(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#16601 3 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

They deserve to lose money? Wow. Ok. Don't think I am misinterpreting anything here. Pretty clear how you guys roll.

At least they are being honest now.

They want to see failure, loss of jobs and pinsiders to lose money.

I’m ok with that. Haters are everywhere hating on everything.

Has Robert been a dick? Sure.

I could care less

Because.....I will get my RAZA!

Not one of these guys has the balls to actually put money on it

#16602 3 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

Millennials.
Can we talk about something more interesting? When is the Ben Heck Show revival? YouTube has been taken over by couples videos since you left.

I make new videos on occasion, channel is called Ben Heck Hacks.

17
#16603 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

At least they are being honest now.
They want to see failure, loss of jobs and pinsiders to lose money.
I’m ok with that. Haters are everywhere hating on everything.
Has Robert been a dick? Sure.
I could care less
Because.....I will get my RAZA!
Not one of these guys has the balls to actually put money on it

As someone who brags casually about how much money he has tied up(lost) with ASOA and doesn't give a fuq, you clearly want to show yourself as someone who wipes his ass with $10,000-that's cool man the rest of us living in the real world will spend our money wisely. And when we do that we will laughably point fingers at you morons who dump money into these other morons who can't put a game out.

-2
#16604 3 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

As someone who brags casually about how much money he has tied up(lost) with ASOA and doesn't give a fuq, you clearly want to show yourself as someone who wipes his ass with $10,000-that's cool man the rest of us living in the real world will spend our money wisely. And when we do that we will laughably point fingers at you morons who dump money into these other morons who can't put a game out.

Lol.

I don’t need anybody telling me how to spend my money bro! Or If I want to wipe my ass with $100 dollar bills

I might consider selling my LE Raza for $50k though

#16605 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I make new videos on occasion, channel is called Ben Heck Hacks.

Here's a question: what are the differences between RAZA now (other than 'it exists') and the game it was planned to be back when it was Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland? I assume the original under John's watch would have been more ambitious... maybe 'Magic Girl' ambitious (i.e. 'lol no')?

#16606 3 years ago

lmfao WOW what a bunch of losers wanting someone to fail.

#16607 3 years ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

lmfao WOW what a bunch of losers wanting someone to fail.

Misery loves company.

They can pucker up and pick a cheek

10
#16608 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Competition is the worst thing that ever happened to pinball!
When there was only one pinball company NIB games were $3800!!!
I mean yeah the choices were Indiana Jones and CSI but still, I don't see how this has been an overall improvement!

Pricing is interesting isn’t it ? I mean if Stern were some monopoly gouging customers and ready to be broken up you would think someone out there could do a $3500 equivalent pin. Instead we get Homepin. All the rest of these startups go in thinking they can bust up Sterns price model, but find out quickly they can’t. Not only can’t they, they can’t even come close and are usually priced over what Stern can do. Now of course Sterns pros have become the equivalent of wide open play fields and inanimate plastic models for toys, but they still can’t be beat on a cost per feature level. Only one who comes close is American Pinball and they aren’t quite discount pinball. Reality is building things is hard, Stern has economies of scale nobody else can remotely touch, and everyone thinking they can show Stern a thing or two (are you listening Deeproot ?) can’t actually show anything because they have no idea how to build anything and can’t scale to achieve pricing efficiencies. We may bitch and moan about Sterns escalating pricing but so far I’m not seeing alot of fat to be trimmed here given multiple companies failure to even get to Stern level pricing. Face it there is not alot of margin building things that require 100s of parts with mostly all manual assembly with volumes of 100-1000 units

#16609 3 years ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

lmfao WOW what a bunch of losers wanting someone to fail.

DR fail? Nah. RM hubris caused this backlash and the disappointment that he caused cuz folks want Stern to come back to reality in QC and pricing. DR failure encourages Stern to act bolder.

#16610 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Reality is building things is hard, Stern has economies of scale nobody else can remotely touch, and everyone thinking they can show Stern a thing or two (are you listening Deeproot ?) can’t actually show anything because they have no idea how to build anything and can’t scale to achieve pricing efficiencies.

Ding Ding Ding! The truth hurts. It's easy to stick your fingers in your ears, talk about how great your game will be when you get it, and ignore all the red flags in the world. OCTO(oh wait I mean) QUAD manufacturing! Assembly lines are the past! lol

25
#16611 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Here's a question: what are the differences between RAZA now (other than 'it exists') and the game it was planned to be back when it was Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland? I assume the original under John's watch would have been more ambitious... maybe 'Magic Girl' ambitious (i.e. 'lol no')?

I don't recall even seeing a whitewood or design for it. Just sketches which did resemble the current game.

John seemed to design from the "outside in" ie make a backglass, make the cabinet. He was jazzed about this idea to have "portholes" on both sides of the cabinet that would show a glowing power rod inside the machine. Cool but of course in a lineup you wouldn't even really see it.

We spit balled a lot of ideas that didn't make it into the game. Like a Skee Ball skill shot, so obvious why wouldn't you do it right? Think we mocked that up with foam core. Also a "zombie ball", a gimmick where the ball goes into the vat of "zombie acid" and a green one comes out (like Powerball)

Of course the art back then was a dilapidated theme park which is visually much more interesting than an intact one (and fits the zombie theme) I also wanted to be the bad guy, I take the Hero's girl and "at midnight transform her into my ZOMBIE QUEEN". (hence the zombie acid) Don't think he likes that idea.

John also didn't like violent ideas (in a zombie game?) I had sketches such as a torn in half zombie looking sad next to the "You Must Be This Tall To Ride" sign. John probably didn't understand the psychology behind the zombie craze. It's a dark fantasy, the idea you can legally shoot your neighbor who wouldn't trim their hedges. The voyeurism of "how would I be a hero?" daydream we've all had since watching Die Hard. The allure of seeing society collapse after the Great Recession. Again, fits a run down theme park.

But again, looking back now, I think he just wanted to remake Cyclone. Adding zombies were a Trojan horse to allow him this self-indulgence. It's probably why he didn't like any of our concepts (besides the port holes)

Now it's 8 years later and the zombie craze is dead. Retro sci-fi is even deader, and yet they've baked that feel into the cabinets. It all reeks of unbridled self-indulgence, and an arrogance that their ideas are so good that customers will be drawn to shitty themes. But they've done nothing to make the theme work. The mechs are just spinning objects. What's the draw? At the end of the day pinball is a ball rolling around whacking stuff. Deeproot fails because they've put that part DEAD LAST. It's like putting an amazing paint job on a Dodge Neon.

#16612 3 years ago

At least you can drive a Dodge Neon.

#16613 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I don't recall even seeing a whitewood or design for it. Just sketches which did resemble the current game.
John seemed to design from the "outside in" ie make a backglass, make the cabinet. He was jazzed about this idea to have "portholes" on both sides of the cabinet that would show a glowing power rod inside the machine. Cool but of course in a lineup you wouldn't even really see it.
We spit balled a lot of ideas that didn't make it into the game. Like a Skee Ball skill shot, so obvious why wouldn't you do it right? Think we mocked that up with foam core. Also a "zombie ball", a gimmick where the ball goes into the vat of "zombie acid" and a green one comes out (like Powerball)
Of course the art back then was a dilapidated theme park which is visually much more interesting than an intact one (and fits the zombie theme) I also wanted to be the bad guy, I take the Hero's girl and "at midnight transform her into my ZOMBIE QUEEN". (hence the zombie acid) Don't think he likes that idea.
John also didn't like violent ideas (in a zombie game?) I had sketches such as a torn in half zombie looking sad next to the "You Must Be This Tall To Ride" sign. John probably didn't understand the psychology behind the zombie craze. It's a dark fantasy, the idea you can legally shoot your neighbor who wouldn't trim their hedges. The voyeurism of "how would I be a hero?" daydream we've all had since watching Die Hard. The allure of seeing society collapse after the Great Recession. Again, fits a run down theme park.
But again, looking back now, I think he just wanted to remake Cyclone. Adding zombies were a Trojan horse to allow him this self-indulgence. It's probably why he didn't like any of our concepts (besides the port holes)
Now it's 8 years later and the zombie craze is dead. Retro sci-fi is even deader, and yet they've baked that feel into the cabinets. It all reeks of unbridled self-indulgence, and an arrogance that their ideas are so good that customers will be drawn to shitty themes. But they've done nothing to make the theme work. The mechs are just spinning objects. What's the draw? At the end of the day pinball is a ball rolling around whacking stuff. Deeproot fails because they've put that part DEAD LAST. It's like putting an amazing paint job on a Dodge Neon.

I think there’s a saying that being an entrepreneur takes the courage OR stupidity of ones own convictions with little evidence to go on to support the endeavor. It’s why 90% of them fail (stupidity being in over-abundance as opposed to actual good ideas). I will give them both this, they stayed on the same course for years driving into either ultimate success or what most of us fear is a final upcoming brick wall. What’s that other saying from Spinal Tap ? - “there’s such a fine line between clever and stupid”. The problem for both of them is that when they were finally forced to add up the receipts assessing demand for their great ideas, the market pretty much told them they had little use for what they were peddling. Of course they did themselves no favors in the reveal after 8 years to build up any consumer confidence they were offering something people desperately want/need. I greatly admire the effort though, even if I’m not particularly fond of the approach used or the substantial destruction left in its wake.

-9
#16614 3 years ago

Blah, blah, blah .....

Now here we are.

The moment of truth.

The “woke” cancel historians are living in the past. Lololol!!!!

Years ago.

It’s today. Get it?

No. You don’t. And you won’t.

43
#16615 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The “woke” cancel historians are living in the past. Lololol!!!!

You're rooting for a guy who hasn't shipped a complete game since Clinton was president.

Who's living in the past?

-38
#16616 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

You're rooting for a guy who hasn't shipped a complete game since Clinton was president.
Who's living in the past?

You live for your hard on for Jpop.

It’s a little disturbing quite honestly.

I don’t give a F about John. But rage on Ben if it makes you feel better

You were personally a part of the original scam.

I’m going to get a game from Deeproot whether you like it or not.

And I will laugh my ass off

There isn’t a damn thing you or anyone else can do to keep it from happening.

Unbelievable!

-21
#16617 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

You're rooting for a guy who hasn't shipped a complete game since Clinton was president.
Who's living in the past?

Maybe you should focus on yourself and your own game?

It’s not like your track record is hall of fame worthy. Lol

What a hypocrite who did NOTHING back then to stop him. FACT

Now here comes Ben to save the day. Give me a break man!

8 years later your credibility is ZERO

How is that for history?

#16618 3 years ago

Man I really hope everyone gets their pin

But if/when this blows up, I'll be looking for the auction notice

At least there won't be alot of production people out of work

#16619 3 years ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Man I really hope everyone gets their pin
But if/when this blows up, I'll be looking for the auction notice
At least there won't be alot of production people out of work

Pick up a sweet HUO octo-manufacturing rig?

#16620 3 years ago
Quoted from Lounge:

Pick up a sweet HUO octo-manufacturing rig?

Lol

#16621 3 years ago

Be nice if it made BTC octo BTC Coin rig would be sweeet

#16622 3 years ago

This is a joke. John is a joke. RM is an ass.

We will see if anyone gets their games.

Ice, I’ll bet you that Deeproot doesn’t ship 100 games by September of 2021. You can have up until the last day of September.

$100 or a shipping local micro brews.

#16623 3 years ago
Quoted from dc2010:Man I really hope everyone gets their pin
But if/when this blows up, I'll be looking for the auction notice
At least there won't be alot of production people out of work

Quoted from Lounge:

Pick up a sweet HUO octo-manufacturing rig?

Not unless they have an Octopus in that building .

#16624 3 years ago

I made a $6500 bet that nothing was going to happen when I didn't bother signing the legal paperwork by their 2018 deadline.

A few people were smarter than me, the ones that took the early cash. They're the wisest of everyone (and yes, Ben, your "legal advice" was bang on).

I'm not wishing failure, but I've been predicting it. I will happily accept being proven wrong, and it's legitimately frustrating every time deeproot does something predictable, like blowing deadline after deadline, to the point where they refuse to even give a new one.

19
#16625 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Maybe you should focus on yourself and your own game?
It’s not like your track record is hall of fame worthy. Lol
What a hypocrite who did NOTHING back then to stop him. FACT
Now here comes Ben to save the day. Give me a break man!
8 years later your credibility is ZERO
How is that for history?

Umm, news flash, I certainly enjoy reading your posts. But you think you rank higher on the credibility scale than Ben ? Really ? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

#16626 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Here's a question: what are the differences between RAZA now (other than 'it exists') and the game it was planned to be back when it was Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland? I assume the original under John's watch would have been more ambitious...

Attached is an early RAZA playfield design, and an early whitewood photo courtesy of Pinball News I think. It's a similar layout at first glance but went through a lot of changes when you start to compare with the current one. I agree I think the early design was much more ambitious but then reality probably set in.

007-retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland (resized).jpg007-retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland (resized).jpgRAZA Playfield (resized).jpgRAZA Playfield (resized).jpg
12
#16627 3 years ago
Quoted from DennisNordman:

Don't mis-quote me. I did not say that.

I went back and dug up your words from the Super Awesome Pinball Show:

Nordman (resized).jpgNordman (resized).jpg

Interpret it any way you want, but your words about Deep Root are pretty damning. You left because they wouldn't get one of your games done. Your words, not mine...

#16628 3 years ago
Quoted from Strohz:

Attached is an early RAZA playfield design, and an early whitewood photo courtesy of Pinball News I think. It's a similar layout at first glance but went through a lot of changes when you start to compare with the current one. I agree I think the early design was much more ambitious but then reality probably set in.[quoted image][quoted image]

That ramp shot to the upper right corner checks out.

11
#16629 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:Umm, news flash, I certainly enjoy reading your posts. But you think you rank higher on the credibility scale than Ben ? Really ? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

The site should require one of those immobilizers on his computer he has to blow in for the post button to work

#16630 3 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

That ramp shot to the upper right corner checks out.

Classic John. Still allergic to straight lines.

#16631 3 years ago
Quoted from Strohz:

Attached is an early RAZA playfield design, and an early whitewood photo courtesy of Pinball News I think. It's a similar layout at first glance but went through a lot of changes when you start to compare with the current one. I agree I think the early design was much more ambitious but then reality probably set in.[quoted image][quoted image]

Terry from pinball life still has his zombie artwork plastered to one of his shelves

terry_dezwarte (resized).pngterry_dezwarte (resized).png
#16632 3 years ago

It beggars belief that this monstrosity is still lurching around, zombie like.

It really is the car built for Homer.

#16633 3 years ago

That early RAZA looks like an unshootable POS covered with art that'd get you sued by Tops, MGM and Toho.

Ice can say whatever he wants about me. It really CANNOT be understated how much John's influence (and Robert's obsession with him) has doomed this endeavor.

Game's gonna be a POS anyway (just like Predaturd).

#16634 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Classic John. Still allergic to straight lines.

and physics!

#16635 3 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

That ramp shot to the upper right corner checks out.

And you would know as you actually play Kaneda's Magic Girl. ...umm, I mean you got to flip the flippers, hand manipulate the ball to dead, impossible shots and the box flashed lights at you. That game had some of the best ball traps ever and Jpop must of designed it to be played with the glass off.

#16636 3 years ago

Good memory Kim! Yah, I played it over multiple Manhattans, which made the experience more pleasurable for sure.

The ramps shot “ok” if I recall, but the layout was surprisingly bland and yes, shots to nowhere! And nothing really happened in the game to speak of. It was terribly undercooked code wise.

Kaneda insists it’s the most beautiful art package of all time and I disagree there. It’s visually appealing. Striking even, but it doesn’t really elevate above other well done hand art packages, especially the best 70’s and 80’s art and some recent Stern packages.

#16637 3 years ago

John just slaps shit in a box to give the IMPRESSION of a pinball machine. His Houdini was the same thing.

Robert (like AP before him) couldn't sniff the BS and dove in.

#16638 3 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

I went back and dug up your words from the Super Awesome Pinball Show:

I went back and dug up the words of Python on Jpop in the famous topcast interview.
"He is a chameleon, a lizard and Python knows this because Python is the king of snakes"

http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/topcast_42.mp3

#16639 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

John just slaps shit in a box to give the IMPRESSION of a pinball machine. His Houdini was the same thing.
Robert (like AP before him) couldn't sniff the BS and dove in.

I know that both of us entirely independently from each other took one look at his Houdini playfield from a geometrical perspective and went 'not in a million years'.

Anyone know what his KISS 'proof of concept' looked like? That's the one I've never seen pictures of.

#16640 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Anyone know what his KISS 'proof of concept' looked like? That's the one I've never seen pictures of.

twas another box of dung while he had however many other games "in development" at the time.

#16641 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

I know that both of us entirely independently from each other took one look at his Houdini playfield from a geometrical perspective and went 'not in a million years'.
Anyone know what his KISS 'proof of concept' looked like? That's the one I've never seen pictures of.

Naturally the backglass and cabinet art was fully rendered. The backglass was much better than what Stern produced. As for the game itself just the typical John foam core with some B&W art pasted on and flat pieces of foam core elevated to suggest return ramps.

Stern was pissed because they'd acquired the KISS license around the same time.

EDIT: Jesus didn't remember it being that far along. Look at how much time this moron spent on a license he didn't have! This isn't Pinball Amigos making Minions in a basement this is a guy who's taken MILLIONS!

#16642 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Anyone know what his KISS 'proof of concept' looked like? That's the one I've never seen pictures of.

It should have had stand up targets to spell out FUBAR

#16643 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Naturally the backglass and cabinet art was fully rendered. The backglass was much better than what Stern produced. As for the game itself just the typical John foam core with some B&W art pasted on and flat pieces of foam core elevated to suggest return ramps.
Stern was pissed because they'd acquired the KISS license around the same time.
EDIT: Jesus didn't remember it being that far along. Look at how much time this moron spent on a license he didn't have! This isn't Pinball Amigos making Minions in a basement this is a guy who's taken MILLIONS!

The strangest thing about that foam and cardboard KISS game was that he went all in on the Tommy Thayer KISS, which literally zero percent of KISS fans want on their pinball machine. Stern of course was 100 percent original Ace* in the art package, because they always give the people what they want!

*not counting the video assets, but you could get away with that on a DMD without upsetting the kisstards. Besides they had no choice, it's what KISS gave them, along with the shitty 21st century re-recordings.

#16644 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

EDIT: Jesus didn't remember it being that far along. Look at how much time this moron spent on a license he didn't have! This isn't Pinball Amigos making Minions in a basement this is a guy who's taken MILLIONS!

yeah, that was my reaction watching that video again today. Holy crap a ton of time and resources put into that thing, which came from... my money (and every zidware customer)!

#16645 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

yeah, that was my reaction watching that video again today. Holy crap a ton of time and resources put into that thing, which came from... my money (and every zidware customer)!

This was around the time people started to get really pissed off, right?

And didn't John have some ridiculous story about how he had a friend dying of cancer who dreamed of a KISS machine so he had no choice but to steal your money to build this cardboard KISS game instead of working on your Magic Girls?

It is absolutely mind-boggling this guy is still somehow kind of being paid to sort of be in the pinball industry.

#16646 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It is absolutely mind-boggling this guy is still somehow kind of being paid to sort of be in the pinball industry.

this.gifthis.gif
#16647 3 years ago

Regarding the lock bar (and pinbar) . Why not cast aluminum with steel inserts for the locking ears? It would have to be 1/2 inch thick or so but would be cheaper no? Aluminum is much softer than steel but would it really matter for a lockbar? They used to be made of wood afterall. Polished aluminum with a clear coat or anodized, just a thought.

#16648 3 years ago
Quoted from nate1981s:

Regarding the lock bar (and pinbar) . Why not cast aluminum with steel inserts for the locking ears? It would have to be 1/2 inch thick or so but would be cheaper no? Aluminum is much softer than steel but would it really matter for a lockbar? They used to be made of wood afterall. Polished aluminum with a clear coat or anodized, just a thought.

How about just using a regular steel lockdown bar that doesn't have a tv screen in it like ever other lockdown bar of the past 60 years?

Just a thought.

#16649 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How about just using a regular steel lockdown bar that doesn't have a tv screen in it like ever other lockdown bar of the past 60 years?
Just a thought.

Or if you must have a screen near the bottom for player reference, stick it on the left side of the apron. That's where I've always figured a useful one could go.

#16650 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How about just using a regular steel lockdown bar that doesn't have a tv screen in it like ever other lockdown bar of the past 60 years?
Just a thought.

Eh, I am not anti innovation. Try something new. I am open to be dazzled.

But at the end of the day the company has to produce something, and not take advantage of people to do it.

Just thumping your chest that somehow "you will get a game no matter what" and becoming 2021's Whysnow is really not that admirable. Are you really going to be super proud of your "rare" game if other hobbyists lose out "so you can get yours?".

Even gullible/misled investors seem to be on the short end of this misadventure. And hopefully the staff are actually paid for their work. I am not setting the bar particularly high here...

A reasonable person would want a fun pinball GAME (this is supposed to be about fun after all), and not at the cost of other people's misery.

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