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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#16651 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,842

Quoted from Mr68:

And you would know as you actually play Kaneda's Magic Girl. ...umm, I mean you got to flip the flippers, hand manipulate the ball to dead, impossible shots and the box flashed lights at you. That game had some of the best ball traps ever and Jpop must of designed it to be played with the glass off.

Maybe it could have been a combo game, pinball with Operation. Only this time when the ball ends up in a trap and you have to go grab it, wrong move and a nice 120V jolt into you. You want excitement, that’s excitement on a whole new level

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#16652 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

The discussions of pinbar production solves are interesting (I wonder if RM would be able to follow them). But come on, does anyone really think it's the holdup and once resolved to expect shipping notices for razas flying out the doors?

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#16653 3 years ago
 
BAD

BC_Gambit

PinMod Industries

Unknown

11y 70,550 3,532

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

The discussions of pinbar production solves are interesting (I wonder if RM would be able to follow them). But come on, does anyone really think it's the holdup and once resolved to expect shipping notices for razas flying out the doors?

Of course, even if they got 100% of the parts, and all parts passed inspection, and the machines were certified (UL/CE?)... they would just hit the next roadblock of "building things is hard".

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#16654 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,448

They’re definitely going to struggle for several more months before games ship in meaningful numbers

But unlike some others, Robert appears to have the resources to keep floating this along for a while longer.

Will he ever make money? Probably not. Robert seems proud, so the achievement of eventually shipping some units must be worthwhile in itself.

The game will be whatever whenever it comes out. But Food Truck...

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#16655 3 years ago
 
MAK

Makakka

Pinside member

DE Flensburg

7y 47,550 415 4

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This was around the time people started to get really pissed off, right?

No. The release of the Kiss prototype changed nothing. Some "owners" were excited of the new JPop masterpiece the rest did not care.

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#16656 3 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from Makakka:

No. The release of the Kiss prototype changed nothing. Some "owners" were excited of the new JPop masterpiece the rest did not care.[quoted image]

I care more now that it's been proven he's a moron that pissed all the money away. At the time there was still hope and I was accepting of his explanations. Till the empty cabinets were brought to Expo.

I learned some lessons. Lessons I'm not forgetting.

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#16657 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,539

Quoted from Makakka:

No. The release of the Kiss prototype changed nothing. Some "owners" were excited of the new JPop masterpiece the rest did not care.[quoted image]

I imagine there were plenty of "naysayers" spreading their "negativity" at the time who were shouted down for being big meanies!

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#16658 3 years ago
 
???

woodworker

Inactive member

Unknown

11y 43,550 245

Quoted from iceman44:

It’s not like your track record is hall of fame worthy. Lol

Ben is the only person in pinball history to design EVERY aspect of a pinball game. Including the fucking HARDWARE.

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Oh and look!! 150 units sold!! (not 130... of which MAYBE 50 weren't goodwill units to Zidware customers...)

And they SHIPPED THESE TO CUSTOMERS!!!

He helped Spooky get off the ground.

I still remember your posts from years ago telling everybody that Zidware was going to wipe the floor with Spooky.

LOL is right...

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#16659 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from woodworker:

Ben is the only person in pinball history to design EVERY aspect of a pinball game. Including the fucking HARDWARE.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Oh and look!! 150 units sold!! (not 130... of which MAYBE 50 weren't goodwill units to Zidware customers...)
And they SHIPPED THESE TO CUSTOMERS!!!
He helped Spooky get off the ground.
I still remember your posts from years ago telling everybody that Zidware was going to wipe the floor with Spooky.
LOL is right...

I don’t recall that and I don’t f ing care either. Lol

Oh wait that was 6 or 7 yrs ago I think.

At the time I said it I thought they were all friends and Charlie was sticking it to John with AMH

He started helping John “get off the ground”, after we paid our money to Zidware and then bailed on him.

Now we know. I’m happy for Charlie

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#16660 3 years ago
 
MJW

DakotaMike

Mike's Pinball Repair

US Clermont, FL

4y 95,550 2,111 1 26

Quoted from jawjaw:

Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?

No, I wouldn't be happy about people losing their jobs, but I would be happy for all the truly talented, creative, and motivated people working there to get scooped up by the other manufacturers. That way they could actually put their skills to use helping good companies make more and better pinball.

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#16661 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,539

Quoted from woodworker:

I still remember your posts from years ago telling everybody that Zidware was going to wipe the floor with Spooky.
LOL is right...

How about his dozens of posts from 12 months ago telling us all there was nothing to worry about, everybody was overreacting, and there was going to be zero disruption in our lives?

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#16662 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from woodworker:

Ben is the only person in pinball history to design EVERY aspect of a pinball game. Including the fucking HARDWARE.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Oh and look!! 150 units sold!! (not 130... of which MAYBE 50 weren't goodwill units to Zidware customers...)
And they SHIPPED THESE TO CUSTOMERS!!!
He helped Spooky get off the ground.
I still remember your posts from years ago telling everybody that Zidware was going to wipe the floor with Spooky.
LOL is right...

I’m anxiously awaiting to see the pinball magic Ben is going to create next with CGC

Are we using the same platform? Or CGC? Standard parts etc?

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#16663 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from DakotaMike:

No, I wouldn't be happy about people losing their jobs, but I would be happy for all the truly talented, creative, and motivated people working there to get scooped up by the other manufacturers. That way they could actually put their skills to use helping good companies make more and better pinball.

They are all free to leave NOW aren’t they?

Has Robert enslaved them? If it was that easy to get another job and DR was a total
Shit place to work then why have any of the “good people” stayed?

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#16664 3 years ago
 
VPR

ViperVS

Pinside member

FI Vantaa

6y 49,050 185 29

Quoted from iceman44:

They are all free to leave NOW aren’t they?
Has Robert enslaved them? If it was that easy to get another job and DR was a total
Shit place to work then why have any of the “good people” stayed?

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#16665 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,539

Just taking a little way back trip through memory lane...

A skateboard with a tv screen on it. How JPOP is that?!

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#16666 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from woodworker:

Ben is the only person in pinball history to design EVERY aspect of a pinball game. Including the fucking HARDWARE

Definitely not the only, but probably the most popular and well-known for it, at least inside the pinball community. I can think of a handful of others.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#16667 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from ViperVS:

[quoted image]

If you are dumb enough to keep working with no pay, AND you could have another higher paying job tomorrow then that’s on YOU.

And those people aren’t that stupid. Nobody is. So I’m calling BS on that unless we see some proof.

They received several hundred thousand in PPP for payroll.

Has anyone filed a lawsuit yet?

The Jpop longest running suit in history is scheduled for an “update hearing” on April 29th. 6 plaintiffs left standing. What happened to everyone else?

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#16668 3 years ago
 
???

woodworker

Inactive member

Unknown

11y 43,550 245

Quoted from iceman44:

They are all free to leave NOW aren’t they?
Has Robert enslaved them? If it was that easy to get another job and DR was a total
Shit place to work then why have any of the “good people” stayed?

That's a good question...

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

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#16669 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from woodworker:

That's a good question...
[quoted image]

Nordman leaves everybody. Bad example. Lol

Funny though.

As for AP, I hope he stays long enough to bring more pinball magic. What a great designer and I’m looking forward to see what he produces with more freedom.

And he’ll be a great mentor for those younger designers

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#16670 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,448

Quoted from woodworker:

That's a good question...
[quoted image]

Didn’t he take a detour to CGC first?

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#16671 3 years ago
 
???

pinstyle

Pinside member

11y 51,550 1,420

Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Or if you must have a screen near the bottom for player reference, stick it on the left side of the apron. That's where I've always figured a useful one could go.

But then you would not be able to interface with it. The whole purpose of this thing is to provide a means for the player to interface with the game. Download content, unlocking sections of the playfield. Imagine certain shots not even having access to without paying to unlock. There is obvious perks that go with this (access to maintenance, logs etc., player profiles etc.) but the main drive is DLC and it is obvious.

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#16672 3 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,936 3 14

Quoted from iceman44:

If you are dumb enough to keep working with no pay, AND you could have another higher paying job tomorrow then that’s on YOU.

And those people aren’t that stupid. Nobody is. So I’m calling BS on that unless we see some proof.

Depends on the job. If you're a software guy, no problem.

If you're Steve Bowden and your literal job is rules for a pinball (and you moved to texas for this job), where does he go for work? Does he go back to his teacher gig?

If you're Barry Oursler, who go let go from Williams, worked at two unrelated career pathed jobs for 2 decades, then worked for Heighway pinball (that went out of business), then moved to Texas for deeproot (and he's close to retirement age), what's he going to do for work now?

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#16673 3 years ago
 
MJW

DakotaMike

Mike's Pinball Repair

US Clermont, FL

4y 95,550 2,111 1 26

Quoted from iceman44:

Has Robert been a dick? Sure.
I could care less
Because.....I will get my RAZA!

Right, but will RAZA be good? Will it actually be a fun pin? Will it still work after a year, and will deeproot continue to support it? Will deeproot even still be around for long after RAZA?

Also, you should care whether or not Robert is a dick. Because, he's the one in charge of the company; he's the one making all the decisions. If he's a myopic asshole that continually shows bad judgement, then he's hardly likely to make good long-term choices for the company, and he's not likely to listen to the smart advise of his more experienced employees.

And hey, I don't like talking about strangers like this, but Robert has continued to make idiotic, insulting, and woefully inaccurate public statements time after time for years. So I'm going to assess him based on those statements and on his company's failures. Maybe deep down Robert is a good guy, I doubt it, but maybe. And hey, maybe he'll change his tune and turn everything around. But again, I doubt it.

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#16674 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,539

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Depends on the job. If you're a software guy, no problem.
If you're Steve Bowden and your literal job is rules for a pinball (and you moved to texas for this job), where does he go for work? Does he go back to his teacher gig?
If you're Barry Oursler, who go let go from Williams, worked at two unrelated career pathed jobs for 2 decades, then worked for Heighway pinball (that went out of business), then moved to Texas for deeproot (and he's close to retirement age), what's he going to do for work now?

Lets not get carried away here, Barry was a wash up on the street I don't think the guys like him that Deep Root brought in were really missing out on other big opportunities.

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#16675 3 years ago
 
NTR

TheFamilyArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US New City, NY

11y 104K 9,958 5 37

Quoted from Kneissl:

twas another box of dung while he had however many other games "in development" at the time.

Lookie! A spinning wheel! I’ll admit the “concept” of the KISS Pinball Circus was seductive and the art was outstanding. He basically stops there.

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#16676 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

Quoted from pinstyle:

But then you would not be able to interface with it. The whole purpose of this thing is to provide a means for the player to interface with the game. Download content, unlocking sections of the playfield. Imagine certain shots not even having access to without paying to unlock. There is obvious perks that go with this (access to maintenance, logs etc., player profiles etc.) but the main drive is DLC and it is obvious.

They've demonstrated no ability to even program a single interesting, conventional ruleset. The idea of releasing multiple, compelling rulesets for an estimated production run of fewer than 200 units, let alone to do that for multiple titles, develop a sophisticated framework to deliver dlc and all this other stuff, and program the base rules for their twenty titles in development is par for the course with this company hilarious. And don't forget the outfit in charge of all this pinball coding is turner logic, the group that makes Robert's websites but has zero prior experience with pinball.

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#16677 3 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,141 14 6

Quoted from benheck:

John just slaps shit in a box to give the IMPRESSION of a pinball machine. His Houdini was the same thing.
Robert (like AP before him) couldn't sniff the BS and dove in.

Despite the reams of documentation, horror stories and IMMEDIATE preceding AP debacle which confirmed the whole thing. This is why I think it's all a scam. Perfect setup: "oh! My goodness! I had no idea JPOP was a disasterpiece! Of course we always do our due dilgence! Except for this ONE time..."

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#16678 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Depends on the job. If you're a software guy, no problem.
If you're Steve Bowden and your literal job is rules for a pinball (and you moved to texas for this job), where does he go for work? Does he go back to his teacher gig?
If you're Barry Oursler, who go let go from Williams, worked at two unrelated career pathed jobs for 2 decades, then worked for Heighway pinball (that went out of business), then moved to Texas for deeproot (and he's close to retirement age), what's he going to do for work now?

That’s exactly my point!!!!

These highly specific skilled jobs don’t grow on trees

Let’s hope they can KEEP them and be successful FFS

Rooting against it is petty, hateful and simply an overall lack of caring for those people affected by it

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#16679 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Right, but will RAZA be good? Will it actually be a fun pin? Will it still work after a year, and will deeproot continue to support it? Will deeproot even still be around for long after RAZA?
Also, you should care whether or not Robert is a dick. Because, he's the one in charge of the company; he's the one making all the decisions. If he's a myopic asshole that continually shows bad judgement, then he's hardly likely to make good long-term choices for the company, and he's not likely to listen to the smart advise of his more experienced employees.
And hey, I don't like talking about strangers like this, but Robert has continued to make idiotic, insulting, and woefully inaccurate public statements time after time for years. So I'm going to assess him based on those statements and on his company's failures. Maybe deep down Robert is a good guy, I doubt it, but maybe. And hey, maybe he'll change his tune and turn everything around. But again, I doubt it.

Listen, there are a shit ton of DICKS running companies. I’m one of them!

Actually I’m the greatest boss ever according to the people who work for me

He has been a pathetic failure up to this point in terms of HIS management skills.

He’s not an intellectually stupid man. They have the $$ and let’s see how long they last

I hope it’s a long time so that the long time employees achieve some gratification and $$

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#16680 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

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#16681 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

Now this is RICH.

I just came across a great presentation with some sage guidance that I think could really help Robert with his business woes:

https://deeprootfunds.com/downloads/Nobody_Cares_about_a_Nobody.pdf

Some gems:

Screen Shot 2021-03-14 at 12.40.26 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-03-14 at 12.40.26 PM (resized).png

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#16682 3 years ago
 
???

pinstyle

Pinside member

11y 51,550 1,420

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

They've demonstrated no ability to even program a single interesting, conventional ruleset. The idea of releasing multiple, compelling rulesets for an estimated production run of fewer than 200 units, let alone to do that for multiple titles, develop a sophisticated framework to deliver dlc and all this other stuff, and program the base rules for their twenty titles in development is par for the course with this company hilarious. And don't forget the outfit in charge of all this pinball coding is turner logic, the group that makes Robert's websites but has zero prior experience with pinball.

Oh by all means I am not saying they can, just stating this is their end goal.

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#16683 3 years ago
 
MON

Monte

Pinside member

US Chicago, IL

13y 66,300 367 11

Whoops, wrong thread.

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#16684 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,842

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Now this is RICH.
I just came across a great presentation with some sage guidance that I think could really help Robert with his business woes:
https://deeprootfunds.com/downloads/Nobody_Cares_about_a_Nobody.pdf
Some gems:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

That is probably the most hilarious thing I have seen posted this far. The lack of self insight is just palpable

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#16685 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

Quoted from pookycade:

That is probably the most hilarious thing I have seen posted this far. The lack of self insight is just palpable

Those who can't do, teach

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#16686 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

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#16687 3 years ago
 
TOM

Lounge

Pinside+ Frequent

4y 71,050 1,535 5

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

[quoted image]

WTF ... it’s just pinball - make it interesting.

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#16688 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

[quoted image]

It's word vomit. Python was right - John's a FAKER.

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#16689 3 years ago
 
CVJ

SmallyBells

Pinside member

US Kansas City, OR

4y 22,400 84 6

I bet Dennis Nordman had to sit through that slide show. I wonder who was designated as his third party coach.

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#16690 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

Quoted from SmallyBells:

I bet Dennis Nordman had to sit through that slide show.

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#16691 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,724 1

John has almost literally been working on this thing for a decade and it's still not out

https://web.archive.org/web/20111103235035/http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/ben-heck-and-pinball-legend-john-popadiuk-to-create-zombieland-pinball-machine-2011111/

Screen Shot 2021-03-14 at 9.43.39 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-03-14 at 9.43.39 PM (resized).png

Preorders start January 1, 2012!

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#16692 3 years ago
 
NTR

TheFamilyArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US New City, NY

11y 104K 9,958 5 37

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

[quoted image]

never have so many accomplished so little.

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#16693 3 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,936 3 14

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

John has almost literally been working on this thing for a decade and it's still not out

https://web.archive.org/web/20111103235035/http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/ben-heck-and-pinball-legend-john-popadiuk-to-create-zombieland-pinball-machine-2011111/
[quoted image]
Preorders start January 1, 2012!

Something I hadn't realized until just now (maybe I was too new in the hobby back then to see it) but that backglass is literally a rehash of TOM, replace woman with Ben. If this isn't proof that John recycles things rather than create from scratch I don't know what is.
BHZA=TOM (resized).pngBHZA=TOM (resized).png

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#16694 3 years ago
 
DEN

DennisNordman

Pinside+ Frequent

US Lake Villa, IL

11y 61,050 143

Quoted from woodworker:

I went back and dug up your words from the Super Awesome Pinball Show:
[quoted image]
Interpret it any way you want, but your words about Deep Root are pretty damning. You left because they wouldn't get one of your games done. Your words, not mine...

Interesting that your photo with the mis-quote is now missing.

Screenshot (1) (resized).pngScreenshot (1) (resized).png

Post last edited 3 years ago: “Add screenshot”

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#16695 3 years ago
 
RJW

screaminr

In Memoriam

7y 116K 6,151

Quoted from DennisNordman:

Interesting that your photo with the mis-quote is now missing.

G'day Dennis , I'm a big fan of your work .
Do you think , there's actually any chance of your DR games making it into actual production .

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#16696 3 years ago
 
JAM

Wolfmarsh

Pinside member

12y 134K 10,956

That presentation is hilarious, and something I have seen several times before from people who talk like they know what they are doing but can't actually deliver.

Remember, the first 80% of a project is only 20% of the work. The last 20% of a project is 80% of the work.

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#16697 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Happy mid-March everyone.

"We received some criticism in reply to the last update about putting an expectation of mid-March for first shipments. It was meant as an internal goal and external expectation, not a promise of delivery. We are sorry for not better communicating that."

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#16698 3 years ago
 
BRU

brucipher

Pinside member

12y 91,300 1,697 23

Quoted from Mr68:

Happy mid-March everyone.
"We received some criticism in reply to the last update about putting an expectation of mid-March for first shipments. It was meant as an internal goal and external expectation, not a promise of delivery. We are sorry for not better communicating that."

As a consumer, reading their "RAZA Order, Payment, and Shipment Details" page implies to me that games would begin to reach customers approximately six weeks from ordering.

"Ramp up for RAZA
As of the time of opening orders, nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic. Vendors face similar issues and lead times for metals, plastics, componentry and backlit panels are all unpredictable and much longer than pre-pandemic. Even prior to the pandemic many new pinball releases often took 4-6 weeks for manufacturing to ramp up after opening orders, and took months to fulfill all orders. Our RAZA run will be no different.

We plan to ramp up our lines in a slow, controlled manner using phases with a goal to finish and ship all RAZA orders in less than four months. The first three phases will only be games meeting UL certification for North America/Canada. As CE and other international certifications will still be ongoing, we will not ship international orders until the fourth phase at the earliest.

Phase 1: Approximately six weeks as the first games reach customers, with us alternating between Arcade and Xtra editions (backlit side panels being the primary delays for Xtra editions).
Phase 2: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 30.
Phase 3: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 40.
Phase 4: The balance of domestic orders and all International orders."

Then, their "Updated FAQ 12.29.20" stated:

"When will my RAZA be delivered?
We will provide updates as production and shipments happen. We expect to be done with RAZA production well before the stated Phases."

It's no wonder why almost nobody trusts this company.

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#16699 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,448

I still want to know what the hell "It was meant as an internal goal and external expectation" means

Incredibly ironic it's followed with an apology for being a poor communicator.

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#16700 3 years ago
 
MWS

Methos

Pinside member

US Lodi, WI

12y 103K 7,272 21 10 1

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:That presentation is hilarious, and something I have seen several times before from people who talk like they know what they are doing but can't actually deliver.
Remember, the first 80% of a project is only 20% of the work. The last 20% of a project is 80% of the work.

It's all pop psychology/consulting bullshit. It's words that don't mean a damn thing. The modern snake oil salesman.

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