160 games is pathetic for how much they spent. It is a no win moving forward with these lethargic numbers.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Quoted from hank527:160 games is pathetic for how much they spent. It is a no win moving forward with these lethargic numbers.
You aren't considering the pre-orders they may have for Food Truck.
Quoted from hank527:160 games is pathetic for how much they spent. It is a no win moving forward with these lethargic numbers.
It is really easy to armchair quarterback this stuff, but decision after decision after decision is just baffling. They arent required to explain it to me or anyone else for that matter but it just leaves you searching for answers. For a new manufacturer why would you not 1) put RAZA in locations in several places that are still open and let people learn how good it is. Led Zepplin I think has benefited from multiple streaming events from its initial reception. 2) run game ordering for a year, I mean what the hell do you have to lose other than recouping some of your initial investment. What company says you have 30 days to order our machine from and unproven manufacturer or it disappears and you can pay another $5K more. 3) pull in the key opinion leaders and either pay them or at least offer them to do reviews on it.
So why wouldn’t you do any of this ? The only reason I can come up with is either a) you are trying to become the next Supreme or b) you know you have a dog, DOA on your hands and you want to bury it as soon as possible. If that’s true you should have moved one of your other games to the front of the line and led with that first. Even with 130 games out there if it’s a dog you are gonna have a hard time living that down. And if it’s not a dog, boy you left lots of money on the table.
Silver Springs, NV
Quoted from pookycade:It is really easy to armchair quarterback this stuff, but decision after decision after decision is just baffling. They arent required to explain it to me or anyone else for that matter but it just leaves you searching for answers. For a new manufacturer why would you not 1) put RAZA in locations in several places that are still open and let people learn how good it is. Led Zepplin I think has benefited from multiple streaming events from its initial reception. 2) run game ordering for a year, I mean what the hell do you have to lose other than recouping some of your initial investment. What company says you have 30 days to order our machine from and unproven manufacturer or it disappears and you can pay another $5K more. 3) pull in the key opinion leaders and either pay them or at least offer them to do reviews on it.
So why wouldn’t you do any of this ? The only reason I can come up with is either a) you are trying to become the next Supreme or b) you know you have a dog, DOA on your hands and you want to bury it as soon as possible. If that’s true you should have moved one of your other games to the front of the line and led with that first. Even with 130 games out there if it’s a dog you are gonna have a hard time living that down. And if it’s not a dog, boy you left lots of money on the table.
I want one but this is pretty hard to argue with .
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:How many of the orders were full of partial freebies for zidware customers?
Great question as this makes it a bit worse.
Quoted from pookycade:It is really easy to armchair quarterback this stuff
Really! I know some here just love to see themselves talk and try to show their butt buddies here how smart they supposedly are but its time to put your keyboard aside for at least 24 hours, get a job and see what happens instead of rambling on about something you really know very little about.
No money on the line here, just an observation. I played the RAZA prototype at the Houston Arcade Expo in Nov 2019. It was a pinball machine with an an interesting Sci-Fi theme. They didn’t re-invent the wheel. It played like a prototype. I don’t understand the hype. I’m a big fan of show me over tell me. When they show me a game I can purchase, I’ll take a look.
Quoted from pookycade:What company says you have 30 days to order our machine from and unproven manufacturer or it disappears and you can pay another $5K more.
It seemed to me a transparent attempt to use FOMO to drive sales. I think to that end, it did add to some sales, but now it's capped at that small number.
Quoted from teekee:Really! I know some here just love to see themselves talk and try to show their butt buddies here how smart they supposedly are but its time to put your keyboard aside for at least 24 hours, get a job and see what happens instead of rambling on about something you really know very little about.
Nice!
It actually takes a lot of restraint to not just open a can of whoop ass on this company every time they do something that anybody with a dollop of sense seems crazy. I could itemize every crazy or bad decision they have made, but spoilers, I would just be regurgitating this entire thread.
Most of us legitimately hope they deliver something cool, and somehow don't wipe themselves out before at the very least delivering games that they have received money for. But after watching them set a rake on the ground, then obliviously walk into it and be surprised that it smacks them in the face what feels like a dozen times now, it seems really far fetched they somehow have it figured out now.
I mean wait until they realize that screwing a game together "is hard", and even harder is when you make each game a one off custom jobbie. WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS GOING TO BE HARD!
And there will be the common sense face palmer's here, and others who will say "shut up, you don't know how hard this all is". We didn't say it was going to be easy peasy. This company did.
Quote from the Deeproot email
Quoted from Jarson:ADDITIONAL STREAMS
We have received lots of requests for additional video coverage or streaming. We finally got all the cameras for our internal rig. But (and being completely honest) I have requested that they be delayed for now. Our creative team is working hard on other projects and deadlines. I feel that since orders are over, adding additional content in the short term is moot.
They still have to sell the 30 plus "round up" games so sale orders are not really over. And with the new top tier pricing they need to show something. More importantly, they need to reassure invested customers by showing something. If you read between the lines of the other RAZA thread, they are putting on a brave face but demoralized and I don't blame them. Between this thread and another blown deadline they must be feeling beaten up.
And forget the inhouse video or streaming. Why not turn a game over to a reputable and established third party to live stream it for a couple of hours. Multimorphic sent their new Heist game to Buffalo Pinball for example.
I bet it's summer before anything trickles out the door.
Guessing Robert didn't know that the lockdown bar is the most niche part on a machine? There's only a few stamps for it in existence.
I can see why most vendors would run away from the PinBar. It's stamped metal but then you have a window in it which has to line up to a fixed size LCD. So what do you do? Mill out the window after you stamp it? Sounds like a huge pain in the butt to only make (hahaha haha) 160 units.
That's why the prototype the Deep Six saw had the sharp corners. Most likely it was steel, laser cut as a flat pack box and then bent into shape with a brake. They'd then weld the corners and grind the shit out of it the make it somewhat smooth.
But to get the nice curve we like requires metal to be stretched with a stamp. This is probably costing him a small fortune.
Oh and obligatory JPOP rant: John is still butt hurt that they used Gomez's concept for Pinball 2k instead of his. John's concept was... Wait for it... Status LCD and graphics near the shooter lane. Hm.....
Quoted from Mr68:If you read between the lines of the other RAZA thread, they are putting on a brave face but demoralized
Lol. Don't think anyone feels that way but this topic Is all about assuming thus far.
Quoted from benheck:Sounds like a huge pain in the butt to only make (hahaha haha) 160 units.
That’s what I find confusing. The PinBar™ should be on all their games. So they should be finding someone that can schedule regular deliveries
The production line has to be continuously feed once started.
seems pretty much every other new companies had long delays due to just the last few parts needed, and these guys are still 30% missing?
How could they possible have thought 4 weeks ago that game would be coming off the line? Really makes you question if they have people there who have any clue about manufacturing pinball machines.
Was Homepin ever able to get a metal lockdown bar made? That should have been a huge red flag to DR about getting pinbar made. Your main feature and you have no vendor to make it, but you announce a date you are shipping games? Maybe pinbar 2.0 will be space age plastic!
How may times can one guy and one company just step in it?
Although pinball is a somewhat obscure industry, this would make for a great business school case study -- of what not to do!
Some people can dream and talk big and then deliver, but those are far and few, and while Mueller wants to be one, he is clearly not.
Quoted from Mr68:Quote from the Deeproot email
They still have to sell the 30 plus "round up" games so sale orders are not really over. And with the new top tier pricing they need to show something. More importantly, they need to reassure invested customers by showing something. If you read between the lines of the other RAZA thread, they are putting on a brave face but demoralized and I don't blame them. Between this thread and another blown deadline they must be feeling beaten up.
And forget the inhouse video or streaming. Why not turn a game over to a reputable and established third party to live stream it for a couple of hours. Multimorphic sent their new Heist game to Buffalo Pinball for example.
I agree with them for not streaming. I don’t think it’ll really push those ~30 games. Them being for sale in a box will move them. Besides other people will stream it when they get theirs
I had forgotten what the game looked liked and watch Steve’s 15 min video again to refresh myself. Steve’s enthusiasm and joy does a better job selling the game than the game itself. And also, there just didn’t seem to be that much to do? Which is fine, it has a WPC era simplicity (looked like only a couple major modes and a handful of side objectives). But I think most home owners expect more depth of modern games at these prices.
Or maybe the game is very deep and they did a poor job conveying it. Shrug.
The games will sell regardless though if they’re in a box.
I kinda wonder how they’ll sprinkle in those 30 games into production. Will they be last built? They hopefully don’t go the Heighway route of letting people cut the line for cash payments.
Quoted from teekee:Really! I know some here just love to see themselves talk and try to show their butt buddies here how smart they supposedly are but its time to put your keyboard aside for at least 24 hours, get a job and see what happens instead of rambling on about something you really know very little about.
How smart I am ? Hmm, I’m admittedly an idiot when it comes to what they have done because I know nothing of their financial situation, manufacturing situation, internal evaluations. But to not question the reasoning behind any of their decisions when on the surface they seem completely illogical ? Well there’s an entire financial industry devoted to doing just that. Have a job .... check I have that. Run a business .... double check I do so for both a startup and my own arcade which is beyond transparent about its current financial status on pinside. Have an opinion ..... yeah I get to have one of those too. Is it a well informed opinion ... couldn’t tell you as there is sparse insight into that company. All I can say is from the brief glimpses we have had into this business it doesn’t add up, at all. And really it doesn’t take much to arrive at the conclusion which is why so many have expressed something similar lately.
Quoted from benheck:I bet it's summer before anything trickles out the door.
agreed.. In Mid to late March you'll hear more excuses and things not going as well as planned GUARANTEED (and as I have stated earlier some of those issues). When our company lays out a schedule, we not only include the initial tooling time we include time to make adjustments to the tool (plus testing time). I hope everyone who pre-ordered is VERY patient.
Quoted from benheck:I can see why most vendors would run away from the PinBar. It's stamped metal but then you have a window in it which has to line up to a fixed size LCD. So what do you do? Mill out the window after you stamp it? Sounds like a huge pain in the butt to only make (hahaha haha) 160 units.
Milling is probably what they'll end up doing (at least for this build because of low volume), but since it's for a screen with sharp corners they have to decide how small they want to go on the radius. Go too small, it'll take forever to mill that out. Go too big, and you'll lose screen real estate. If this was a high volume product, you could do a progressive die, but that's some serious money (and you better be right on the position, or have plenty of clearance around the display in case it's not exactly where you expect it).
Laval, QC
Quoted from TreyBo69:The production line has to be continuously feed once started.
There is 0 chance the production line runs continuously after RAZA ends, unless they start building in late summer and it takes them at least a year to get thru the 160. Then again.. how many customized games do they expect to really build every day? It COULD take a year to get thru that 160.
Quoted from clempo:They had a decent prototype for the rounded pinbar, could they use the same prototyping process to manufacture all 160 pinbars faster than finding a vendor?
I'd bet a fine Christmas dinner that second prototype PinBar was fake. Or rather, "Frankensteined" together.
You'd take an off-the-shelf lockdown bar, sandblast it, weld on an extension, mill out the hole, grind the be-Jesus out of it, sand, powedercoat and viola!
Then said company would be shocked, SHOCKED I say!... to learn something that difficult to "mock up" will scare away most vendors.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from Mbecker:There is 0 chance the production line runs continuously after RAZA ends, unless they start building in late summer and it takes them at least a year to get thru the 160. Then again.. how many customized games do they expect to really build every day? It COULD take a year to get thru that 160.
First thing is that they have to start and get it running.
As soon as you know at wich volume you can produce games, you know how far in advance you'd have to get the next game ready for the line and open preorders. (- So preemtively: Yes, they have to take preorders for their next game while Raza is still on the line. This is normal. 
)
And if you only produce 1 game a year, it's easy to keep the pace continuously. It all changes with volume.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I agree with them for not streaming. I don’t think it’ll really push those ~30 games. Them being for sale in a box will move them. Besides other people will stream it when they get theirs
Fair enough and I can agree with that. But I'm curious of how well those 30 or so extra games will sell. Don't forget these $8000 and $13,000 machines have no warranty and you must sign a blanket indemnity contract.
Quoted from toyotaboy:In Mid to late March you'll hear more excuses and things not going as well as planned GUARANTEED
my guess is late February. CNY starts next Friday and lasts through about 20 Feb, and as of this week downstream supplier order windows were dwindling.
Quoted from benheck:I bet it's summer before anything trickles out the door.
....
IF and when the trickle happens - that could be it too. If they get 10-20 games put together I would be surprised.
Quoted from Robotoes:my guess is late February. CNY starts next Friday and lasts through about 20 Feb, and as of this week downstream supplier order windows were dwindling.
We have parts about to ship next week before the 8th for a project.. Every supplier in China basically says if you haven't ALREADY made arrangements weeks ago, you can forget about even getting in queue to ship parts until the 20th... That's how busy the shipment centers are right now.
Quoted from benheck:I bet it's summer before anything trickles out the door.
Guessing Robert didn't know that the lockdown bar is the most niche part on a machine? There's only a few stamps for it in existence.
I can see why most vendors would run away from the PinBar. It's stamped metal but then you have a window in it which has to line up to a fixed size LCD. So what do you do? Mill out the window after you stamp it? Sounds like a huge pain in the butt to only make (hahaha haha) 160 units.
That's why the prototype the Deep Six saw had the sharp corners. Most likely it was steel, laser cut as a flat pack box and then bent into shape with a brake. They'd then weld the corners and grind the shit out of it the make it somewhat smooth.
But to get the nice curve we like requires metal to be stretched with a stamp. This is probably costing him a small fortune.
Oh and obligatory JPOP rant: John is still butt hurt that they used Gomez's concept for Pinball 2k instead of his. John's concept was... Wait for it... Status LCD and graphics near the shooter lane. Hm.....
Why not just use the current sharp-edged lockbar and sell some cushioned PinBar PinPads to stick on the edges? Bam, one more innovation!
Quoted from westofrome:Why not just use the current sharp-edged lockbar and sell some cushioned PinBar PinPads to stick on the edges? Bam, one more innovation!
Add another $1k and pad the entire inside of the PinPod with PinPads.
Keep the sharp edges and sell PinGloves™ in a variety of sizes and colorways. Perfect upsale for this pandemic environment
Quoted from TreyBo69:Keep the sharp edges and sell PinGloves™ in a variety of sizes and colorways. Perfect upsale for this pandemic environment
lolz. I would add PinMask™, not just for Covid but you protect yourself from the rays of fun streaming at you.
Quoted from happyclan:lolz. I would add PinMask™, not just for Covid but you protect yourself from the rays of fun streaming at you.
PinShades™ because their future is so bright.
Vantaa
Quoted from ViperVS:We already have cupholders.
Well I guess if you wanna pee in your drink that's your choice 
Quoted from ZNET:If the Pinbar remains troublesome, expect the aftermarket mod: pinBRA.
Kind of makes sense. The torpedo buxom look was popular in the fifties and RAZA is, after all, a retro-themed game.
Introducing PinBRA, the comfortable solution to bloody palms: in 3 cup sizes and 30 exciting styles. This week's special for Fire & Brimstone: 10% off crucifixion cups.
Four months later and we're still ruminating about pinBRA, pinGLOVES and sundry other imagined aftermarket products. If nothing else, this thread always defaults to entertainment which, I suppose, adds to the RAZA folklore.
I was Zidware's RAZA #4 preorder customer. I was lucky to secure reimbursement for my spot just before Pintasia's rescue effort. Consequently, I don't have the stomach to reinvest in this title.
Nevertheless, I'm glad to see that the game is likely to materialize, albeit far beyond projected timelines, and pinBRAless.
PinSanitizer(tm) add-on gently sprays the flipper buttons with a disinfectant mist (which is, of course, purple colored) after each game.
To reload the PinSanitizer(tm) simply swap out the PinPerfumeCartridge(tm) which contains an RFID locked pump mechanism, enough fluid for 25 sanitations and is, of course, molded in purple plastic.
You can order new PinPerfumeCartridges(tm) from deeproot. Each cartridge costs $500, $250 of which is the core charge to return your empty unit because we care about the environment! Or, for an even better savings, customers subscribed to PinCare(tm) will receive a 10% discount(tm) on each PinPerfumeCartridge(tm) and deeproot will waive the core charge.
Quoted from benheck:PinSanitizer(tm) add-on gently sprays the flipper buttons with a disinfectant mist (which is, of course, purple colored) after each game.
To reload the PinSanitizer(tm) simply swap out the PinPerfumeCartridge(tm) which contains an RFID locked pump mechanism, enough fluid for 25 sanitations and is, of course, molded in purple plastic.
You can order new PinPerfumeCartridges(tm) from deeproot. Each cartridge costs $500, $250 of which is the core charge to return your empty unit because we care about the environment! Or, for an even better savings, customers subscribed to PinCare(tm) will receive a 10% discount(tm) on each PinPerfumeCartridge(tm) and deeproot will waive the core charge.
There is too much truth here...
Quoted from benheck:I bet it's summer before anything trickles out the door.
Guessing Robert didn't know that the lockdown bar is the most niche part on a machine? There's only a few stamps for it in existence.
I can see why most vendors would run away from the PinBar. It's stamped metal but then you have a window in it which has to line up to a fixed size LCD. So what do you do? Mill out the window after you stamp it? Sounds like a huge pain in the butt to only make (hahaha haha) 160 units.
That's why the prototype the Deep Six saw had the sharp corners. Most likely it was steel, laser cut as a flat pack box and then bent into shape with a brake. They'd then weld the corners and grind the shit out of it the make it somewhat smooth.
But to get the nice curve we like requires metal to be stretched with a stamp. This is probably costing him a small fortune.
Oh and obligatory JPOP rant: John is still butt hurt that they used Gomez's concept for Pinball 2k instead of his. John's concept was... Wait for it... Status LCD and graphics near the shooter lane. Hm.....
Please.. when will you get over John? Feels like you live for crying about all the wrongs he did.
But seriously, move on
Saw you as a guy with cool inventional ideas but nowadays it's only whineing
Quoted from ZNET:Four months later and we're still ruminating about pinBRA, .
pinSIERRE!!
London
Remember all the talk about DLC and a subscription model? That makes no sense when there are only 160 machines.
I really want DR to succeed because another manufacturer would bring more variety and different ideas to pinball. But I am seriously bummed out by how they launched RAZA.
Why force people to order sight unseen? That is such an odd choice for an unproven company. It's clear now that only a small number of potential customers were willing to gamble on this. The low number of orders will limit DR's interest in creating additional content for RAZA. Let's hope RAZA doesn't turn into a brick if they go belly up and their cloud service stops working...
Quoted from WODKA:Please.. when will you get over John? Feels like you live for crying about all the wrongs he did.
But seriously, move on
Saw you as a guy with cool inventional ideas but nowadays it's only whineing
It's because the answer to every baffling deeproot decision is "Jpop". It's Zidware 2.0, dialed up to 11
Quoted from waveman:Remember all the talk about DLC and a subscription model? That makes no sense when there are only 160 machines.
It's ALMOST like they don't know what they are doing.
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