Quoted from CrazyLevi:The pinbar is absolutely ridiculous.
The pinbar is pure deeproot then.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Bermuda Triangle
The pinbar is there for showing comercials and dlc content
Lootcrates and updates
Better to call it the katching bar (insert dropping coin sounds here)
Its a way to send your money straight to muellers bankacount
Iff it ever works
Rockford, IL
Quoted from SLCpunk2113:I wouldn’t mind a touch screen service menu just put it inside the coin door. Problem solved.
no. problem solved is a phone app that connects to the machine via bluetooth
Quoted from CrazyLevi:If only there was someone here who likes to get shitfaced every night and drunkenly challenge all comers to a bet about deep root!
What do you mean? Making a super safe bet and then acting like it really proved a point is a great use of time
Service menus in games could definitely be better. But that could be solved with a simple wifi/Bluetooth connection and an app. (Blah blah blah it won’t increase sales. The menu still sucks though)
Idk how much players are really going to care about logging in and out of the machine. Certainly casuals won’t want to fool with it or give up personal information to play a pinball machine for a few minutes. It’s a very hardcore player feature. (Maybe a phone app can make signing in/out quick and painless, but deeproot has a million other things to figure out first)
A lot of casuals don’t realize when there is more than one flipper button. Are they really going to use a virtual button on the screen? At least the lockdown bar button is glowing in their face, begging to be slapped with gusto even if it’s not always clear what it does.
It’s wild they don’t have vendors for the core components of their cabinet. I sorta get why they want a hard number for things like RAZA ramps, but every game they sell should theoretically have the PinBar, PinLift, etc. this should have been figured out months if not years ago.
I’m still very interested to see what the MSRP of Food Truck is once they have a better grasp of what their own products cost to build. Maybe even an adult comes in and starts ripping out some of the more costly frivolous addons. (Or at least relegate some of them to the most expensive product version)
Quoted from benheck:Speaking of George Gomez, John is probably still sore that his idea for Pinball 2000 is the one Williams chose instead of John's.
John's idea? Putting an LCD near the shooter area to give the player information. Hmmmm....
It's not the worst idea. It's just a luxury.
I like the LCD rule screen mod for Rob Zombie
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:What is the latest ETA from deeproot on customer deliveries?
In pure deeproot fashion they committed to not announcing any more eta dates and said their March eta was a misunderstanding.
Whoop.
The Pittsburgh Pirates currently have better odds at delivering a championship this year then DR has at delivering games this year.
Laval, QC
Quoted from benheck:Speaking of George Gomez, John is probably still sore that his idea for Pinball 2000 is the one Williams chose instead of John's.
John's idea? Putting an LCD near the shooter area to give the player information. Hmmmm....
JJP put an LCD on the apron for Pirates without any fuss. The problem comes when you want to make it a touch screen.
Quoted from benheck:Speaking of George Gomez, John is probably still sore that his idea for Pinball 2000 is the one Williams chose instead of John's.
John's idea? Putting an LCD near the shooter area to give the player information. Hmmmm....
I can only imagine what that would have cost to implement in 1999.
Quoted from JodyG:The Pittsburgh Pirates currently have better odds at delivering a championship this year then DR has at delivering games this year.
The "internal estimates" being made public was causing the public to believe they were "external estimates," a leap of logic that could not have been foreseen. As such "internal estimates" will now be kept private.
In other words, these games will never ship.
Quoted from JodyG:The Pittsburgh Pirates currently have better odds at delivering a championship this year then DR has at delivering games this year.
And the Pirates actually have games scheduled.
Quoted from TreyBo69:It's not the worst idea. It's just a luxury.
I like the LCD rule screen mod for Rob Zombie
As a concept no, it's not bad.
But... I bet it's a manufacturing disaster. There's only a few lockdown bar stamps in the world... and they need a custom one made for their pathetically small run of games. It's probably costing them a small fortune.
I'm guessing the pinbar's original intent was to make servicing easy (and it's not inside a dark and cramped coin door). However, as many have said, this could have EASILY been replicated by adding a bluetooth module, pay a software guy half a year to develop a really nice app and you'd have nearly the same experience. In fact possibly a better one because if each player creates an "app login", then you'd never have to enter your name ever again, it would just recognize who you were. In fact, you could probably have all the data at your fingertips anywhere in the world (what's my scores? how far did I get into that last game, etc). I bet this is the route that JJP goes down, they even back updated wonka to allow bluetooth and wifi (you do have to buy your own modules, but they are off the shelf from amazon for $10).
I don't know if Robert was afraid that somehow someone would start hacking the pinball machine remotely? Or he just had this concept in his head that everything needed to be interfaced on the machine so he could have purchasable content in the game (more revenue). Either way I bet every single game coming off the line either has issues from the get-go with the pinbar, or at the very least a few months down the road after a few hundred plays. Sure sounds like this is still in development, and something major like a user interface with inputs needs to be heavily tested before you start building production games. They should already have some sort of text fixture that just has a robot finger touching every section of the screen over and over, and at the end of the day they should be verifying every section of the touchscreen still functions.
Quoted from benheck:As a concept no, it's not bad.
But... I bet it's a manufacturing disaster. There's only a few lockdown bar stamps in the world... and they need a custom one made for their pathetically small run of games. It's probably costing them a small fortune.
I've designed and built a number of stamping dies. The pinbar probably wouldn't be that hard to build a low production volume die for. Well, you'll need two. One to do the draw operation for the sides, and another to cut the window out. The bigger issue is you are going to probably be looking around a bit for a stamping house that wants to screw around polishing the die and running 120 pieces. The hourly press time rate will reflect this. The edges of the pinbar which wrap around the sides is going to be a bitch to keep straight in a draw forming operation. They might be better off blanking it with notches in the corners, forming it, welding the seam, and then grinding/polishing it out. Thats 3 dies now. Or maybe just laser cut the blanks. This is going to get salty for such a low volume of parts, and further proves why reinventing the wheel is costly.
Quoted from JodyG:I've designed and built a number of stamping dies. The pinbar probably wouldn't be that hard to build a low production volume die for. Well, you'll need two. One to do the draw operation for the sides, and another to cut the window out. The bigger issue is you are going to probably be looking around a bit for a stamping house that wants to screw around polishing the die and running 120 pieces. The hourly press time rate will reflect this. The edges of the pinbar which wrap around the sides is going to be a bitch to keep straight in a draw forming operation. They might be better off blanking it with notches in the corners, forming it, welding the seam, and then grinding/polishing it out. Thats 3 dies now. Or maybe just laser cut the blanks. This is going to get salty for such a low volume of parts, and further proves why reinventing the wheel is costly.
Hmm, that all sounds like a challenging, and self-imposed, set of problems. But I thought Robert said that "Pinball is easy." 
I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake. I don't want egomaniacs who manage to get some cash behind them through either graft, inheritance, or dumb-luck to succeed.
We've got plenty of pinball manufacturers now. More than enough with Stern, JJP, CGC, API, and Spooky. Plus, we've got P3 Multi, The PB Bros, Dutch, and Haggis to name a few more small-run guys. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say we've got too many pinball manufacturers right now. I'd love to see a few of these companies team-up or merge together. They could increase overall volume to reduce their costs and overhead, and maybe we'd actually see more than 1 game a year from a company besides Stern.
The only reason I'd even half-want deeproot to succeed is so that Zidware people can be made whole, assuming that RM actually intends to follow-through with that promise. And I'm sorry, but as much as I like Steve Bowden, he can't redeem the utter shitshow that is RM, JPop, and deeproot.
Quoted from JodyG:I've designed and built a number of stamping dies. The pinbar probably wouldn't be that hard to build a low production volume die for. Well, you'll need two. One to do the draw operation for the sides, and another to cut the window out. The bigger issue is you are going to probably be looking around a bit for a stamping house that wants to screw around polishing the die and running 120 pieces. The hourly press time rate will reflect this. The edges of the pinbar which wrap around the sides is going to be a bitch to keep straight in a draw forming operation. They might be better off blanking it with notches in the corners, forming it, welding the seam, and then grinding/polishing it out. Thats 3 dies now. Or maybe just laser cut the blanks. This is going to get salty for such a low volume of parts, and further proves why reinventing the wheel is costly.
It's not complicated, however a lockdown bar is about 1.5mm of CARBON steel, and it's not just a cutting die but a forming die. I recently had a project at work for a cutting die for 2.5mm stainless (which is pretty soft) and that tool was $40k. it's the reason homepin switched to plastic, they paid for a die, and the vendor said "sorry, our press doesn't have enough tonnage, here's your tool back"
Quoted from DakotaMike:I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
WTF.... I can't mark that low enough.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The hype copy that deep root put out about the pinbar was hilarious and reminded me of those "as seen on tv" ads where someone sets fire to their kitchen trying to make toast, or floods their entire bathroom while trying to brush their teeth, or destroys a 20 pound turkey because basting it is so difficult with traditional kitchen tools.
"Are you tired of breaking your knuckles every time you try to adjust the volume on your pinball machine? Are you sick of driving yourself crazy trying to remember what all FOUR buttons do? Are you flummoxed by having to attend a 6 month college course just so you can muster the brain power needed to turn your game from coin to free play? Who are you, Albert Einstein?!?"
"WELL NOW THERE'S A SOLUTION!!!!"
The 4 button system and windows menu is cheap, simple, time-tested, idiot proof, works perfectly, and has an incredibly low failure rate. If it breaks, it's after 30 years of service and dozens of beer spills. And even then, anybody with even a cursory ability to work on pinball games can easily replace it or hack it so you can still make adjustments.
The pinbar is absolutely ridiculous.
If that Pinbar is gonna cost as much as I think it will then they have better find a way to monetize the damn thing. Video poker or video slots during your pinball game anyone ?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:There's a reason people make fun of the Homepin plastic lockdown bars.
That's possibly the highest stress component of any pinball machine, constantly getting smacked, cracked, sat on, cigarette burned, screwed on, etc. Wouldn't really go along with Deep Root's "we are building the most fabulous, best designed and built machines in the history of all machines ever made and the rest of you are all morons for not doing what we are doing" ethos and marketing if they started taking cues from Homepin.
The real problem is that Pinbar is incredibly stupid in concept, design, and execution, and it shouldn't exist.
While I agree the pinbar is a stupid idea, and I know nothing about manufacturing, I'm sure it could be made out of some sort of plastic that would hold up to on location abuse. But like you said it probably wouldn't meet Robert's standards on the pinball machine that will never be produced (at least in large quantities)
Quoted from toyotaboy:I'm guessing the pinbar's original intent was to make servicing easy (and it's not inside a dark and cramped coin door). However, as many have said, this could have EASILY been replicated by adding a bluetooth module, pay a software guy half a year to develop a really nice app and you'd have nearly the same experience. In fact possibly a better one because if each player creates an "app login", then you'd never have to enter your name ever again, it would just recognize who you were. In fact, you could probably have all the data at your fingertips anywhere in the world (what's my scores? how far did I get into that last game, etc). I bet this is the route that JJP goes down, they even back updated wonka to allow bluetooth and wifi (you do have to buy your own modules, but they are off the shelf from amazon for $10).
I don't know if Robert was afraid that somehow someone would start hacking the pinball machine remotely? Or he just had this concept in his head that everything needed to be interfaced on the machine so he could have purchasable content in the game (more revenue). Either way I bet every single game coming off the line either has issues from the get-go with the pinbar, or at the very least a few months down the road after a few hundred plays. Sure sounds like this is still in development, and something major like a user interface with inputs needs to be heavily tested before you start building production games. They should already have some sort of text fixture that just has a robot finger touching every section of the screen over and over, and at the end of the day they should be verifying every section of the touchscreen still functions.
One word... "Interactive"
The more you have things like DLC, microtransactions, profiles, etc... the more screen space you want for that digital content. If you put all that on your phone, its hard to claim you own that industry game changer 
Quoted from tslayer71:I'm sure it could be made out of some sort of plastic that would hold up to on location abuse.
They should go 1950s old-school and make them out of wood. The game is “Retro Atomic”, after all.
Quoted from DakotaMike:I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake.
found this home movie footage showing how parents are raising todays future entrepreneurs.
Quoted from flynnibus:One word... "Interactive"
The more you have things like DLC, microtransactions, profiles, etc... the more screen space you want for that digital content. If you put all that on your phone, its hard to claim you own that industry game changer
Imagine locking a ball and having to watch an ad before playing again
Quoted from DakotaMike:I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake. I don't want egomaniacs who manage to get some cash behind them through either graft, inheritance, or dumb-luck to succeed.
We've got plenty of pinball manufacturers now. More than enough with Stern, JJP, CGC, API, and Spooky. Plus, we've got P3 Multi, The PB Bros, Dutch, and Haggis to name a few more small-run guys. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say we've got too many pinball manufacturers right now. I'd love to see a few of these companies team-up or merge together. They could increase overall volume to reduce their costs and overhead, and maybe we'd actually see more than 1 game a year from a company besides Stern.
The only reason I'd even half-want deeproot to succeed is so that Zidware people can be made whole, assuming that RM actually intends to follow-through with that promise. And I'm sorry, but as much as I like Steve Bowden, he can't redeem the utter shitshow that is RM, JPop, and deeproot.
Couldn’t agree more.
I want good things to happen to good, smart people.
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:Imagine locking a ball and having to watch an ad before playing again
Only thing worse would be waiting for that ad to load
Flensburg
Quoted from DakotaMike:I actually DO want deeproot to fail
Quoted from DakotaMike:a controversial hot take
That’s not a controversial hottake esp not with the mellow „zidware customers need to get full“ in the end. A sharp take would have been to let every customer lose every penny as example to not invest and trust in Jpop/deeproot. At least you were emotional.
I’m also emotional on Jpop.
Jpop does not use a computer to design a table. He dwizzles his finger in the air to make the shots flow. Fantastic. That’s art.
Jpop needs a nasty impressario like RM to shine. Like some of the best soccer players have the most obnoxious managers.
Jpop wants and needs a negative hateful climate where his art will push through and overcomes overcomes so you roll over the carpet in joy and enlightenment.
Will buy the whole Jpop tryptichon = RAZA xtra with all xtras (also pinpot) locked in day/minute 1, most xpensive featurefull AIW and MG as soon as order banks open. I lost hope in 2016 the world ever sees one of those would have paid for a tour ticket through JPops workshop like some zidware customers enjoyed with all swhizzle glitzy shine and bubble I can tell my grandchildren of.
Quoted from Makakka:That’s not a controversial hottake esp not with the mellow „zidware customers need to get full“ in the end. A sharp take would have been to let every customer lose every penny as example to not invest and trust in Jpop/deeproot. At least you were emotional.
I’m also emotional on Jpop.
Jpop does not use a computer to design a table. He dwizzles his finger in the air to make the shots flow. Fantastic. That’s art.
Jpop needs a nasty impressario like RM to shine. Like some of the best soccer players have the most obnoxious managers.
Jpop wants and needs a negative hateful climate where his art will push through and overcomes overcomes so you roll over the carpet in joy and enlightenment.
Will buy the whole Jpop tryptichon = RAZA xtra with all xtras (also pinpot) locked in day/minute 1, most xpensive featurefull AIW and MG as soon as order banks open. I lost hope in 2016 the world ever sees one of those would have paid for a tour ticket through JPops workshop like some zidware customers enjoyed with all swhizzle glitzy shine and bubble I can tell my grandchildren of.
Jpop has always been propped up by others more talented....
Quoted from Makakka:would have paid for a tour ticket through JPops workshop like some zidware customers enjoyed with all swhizzle glitzy shine and bubble I can tell my grandchildren of
But would you have paid $8000 for this once-in-a-lifetime tour as that’s all most folks got for their money, plus maybe a t-shirt if you were one of the extremely lucky ones? I can think of a lot more memorable ways to blow that money 
Quoted from DakotaMike:I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake. I don't want egomaniacs who manage to get some cash behind them through either graft, inheritance, or dumb-luck to succeed.
We've got plenty of pinball manufacturers now. More than enough with Stern, JJP, CGC, API, and Spooky. Plus, we've got P3 Multi, The PB Bros, Dutch, and Haggis to name a few more small-run guys. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say we've got too many pinball manufacturers right now. I'd love to see a few of these companies team-up or merge together. They could increase overall volume to reduce their costs and overhead, and maybe we'd actually see more than 1 game a year from a company besides Stern.
The only reason I'd even half-want deeproot to succeed is so that Zidware people can be made whole, assuming that RM actually intends to follow-through with that promise. And I'm sorry, but as much as I like Steve Bowden, he can't redeem the utter shitshow that is RM, JPop, and deeproot.
I don't know about Wanting them to fail - hate to see anybody get burned on their deposits and would like to see the zidware refugees get a game.
But, if this company is in the last stages of cardiac failure it would be better to call it and be done for those effected. Looks like they might be on life support at this stage and low odds of recovery.
However I am not a pinball Doctor.
The PinBar is old man thinking "kids like screens let's put one on a pinball so they'll play it!"
Wrong. Millenials and zoomers like pinball because it's a retro relic from the past. A game represented by mechanical action, it's a reprieve from their phones and digital world. Much like how boomers were obsessed with cowboys kids now are fascinated by tape decks, record players, anything mechanical from the past.
Robert could have chosen to put the money and innovation into the game itself but no, he zeroed in on the PinBar. John can't innovate he can only steal, which is why RAZA is a static turd with nothing interesting interacting with the ball.
That's the magic of Pinball not a f'ing LCD.
Quoted from benheck:The PinBar is old man thinking "kids like screens let's put one on a pinball so they'll play it
Screen_Shot_2017_07_13_at_1.09.20_PM.0.jpeg (resized).jpgQuoted from NoQuarters:Looks like they might be on life support at this stage and low odds of recovery.
However I am not a pinball Doctor.
Good thing you added that caveat.
I figure Robert was thisclose to suing you for practicing medicine without a license.
Quoted from jawjaw:Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?
Competition is the worst thing that ever happened to pinball!
When there was only one pinball company NIB games were $3800!!!
I mean yeah the choices were Indiana Jones and CSI but still, I don't see how this has been an overall improvement!
Quoted from jawjaw:Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?
That’s a very poor reading and interpretation of his post.
And “dozens of people” don’ work there. It’s probably around 3 these days. And we already know they don’t get paid, because that’s how RM rolls.
And the customers losing “thousands” lost that $$ to Jpop 8 years ago. Anyone who actually gave money to CheepFoot deserves what they get, including nothing.
And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.
I think that about covers it.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:That’s a very poor reading and interpretation of his post.
And “dozens of people” don’ work there. It’s probably around 3 these days. And we already know they don’t get paid, because that’s how RM rolls.
And the customers losing “thousands” lost that $$ to Jpop 8 years ago. Anyone who actually gave money to CheepFoot deserves what they get, including nothing.
And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.
I think that about covers it.
Beat me by 10 minutes.
Quoted from jawjaw:Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?
“Dozens” is a stretch. The customers have already lost their money and there is plenty of competition already.
Next....
Edit - damn, too late.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:That’s a very poor reading and interpretation of his post.
And “dozens of people” don’ work there. It’s probably around 3 these days. And we already know they don’t get paid, because that’s how RM rolls.
And the customers losing “thousands” lost that $$ to Jpop 8 years ago. Anyone who actually gave money to CheepFoot deserves what they get, including nothing.
And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.
I think that about covers it.
They deserve to lose money? Wow. Ok. Don't think I am misinterpreting anything here. Pretty clear how you guys roll.
Seems the pinbar is the boat anchor around deep roots neck, why not just pitch it, return to the standard lock bar or bar with button and give rasa a chance to be produced?
Quoted from luvthatapex2:Seems the pinbar is the boat anchor around deep roots neck, why not just pitch it, return to the standard lock bar or bar with button and give rasa a chance to be produced?
Deep root cares too much about the welfare of the pinball community to allow any more knuckles to be smashed by people trying to adjust their volume, or to allow even one more pinhead to be driven to the insane asylum grappling with an arcane, impossible to understand menu system.
The Bizarre and dangerous four button menu system of old will claim no more victims! Not on their watch!
Quoted from luvthatapex2:Seems the pinbar is the boat anchor around deep roots neck, why not just pitch it, return to the standard lock bar or bar with button and give rasa a chance to be produced?
Might be time to burn the PinBras.
Screenshot_20210313-184110_Chrome (resized).jpgQuoted from TheFamilyArcade:And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.
Does competition in marketing BS count?
Quoted from benheck:Millenials and zoomers like pinball because it's a retro relic from the past.
Millennials.
Can we talk about something more interesting? When is the Ben Heck Show revival? YouTube has been taken over by couples videos since you left.
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