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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#1501 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from rubberducks:

Anything with something remotely capable costs a ridiculous amount.

Still used by most modern slots.. and in heavy common usage in redemption machines now too. You dismissed as not even of this earth... yet it's common place in the industries where innovation really is happening. Slots and redemptions.

You don't have to have the entire PF glass or the cabinet to make use of these kinds of things. (for instance, look at how the ghost effects were done in GB... localized effects).

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#1502 5 years ago
 
CBM

spfxted

Pinside member

US Saddle River, NJ

12y 147K 24,661 4 9

Interesting article and Tour! I'd love to get behind this company if it weren't for Papadouchebag!

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#1503 5 years ago
 
JAM

Wolfmarsh

Pinside member

12y 134K 10,956

I have a recent pachinko machine and it has a 3D LCD that doesn't require glasses.

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#1504 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from flynnibus:

Still used by most modern slots.. and in heavy common usage in redemption machines now too. You dismissed as not even of this earth... yet it's common place in the industries where innovation really is happening. Slots and redemptions.
You don't have to have the entire PF glass or the cabinet to make use of these kinds of things. (for instance, look at how the ghost effects were done in GB... localized effects).

Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.

A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.

It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.

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#1505 5 years ago
 
DAV

adol75

Pinside member

US San Francisco, CA

5y 57,300 2,078 2

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I have a recent pachinko machine and it has a 3D LCD that doesn't require glasses.

Brand new pachinko machines cost around 5000$ but the annual income is in hundred of billions and game rooms in Japan are required to change all of them every 1 or 3 years (can't remember the exact time but it's short), so second hand machines can be bought for close to nothing. Some machine sell in million units, that industry is on a whole different scale than pinball

In any case I wouldn't put a 3D screen on a pinball machine, I don't think it brings anything to the table and it takes time to the eyes to focus on a 3D image which would make it terribly annoying in game.

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#1506 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,239

Quoted from rubberducks:

Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.
A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.
It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.

You are probably arguing with people I have on ignore... and this would be why

Point being.. technology is out there and in common use depending on how people want to use it.

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#1507 5 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,937 3 14

Quoted from adol75:

second hand machines can be bought for close to nothing

Yet we hardly see any of those machines make it over here, and when they do the sellers want $1k and up. But yes you are right, pachinko is still huge in japan, so are claw machines. People sometimes go to these places as almost like a shopping center. Some take advantage:
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=3SOu_1536002094

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#1508 5 years ago
 
DAV

adol75

Pinside member

US San Francisco, CA

5y 57,300 2,078 2

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Yet we hardly see any of those machines make it over here, and when they do the sellers want $1k and up. But yes you are right, pachinko is still huge in japan, so are claw machines. People sometimes go to these places as almost like a shopping center. Some take advantage:
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=3SOu_1536002094

Don't buy from US importers, it's robbery. Pachinko and Pachislo can be found on Yahoo auctions Japan, and you can use Buyee.jp who can handle pick up, shipping, customs etc... for a small fee.

This beauty is at 130 dollars currently : https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h274417737

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#1509 5 years ago
 
DPR

halflip87

Pinside member

US Glocester, RI

8y 46,150 178 1

Anybody know the status of the offer deeproot was going to make to victims of the Heighway and Dutch disasters?

-Doug

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#1510 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Be interesting to see if deeproot does use new technologies.

Was at this interesting dinner at a Silicon Valley BBQ with Tanio and Jeri Ellsworth about 8 years ago. Pinball of course came up. One of the other people said "Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute"

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#1511 5 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,937 3 14

Quoted from benheck:

Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute

I would imagine wire harnesses are still simpler to design for a game than doing PCB traces (as archaic as it seems to see giant 4'x8' boards with nails in it). But seeing how good even free pcb programs have gotten, I do wonder if it's equal work up front.

benheck have you ever calculated pcb cost (for GI and coils) vs equivalent wiring? Are they comparable without calculating the labor cost savings?

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#1512 5 years ago
 
ROB

RCA1

Pinside+ Addict

US St Joseph, MI

11y 128K 8,681 28 11

Article says cabinet looks conventional, but the head does not.
Some type of Pin2k-ish setup?

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#1513 5 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

Quoted from RCA1:

Article says cabinet looks conventional, but the head does not.
Some type of Pin2k-ish setup?

That would be so awesome w new technology.

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#1514 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from flynnibus:

I guess the slot machine guys are from another planet then?

(Replying to rubberducks) Yes we buy them for $280 for 25” ones. Costs an arm and a leg?

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#1515 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from rubberducks:

Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.
A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.
It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.

Not sure If you are replying to me, but IMO we need to think more creatively. 2 (or ideally 3) levels of transparent screens will allow to “float” things above a playfield, yes. But what if the screen IS the playfield? You can create depth with a flat layer at bottom, a middle layer for plastics and lane guides, and a top layer for big toys, mechs, and ramps. There, 3D without goggles because it actually IS in 3 dimensions. 3D printer slicer software does this x 10,000 right now.

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#1516 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure If you are replying to me, but IMO we need to think more creatively. 2 (or ideally 3) levels of transparent screens will allow to “float” things above a playfield, yes. But what if the screen IS the playfield? You can create depth with a flat layer at bottom, a middle layer for plastics and lane guides, and a top layer for big toys, mechs, and ramps. There, 3D without goggles because it actually IS in 3 dimensions. 3D printer slicer software does this x 10,000 right now.

Thinking creatively won't do anything. Pinball companies don't have R&D budgets that run into the billions.

Per prior posts, neither current transparent LCDs nor OLEDs have fantastic light transmissions properties. Layering them would make it worse. Pixel responsiveness is bad on the LCDs. Low life time, expense and non-availability in large sizes of OLEDs rules them out.

Also, can you imagine how bad it'd be if you developed a fault with or suffered damage to one of the layers?

Deeproot (or anyone else) are right to look for savings and efficiencies where ever they can to reduce build costs and complication, but chasing unicorns is extremely unwise.

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#1517 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from benheck:

"Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute"

"More wires than a Ford Taurus"

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#1518 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

A big roadblock in the advancement of pinball are the customers.

"I hate surface mount!" they un-ironically type into their phones, which would be the size of IBM typewriters were it not for surface mount.

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#1519 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from benheck:

A big roadblock in the advancement of pinball are the customers.

No doubt!

You've got a bunch of people that think Back to the Future and Goonies are still a thing.

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#1520 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from rubberducks:

Thinking creatively won't do anything. Pinball companies don't have R&D budgets that run into the billions.
Per prior posts, neither current transparent LCDs nor OLEDs have fantastic light transmissions properties. Layering them would make it worse. Pixel responsiveness is bad on the LCDs. Low life time, expense and non-availability in large sizes of OLEDs rules them out.
Also, can you imagine how bad it'd be if you developed a fault with or suffered damage to one of the layers?
Deeproot (or anyone else) are right to look for savings and efficiencies where ever they can to reduce build costs and complication, but chasing unicorns is extremely unwise.

I hear ya, but I'm not sure where you're getting costs from. We buy panels of roughly the same size as a pin for about $1K each. So that's a cost per machine of $3,000 or so. Even if the final MSRP is 8K you're still in a good spot.

here's an example of an existing game that uses what I'm talking about. I don't know what this game is exactly, but the screen can be *entirely* full-color (which you don't really see in this video too well), or transparent. There's a little haze where it's not quite as clear as a window, and yes the colors aren't super bright (backlighting or angled sidelighting would help w/ this) :

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#1521 5 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from benheck:

A big roadblock in the advancement of pinball are the customers.
"I hate surface mount!" they un-ironically type into their phones, which would be the size of IBM typewriters were it not for surface mount.

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

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#1522 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

With all due respect to Ben, who certainly does know what he is talking about; pinball machines do not need to be squeezed into tiny enclosures that fit in one’s pocket. But I doubt the surface mount thing is about selling $350 replacement boards - it’s probably just cheaper to have them made in the first place.

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#1523 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component.

Some of you just don't want to support the growth of this hobby, now do you?

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#1524 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

That's Stern using replacement parts as a profit center.

Why can't node boards be repaired?

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#1525 5 years ago
 
BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

9y 99,550 5,463

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

But isn't this really more about the lack of schematics and troubleshooting steps, theory of operation, etc. than about SMD versus through-hole? I'm sure there aren't parts on that board that couldn't be replaced by someone with the right skills and tools but if you don't know WHAT to replace it doesn't matter if it's through-hole or not.

Post last edited 5 years ago: “typo”

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#1526 5 years ago
 
DPT

deeproot

Inactive member

Unknown

9y 36,400 69

Quoted from benheck:

That's Stern using replacement parts as a profit center.
Why can't node boards be repaired?

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

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#1527 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I hear ya, but I'm not sure where you're getting costs from. We buy panels of roughly the same size as a pin for about $1K each. So that's a cost per machine of $3,000 or so. Even if the final MSRP is 8K you're still in a good spot.
here's an example of an existing game that uses what I'm talking about. I don't know what this game is exactly, but the screen can be *entirely* full-color (which you don't really see in this video too well), or transparent. There's a little haze where it's not quite as clear as a window, and yes the colors aren't super bright (backlighting or angled sidelighting would help w/ this) :

A Stern LE's entire BoM is probably well under the $3k mark ...

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#1528 5 years ago
 
MOO

snakesnsparklers

Pinside member

9y 92,800 4,828

Quoted from deeproot:

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

Through-mount components! I mean surface-hole! Wait what

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#1529 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Through-mount components! I mean surface-hole! Wait what

Sounds glorious ...

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#1530 5 years ago
 
GEM

hocuslocus

Pinside+ Pro!

8y 81,800 1,797 13

Quoted from benheck:

That's Stern using replacement parts as a profit center.
Why can't node boards be repaired?

it mainly because the skill set and tools needed to repair surface mount are a little more specialized. I'm pretty new to surface mount, not against the tech at all.

I've found that getting part numbers to these tiny parts is a lot more difficult then the larger components (with the part number usually written on it). It's like pulling teeth trying to get information sometimes. There are ways to find out what the part number is by form factor, measurements and how it looks, but it'd make it so much easier if they listed it on a sheet or something. Maybe there is an easier way to fine out part numbers, but I don't know it.

With spike it seems like there is a veil of secrecy, so your forced to buy replacement parts when needed.

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#1531 5 years ago
 
AER

OnTheSnap

Pinside member

US Los Gatos, CA

6y 53,550 590 6

Quoted from deeproot:

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

Yah, simple modularity where it makes sense would be nice.

Anyway - looking forward to seeing the first D/R machine go for sale. BTTF and Magic girl are both exciting machines for sure. Maybe next summer will be the real deal we can buy.

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#1532 5 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from deeproot:

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

The benefits of surface mount are plentiful:

1) Can get actual, modern parts (a lot of through hole is now obsolete or gone)
2) Can be placed by robot
3) Smaller
4) Won't tilt under vibrations and cause a "fix it" kit to be sent out which is basically a zip tie.

Through hole only has 1 plus - it's easy for noobs.

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#1533 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from benheck:

Can be placed by robot

All we need now are the robots that can fix this shit.

tallman_05 (resized).jpgtallman_05 (resized).jpg
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#1534 5 years ago
 
ACK

c508

Pinside member

8y 83,400 991

Quoted from o-din:

All we need now are the robots that can fix this shit.[quoted image]

Wow someone made a vid1900 action figure!

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#1535 5 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,427 249

Quoted from deeproot:

deeproot is announcing the addition of Steven Bowden to its ‘Future Worlds with deeproot Pinball’ seminar panel at 5:15pm on Friday 10/19 at Pinball Expo.
Steve has only been with us for six weeks but has pounded out more ingenious rule script than the best in the biz. It’s been a treat to see a master at work.
— Robert dT

Okay, this is a good hire. Steve is awesome. Now you just need to shed that Zidware

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#1536 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from c508:

Wow someone made a vid1900 action figure!

+ 10. Priceless.

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#1537 5 years ago
 
JER

Jjsmooth

Pincinnati

9y 104K 3,586 14 8

Quoted from o-din:

No doubt!
You've got a bunch of people that think Back to the Future and Goonies are still a thing.

Haha.. and Munsters.
Holy crap.

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#1538 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from Jjsmooth:

Haha.. and Munsters.
Holy crap.

Next up- Leave it to Beaver or Father Knows Best pinball game.

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#1539 5 years ago
 
TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,522 31

Quoted from o-din:

Next up- Leave it to Beaver or Father Knows Best pinball game.

Donna Reed is a stone cold FOX !

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#1540 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from solarvalue:

https://thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-tour/

From the article:
"I asked Robert how many Zidware customers had reached out to deeproot to file claims. He shared there weren’t as many as he would’ve liked, but he hoped more would be filing claims this month. (Note: The deadline to file claims is at the end of October – visit https://zidware.deeproottech.com to file a claim.)"

Spread the word. No Zidware customer should be left out.

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#1541 5 years ago
 
JER

Jjsmooth

Pincinnati

9y 104K 3,586 14 8

Quoted from o-din:

Next up- Leave it to Beaver or Father Knows Best pinball game.

I hear that the rights to the Beaver are harder to come by.

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#1542 5 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,259 4 6

Quoted from Jjsmooth:

I hear that the rights to the Beaver are harder to come by.

Exactly. And you don’t want to mess with the Beaver without a license agreement. Not in this day and age.

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#1543 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

I think a Heckle and Jeckle would just kick ass.

ED408E81-9764-402F-AF1F-BC37201B0182 (resized).jpegED408E81-9764-402F-AF1F-BC37201B0182 (resized).jpeg

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#1544 5 years ago
 
RPA

RA77

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 105K 2,307 13

so many cool 80's movies that could be amazing pinball machines

any one of these would be awesome !

bl r (resized).jpegbl r (resized).jpegbtilc (resized).jpgbtilc (resized).jpgesc (resized).jpgesc (resized).jpgmm2 (resized).jpgmm2 (resized).jpg
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#1545 5 years ago
 
JDM

jsyjay

Pinside member

JE Unknown City

10y 73,900 327 3 29

John Carpenters greatest hits

0014133103_10 (resized).jpg0014133103_10 (resized).jpg
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#1546 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,616 6 21 1

Since we are getting silly...

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
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#1547 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,106 2

I love Blade Runner but how the hell can you do a pinball (Action) out of this?!

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#1548 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I love Blade Runner but how the hell can you do a pinball (Action) out of this?!

Why not?

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#1549 5 years ago
 
GWL

gliebig

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 119K 5,424

It's obviously..............

Golden_child_movie (resized).jpgGolden_child_movie (resized).jpg
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#1550 5 years ago
 
TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,522 31

No love for Buckaroo Banzai?

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