the same story "we told Robert xyz, but he did not listen"

What is the common denominator between AP and dr? Jpop. AP dumped him early and the rest is history. DR picked him up, and well, they are about to be history.

#17377 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

AP dumped him early and the rest is history.

And they still got to be listed as a claimant for $300k in the zidware bankruptcy for their troubles.

#17378 2 years ago
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#17379 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I said overact, not overreact...he goes way over the top on his mannerisms like he is some kind of acclaimed self-important movie/food/wine critic. I just can't watch it. Maybe I am just getting old, or maybe I have had my fill of edge-lords these days.

I'd never seen him before but I was expecting some expert explanation and insight into what's going on. Instead he just read the statement and acted like everyone's an idiot by explaining the obvious, and not even very well. Of course he starts the video by asking for subs. This is just filler trying to amp up YouTube stats.

#17380 2 years ago
Quoted from seenev:

I'd never seen him before but I was expecting some expert explanation and insight into what's going on. Instead he just read the statement and acted like everyone's an idiot by explaining the obvious, and not even very well. Of course he starts the video by asking for subs. This is just filler trying to amp up YouTube stats.

If you've watched any amount of pinball podcasts, this is the norm.

I stopped bothering.

#17381 2 years ago
Quoted from seenev:

I'd never seen him before but I was expecting some expert explanation and insight into what's going on. Instead he just read the statement and acted like everyone's an idiot by explaining the obvious, and not even very well. Of course he starts the video by asking for subs. This is just filler trying to amp up YouTube stats.

Obviously, some people need it explained. 350 ish pages of NOTHING, but excuses, blame, arrogance and just plain ignorance, yet some people STILL put up money... So yea....

#17382 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Hey, what happened to the parking lot full of cars and all of that bullshit?

Paying $5 to a bunch of uber drivers to cancel a ride at the last minute is cheaper than renting a bunch of cars and parking them in the lot all day.

40
#17383 2 years ago

What a complete and utter fail. Millions spent and they couldn't outsell AMH - a game I made in a garage WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS and manufactured by Spooky which was started with 30k.

This company is a joke. If they really are trying to make the RAZAs they must be spending a bloody fortune scrambling to do it. Going to incur MASSIVE losses.

Best case they make the RAZAs and fold. End of the day we are all better off as a hobby and industry with this company GONE.

#17384 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

You think there are chapters? Production is the hard part here and that appears to be a year away.. Like others have said, that letter reads like a pre-written obituary , they are just waiting on the date of death.

I'd bet there will be no production. Period. As you say this is just the precursor to the obituary. Reading between the lines it sounds like they may actually want people to opt out. Try to save what little face they might have to some and say, hey there are no longer enough orders to proceed with production due to the number of rescinded pre orders. We can no longer proceed on to production, etc, etc.

#17386 2 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

I'd bet there will be no production. Period. As you say this is just the precursor to the obituary. Reading between the lines it sounds like they may actually want people to opt out. Try to save what little face they might have to some and say, hey there are no longer enough orders to proceed with production due to the number of rescinded pre orders. We can no longer proceed on to production, etc, etc.

Yeah. They make it sound like you’ll make money (nominal interest) if you cancel. That’s basically an incentive to cancel

16
#17387 2 years ago

Man... This is heavy. I think I'll head down to the PinBar™ for a drink.

10
#17388 2 years ago

And you can sleep it off in a PinPod.

#17389 2 years ago

One burning question I have is what are the Deeproot employees doing from day to day now over the last year? There has to be some kind of tangible progress on something there? Raza is done, and was done months ago. Sure, you can still work on code and whatnot...but that is maybe two people total? Given this amount of time, they should have 2-3 other games darn near where RAZA is by now. There is not enough profit in RAZA to even cover one month of the $750k monthly cash burn that was bragged about previously. How many employees are currently on the roster at DR? I feel like the actual number may actually be a lot less than what we are all thinking it is.

#17390 2 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

I'd bet there will be no production. Period. As you say this is just the precursor to the obituary. Reading between the lines it sounds like they may actually want people to opt out. Try to save what little face they might have to some and say, hey there are no longer enough orders to proceed with production due to the number of rescinded pre orders. We can no longer proceed on to production, etc, etc.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Yeah. They make it sound like you’ll make money (nominal interest) if you cancel. That’s basically an incentive to cancel

I had the same thought. Seems the logical direction this would go and a desirable endgame at this point.

#17391 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

How many employees are currently on the roster at DR? I feel like the actual number may actually be a lot less than what we are all thinking it is.

I'd take a stab at a guess of less than 10 ? Pure guess, but that might be a decent wager. Could be as few as a half dozen.

#17392 2 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

I'd bet there will be no production. Period. As you say this is just the precursor to the obituary. Reading between the lines it sounds like they may actually want people to opt out. Try to save what little face they might have to some and say, hey there are no longer enough orders to proceed with production due to the number of rescinded pre orders. We can no longer proceed on to production, etc, etc.

With sales that bad, and if another game THAT WILL SELL (not Food Truck) isn't ready to go.... yeah. It actually makes more sense to just throw in the towel.

#17393 2 years ago

The only thing crazier than blaming the skeptics for not producing RAZA's will be blaming the buyers for "not wanting the game". "Sorry we had to cancel as too many people backed out".

#17394 2 years ago

We need to change Pinside's name to DreamCrusher.com

#17395 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

One burning question I have is what are the Deeproot employees doing from day to day now over the last year? There has to be some kind of tangible progress on something there? Raza is done, and was done months ago. Sure, you can still work on code and whatnot...but that is maybe two people total? Given this amount of time, they should have 2-3 other games darn near where RAZA is by now. There is not enough profit in RAZA to even cover one month of the $750k monthly cash burn that was bragged about previously. How many employees are currently on the roster at DR? I feel like the actual number may actually be a lot less than what we are all thinking it is.

Oh yeah, I haven't gotten the impression that there have been more than 4 employees there in a long time.

#17396 2 years ago

This latest communiqué is not -a- BIG RED FLAG, it is like the MOARF or Mother of ALL RED FLAGS!

One thing I have learned over the years I have been in this hobby, when you hear something that sounds like pinball nirvana- that the planets and stars have all aligned, that the pinball gods have smiled upon us and granted us exactly what we have only ever let ourselves daydream momentarily about because the possibility and plausibility was dubious at best, then take a 10 count, breath deep, in, out, in, out... Ok, now RUN, don't walk, in the opposite direction as fast as you can away from this fever dream and for gods sake, do not even reach for, touch, or otherwise handle your wallet. I have dodged so many bullets with this strategy, and I know a lot of others on here have as well.

To those who have not been so lucky, my sincere condolences.

#17397 2 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

We need to change Pinside's name to DreamCrusher.com

How about RealityCheck.com instead?

#17398 2 years ago
Quoted from andre060:

How about RealityCheck.com instead?

How about OneBornEverySecond.com?

#17399 2 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

The only thing crazier than blaming the skeptics for not producing RAZA's will be blaming the buyers for "not wanting the game". "Sorry we had to cancel as too many people backed out".

Then it really reaches Skit-B/Heighway levels of blaming people for causing a run on the bank as if that was the only reason why those endeavors failed.

If the refunds cause them to fold, they never had a chance to begin

It never made sense to ask for preorder money, especially in a FOMO driven limited sales window with minimal marketing

Someone could make a great post mortem on this company

#17400 2 years ago
Quoted from andre060:

How about RealityCheck.com instead?

That works, but I think mine has more of a ring to it

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