(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 33,574 posts
  • 1,149 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by stubborngamer
  • Topic is favorited by 309 Pinsiders
  • Topic is sticky in its sub-forum

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

pasted_image (resized).png
PXL_20240411_062859517 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
IMG_2583.gif
pasted_image (resized).png
deeprootcapital-401-2024.04.01.pdf (PDF preview)
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png

Topic index (key posts)

360 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 33,574 posts in this topic. You are on page 347 of 672.
14
#17301 3 years ago

Dear RAZA Customer:

We hope all is well. As promised before we want to provide a timely update about where things are now...

The latest we have from the lab is that the UL for the U.S.A. and Canada reports are being prepared. We have passed the SAA requirements and 95% of the CE requirements. While product safety have passed, the emissions and interference tests metrics for a few of the CE countries require additional modifications. We are still being told it will take 4-5 weeks for the final CE certification reports after our fixes pass the tests. The UL reports should be herein in the next few weeks which allow us to move forward on those machines.

We continue to appreciate many of our vendors being able to timely get us quality parts to spec. Unfortunately some vendors are still having issues with global and regional supply chain disruptions. We thank you again for your patience. Despite the past, we don't want to be known as the company that customers can rely on for delays. Our entire team is very cognizant of that and are working hard to be accountable for lead and time lines. As we are coming up on five months now since we opened up orders, when our teams were confident they could delivery by February to March, we definitely are frustrated at our inability to follow through and overcome internal and external obstacles. While some things are outside of our control, we understand the importance of delivering on the promises made. As such, it now doesn't make any sense to make more RAZA machines than orders.

With current lead times on the certifications and parts, there will not be any significant updates in the next 6 weeks. Our goal is to update in mid May and at that time (if games are not imminently ready to start shipping) to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the RAZA purchase, or allow customers to rescind RAZA purchases for a refund with nominal interest.

To those on this mail list that are not RAZA customers but are waiting for surplus machines, we are so sorry that there will no longer be surplus machines. However, if some RAZA customers decide to rescind their contracts, we will offer those first-come, first serve machines to the list for the original prices. Please do not contact us about this yet. We will only be able to provide an idea of availability closer to end of May once purchasers decide if they want to rescind their purchase.

Best!

#17302 3 years ago

No more *surplus* machines!

12
#17303 3 years ago

Vendor issues is a very legit excuse, however...one would have thought given the bravado and timelines given back in december, those parts should have already been in hand and on the line right? *cough*

#17304 3 years ago

Ok, I've said it before, I'll say it again... there is no JPop, its just Weird Al... want proof? Take a look...

5EB92567-9E01-4C2A-9089-984DE77A173A (resized).jpeg5EB92567-9E01-4C2A-9089-984DE77A173A (resized).jpegCDA8239C-B2E8-406B-83CD-205973E08F8B (resized).jpegCDA8239C-B2E8-406B-83CD-205973E08F8B (resized).jpeg
14
#17305 3 years ago

I'm almost not sure if that's a real letter or not. If it is, holy crap. 6 more weeks until the next update, no more surplus machines, and they are offering refunds for those that want it? It's almost as if they don't even want to build RAZA anymore and just skip to food truck.

14
#17306 3 years ago

Is the mid-May date an internal goal or external expectation?

Also, it is priceless that this "update" was issued on April 1.

#17307 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'm almost not sure if that's a real letter or not. If it is, holy crap. 6 more weeks until the next update, no more surplus machines, and they are offering refunds for those that want it? It's almost as if they don't even want to build RAZA anymore and just skip to food truck.

And I will throw out a disclaimer: I don't know if that letter is real or not either.

Some of the language and spelling is far from professional.

On second thought.....seems legit.

#17308 3 years ago

Well at least they’re backing off no refunds.

Most of their issues are understandable.

Hope Food Truck has an easier time now that they’ve learned a few lessons.

#17309 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:Ok, I've said it before, I'll say it again... there is no JPop, its just Weird Al... want proof? Take a look...
[quoted image][quoted image]

And he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you and your meddling kids!

#17310 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

And he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you and your meddling kids!

#17311 3 years ago

If (when) May rolls around and they still haven't shipped any machines, I will give Deeproot a lot of credit if they actually give refunds to people who request them. Coming off of the monumental scam that was Zidware, volunteering to give people their money back is a degree of accountability that I'm stunned they're accepting (or at least pretending to accept, for now). At this point, it's mind boggling that anyone who would accept store credit from this company.

That said, if they *don't* give people their money back, I hope it's the final nail in the coffin for JPop stealing money from the community... who am I kidding, he'll announce a run of Pussycat Bowling for 2022 and get 50 preorders.

#17312 3 years ago

Can someone that has an order in find out what "nominal" means to get your money back?

#17313 3 years ago
Quoted from ufotofu:

If (when) May rolls around and they still haven't shipped any machines, I will give Deeproot a lot of credit if they actually give refunds to people who request them. Coming off of the monumental scam that was Zidware, volunteering to give people their money back is a degree of accountability that I'm stunned they're accepting (or at least pretending to accept, for now). At this point, it's mind boggling that anyone who would accept store credit from this company.
That said, if they *don't* give people their money back, I hope it's the final nail in the coffin for JPop stealing money from the community... who am I kidding, he'll announce a run of Pussycat Bowling for 2022 and get 50 preorders.

You are aware that they are using OTHER PEOPLES MONEY to offer such ! I know who cares as long as its not your own.

#17314 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

You are aware that they are using OTHER PEOPLES MONEY to offer such ! I know who cares as long as its not your own.

I'm actually not clear what you mean? Assuming they held customer deposits, aren't they just promising to return the original deposits upon request?

#17315 3 years ago
Quoted from ufotofu:

I'm actually not clear what you mean? Assuming they held customer deposits, aren't they just promising to return the original deposits upon request?

I believe there are some paid up, some deposits, and some good will. I do not know the details of what they are holding however everything they have promised back and or paid people who did not want to stay in came from the backs of his "investors' not him or his pockets

#17316 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Can someone that has an order in find out what "nominal" means to get your money back?

How DARE you question our Lord and Savior deeproot!

But, in order to brown nose my way to a job with them I'll answer. I believe they intend to pay the CUSTOMER interest on the held deposits if refunded.

Which sounds good on paper but these days what would that be like 1/100th of a cent?

#17317 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

How DARE you question our Lord and Savior deeproot!
But, in order to brown nose my way to a job with them I'll answer. I believe they intend to pay the CUSTOMER interest on the held deposits if refunded.
Which sounds good on paper but these days what would that be like 1/100th of a cent?

Well if you gave JPop $15,000 eight years ago and assuming they’re keeping up with inflation, about $17,000

Somewhere there is a finance guy who could be explaining this

#17318 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Which sounds good on paper but these days what would that be like 1/100th of a cent?

More like a footnote: "*No Actual Cash Value"

#17319 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

More like a footnote: "*No Actual Cash Value"

5 months of interest on $500 in this cash printing age is going to be less than a rounding error.

Still, kudos to The Great JPOP for giving up 2 hours of Starbucks runs to make this interest payback happen.

I really wish Deeproot the best! It's time to Bring Back The John Magic (tm)

#17320 3 years ago

Guys, there is nothing to worry about. Deeproot has a sterling record of following through with paying people refunds when promised.

#17321 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

5 months of interest on $500 in this cash printing age is going to be less than a rounding error.
Still, kudos to The Great JPOP for giving up 2 hours of Starbucks runs to make this interest payback happen.
I really wish Deeproot the best! It's time to Bring Back The John Magic (tm)

Ok ok Ben, now I know this isn't truly how you feel about JPOP ....... There is no fing way he would give up his Starbucks runs, believe me I know

#17322 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I've changed my mind guys! I think JPOP is the best designer ever! So what if he hasn't shipped a real game since the Clinton administration. Have you seen these games? They're SO BEAUTIFUL!
Is deeproot hiring? I'd love to help get this game across the finish line. I'll take any job, perhaps as one of the 5 interns tasked with Starbucks runs for The Great One?
I'd like to ask the community to forgive me for all the negative things I've said about JPOP over the years. It turns out he was right, and I was wrong.
Have a great day and God bless!

April fools.

#17323 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Ok ok Ben, now I know this isn't truly how you feel about JPOP ....... There is no fing way he would give up his Starbucks runs, believe me I know

First of all, I would consider this to be giving coffee advice without a barista license, so expect a call from my lawyer.

Secondly, the drive through line of Starbucks is where Pinnovation(tm) happens! Rumor has it the TOM trunk was originally sketched on a Starbucks napkin during his 3rd run of the day back in 1994.

#17324 3 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

And I will throw out a disclaimer: I don't know if that letter is real or not either.
Some of the language and spelling is far from professional.
On second thought.....seems legit.

The letter has been confirmed in the pre-order thread.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/raza-pre-order-club/page/20#post-6215272

12
#17325 3 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

there will not be any significant updates in the next 6 weeks

Here I thought it was April Fools day, but it really is Groundhog Day, seems this just keeps repeating and repeating and repeating

#17326 3 years ago

I am confused by the comment that they won't make the extra machines. Their original statements suggested that they would, in essence, round up the number. This provided some economies of scale and, if the game proves to be successful, greater profit, especially considering the pricing they provided was higher than pre-order sales. I find it odd that a supplier could provide 120 units but not 150 of a component. It seems more likely the reason is one of two things. Either they don't anticipate any follow-up demand for the game or their profit model is way off and they just want to get this behind them and start at square one.

Where this gets dicey is in the area of support. If someone has a problem with the playfield or a ramp cracks, are they SOL? What if a game gets damaged in shipping? is that it? Heck, even in the assembly process, stuff gets damaged. They have to be ordering some extras, don't they?

#17327 3 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I find it odd that a supplier could provide 120 units but not 150 of a component.

This is definitely a thing. Since there is such a shortage of machined components still, lots of suppliers are rationing their orders

#17328 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'm almost not sure if that's a real letter or not. If it is, holy crap. 6 more weeks until the next update, no more surplus machines, and they are offering refunds for those that want it? It's almost as if they don't even want to build RAZA anymore and just skip to food truck.

That is my thoughts exactly. This is a letter with a message of defeat. It’s tone sounds like We’re just going to minimize what’s due and turn out what’s owed then peace out we’re done. Far from the message years ago of Were going to innovate the industry.

#17329 3 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I am confused by the comment that they won't make the extra machines. Their original statements suggested that they would, in essence, round up the number. This provided some economies of scale and, if the game proves to be successful, greater profit, especially considering the pricing they provided was higher than pre-order sales. I find it odd that a supplier could provide 120 units but not 150 of a component. It seems more likely the reason is one of two things. Either they don't anticipate any follow-up demand for the game or their profit model is way off and they just want to get this behind them and start at square one.
Where this gets dicey is in the area of support. If someone has a problem with the playfield or a ramp cracks, are they SOL? What if a game gets damaged in shipping? is that it? Heck, even in the assembly process, stuff gets damaged. They have to be ordering some extras, don't they?

profit model? They were never making $ on these machines, I would say it was always a loss. Robert essentially stated that from the get-go in December, that the price after pre-order was more in line of actual costs or something like that I think? How can you even have a model when you don't have all the parts ordered/in or the certifications done.. they set a price w/out calculating out the true costs, in true pre-order fashion.

Spot on about extra parts though. I don't get the decision not to make extra games now. But if they have almost zero extra parts on hand for support... yyyeah... huh. If owners finally get their games, they may not want to play them much. But it seems a number of them bought based on some pretty art anyway, so maybe they will be OK with having a Magic Girl-esque art piece at fraction of the cost of a MG.

Regarding comments earlier about manufacturing delays being a valid excuse.. were things THAT different in December? That was still a reality then as much as now, I believe? And that's when they estimated their build timeframe... so there's pretty much no excuse there.

Fair tone on the letter though, nothing too surprising except the possibility of refunds. If they still weren't gunning for more titles and have $ to pursue them, I wouldnt' expect them to care much about further demolishing their reputation so that's good for anyone looking to get a future game from DR. ...for now.

#17330 3 years ago

Chances this update is a stealth precursor to announcement of Deeproot Bee Gees???

#17331 3 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

profit model? They were never making $ on these machines, I would say it was always a loss. Robert essentially stated that from the get-go in December, twere things THAT different in December? That was still a reality then as much as now, I believe? And that's when they estimated their build timeframe... so there's pretty much no excuse there.
Fair tone on the letter though, nothing too surprising except the possibility of refunds. If they still weren't gunning for more titles and have $ to pursue them, I wouldnt' expect them to care much about further demolishing their reputation so that's good for anyone looking to get a future game from DR. ...for now.

I'm not sure really. Keep in mind that in the US there was no issue until Feb. While certain countries were getting hit hard, it would really depend on where the vendors for said parts were located.

#17332 3 years ago

Well... You know what they say... "Mo orders, Mo problems."

#17333 3 years ago

Wow what a totally surprising update. Couldn’t have seen that coming.

#17334 3 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I'm not sure really. Keep in mind that in the US there was no issue until Feb. While certain countries were getting hit hard, it would really depend on where the vendors for said parts were located.

Ah, OK - wasn't aware of that. All right, they can play that card I guess.

Well 6 more weeks to maybe an update now. How many more circles can we go in during that time.. probably quite a few lol. I am noting that they were originally saying that they could tool up and build some parts of the machine since most parts were in.. I think months ago? So when the last 5% *finally* come in, just a matter of slapping a few pieces together, playtesting, and games should be going out the door. I would expect phone calls starting in June about customization and a handful of games in homes in July or August if that is true, and their latest estimate is accurate. Probably more like Sept or later with other unforeseen things. I'd put $ on before end of 2021 at least.

Interesting what they are not saying -- anything like "while we can't finish building these games right now, the time is not going to waste. We are rapidly finishing up our second title prototype" or "We have been spending a lot of time developing DLC for RAZA and/or updating code that will ship with the game"

#17335 3 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

This is definitely a thing. Since there is such a shortage of machined components still, lots of suppliers are rationing their orders

I understand but I'm not sure it is applicable in this case. Remember these are very small numbers. Stern orders 20,000 flipper buttons, JJP orders 5000 and Deeproot wants 300 instead of 250? Don't think it is worth the vendors time to break that order up.

As far as the game specific things, the setup time is so significant that the vendor wants to blast as many as possible. I doubt the ramp manufacturer says 'let's setup all the molds and stop at 120 units so I can make 5000 for Stern' It is much more efficient to just make the extra 20-30 units. At one point in my career I worked for a company that did screen printing (NFL, Disney sort of stuff). Once they had the screens setup, they blasted as much as possible. Even though setup costs were passed through, they would much prefer to print. Maybe printing playfields and plastics is different but given the low numbers, I'd think they would have no issue running an additional 20 units. But who knows, I'm not bright enough to figure out a lot of this.

#17336 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Lemme know when I've stolen a million bucks from the community.
My "mediocre" game (granted, it ain't the best) launched Spooky who now employ 30 people and make 1K games per year.
I rip on JPOP (the fraud hack) because I've accomplished what he was too busy slurpling Starbucks to do - roll up my sleeves and get a game DONE.

08EC05EE-EEE0-4D34-9CF6-D112F52ABEBF.gif08EC05EE-EEE0-4D34-9CF6-D112F52ABEBF.gif
#17337 3 years ago

Honestly I just feel for DR. Hey at least they were upfront. Even RM must be eating a big piece of humble pie here. What I just do not understand is why there is not a single truth teller in there. You know, the guy who says “Hey at Stern/AP/JJP/Williams the time to go from complete design to shipping product is a minimum 12 months”. Where is that guy ? It just seems like even at this late stage they remain completely in the dark about what it takes to build and ship a device. All of us know that Fall and likely end of the year is more realistic. Why can’t they just say it ?

#17338 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Honestly I just feel for DR. Hey at least they were upfront. Even RM must be eating a big piece of humble pie here. What I just do not understand is why there is not a single truth teller in there. You know, the guy who says “Hey at Stern/AP/JJP/Williams the time to go from complete design to shipping product is a minimum 12 months”. Where is that guy ? It just seems like even at this late stage they remain completely in the dark about what it takes to build and ship a device. All of us know that Fall and likely end of the year is more realistic. Why can’t they just say it ?

I'm sure Jpop has been telling RM that for months, RM just won't listen! ..oh wait, no probably not. It's hard to know what you don't know I guess.. just have to go thru the motions 1 time? Seems like they just didn't do enough homework.

Another interesting thing about the choice to drop the 'round-off' games -- they supposedly had 95% of the parts in, at quantities presumably that would have been enough for the round-offs. Why cancel those extra ones when nearly all parts are in? Maybe it does leave a bit of overstock at least? I sure hope they ordered extra parts of the one-off stuff.

#17339 3 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I understand but I'm not sure it is applicable in this case. Remember these are very small numbers. Stern orders 20,000 flipper buttons, JJP orders 5000 and Deeproot wants 300 instead of 250? Don't think it is worth the vendors time to break that order up.
As far as the game specific things, the setup time is so significant that the vendor wants to blast as many as possible. I doubt the ramp manufacturer says 'let's setup all the molds and stop at 120 units so I can make 5000 for Stern' It is much more efficient to just make the extra 20-30 units. At one point in my career I worked for a company that did screen printing (NFL, Disney sort of stuff). Once they had the screens setup, they blasted as much as possible. Even though setup costs were passed through, they would much prefer to print. Maybe printing playfields and plastics is different but given the low numbers, I'd think they would have no issue running an additional 20 units. But who knows, I'm not bright enough to figure out a lot of this.

Fair point - who knows what the real story is!

#17340 3 years ago

Speaking of round off they will need a few extra games anyway for the ones that are damaged/destroyed in shipping.

It's often faster to build a new game than to fix a bad one.

#17341 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

It's often faster to build a new game than to fix a bad one.

This is probably a misrepresentation of Deeproot's priorities.

#17342 3 years ago
Quoted from RobF:

This is probably a misrepresentation of Deeproot's priorities.

No need for extras. If your game arrives damaged, Jpop will fly out to rebuild it. He'll need to crash in your basement for 8 months and you'll be responsible for supplying the starbucks. During this time you will also learn the Deephistory of the game, and Jpop will build 2 foamcore 'prototypes' alongside your Raza.

#17343 3 years ago

If I didn't know any better, I'd think deeproot is a dumpster fire of a company with a CEO who has zero fucking clue what he's doing.

#17344 3 years ago

There is no need for extra machines. If you ordered a PinPod, damage is not possible (except when you need to get through a doorway). If you didn't order a PinPod, you should have ordered a PinPod (unless you need to get it through a doorway).

#17345 3 years ago
Quoted from stevevt:

There is no need for extra machines. If you ordered a PinPod, damage is not possible (except when you need to get through a doorway). If you didn't order a PinPod, you should have ordered a PinPod (unless you need to get it through a doorway).

Right because Pinpod can protect your BEAUTIFUL game against the shock damage of drops.

It'll be just like how Superman can catch Lois Lane and she doesn't die from the sudden deceleration right?

#17346 3 years ago
Quoted from stevevt:

There is no need for extra machines. If you ordered a PinPod, damage is not possible (except when you need to get through a doorway). If you didn't order a PinPod, you should have ordered a PinPod (unless you need to get it through a doorway).

PinPod ships with DLC to get your through the door. $14.99

#17347 3 years ago

In all candidness, I'm starting to feel bad for RM amidst all this failure. I can get very stressed and down over far smaller things, and can only imagine how I'd feel right now if I were in his position.

#17348 3 years ago

JPop, a true pinball visionary.... or what drinking Starbucks since 1992 can do to your eyes... (trigger warning!)

[image removed]

#17349 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

.... or what drinking Starbucks since 1992 can do to your eyes...

jpop.gifjpop.gif

#17350 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

JPop, a true pinball visionary.... or what drinking Starbucks since 1992 can do to your eyes... (trigger warning!)

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 17.99
$ 1.29
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Daddio's 3D Printed Mods
 
From: $ 649.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
 
There are 33,574 posts in this topic. You are on page 347 of 672.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/347?hl=parsonsaj and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.