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Quoted from BMore-Pinball:
Just can't jump on this ship, as a business owner, I would never wish for another person's business to fail

Exactly. As a victim of Jpop and his band of inadequates with Zidware, I was pretty angry. But that was understood in taking that chance.

The hatred and vitriol from individuals in this thread is disturbing.
People that knew nothing of the Zidware debacle ganging in like today's street rioters, hoping to see DeepRoot fail.

I had long written off my $9500 loss given to Zidware. It was gone. Lawsuits would be frivolous and prolong the agony.

Robert comes in, offers the Zidware group some compensation. Succeed or not, I'm in the same boat.
If DeepRoot makes a single pin, great! If they don't, C'est la vie baby.

Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad.

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:
And don't forget the outfit in charge of all this pinball coding is turner logic, the group that makes Robert's websites but has zero prior experience with pinball.

Well, in all fairness, they did develop his financial software as well.

From https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-new-home-new-hires-5-days-deeproot-exclusive-follow-interview:

RM: Turner Logic is providing most of the software. They designed our financial system. Like everything else with the project, nearly all of the innovations and designs are my own. In the case of software, Turner Logic has put their own spin on it for implementation.

Quoted from WJxxxx:
Why would the creator of the rules have to be the one who codes it?

Because that’s how every pin company has done it. Sure, sometimes the designer weighs in with what they think the rules should be - and that’s great collaboration between the creative forces. I don’t think anyone has ever had someone totally independent of design/coding create the rules. I think those propping up Bowden as the next Lyman or Keefer might want to keep their expectations in check..writing is one thing, executing the final product is another.

Quoted from Rarehero:
Because that’s how every pin company has done it. Sure, sometimes the designer weighs in with what they think the rules should be - and that’s great collaboration between the creative forces. I don’t think anyone has ever had someone totally independent of design/coding create the rules. I think those propping up Bowden as the next Lyman or Keefer might want to keep their expectations in check..writing is one thing, executing the final product is another.

I think you are making a mountain out of molehill here. Coders just being coders isn't that foreign of a concept. Who the architect of the game design is including rules is often not the same person as the person who implements the ideas in software.

Software is the implementation - not the art itself. And now with virtually unlimited resources, you don't need the elegance the old timers needed.

Quoted from flynnibus:
I think you are making a mountain out of molehill here. Coders just being coders isn't that foreign of a concept. Who the architect of the game design is including rules is often not the same person as the person who implements the ideas in software.
Software is the implementation - not the art itself. And now with virtually unlimited resources, you don't need the elegance the old timers needed.

Keith and company hasve shown that model can work for sure.

dont be sheeple, especially to a narcissist

Quoted from toyotaboy:
dont be sheeple, especially to a narcissist

Which narcissist?

A) Robert
B) JPop
C) Chris
D) All above

Quoted from russdx:
Wish we got a $1400 cheque in the UK

I wish I got a $1400 check in the US. I'm not getting a penny because I just made over $80 last year. I would have gotten all of it had they used MY TAXABLE INCOME and not what I made. I paid out $20k+ to the feds and state and made roughly $60 for me. I got to pay my neighbor their money!

We have this argument all the time in my industry (slots) to build great games the coder needs to be creative, some coders are not and just don't make as fun games as the flow / creativeness (even if told exactly what to do) is just not there. Some one who has been coding washing machine firmware for past 10 years wont make you a good game. The person needs to be creative and want to make games for it to turn out / feel right. Some people just cant do it. All these games are about flow and timing and lamp shows. That's my opinion any way and iv seen it first hand, just because you can code does not mean you can code games to great standard. You need the right type of person.

John has lost his MOJO when it comes to game design. A lot of his renditions in paper and foam have reused items from previous games and many have made comments to this fact. Even if you want to use something from another game, you have to repackage it so it doesn't look like it was just moved from one machine and placed into another. The spinning discs with bumpers is the lamp from TOTAN and there are other things. He really should have brought in other designers to collaborate with to move his designs forward. That is what diversity is a plus and like minded is a negative. When you're a one person show, its hard to come up with stuff to top yourself or be unique again.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
Exactly. As a victim of Jpop and his band of inadequates with Zidware, I was pretty angry. But that was understood in taking that chance.
The hatred and vitriol from individuals in this thread is disturbing.
People that knew nothing of the Zidware debacle ganging in like today's street rioters, hoping to see DeepRoot fail.
I had long written off my $9500 loss given to Zidware. It was gone. Lawsuits would be frivolous and prolong the agony.
Robert comes in, offers the Zidware group some compensation. Succeed or not, I'm in the same boat.
If DeepRoot makes a single pin, great! If they don't, C'est la vie baby.
Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad.

Please consider that the lawsuit was filed long before Deeproot came along and actually was Deeproots' motivation to make the Goodwill offering. Deeproot wanted to avoid future litigation with us.

Also should be mentioned that Deeproot has picked and chosen winners and loser in the Goodwill offering. A bunch of little fish were offered compensation for PR reasons. But guys like Cointaker and several other people and vendors were told to piss off. The litigation group was also treated badly and afterward Deeproot even posted a shitty little note about it on their webpage. It's been deleted along with 90% of the Deeproot content and he even named me personally simply out of spite. Completely unnecessary, unprofessional and childish behavior for a lawyer.

And for you to have insinuated earlier that Ben Heck has any responsibility, financial or otherwise for Zidware is repeating a conspiracy fabricated by one of Ben's enemies.

Ben got out of Zidware because (edit) he wanted to make his own game without the "master teacher" John involved.
He had no idea how Jpop was cooking the books nor what the future held. Every check I wrote was written to Zidware and no others.

Do you remember when I flew back to Chicago to confront Jpop on behalf of all of us? That was when things were just beginning to unravel for Zidware and Ben was long gone by the time I got there.

Maybe we should blame Zombie Yetti for some responsibility or the dozens of Jpop volunteers that worked for him. Of course not and this is just a red herring planted by you know who.

Ugh, I hate all of the hard feelings here especially with you.

Quoted from russdx:
We have this argument all the time in my industry (slots) to build great games the coder needs to be creative, some coders are not and just don't make as fun games as the flow / creativeness (even if told exactly what to do) is just not there. Some one who has been coding washing machine firmware for past 10 years wont make you a good game. The person needs to be creative and want to make games for it to turn out / feel right. Some people just cant do it. All these games are about flow and timing and lamp shows. That's my opinion any way and iv seen it first hand, just because you can code does not mean you can code games to great standard. You need the right type of person.

Absolutely agree here. And sure the coder doesn’t have to be the rules designer. But if they are separate people it makes for one helluva convoluted process. The rules of a game are a fairly static flowchart. The use of lighting and sound and scoring and display to implement that rule set requires artistic as well as technical talent. Otherwise you just get an EM in your $10K machine.

Quoted from Mr68:
Ugh, I hate all of the hard feelings here especially with you.

I certainly do remember your support and it was greatly appreciated. I nearly joined in on the lawsuit but couldn't bear spending more money, waiting more time and likely having the same outcome.
I agree with you totally about the "large fish" pretty much getting nothing. Just yesterday I re-read Zombie Yetti's first post in the train wreck Zidware thread where he was trying to find out what might be going on. Very sad times. John had pretty much dropped off the screen at that point and no one could get any feedback from him.

I don't have hard feelings for what is happening here. I just find the tone of it all a very disturbing trend.
It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot. They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos. That's where I disagree with you Levi on what is happening here. It really has little to do with stop the steal. Like the Capital rioters, most of the people perpetrating that were drinking the cool aid and too blind to see what the end result would be.

Quoted from pbwizard14:
Who cares that I paid out $20k+ to the feds and state and made roughly $60 for me.

Nobody in this thread

Quoted from Fulltilt:
I certainly do remember your support and it was greatly appreciated. I nearly joined in on the lawsuit but couldn't bear spending more money, waiting more time and likely having the same outcome.
I agree with you totally about the "large fish" pretty much getting nothing. Just yesterday I re-read Zombie Yetti's first post in the train wreck Zidware thread where he was trying to find out what might be going on. Very sad times. John had pretty much dropped off the screen at that point and no one could get any feedback from him.
I don't have hard feelings for what is happening here. I just find the tone of it all a very disturbing trend.
It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot. They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos. That's where I disagree with you Levi on what is happening here. It really has little to do with stop the steal. Like the Capital rioters, most of the people perpetrating that were drinking the cool aid and too blind to see what the end result would be.

When it was our little pile on it was fun but all these interlopers are making me question my allegiance!

I don't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member!

The source of all Deeproot’s problems are JPOP.

1. Mistook foam board for genius talent.

2. Effectively bought out Zidware when it carried massive ill will and debt, rather than walk away - arrogance on RM part that he can fix him

3. Did not analyze why he failed and ran what looks like the same show in Texas as in Chicago.

4. Took his designs as brilliance not realizing that almost all of them (the ones that got built) underperformed in the market.

5. Did not hire the knowledgeable technical talent needed to contain his efforts and turn them into actual shipping machines.

6. Did not see that his multitude of unlicensed themes do not have the pre-existing assets to get the job done and interest to attract a wide audience

7. Did not recognize his naysayers were going to follow him wherever he went - there would be no redemption here, too much bad blood over a decade.

8. Brought the same arrogance and lack of perspective he had and doubled down - that would never be a very good bet in Vegas. You have to have the dreamer and then someone connected to reality.

9. Brought in sensible designers who actually get shit done but never gave them the support they needed to get shit done given the focus on JPOP as their lead.

Imagine for one moment if you had thrown those dollars at talent actually proven to get things to the finish line. It would not ensure success, but give you a helluva better chance than you had with JPOP. They might have at least been able to tell you when the effort was going off the rails. With JPOP the ship was going where it was going with the captain stuck in his cabin playing with foam board all day long. American Pinball realized this quickly and tossed him overboard. They survived. The fate of Deeproot remains very much unknown because there was never a reality person there willing/able to do the same

Quoted from Eightball88:
I googled it. “Viva la raza” seems like an odd thing for everybody to be posting here, but whatever. Maybe this thread is destined to be the next “Lionman!”

RAZA: Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure. I believe there's supposed to be a game coming out.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
I nearly joined in on the lawsuit but couldn't bear spending more money, waiting more time and likely having the same outcome.

I hear ya on that. Things were moving fast back then and we had a very loud and egotistical disruptor within our ranks confusing everything. And he is still very confused.

Fact is our attorney is working on a contingency basis. If he doesn't collect for us, he doesn't get paid. It's Deeproot bleeding the hourly fees, not us.

Please don't tell Mr. Know-it-all. I've enjoyed watching him twist in the wind over this.

I didn't leave because things smelled fishy, I left because I wanted to make my own game. Would have never happened with "master teacher" John involved.

RE Pooky's list above. DR had 3 real designers Nordman Ousler and Norris. They could have easily made a new game in 2 years - hell Stern made AIQ in 6 months! But no, they chose to polish the turd of RAZA.

Maybe Robert figured out John is a hack by now, doesn't change the fact that he built the company around him at the start. A lot of stupid companies think you just need a Steve Jobs because they don't understand engineering. The true magic of Apple was having a Steve Wozniak.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot.

Holding people accountable for their actions isn't necessarily "pile on"...and one didn't have to be a customer of Zidware or Deeproot to have an opinion on the ongoing story. Even if we didn't buy a game, we've seen our friends lose time, money, and health over this situation. This is a hobby where community and friendship is important...those who are holding up a mirror to the truth are often doing so because the don't like seeing their friends hurt...no one owes Jpop or DR silence while they tinker. At the end of the day I think we all want them to either fulfill their promises, or go away. It's the limbo that hurts everyone, and it's a topic worth discussing....hence, this thread & its activity.

Quoted from benheck:
I didn't leave because things smelled fishy, I left because I wanted to make my own game. Would have never happened with "master teacher" John involved.

My sincere apology Ben. I will correct my comment to reflect that.

"Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad."

This says a ton about the owner!

Quoted from wcbrandes:
Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad.
This says a ton about the owner!

It also means it's a day ending in "y" haha

Speaking of coders, remember when RM said this about the coder for magic girl?

TWIP: Has pinsider Applejuice been paid in full for his work with Zidware? Is he owed a Magic Girl game?

dr: We have not heard from Applejuice. According to Zidware records that we have seen, Applejuice was paid over $100k, and has been in material breach of several terms of his agreement with Zidware for some time.

TWIP: In breach of what terms of his agreement with Zidware?

dr: At this point it is up to Zidware to enforce its own contract with this vendor. We will address this situation in the appropriate manner if this vendor continues to be defamatory or Zidware’s contractual rights are transferred to us.

IIRC Applejuice said this was false.

Quoted from Mr68:
My sincere apology Ben. I will correct my comment to reflect that.

Oh no worries! Seriously, we probably only visited each others shops like 10 times total.

Back then the only red flags were how slowly John worked (it would make a sloth blush) and why he rented so much space just to design in. Of course looking back it makes sense, but only with the context of the failures.

To Rare's point we just want to see a conclusion. Either people get their RAZA or John is exiled forever and stops destroying wealth in this hobby.

Quoted from benheck:
Either people get their RAZA or John is exiled forever and stops destroying wealth in this hobby.

It can't be both?

I think either, both, and neither are all on the table.

Quoted from wcbrandes:
"Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad."

This says a ton about the owner!

Really, when I do see this attitude here, it has something to something involving JPop and no one else. And I can understand, considering the amount of promises that have been made and money that's been put up without anything to show for it on the part of Mr. Popadiuk over many years.
I saw some of the same pitchforks here early on with American Pinball and Houdini, only because that game had conceptual origins in JPop pinball vaporware into which people sunk money with nothing to show for it.

Normally, nobody with even a fleeting interest in pinball should want failure for any pinball maker.
My personal investment in any JPop projects has been limited to tokens in the odd ToM location here and there, but would like to see RAZA or anything he manages to complete and sell as much as anyone. If I'm not mistaken, anything Deeproot did ever make and bring to market would be the first commercially sold pinball made in my native state of Texas.

Quoted from jfre81:
Really, when I do see this attitude here, it has something to something involving JPop and no one else. And I can understand, considering the amount of promises that have been made and money that's been put up without anything to show for it on the part of Mr. Popadiuk over many years.
I saw some of the same pitchforks here early on with American Pinball and Houdini, only because that game had conceptual origins in JPop pinball vaporware into which people sunk money with nothing to show for it.
Normally, nobody with even a fleeting interest in pinball should want failure for any pinball maker.
My personal investment in any JPop projects has been limited to tokens in the odd ToM location here and there, but would like to see RAZA or anything he manages to complete and sell as much as anyone. If I'm not mistaken, anything Deeproot did ever make and bring to market would be the first commercially sold pinball made in my native state of Texas.

Yes, yes, and yes. There may well be equal animosity for Andrew Heighway (and he at least put games out). But you don’t see that animosity being applied so much to Pinball Brothers despite having inherited what he put forth. It is indeed the intimate involvement of JPOP in this ongoing crapfest that gets people piling on. And as I said above for RM not to realize this was what was going to happen when he took 8 years to make a machine that had already had deposits 10 years ago, was folly. Want to see Deeproot fail - I doubt that characterizes most here. Want to see JPOP stop having wasted resources tossed at him for unimpressive to no output whatsoever - absolutely.

Quoted from wcbrandes:
"Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad."

This says a ton about the owner!

Really don't want them to fail. Disappointing to see where things are and how they got here, that's all.

Quoted from pookycade:
Yes, yes, and yes. There may well be equal animosity for Andrew Heighway (and he at least put games out). But you don’t see that animosity being applied so much to Pinball Brothers despite having inherited what he put forth. It is indeed the intimate involvement of JPOP in this ongoing crapfest that gets people piling on. And as I said above for RM not to realize this was what was going to happen when he took 8 years to make a machine that had already had deposits 10 years ago, was folly. Want to see Deeproot fail - I doubt that characterizes most here. Want to see JPOP stop having wasted resources tossed at him for unimpressive to no output whatsoever - absolutely.

Funny thing is, I think JPop has it uniquely out for him because people still believe in him because he did make some excellent games - but that was with the help of the staff that Williams was able to afford him. That bit Steve Ritchie said about "no one can make a great pinball alone" comes to mind and, if my memory serves, he made that statement in some way or another about Mr. Popadiuk.

It still says something that the three games of the classic JPop trilogy still are in the top 33 as of this writing (with CV being #33) and that's with the amazing volume of pinball that's been produced in the last few years, and new games tend to have inflated places in the upper rankings during their honeymoon stages.

I still think CV is worth a CGC remake, as it came out during a bad time in the arcade scene and never got a fair shake on location. Still dig the DMD embedded under the glass, actually being a component of the visuals on the playfield itself.

Quoted from pookycade:
But you don’t see that animosity being applied so much to Pinball Brothers despite having inherited what he put forth.

Pinball Brothers didn’t talk mad trash about their competition, didn’t make extraordinary claims about their games, and has started to ship some games (game?) since officially emerging on the scene a few months ago.

The money/games they morally owe to Heighway Alien buyers is a black eye, but there’s so much less to lambast them for relatively speaking.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
I certainly do remember your support and it was greatly appreciated. I nearly joined in on the lawsuit but couldn't bear spending more money, waiting more time and likely having the same outcome.
I agree with you totally about the "large fish" pretty much getting nothing. Just yesterday I re-read Zombie Yetti's first post in the train wreck Zidware thread where he was trying to find out what might be going on. Very sad times. John had pretty much dropped off the screen at that point and no one could get any feedback from him.
I don't have hard feelings for what is happening here. I just find the tone of it all a very disturbing trend.
It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot. They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos. That's where I disagree with you Levi on what is happening here. It really has little to do with stop the steal. Like the Capital rioters, most of the people perpetrating that were drinking the cool aid and too blind to see what the end result would be.

“They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos.” Lol! Neither of those words are even relevant to what’s going on here. Chaos?

This is a lot of jaded hobbyists having fun watching this train wreck.

No one in this thread will be responsible if Deep Root fails. Not unless RM is lurking.

Quoted from russdx:
We have this argument all the time in my industry (slots) to build great games the coder needs to be creative, some coders are not and just don't make as fun games as the flow / creativeness (even if told exactly what to do) is just not there. Some one who has been coding washing machine firmware for past 10 years wont make you a good game. The person needs to be creative and want to make games for it to turn out / feel right. Some people just cant do it. All these games are about flow and timing and lamp shows. That's my opinion any way and iv seen it first hand, just because you can code does not mean you can code games to great standard. You need the right type of person.

Quoted from pookycade:
Absolutely agree here. And sure the coder doesn’t have to be the rules designer. But if they are separate people it makes for one helluva convoluted process. The rules of a game are a fairly static flowchart. The use of lighting and sound and scoring and display to implement that rule set requires artistic as well as technical talent. Otherwise you just get an EM in your $10K machine.

Well, and this relates to people wearing more than one hat on the job, or to having more than one set of skills. You can look at people like Kojima or Iwata-san in the video gaming industry, to see that it's possible for creatives to serve in executive roles, and for skilled programmers to serve in leadership and creative design roles as well. Iwata-san got his start by helping to create the Kirby video game series. He was a very skilled coder, and a good leader. He ended up becoming president of Nintendo during some of it's most successful years. But if Nintendo had stuck with a mentality that, "Coders code, designers design, and executives lead." Then none of that would have been possible.

Quoted from Mr68:
I hear ya on that. Things were moving fast back then and we had a very loud and egotistical disruptor within our ranks confusing everything. And he is still very confused.

Hmm, Who might this be? Does he “come from the land of the ice -or- snow?” Is he a Viking? Or just smell like one?

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
Keith and company hasve shown that model can work for sure.

I was going to cite Elwin's crew - but I didn't know for sure if he doesn't contribute to coding.. fairly certain he doesn't, but didn't need to cite it

Quoted from pookycade:
Absolutely agree here. And sure the coder doesn’t have to be the rules designer. But if they are separate people it makes for one helluva convoluted process. The rules of a game are a fairly static flowchart. The use of lighting and sound and scoring and display to implement that rule set requires artistic as well as technical talent. Otherwise you just get an EM in your $10K machine.

And things like lightshows and other direction have been abstracted away from coding to WYSIWYG type tools and scripting. You can write requirements (or simply communicate them) and someone else implements it. That's why they play test the crap out of these things and why people in the industry tell you those things come last because those choreography things are things they like to see how they work physically.. not simply because 'guy #23 had a great idea and put it in code'. Those shows are not coming because of great code - they are coming from great ideas.

Sure it's easier when your coder is the designer - one brain doesn't have problems communicating to other brains. But that's not even the case in most medium sized projects simply due to the size of the task and responsibilities.

Bringing in the outside pinball talent (Bowen, Elwin, Bowden, etc) is possible and common now because they don't HAVE to be rock star coders to do their job.

Obviously the more everyone in the process understands the end product the easier it is for each contributor to play a consultive and arbiter role.. but it's not a requirement to hire that nor is it necessarily holding teams back.

Quoted from TreyBo69:
Pinball Brothers didn’t talk mad trash about their competition, didn’t make extraordinary claims about their games, and has started to ship some games (game?) since officially emerging on the scene a few months ago.
The money/games they morally owe to Heighway Alien buyers is a black eye, but there’s so much less to lambast them for relatively speaking.

Isn't Pinball Brothers still basically the same outfit that ripped people off under Heighway? I thought they were investors that took over way before people got screwed. One person trash talking and making "extraordinary" claims is not worse than ripping people off in the tune of thousands in my book. As long as you can produce a desirable game is all that matters in the end I guess.

Quoted from pookycade:
The source of all Deeproot’s problems are JPOP.

You just listed 10 decisions Robert owns - not John.

Quoted from jawjaw:
Isn't Pinball Brothers still basically the same outfit that ripped people off under Heighway? I thought they were investors that took over way before people got screwed. One person trash talking and making "extraordinary" claims is not worse than ripping people off in the tune of thousands in my book. As long as you can produce a desirable game is all that matters in the end I guess.

To be clear, I said they both had moral responsibilities to address.

I don’t have a hard number on how much was lost to Zidware vs Heighway, but I’d love it if someone could make a good estimate

And again, PB is shipping stuff in a relatively timely fashion. That does matter. That’s the whole fudging point of being a pinball maker.

Quoted from DakotaMike:
Well, and this relates to people wearing more than one hat on the job, or to having more than one set of skills. You can look at people like Kojima or Iwata-san in the video gaming industry, to see that it's possible for creatives to serve in executive roles, and for skilled programmers to serve in leadership and creative design roles as well. Iwata-san got his start by helping to create the Kirby video game series. He was a very skilled coder, and a good leader. He ended up becoming president of Nintendo during some of it's most successful years. But if Nintendo had stuck with a mentality that, "Coders code, designers design, and executives lead." Then none of that would have been possible.

It's not enough to have an idea. It's to have an idea with some friends who can execute the elements of that idea that you cannot execute yourself.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
Exactly. As a victim of Jpop and his band of inadequates with Zidware, I was pretty angry. But that was understood in taking that chance.
The hatred and vitriol from individuals in this thread is disturbing.
People that knew nothing of the Zidware debacle ganging in like today's street rioters, hoping to see DeepRoot fail.
I had long written off my $9500 loss given to Zidware. It was gone. Lawsuits would be frivolous and prolong the agony.
Robert comes in, offers the Zidware group some compensation. Succeed or not, I'm in the same boat.
If DeepRoot makes a single pin, great! If they don't, C'est la vie baby.
Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad.

The parking lot was filled with cars today.

And my conversation with the attorney was very positive.

It’ll be a good day when we are made whole again soon!

I’ll be especially happy for you Fulltilt. You’ve maintained a great attitude

Quoted from iceman44:
I’ll be especially happy for you Fulltilt. You’ve maintained a great attitude

Thanks Ice! Tequila baby.. tequila.

Quoted from iceman44:
The parking lot was filled with cars today.
And my conversation with the attorney was very positive.
It’ll be a good day when we are made whole again soon!
I’ll be especially happy for you Fulltilt. You’ve maintained a great attitude

Who knows? Maybe there's a chance. Hope the old Zidware people get.... Something!

Quoted from benheck:
Who knows? Maybe there's a chance. Hope the old Zidware people get.... Something!

"Something" is good Ben. Will the game suck? Who knows, my buddy thinks it's really good.

I feel you don't quite value your business quite the same when it's OPM, other people's money, versus your own.

Maybe he does a bit more now after having had his ass handed to him.

Spooky, built it and did it on their own, as far as i know. Which is very impressive! When it's your $$$ and ass on the line you can't afford to make mistakes.

DR, Jpop, others didn't respect OPM.

But like I said, Jpop is FAR in the background today other than getting RAZA out the door.

We shall see soon enough.

Quoted from iceman44:
"Something" is good Ben. Will the game suck? Who knows, my buddy thinks it's really good.
I feel you don't quite value your business quite the same when it's OPM, other people's money, versus your own.
Maybe he does a bit more now after having had his ass handed to him.
Spooky, built it and did it on their own, as far as i know. Which is very impressive! When it's your $$$ and ass on the line you can't afford to make mistakes.
DR, Jpop, others didn't respect OPM.
But like I said, Jpop is FAR in the background today other than getting RAZA out the door.
We shall see soon enough.

I think if RM showed some humility and Jpop the door, the entire community would support DR. Much of this drama would be over.

Will that happen?

Quoted from hank527:
I think if RM showed some humility and Jpop the door, the entire community would support DR. Much of this drama would be over.
Will that happen?

Raza sales have pretty much proved no love for jPop so wouldn’t be a bad move.

Quoted from iceman44:
We shall see soon enough.

We've been shown a lot so far:

Original deadlines blown by years.
Botched launch after much hype and expense.
A lame FOMO sales window of 3 weeks which resulted in crap sales.
Production date delayed, delayed again and then no more new dates given.
Radio silence adopted as a strategy at this late stage, asking customers for a code of silence, which is always the kiss of death.

Not sure why there's any expectation that all of a sudden everything will be different.

Quoted from TreyBo69:
To be clear, I said they both had moral responsibilities to address.
I don’t have a hard number on how much was lost to Zidware vs Heighway, but I’d love it if someone could make a good estimate
And again, PB is shipping stuff in a relatively timely fashion. That does matter. That’s the whole fudging point of being a pinball maker.

DR had two games at Houston show several years ago plus more recent prototypes that people played. PB has what, one game they shipped over for testing? Both have big question marks as far as production so I don't see how one is better than the other.

Is Zidware legally tied to DR? I thought DR did the whole good will thing of offering cash or discounts to victims just to avoid litigation headaches. It's not like Jpop filed bankruptcy with one company and then started another like PB.

Quoted from iceman44:
Spooky, built it and did it on their own, as far as i know. Which is very impressive! When it's your $$$ and ass on the line you can't afford to make mistakes.
DR, Jpop, others didn't respect OPM.

That right there is why Spooky succeeded. We didn't make ANY $$$ until games went out the door. You don't work very hard for money that's already in the bank.

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago

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