Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
Quoted from jawjaw:I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
Yes. In other news water is wet...
Quoted from jawjaw:Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game
18 months, and they tell customers that up front to set expectations. In fact, in the time that deeproot was originally set to start producing games back in early March 2020, spooky has managed to build over 500 games.
Deeproot makes the claim they are going to make more games than any manufacturer in history, then delay delay delay, then only get 120 orders, then delay delay delay.
Quoted from jawjaw:I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
If you have been following this thread you would know it is way more than just manufacturing delays. None of those other company's you compare them to have the *horrible* public relations they have, nor the Inspector Clouseau methods.
Sure those other company's have had their missteps but their overall conduct and history allows them the benefit of doubt.
For the sake of our Pinside brothers that have a stake in Deeproot, I hope they can turn this all around and give us something to cheer about. As of today I see nothing to hang my hat on.
Quoted from jawjaw:I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
Everyone knows this.
The problem is with their management promising delivery dates, then failing, then throwing everyone a ticket to ride the excuse train without any factual proof that anything is being produced.
This is grade 10 business plan class project stuff..
My dog at my homework. Again...
Quoted from Mr68:If you have been following this thread you would know it is way more than just manufacturing delays. None of those other company's you compare them to have the *horrible* public relations they have, nor the Inspector Clouseau methods.
Sure those other company's have all had their missteps but their over all conduct and history allows them the benefit of doubt.
For the sake of our Pinside brothers that have a stake in Deeproot, I hope they can turn this all around and give us something to cheer about. As of today I see nothing to hang my hat on.
Yes, thank you for adding this context. What I really meant to say is if you even read back a few pages it should be pretty apparent why DR is getting this special treatment.
The RAZA thread seems to be in full on "shoot the messenger" mode. That most recent update is not particularly confidence inspiring.
Quoted from jawjaw:I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
You are just saying “everyone takes a long time” and closing your eyes to everything else. Literally no one has had the same journey that deeproot has had. And the only one who has even been close to the number of stretches, walkbacks, and disasterous bellyflops was andrew heighway. And we know how that ended once the veil of secrecy was lifted.
Well.. jpop would probably be a second... but he was mostly about deception
Quoted from PinballManiac40:And it does give me that time. I'm out of room, even having 8 games on loan. What's your point? To make fun of everyone there? Thanks for your support.
We’ve been there ourselves. The hope and optimism. Worked out one out of 4 times for me. That was 2013 JJP WOZECLE showed up. 3 year wait.
Other times, nope. Waste of time and money. DR has had opportunities to gather resources. Next few months will determine their state of production. After that it turns into a suckers bet and optimism will become misplaced I’m afraid.
Quoted from benheck:Involvement of John can't be overstated, even by me.
This is Zidware 2.0 all over again where all they care about is the FUN part of pinball (design) not the brutal awful nightmare that is production.
Ben, maybe the glasses they’re wearing are too Rose colored. Hope is a hard thing to overcome with logic.
Man oh man I’d love to be completely wrong about this.
John should have zero involvement with any planning stages after design. What’s his role in DR again?
Quoted from underlord:We’ve been there ourselves. The hope and optimism. Worked out one out of 4 times for me. That was 2013 JJP WOZECLE showed up. 3 year wait.
Yep. Glad it all worked out for you. I was on WOZECLE as well.
Quoted from benheck:Involvement of John can't be overstated, even by me.
This is Zidware 2.0 all over again where all they care about is the FUN part of pinball (design) not the brutal awful nightmare that is production.
That was also my thought.. but how involved is John now ? Did he even move to Texas or is he still in Chicago ? If the latter he can't be that involved anymore and it's all decisions by Robert (who may have been put on the wrong course from the beginning byJohn)
I remember talking to JPOP many years ago as he was making his sales pitch to me on RAZA. John made the comment that as the first Zidware customers it was the Magic Girl buyers that were “Wearing the hardhats“ for the construction of his new company and of their games (MG).
Now it appears that those hardhats have been passed on to the RAZA 2.0 buyers, I very much hope that in the end it works out better for them than it did for us Zidware customers. I believe that the DR customers will get their games, it’s just gunna take time.
I wish DR success, as they now have in their possession the hard earned money of this community.
Quoted from woodworker:I am tired.
Hope Zidware customers get their games.
[quoted image]
FUCKING
GOLD.
Quoted from woodworker:I am tired of posting every time somebody walks into this thread and says "What's the big deal?" or "Why so negative?", so I went ahead and created a little "Starter Pack" for those that need to play catch up. Hope this helps! It has already been UL and CE certified so we're good to go!!!
Hope Zidware customers get their games.
[quoted image]
LMAO! Not sure why this can to mind...
The very fact that they set a price, took deposits, and set an external/internal deadline before they even knew what the fixed costs are, let alone sourcing the parts and obtaining final quotes is production operations suicide.
Quoted from Methos:The very fact that they set a price, took deposits, and set an external/internal deadline before they even knew what the fixed costs are, let alone sourcing the parts and obtaining final quotes is production operations suicide.
Well, that was the model that sank Jack on WoZ... but newbs will still tell you he just 'underpriced it'... lol
Quoted from woodworker:I am tired of posting every time somebody walks into this thread and says "What's the big deal?" or "Why so negative?", so I went ahead and created a little "Starter Pack" for those that need to play catch up. Hope this helps! It has already been UL and CE certified so we're good to go!!!
Hope Zidware customers get their games.
[quoted image]
You guys don't have to beat me up like everyone else. I know about the hatred of jpop, counting cars in parking lot, and all the big talk. Pinball is easy, pinbar, octo manufacturing and all that. I have even seen and played the prototype. I am familiar. Starter pack is cute. Always fun to rub someone's failures in their face and tell them "I told you so". BTW - weather was a serious issue done here that caused a lot of problems. Not sure that is an excuse to delay for months but it was someone I have never seen in my lifetime living in this area.
Quoted from aeneas:That was also my thought.. but how involved is John now ? Did he even move to Texas or is he still in Chicago ? If the latter he can't be that involved anymore and it's all decisions by Robert (who may have been put on the wrong course from the beginning byJohn)
John moved down there. So much of this is "so John" - it can't be overstated how much of a factor that is.
Quoted from benheck:John moved down there. So much of this is "so John" - it can't be overstated how much of a factor that is.
Robert (and many others) have stated that John is a creative force who can only flourish when properly managed. This means that Jpop's manager (not Jpop himself) is responsible for deeproot's failures. Robert should fire whoever John reports to. Hold them accountable.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Robert (and many others) have stated that John is a creative force who can only flourish when properly managed. This means that Jpop's manager (not Jpop himself) is responsible for deeproot's failures. Robert should totally fire whoever that is. Hold them accountable.
That's the issue... Willy Wonka won't fire himself.
Should have done it two years ago.
Quoted from woodworker:I am tired of posting every time somebody walks into this thread and says "What's the big deal?" or "Why so negative?", so I went ahead and created a little "Starter Pack" for those that need to play catch up. Hope this helps! It has already been UL and CE certified so we're good to go!!!
Hope Zidware customers get their games.
[quoted image]
ROASTED
Quoted from flynnibus:That's the issue... Willy Wonka won't fire himself.
Should have done it two years ago.
Bad comparison. Wonka's factory had an assembly line.
Quoted from benheck:All this talk of John makes me miss hanging out with Joe Balcer at conventions. He tells such great stories (like how they fixed Houdini)
You got a cliffs notes version for us?
Quoted from jawjaw:You guys don't have to beat me up like everyone else. I know about the hatred of jpop, counting cars in parking lot, and all the big talk. Pinball is easy, pinbar, octo manufacturing and all that. I have even seen and played the prototype. I am familiar. Starter pack is cute. Always fun to rub someone's failures in their face and tell them "I told you so". BTW - weather was a serious issue done here that caused a lot of problems. Not sure that is an excuse to delay for months but it was someone I have never seen in my lifetime living in this area.
Robert has rubbed his own failures in the pinball community’s face. In the “sewer” if you will.
Quoted from benheck:All this talk of John makes me miss hanging out with Joe Balcer at conventions. He tells such great stories (like how they fixed Houdini)
I would pay raza pre-order prices to hear those stories
Quoted from Methos:The very fact that they set a price, took deposits, and set an external/internal deadline before they even knew what the fixed costs are, let alone sourcing the parts and obtaining final quotes is production operations suicide.
I actually have a much greater appreciation for this than most having sat in my own startup manufacturing hell. I don’t think this is particularly germane to DR, but pretty much all first time manufacturers. The difference is 1) I didn’t go claiming things are easy when they are not 2) I didn’t ask for deposits for indeterminate shipping dates 3) I didn’t let people who weren’t getting the job done fester, I fired them 4) I had patience for when I might deliver 5) I didn’t promise delivery timetables I was not certain I could meet. And quite honestly if my startup at the time had enough money to fire my own ass and put someone more experienced in charge I would have done it if it meant more streamlined delivery and greater chance of success. There just wasn’t anyone else willing to work for $0. DR clearly hasn’t a damn clue what it is doing or else it wouldn’t have promised March delivery dates with no manufacturing line available. How does one solve this ? 1) Bring in someone who has a clue about manufacturing 2) Stop running ones mouth off and promising what they clearly don’t have the capability right now to deliver
Robert did stop the promising part in the last email he sent to the pre-order folks. At least he said he would keep them updated each month and will email them again at the end of March. That is probably a good idea since there should be news to post at the end of each month that goes by. Some of the folks in the pre-order thread cannot stand this thread because of the negativity. I sat 6 years waiting for Wayne to deliver MM and fortunately was refunded my $2500 deposit when I finally had enough. That was the very first pre-order and my very last. JPOP almost got me with AIW, but the model of only making a few of any game was a HUGE red flag for me. The cost to make tooling and specialty parts requires big sales numbers to make sense. The entire business model kept me from making another mistake. I'm in for an Alien and I'm not worried when the distributor holds my money and not the business making the game. It's like having my money in escrow and I can most definitely live with that. I wish Robert had taken that route instead of taking money and telling the buyers they assume all the risk if a game is not produced. Probably would have sold more units with that approach.
Negativity? A lot of people in this thread are quite positive DR will deliver nothing. 
This is the “Fun Vee” thread and the other thread is the Ho hum vee.
No gang signs!
Quoted from pbwizard14:Robert did stop the promising part in the last email he sent to the pre-order folks. At least he said he would keep them updated each month and will email them again at the end of March. That is probably a good idea since there should be news to post at the end of each month that goes by. Some of the folks in the pre-order thread cannot stand this thread because of the negativity. I sat 6 years waiting for Wayne to deliver MM and fortunately was refunded my $2500 deposit when I finally had enough. That was the very first pre-order and my very last. JPOP almost got me with AIW, but the model of only making a few of any games was a HUGE red flag for me. The cost to make tooling and specialty parts requires big sales numbers to make sense. The entire business model kept me from making another mistake. I'm in for an Alien and I'm not worried when the distributor holds my money and not the business making the game. It's like having my money in escrow and I can most definitely live with that. I wish Robert had taken that route instead of taking money and telling the buyers they assume all the risk if a game is not produced. Probably would have sold more units with that approach.
I was with you through that time with Wayne. He refunded the money, so folks got made whole again.
I had spoken with him many times and lots of emails. Everyone was frustrated about MM manufacturing. That was the toughest part. Seems nothings changed over the years in pinball.
Quoted from underlord:I was with you through that time with Wayne. He refunded the money, so folks got made whole again.
I had spoken with him many times and lots of emails. Everyone was frustrated about MM manufacturing. That was the toughest part. Seems nothings changed over the years in pinball.
At least Wayne didn't totally screw us and he did sell his rights for Williams/Bally to Planetary who did remake MM. I have absolutely no hard feelings towards Wayne even though things didn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Quoted from jawjaw:You guys don't have to beat me up like everyone else. I know about the hatred of jpop, counting cars in parking lot, and all the big talk. Pinball is easy, pinbar, octo manufacturing and all that. I have even seen and played the prototype. I am familiar. Starter pack is cute. Always fun to rub someone's failures in their face and tell them "I told you so". BTW - weather was a serious issue done here that caused a lot of problems. Not sure that is an excuse to delay for months but it was someone I have never seen in my lifetime living in this area.
But the starter pack isn’t there to rub Roberts face in it, it’s just so this doesn’t have to be repeated every couple pages when someone new comes in and says ‘hey why all the sore asses and negativity? Robert seems like a solid dude, give him a chance’
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Robert has rubbed his own failures in the pinball community’s face. In the “sewer” if you will.
I'm aware of his big talk. But saying he started it sounds rather childish tbh. I just don't get all the hateful energy directed at bringing down DR day after day after day after day. Pretty sure everyone on pinside knows what's going on with DR or adult enough to figure it out.
Quoted from underlord:I was with you through that time with Wayne. He refunded the money, so folks got made whole again.
I had spoken with him many times and lots of emails. Everyone was frustrated about MM manufacturing. That was the toughest part.
I wasn't involved but I very well remember reading all of that drama as it unfolded. Even at the darkest hour and you being out gunned on the internet, you were a class act the entire way. I also remember you going above and beyond for everyone and not just yourself.
No one was more pleased than me when you got your money back.
Quoted from pbwizard14:Some of the folks in the pre-order thread cannot stand this thread because of the negativity.
I've seen posts in that thread telling others to not even visit this thread.
It actually seems like there is a lot of this going on over there:
head-in-sand (resized).jpg
Quoted from pookycade:I actually have a much greater appreciation for this than most having sat in my own startup manufacturing hell. I don’t think this is particularly germane to DR, but pretty much all first time manufacturers. The difference is 1) I didn’t go claiming things are easy when they are not 2) I didn’t ask for deposits for indeterminate shipping dates 3) I didn’t let people who weren’t getting the job done fester, I fired them 4) I had patience for when I might deliver 5) I didn’t promise delivery timetables I was not certain I could meet. And quite honestly if my startup at the time had enough money to fire my own ass and put someone more experienced in charge I would have done it if it meant more streamlined delivery and greater chance of success. There just wasn’t anyone else willing to work for $0. DR clearly hasn’t a damn clue what it is doing or else it wouldn’t have promised March delivery dates with no manufacturing line available. How does one solve this ? 1) Bring in someone who has a clue about manufacturing 2) Stop running ones mouth off and promising what they clearly don’t have the capability right now to deliver
Stop manufacturing hate... or something like that...
Quoted from jawjaw:Pretty sure everyone on pinside knows what's going on with DR or adult enough to figure it out.
I literally LOL'd at this... because obviously many don't, or just have such high hopes for a game that they're willing to risk burning 7k up just to try.
Quoted from jawjaw:I'm aware of his big talk. But saying he started it sounds rather childish tbh. I just don't get all the hateful energy directed at bringing down DR day after day after day after day. Pretty sure everyone on pinside knows what's going on with DR or adult enough to figure it out.
Hateful energy? Hardly. I’m laughing my ass off at all this. I wish no one ill will, but honestly, I don’t care if the RAZA buyers get their games or not.
After 11 full years of sham after sham and skim after scam concerning multiple games by multiple people (and sometimes the same person FOUR different times...cough, JPOP, cough) - all FULLY chronicled here on Pinside - if people want to go in on this venture with their eyes wide shut...who really cares? I sure don’t. I’m just enjoying the sheer entertainment value. Which is off the charts and just gets better with every missive from RM esq.
I know I’m not alone and I doubt I’m even in the minority.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Hateful energy? Hardly. I’m laughing my ass off at all this. I wish no one ill will, but honestly, I don’t care if the RAZA buyers get their games or not.
After 11 full years of sham after sham and skim after scam concerning multiple games by multiple people (and sometimes the same person FOUR different times...cough, JPOP, cough) - all FULLY chronicled here on Pinside - if people want to go in on this venture with their eyes wide shut...who really cares? I sure don’t. I’m just enjoying the sheer entertainment value. Which is off the charts and just gets better with every missive from RM esq.
I know I’m not alone and I doubt I’m even in the minority.
This!!! You nailed it sir.
Quoted from flynnibus:Stop manufacturing hate... or something like that...
At least we're manufacturing SOMETHING.
Look, we all need to give RM a break... if it wasn’t for the Texas weather, RAZA would be shipping long ago!
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Getting worried now that Food Truck may be delayed?
Worried that by the time it gets here all the food items will have expired and gone bad.
Quoted from RobT:I've seen posts in that thread telling others to not even visit this thread.
It actually seems like there is a lot of this going on over there:
[quoted image]
Brings back memories...
RobT (resized).PNGWanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
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