Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from benheck:You do realize there's a pretty good chance they don't end up making ANY games right?
Most people don’t understand the throwing good money after bad problem. Hence, they don’t realize that Haggis has a better chance of producing games than Deeproot does if only because of more manageable sunk costs and lower requirements for return on investment.
Quoted from benheck:You do realize there's a pretty good chance they don't end up making ANY games right?
Yup, or a very small handful before before it's all done.... But zero is very plausible.
Quoted from mrbillishere:That a fact?
Do tell...
Its true, cointaker has mentioned it themselves many times on FB. They were not offered any sort of goodwill agreement despite losing thousands to zidware orders.
Quoted from denoument:This is one of those games I've always wanted but people warn me that they are hard to maintain and work on. Really fun to play.
Quoted from hank527:This company is nothing but a joke. RM owes Cointaker a ton of money as well. I do not trust those who don’t pay their debts.
Are you confusing deeproot with zidware?
Zidware owing money to Cointaker does not make that Deeproot's debt.
That's why Zidware is trying to declare bankruptcy...
Quoted from pookycade:Most people don’t understand the throwing good money after bad problem. Hence, they don’t realize that Haggis has a better chance of producing games than Deeproot does if only because of more manageable sunk costs and lower requirements for return on investment.
Haggis seems to have lovely intentions just like everybody else but it’s the same old
Story. Send thousands of dollars overseas and hope one day you get a pinball machine.
The ASOA thread tells you all you need to know about why it’s never a good idea to pay for a promise rather than a game that can ship this week.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Haggis seems to have lovely intentions just like everybody else but it’s the same old
Story. Send thousands of dollars overseas and hope one day you get a pinball machine.
The ASOA thread tells you all you need to know about what it’s never a good idea to pay for a promise rather than a game that can ship this week.
This is absolutely a common MO. American Pinball I think was one of the few who escaped this business model.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Who needs actual games to play when you have INNOVATION?
Correction. PICTURES of INNOVATION.
Quoted from flynnibus:Are you confusing deeproot with zidware?
Zidware owing money to Cointaker does not make that Deeproot's debt.
That's why Zidware is trying to declare bankruptcy...
This is true, however, this is baggage that DR took on when bringing on JPOP and trying to revive zidware assets. So yes, no crime has been committed, let me be very clear on that, but it doesn't mean thats not another thing many people will hold against DR and I don't blame them.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:This thread was started over 3 years ago and has almost 16,000 posts. Do we have a Deeproot pinball machine delivered yet?
Well, the first thread deeproot thread was this one started back in September of 2017
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-resurfaces
Then Robert step out of the shadows and did an interview with TWIP to try to change the narrative (and TWIP created this thread), were Robert started what has been his trademark of throwing shade, threatening lawsuits, and making outrageous commitments and promises (that they will then consistently miss).
If you need a good laugh, go read the first interview . . .
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/exclusive-interview-deeproot-next-misadventure-pinball-revolution/
The sad thing is 3+ years later, after failing on all of this and other stuff he said, he has not changed.
You have to laugh about the 5 Days of Deeproot, as it is so emblematic of Deeproot and Robert; putting the cart before the horse. They were already planning the event to wow us with their brilliance, when nothing existed. deeproot has been working at this for 4 years, and all we have seen is a series of poorly executed product launches, a re-branded shipping crate, a new style lock down bar that will do little to enhance actual game play, but likely makes contact with the game less enjoyable and a first release, that they have so little confidence in, that they throw a Hail Mary with a short order window in hope of creating FOMO. And even then, they could not even sell more than AMH, which was basically a couple of guys in a garage, done in a fraction of the time and a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the budget. They did sell more units than Mafia, so I'll give them that.
I'm sure the deeproot investors are really happy about how things have gone!
For the rest of us, who don' have money on the line (and deeproot does get some credit fo paying off some of Jpops debts), it has been some of the cheapest entertainment in pinball.
Quoted from Haymaker:Its not hard to maintain or work on. Get a Black Hole man, its a great game. Couple mods and they are pretty solid.
Well you convinced me. Now I just need to find one.
Quoted from benheck:You do realize there's a pretty good chance they don't end up making ANY games right?
To be fair deeproot did refund a bunch of people about a year ago so not sure why they would all of a sudden not refund the people they promised this go around. I can't believe they would take hundreds of thousands of dollars if they didn't think they were going to make games. Do you really believe deeproot is here to scam people? Just wouldn't make sense. I still have confidence they will.come through and surprise everyone but obviously taking much longer than they expected
Quoted from PoppyCock:To be fair deeproot did refund a bunch of people about a year ago so not sure why they would all of a sudden not refund the people they promised this go around. I can't believe they would take hundreds of thousands of dollars if they didn't think they were going to make games. Do you really believe deeproot is here to scam people? Just wouldn't make sense. I still have confidence they will.come through and surprise everyone but obviously taking much longer than they expected
Scam people ? No, of course not. Have a potentially dubious cash position and trying to limp to a finish line of sorts ? Quite possibly. Few businesses set out to scam people. Many businesses though go into bankruptcy all the time and take investor and customer money with it on the way down. Again I hope they have some solid financial foundation below them, will deliver, and will prove all the naysayers (including myself) wrong. Everyone benefits from that. But optimistic that will be the outcome here ? Uh .... no.
Quoted from Haymaker:This is true, however, this is baggage that DR took on when bringing on JPOP and trying to revive zidware assets. So yes, no crime has been committed, let me be very clear on that, but it doesn't mean thats not another thing many people will hold against DR and I don't blame them.
Yeah, but what you are talking about tho is perception and association - which is hellva different than "owing someone money" and stiffing them which is the other poster's claim.
I think the whole acquisition of zidware stuff is shady - but that will be for the bankruptcy courts to decide for zidware... and none of that stink is going to stick to deeproot. At worst, it is going to cost deeproot more to keep it.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yeah, but what you are talking about tho is perception and association - which is hellva different than "owing someone money" and stiffing them which is the other poster's claim.
I think the whole acquisition of zidware stuff is shady - but that will be for the bankruptcy courts to decide for zidware... and none of that stink is going to stick to deeproot. At worst, it is going to cost deeproot more to keep it.
fair.
Quoted from pookycade:Scam people ? No, of course not. Have a potentially dubious cash position and trying to limp to a finish line of sorts ? Quite possibly. Few businesses set out to scam people. Many businesses though go into bankruptcy all the time and take investor and customer money with it on the way down. Again I hope they have some solid financial foundation below them, will deliver, and will prove all the naysayers (including myself) wrong. Everyone benefits from that. But optimistic that will be the outcome here ? Uh .... no.
Exactly; IF Deeproot was a scam it would be an even more incompetent scam than it is a pinball manufacturer. See the recent ASOA thread for a "less expensive" way to get a few hundred thousand from pinball enthusiasts.
Do I think they have shown every step of the way how clueless they are when it comes to assembling over a hundred unique made to order games? Yes. Prototyping, revealing and taking in money is the "easy" part. And they have made that look so very very hard... how are they supposed to get over the manufacturing hump without screwing that up too?
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Prototyping, revealing and taking in money is the "easy" part. And they have made that look so very very hard
great observation.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Exactly; IF Deeproot was a scam it would be an even more incompetent scam than it is a pinball manufacturer. See the recent ASOA thread for a "less expensive" way to get a few hundred thousand from pinball enthusiasts.
Do I think they have shown every step of the way how clueless they are when it comes to assembling over a hundred unique made to order games? Yes. Prototyping, revealing and taking in money is the "easy" part. And they have made that look so very very hard... how are they supposed to get over the manufacturing hump without screwing that up too?
Yeah but....dynamic scoring!
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Exactly; IF Deeproot was a scam it would be an even more incompetent scam than it is a pinball manufacturer. See the recent ASOA thread for a "less expensive" way to get a few hundred thousand from pinball enthusiasts.
I think if it's a scan, it's a great one. Bilk investors out of millions, sit around, lie, talk shit, and get a nice salary for a few years in the process.
Also there is a lot less risk involved in what DR is doing than just taking someone's money and not giving anything in return, ironically. Couple that with the Shut Up and Take My Money attitude of many collectors and I think we have a winner personally.
While we wait on the joyous unboxing videos that are right around the corner, it could be fun to take a trip down memory lane with some favorite DR gems. I'll start:
"Unlike everyone else in the industry who shows off something shiny and then does the immediate take away, we simply are not going to tell everyone what we’re doing. When the masterpiece is ready, we will unveil it for everyone to enjoy. It is hard to believe that we (who arguably have more capitalization then all the other pinball participants combined and having accomplished the impossible in other industries) would not be able to find a way to do something as easy as pinball."
Quick detour from the funny quotes (there are dozens across the various twip articles alone):
Anyone remember what the hell this was about?
"From October 1, 2018 to December 31, 2018, we will offer some form of relief to those affected customers of Heighway/Pinball Bros and Dutch Pinball who have not received their promised game or other relief. While it won’t make up for the wrongs, it is the right thing to do, and we are sure will be appreciated by the hundreds of affected customers.”
Don't recall any public follow-up on this, but it could have slipped my mind after so many action-packed years. Did anyone ever reach out to DR directly about this?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:While we wait on the joyous unboxing videos that are right around the corner, it could be fun to take a trip down memory lane with some favorite DR gems. I'll start:
"Unlike everyone else in the industry who shows off something shiny and then does the immediate take away, we simply are not going to tell everyone what we’re doing. When the masterpiece is ready, we will unveil it for everyone to enjoy. It is hard to believe that we (who arguably have more capitalization then all the other pinball participants combined and having accomplished the impossible in other industries) would not be able to find a way to do something as easy as pinball."
Savage.
Kaptain Karma always wins.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:While we wait on the joyous unboxing videos that are right around the corner, it could be fun to take a trip down memory lane with some favorite DR gems.
Derp 2 (resized).pngQuoted from deeproot:This was our informal plan, that's not under any NDA. John was to turnover MG and RAZA by July in whatever condition they were in at that time. Then John would 'disappear' for 2 years working on AIW. With RAZA for a release at 692 units by October 2016. MG at 1130 units in 2017. And AIW at 2k units in early 2018. All vendors paid by June 2015. All presales refunded by Feb 2016 for those that chose to not accept delivery (with refunds in part or credits for MSRP less than the amounts John arbitrarily chose at time of machine delivery). Penalty for refund would have been loss of certain 'privileges' (which will remain undisclosed as it is now moot). No real point to worry about any of that now. I wish these new investors the best. They are going to need it.
Lastly, we understand that by disclosing this information, we will open up ample opportunities for many to bash or criticize. No one else (including the few manufacturers today) came up with a solution to completely resolve the JPop dilemma. But at the end of the day not only was this plan realistic, it would have made everyone whole and released three amazing designs into a deserving community proving unlicensed themes can still match or exceed licensed ones. Bash away
RJM dT/dP
I'm sad they didn't move forward with this plan. Bang out production of ~1,800 units from two jpop *designs* while the popster himself "disappears" for two years (!) to efficiently wrap up the AIW transition from decorated cardboard to manufacture-ready pin for a 2k machine run in 2018 Q1. What could possibly go wrong? It's harder to imagine how this wouldn't work out than how it would!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Haggis seems to have lovely intentions just like everybody else but it’s the same old
Story. Send thousands of dollars overseas and hope one day you get a pinball machine.
Haggis are delivering quality Built games .
Damien is a stand up guy and if you order a game , you will get it .
Quoted from flynnibus:Are you confusing deeproot with zidware?
Zidware owing money to Cointaker does not make that Deeproot's debt.
That's why Zidware is trying to declare bankruptcy...
Nope. Talk to Chris. Robert promised to pay them for what they have.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Credit where credit is due, I found a promise actually Robert delivered on:
[quoted image]
Wow, one thing they said came true. That’s awesome.
These posts should have been put out in December.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Important FYI for the RAZA pre-order thread!
[quoted image]
Would some who placed an order with DR disclose daily refund penalty terms? Curious if it's a percentage of the total purchase price or a flat per-day amount.
ROTFLMAO! “Self imposed refund penalty” for late shipment! 
When they acquired the “Silicon Valley-esque” building, did they mean the TV show? 
Gotta love the on-site “heavy manufacture” of raw materials too. 
You couldn’t make it up any funnier if you tried.
Quoted from deeproot:Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
Also don't forget (from the bankruptcy docs) deeproot is now Zidware's largest (and only secured) creditor.
Which means AP and Cointaker are SOL. Deeproot gets all the IP and gotcha patents, the back of PF LCD could certainly allow for some.... Trolling.
I'm guessing Robert ran the refund/goodwill money through Zidware to pull off that trick? Seriously the whole thing stinks like day old fish.
Quoted from benheck:Also don't forget (from the bankruptcy docs) deeproot is now Zidware's largest (and only secured) creditor.
Which means AP and Cointaker are SOL. Deeproot gets all the IP and gotcha patents, the back of PF LCD could certainly allow for some.... Trolling.
I'm guessing Robert ran the refund/goodwill money through Zidware to pull off that trick? Seriously the whole thing stinks like day old fish.
There you go practicing law without a license again!
Don't forget this gem.
Quoted from deeproot:You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Don't forget this gem.
[quoted image]
If they only make a handful of prototype playfields, this could again be legit.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Don't forget this gem.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:If they only make a handful of prototype playfields, this could again be legit.
For firewood?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:For firewood?
It has gotten cold in Texas and I understand places are sold out of it.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Don't forget this gem.
"Quoted from deeproot:
You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF."
Can I get that on a t-shirt?
Quoted from Haymaker:Whatever happened with pintasia and BB's ownership of zidware assets? Did that get straightened out or did Bill just decide it wasn't worth the money to pursue that?
Well, here's one side of the story:
Quoted from deeproot:Mr. Brandes,
On January 31, 2017 Pintasia by and through its President Sabrina Wei entered into a certain Confidential Settlement & Release Agreement with Zidware, Inc. that became effective February 3, 2017. I have possession of the agreement because I am an excepted party to it. It is my understanding through counsel that Zidware satisfactorily performed under the terms of the agreement, and there have been no attempts by Pintasia to claim otherwise. That agreement had very strict confidentiality covenants in which you were a intended party and therefore required to keep them. You have made multiple comments on this public platform in violation of the confidential terms of the agreement, mischaracterizing confidential terms of the agreement, and dishonestly misrepresenting performance by the parties.
You are also in violation of several of the pre-requisites to qualify under the Goodwill Terms. Rather than tell you in private and have you dishonestly report the denial publicly...your Goodwill Terms claim is hereby denied. Your claim is the first, and I hope the last, claim we have to deal with in this fashion.
--Robert J. Mueller, Esq. dT
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:ROTFLMAO! “Self imposed refund penalty” for late shipment!
When they acquired the “Silicon Valley-esque” building, did they mean the TV show?
Gotta love the on-site “heavy manufacture” of raw materials too. You couldn’t make it up any funnier if you tried.
[quoted image]
47000 sq ft and no assembly line ??? Really ??? I guess when they need to build another machine they just take over their company conference room and wheel in the tool and parts cabinet. Or maybe they throw up a tent in the parking lot. Wow.
Quoted from pookycade:47000 sq ft and no assembly line ??? Really ??? I guess when they need to build another machine they just take over their company conference room and wheel in the tool and parts cabinet. Or maybe they throw up a tent in the parking lot. Wow.
I assumed the 47k SF was for the foundry/rolling mill/lumber mill they were setting up for the heavy manufacturing of raw materials. I wonder if they bought their own iron ore mine as well?
Quoted from pookycade:47000 sq ft and no assembly line ??? Really ??? I guess when they need to build another machine they just take over their company conference room and wheel in the tool and parts cabinet. Or maybe they throw up a tent in the parking lot. Wow.
Certainly odd to brag about not having a line but hey it's DR so it's par for the course.
Quoted from Mr68:Well, here's one side of the story:
Who would want to buy a pin from this “Great Guy” Robert Mueller?
Quoted from Mr68:[quoted image]
I get the whole fake it before you make it but, but who exactly was he trying to sell this BS to ? You don’t do this as a smart business move, you do this as being an arrogant SOB that wouldn’t recognize a pinball assembly line from a hole in the ground. It’s like screaming to the world “I’ve got money, look at me”
Quoted from pookycade:I get the whole fake it before you make it but, but who exactly was he trying to sell this BS to ? You don’t do this as a smart business move, you do this as being an arrogant SOB that wouldn’t recognize a pinball assembly line from a hole in the ground. It’s like screaming to the world “I’ve got money, look at me”
Cash rich, wit poor.
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