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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#15601 3 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Haymaker:

Wow....so basically everything we said were red flags turned out to be true? More unrealistic promises that were pointed out to be unrealistic and we were right again. I'm so shocked .
Look, I hope everyone gets their games, and I think they will, just get ready for tons more delays.

That sums it up nicely.

I’d guess the people who actually ordered knew this would happen and can wait through a couple more delays. - The rest will troll on!

130 pcs. is actually quite a low number, didn‘t expect that.

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#15602 3 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,929 3 14

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

130 pcs. is actually quite a low number, didn‘t expect that.

Which is 30 less than AMH, which I'm guessing had a budget 1/100th of deeproot and sold 30 more..

I guarantee Robert isn't building 160 just in case 30 stragglers come by who are willing to pay $2k higher than initally offering, he doesn't want to be outdone by AMH. Only way he could have been more obvious is if he said he was building 151.

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#15603 3 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Which is 30 less than AMH, which I'm guessing had a budget 1/100th of deeproot and sold 30 more..
I guarantee Robert isn't building 160 just in case 30 stragglers come by who are willing to pay $2k higher than initally offering, he doesn't want to be outdone by AMH. Only way he could have been more obvious is if he said he was building 151.

Even if that would be true, wich I’d say is a pretty far fetched assumption: We‘ll never know and it doesn‘t matter.

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#15604 3 years ago
 
ARS

Robotoes

Pinside member

US Rutland, VT

9y 48,650 1,250

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

We‘ll never know and it doesn‘t matter.

For once in this thread, I think you're right!

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#15605 3 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Robotoes:

For once in this thread, I think you're right!

I‘m a smart-arse allright!

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#15606 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

He's including the Goodwill Agreements in the total so new sales are even worse than they appear.

God speed to anyone who put new money into this.

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#15607 3 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,698 1

Quoted from benheck:

He's including the Goodwill Agreements in the total so new sales are even worse than they appear.
God speed to anyone who put new money into this.

And also, ~60 + ~70 does not necessarily = 130. With numbers this low, why not just state how many were ordered?

I wonder how many were ordered

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#15608 3 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

How many goodwill games were there? 15 to 30? more?

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#15609 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Maybe John can get a job at Goodwill.

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#15610 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from benheck:

Maybe John can get a job at Goodwill.

He’s pretty good at selling old ideas as new ones

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#15611 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,218

Well glad to see RM sharing what appear to be honest details of their progress.

But the repeated misses show the naivety in their earlier estimates. Things like end of year slowdowns... or trouble sourcing vendors.. or trouble sourcing everything are not new concepts. It shows they repeatedly lack a good handle on their actual constraints and work items ahead of them. The same kind of failures over and over. You really shouldn't accept any of their forward looking statements at face value -- because they clearly lack the experience and visibility to provide accurate estimates.

For an example.. just look at EVERY new company's estimates of their production throughput... and everyone misses it by a mile and it takes a long time to tighten that up. Nevermind estimates on actual parts quality, not expecting things like vendor mistakes/bails/delays/etc. That 70% number is pretty damn scarey.

Their next estimates are likely to get blown up by their next step of 'discoveries' that they stumble upon as they go.

The good news is.. as long as they stick with it... they should grow out of this as they get real projects behind them. The bad news is... don't bet on any targets they share. They sure sound like hopeful guesses still... without contingencies to ensure they get there.

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#15612 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,877 28 49

Great update Robert! Thanks for being transparent. That's just for you Kaneda. Lol

I do appreciate all of the concern and teeth gnashing from all of the looky lou's. It's heartening.

As one of the 130 Raza buyers, with the Goodwill money and extra discount, i'm perfectly happy and fine with however long it takes to receive mine. April? May? June? Just doesn't matter.

One would think that in order to get on to game #2 they have to actually get a line going and push game #1 out the door?

One way or the other it's not gonna drag out forever. It either gets done in a reasonable time frame, soon, or they will need to pass the ball so to speak.

In the meantime, I'll be receiving my GNRCE in a few days so take your time guys! Get it right and stay "transparent".

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#15613 3 years ago
 
DJB

delt31

Pinside+ Frequent

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 159K 12,568 12 7 3

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Just adding this in from the pre-order club thread.
===============================
Dear RAZA Customer:
First, thank you for your business and decision to buy in to an amazing machine we spent years designing to bring out the best of Popadiuk’s original theme and layout. As I am writing this email, I am aware of the weight of accountability in fulfilling orders of quality machines as soon as possible. I am providing the below update as a matter of goodwill and transparency, knowing that it will be unfortunately posted online or misreported by podcasts (plural), twisted in ways where truth, civility, and rationality go to die.
ORDERS
We received orders (paid or goodwill) for ~70 Arcade Editions of RAZA, and ~60 Xtra Editions of RAZA. We will round up to 160 total RAZA Games with most of the remaining games available for sale at $8,000USD starting price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000USD flat fee for the Xtra Edition. More details on timing of that later. After all RAZA games have sold we will publish (for historical purposes - IPDB), the exact game counts.
UL/CE
We were not able to get our machines scheduled into the labs for UL testing or International/CE testing until two weeks ago. So far I understand that most tests have been passed. I understand it can take up to 5 weeks to complete testing and receiving reports and certification. We will not be able to release/ship any games until those are complete.
PARTS
With most vendors going dark for the last two weeks of December and first week of January, we have orders in for about 70% of the BOM. There are three main hiccups:
• Long lead times in general and vendors promising one thing before they get their money, than quickly changing their tune after getting their money is the most prevalent reason for the delayed orders and parts. There have been some great vendors who are exceeding expectations; and we sincerely appreciate their efforts.
• The lockbar we designed as more ergonomically usable is complex with two stamps and several welded reinforcements. The complexity of the design has caused a large number of vendors to pass on it with the cost and time frame we needed it. We finally have two vendors that are willing to do small runs. The problem is getting them into their already full production schedule to arrive asap.
• The lighted side panel prototypes we had for our 2 Xtra editions had some wear/tear and technical issues with frayed wires and sizing. It has taken the last 60+ days working with several vendors to redesign them to be more durable and allow spacing for leg protectors or cup holders, etc.
PRODUCTION
We have the first lines ready to go and will proceed in prepping what we can while waiting on parts and certification. Since there are tiered production stations the ones that can produce deliverables will start in the next few weeks. I made the decision not to show production lines or illusory and deceptive pictures of parts or lines or cabinets for many obvious reasons. The only thing that matters is you getting your brand new RAZA on your doorstep in working condition as soon as possible. That is a picture that will actually mean something. We fully look forward to seeing your delivery pics and unboxing videos posted or tagged to one or more of our social media pages.
ADDITIONAL STREAMS
We have received lots of requests for additional video coverage or streaming. We finally got all the cameras for our internal rig. But (and being completely honest) I have requested that they be delayed for now. Our creative team is working hard on other projects and deadlines. I feel that since orders are over, adding additional content in the short term is moot.
EXPECTATIONS
Disappointing news may still have a bright side. We expect to receive parts through the first week of March at this point with the first RAZAs leaving mid-March. The certifications for UL/CE should also be done around the time. While that may sound disappointing to wait another couple of weeks for games, there is a bright side. Since the run of RAZA machines is limited, we should be done much quicker than our anticipated and originally announced time of 3.5-4 months.
We have had some of you contact us about jumping the line. It doesn’t make any sense at this point. You and other customers will be playing RAZA sooner than you think.
NEXT COMMUNICATION
I plan to update customers again by the end of February. Thank you again for your trust and business. Thank you for your patience. We look forward to exceeding expectations and we are grateful for you allowing us a chance to do so. If you have any questions, please contact us at [email protected] or by visiting the website. Best! -Robert J. Mueller

Omg what a mess. If you read this and conclude anything positive, your brain broke. I can't believe people can still believe in this company after countless failures.

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#15614 3 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,562 2

Quoted from Mbecker:

You sound like a half glass full kind of person. I'd say that's pretty damn optimistic myself. So between us maybe they land at 200ish.

They won't abandon it just cause of low #'s -- they have all the goodwill orders to fulfill, and it's already essentially a massive massive loss right now as it stands given the development time and $$.. why stop now over another $500k or $1mil loss? You'd be writing the company off.

Make and sell are 2 different things. I could see them making 500 of them, but not sure on selling. Maybe that is the sweet spot to try to get too, then move on to the real blockbuster pin, FoodTruck(tm) Burritos ordered directly from the Pinbar(tm) via grubhub!

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#15615 3 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,562 2

Quoted from toyotaboy:

So let's say they build 500, and let's assume they average a profit $2k each (I doubt it's that high by the time you pay labor but let's be nice). So that's a million dollars.
"Good news investors, I got 1/30th of your investment back after 4 years (because pinball is easy).. I swear the next pinball is gonna make up for the other 29 million.. except I'm gonna need like another 2 million to develop the next title."

I generally agree with pretty much everything you say on the board, but I disagree here. RM is convinced that a loss leader (spin) on RAZA is ok and establishes a semi rare pin for dr, if it ever comes out that is. Its the underlying framework that dr is betting on. I mean, it would be insane to think they shot that entire $750,000 a month, for how 5 years on RAZA. Or is it?
Time will tell and I certainly hope they are successful.

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#15616 3 years ago
 
VPR

ViperVS

Pinside member

FI Vantaa

6y 49,050 185 29

”Vendors promising one thing before they get their money, than quickly changing their tune after getting their money is the most prevalent reason for the delayed orders and parts.
-Robert J. Mueller”

Those damn vendors. Luckily pinball companies never do this with their products....oh wait....

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#15617 3 years ago
 
CHK

thechakapakuni

Inactive member

4y 61,300 2,093 30

Quoted from delt31:

Omg what a mess. If you read this and conclude anything positive, your brain broke. I can't believe people can still believe in this company after countless failures.

18C449CB-E495-4254-BC14-6C9EF426B2FE.gif18C449CB-E495-4254-BC14-6C9EF426B2FE.gif
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#15618 3 years ago
 
DCH

dc2010

Inactive member

US Natalia, TX

12y 62,600 954 35

Still haven't heard from DR ....and they just posted production openings again...

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#15619 3 years ago
 
WJT

TaTa

Pinside member

US Philadelphia, PA

10y 77,800 1,721 9 33

Quoted from delt31:

Omg what a mess. If you read this and conclude anything positive, your brain broke. I can't believe people can still believe in this company after countless failures.

I guess I'm brain dead then

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#15620 3 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from flynnibus:

Well glad to see RM sharing what appear to be honest details of their progress.

I will give credit for that. What is typical at this stage of the process is "radio silence".

As much as many of us in this thread predicted the delays, Robert did the only right thing to do here which is be transparent about it.

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#15621 3 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,538

Quoted from TreyBo69:

PARTS
With most vendors going dark for the last two weeks of December and first week of January, we have orders in for about 70% of the BOM.

For me this is the huge one. "Orders in" doesn't mean the parts are on hand. What about the other 30% of the BOM required to make these machines? What is the lead time for those parts? Sounds like he might not really know.

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#15622 3 years ago
 
VPR

ViperVS

Pinside member

FI Vantaa

6y 49,050 185 29

"I made the decision not to show production lines or illusory and deceptive pictures of parts or lines or cabinets for many obvious reasons."

Obvious reasons being that you didn't have parts or production lines.

How on earth does company make promises about shipping schedules before they even have:
- UL/CE testing approved
- Working production line, including workers
- Required parts on the table

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#15623 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,426

Quoted from dc2010:

Still haven't heard from DR ....and they just posted production openings again...

Just a guess, maybe because they don’t have much for you to do yet? They’re still waiting on a lot of parts to come in.

Hope you hear back when they’re ready to go.

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#15624 3 years ago
 
BAD

BC_Gambit

PinMod Industries

Unknown

11y 70,550 3,532

Quoted from ViperVS:

How on earth does company make promises about shipping schedules before they even have:
- UL/CE testing approved
- Working production line, including workers
- Required parts on the table

Answer: Derproot.

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#15625 3 years ago
 
NAC

happyclan

Pinside member

3y 56,550 256

My FOMO is for RAZA is starting to abate. It's a shame because I really like the art packages on RAZA.

Is there hope that CGC's 4th pin will be RAZAr?

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#15626 3 years ago
 
ARG

spinal

Pinside member

7y 69,150 1,537

Quoted from TreyBo69:

the first RAZAs leaving mid-March

RAZA’s will begin leaving the factory as soon as March 15th people!!!!! RM said 6 weeks from now - so excited!

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#15627 3 years ago
 
???

westofrome

Pinside member

US Alexandria, VA

11y 77,300 2,158 2

If Deeproot was a stock, a bunch of hedge funds would be shorting it hard, and a bunch of redditors would be squeezing it.

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#15628 3 years ago
 
AJP

parsonsaj

Pinside+ Frequent

6y 75,550 949

Quoted from spinal:

RAZA’s will begin leaving the factory as soon as March 15th people!!!!! RM said 6 weeks from now - so excited!

I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade... but in all honesty the next time that RM says anything accurate regarding a timeline or date will be the first time it has ever been that way!

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#15629 3 years ago
 
???

westofrome

Pinside member

US Alexandria, VA

11y 77,300 2,158 2

If anyone gets this game before 2022 it will be a miracle.

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#15630 3 years ago
 
???

littlecammi

Pinside member

US Carol Stream, IL

11y 82,650 4,532 19

I'll be honest. I now wish I had ordered one during the limited order period (and risked losing the required 10% deposit). I do think they will eventually build and ship RAZA (and then move on to another title). And at 130-ish sold (including the Zidware goodwill games) rounded up to 160 total production, this game is going to be rare and should hold its value well. But I'm not going to purchase one at 8K plus options, though even that price may be far less than what used RAZAs sell for in just a few years.

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#15631 3 years ago
 
PBD

Dr-pin

Pinside member

SE Trollhättan

5y 50,800 1,651 7

Quoted from westofrome:

If anyone gets this game before 2022 it will be a miracle.

Nothing on this sale makes sense.
I dont think games will be made.
If they really wanted to make raza and make money making raza, you start building and start selling. If its good, you'll sell more and more, whilst producing the game.

Either they are never going to make it, or realised it's a crap game and wants to move on.

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#15632 3 years ago
 
AE

aeneas

Flippers.be

11y 76,050 1,522

Worst case it takes like 3 years to finish and by then new pinball prices will have increased so much that 8k is the normal price for a stern pro, and a nib raza will be a good deal.

Or look it from this side - for 6k you gamble if it's going to be made, for 8k you'll buy a finished machine. Is not having to worry worth 2k ?

Anyway I'm happy for the honest update by Robert, quite a change of tone. Guess he's become more realistic at last..

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#15633 3 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

Quoted from littlecammi:

this game is going to be rare and hold its value well.

People keep saying this.. but only 1/2 this statement is for certain. It will not hold value if it’s no fun to play or is full of bugs that never get fixed, etc. it’s not a bad gamble, but simply stating it will hold its value because of rarity doesn’t make it true

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#15634 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Quoted from happyclan:

Is there hope that CGC's 4th pin will be RAZAr?

No.

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#15635 3 years ago
 
BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,615 104

Quoted from Mbecker:

People keep saying this.. but only 1/2 this statement is for certain. It will not hold value if it’s no fun to play or is full of bugs that never get fixed, etc. it’s not a bad gamble, but simply stating it will hold its value because of rarity doesn’t make it true

Explain why Magic Girl keeps reselling well above 15k.

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#15636 3 years ago
 
ROB

transprtr4u

Pinside+ Frequent

CA Edmonton, AB

10y 130K 8,398 3 1

Quoted from happyclan:

Is there hope that CGC's 4th pin will be RAZAr?

Is there hope that game #4 will ever be released ?
Communication from CGC is about the same as DR

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#15637 3 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,568 11

It's time for Robin to come in and stop buys on DR products. For your own safety.

/s

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#15638 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Explain why Magic Girl keeps reselling well above 15k.

Explain why Cosmic Carnival doesn’t.

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#15639 3 years ago
 
BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,615 104

Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

Explain why Cosmic Carnival doesn’t.

Because it is such an awesome game.

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#15640 3 years ago
 
MTE

SLCpunk2113

Pinside member

7y 81,400 1,325 54

Quoted from transprtr4u:

Is there hope that game #4 will ever be released ?
Communication from CGC is about the same as DR

CGC is certainly taking their sweet ass time but they are also a huge game manufacturer that pinball isn’t their only focus. There is no danger of if but when and what.

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#15641 3 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Zablon:

It's time for Robin to come in and stop buys on DR products. For your own safety.
/s

I'm into Gamestop anyway!

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#15642 3 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,568 11

Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

CGC is certainly taking their sweet ass time but they are also a huge game manufacturer that pinball isn’t their only focus. There is no danger of if but when and what.

And they've proven themselves multiple times.

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#15643 3 years ago
 
RKS

Calfdemon

Pinside+ Frequent

US Santa Clarita, CA

7y 84,900 1,293 5

Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

CGC is certainly taking their sweet ass time but they are also a huge game manufacturer that pinball isn’t their only focus. There is no danger of if but when and what.

This, and aren't they manufacturing Ben's new game in collaboration with Spooky? So their line will be used for that run for a while anyway. (Do they have more than one line?)

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#15644 3 years ago
 
CHK

thechakapakuni

Inactive member

4y 61,300 2,093 30

OP
Quoted from pin2d:

For those unfamiliar with deeproot Pinball, here is a timeline for the company:
Early 2015
deeproot Tech starts its pinball division – deeproot Pinball. They contact several pinball designers and manufacturers.
Summer 2015
The deeproot team decides to shelve the pinball project until a later date.
October 2016
deeproot begins implementing their internal plan of action to start down the road to become a pinball manufacturer.
Late 2016 – 2017
deeproot begins reaching out to several pinball designers. After spending significant time weighing pros and cons, deeproot decides that pinball designer John Popadiuk (“JPop”) is the best option available. They decided this knowing there would be backlash from some in the pinball community, and knowing they would need to address John’s past mistakes with Zidware.
June 2017
deeproot begins to move forward with their plan to deal with JPop’s past and provide help to Zidware customers.
Early September 2017
Plaintiffs of the lawsuit and deeproot agree to terms on a settlement. This settlement with the Plaintiffs will be essentially the same for all other former customers of Zidware. (Details of the settlement will be revealed soon.)
September 14th, 2017
It is discovered on deeproot’s website that John Popadiuk is part of their team with the title Lead Game Development. Confidential terms of the settlement are leaked to podcasters and others in the pinball community. A thread is started on Pinside.com to inform many in the pinball community that JPop has resurfaced and is working with deeproot Pinball. Notably, Jeremy Packer (aka Zombie Yeti) makes a post which includes: “I have been asked to sign over all copyrights free and clear as if I was fully compensated. I simply refuse.” Podcasters, most notably Chris Kooluris of Kaneda’s Pinball Podcast, released podcasts with harsh criticism of deeproot. All of this, of course, caused severe negative reaction to deeproot since John Popadiuk still owed many Zidware customers refunds or machines.
September 18th, 2017
This Week in Pinball speaks to Robert Mueller, the man behind deeproot Tech, and posts “A Conversation with Deeproot“. Robert shares:
- deeproot plans to make Zidware customers whole
- Robert: “Jpop is someone that needs to be managed”
- deeproot does not plan to take any pre-order money or deposits for their machines
- deeproot may change the title or tweak the layout of John’s already designed games
- Robert believes he can build machines in a different and better way than other manufacturers are doing currently
- deeproot hopes to make a public announcement in the coming weeks, then go dark for a long time until everything is ready
October 13th, 2017
deeproot retracts its settlement offer to the Plaintiffs for reasons that will be disclosed at a later date.
October 21st, 2017
Robert Mueller and Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) speak for the first time. Jeremy verbally agrees to sign over the rights to the games in exchange for undisclosed consideration.

And 7 years laters maybe we’ll see a pin?

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#15645 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,837

Quoted from littlecammi:

I'll be honest. I now wish I had ordered one during the limited order period (and risked losing the required 10% deposit). I do think they will eventually build and ship RAZA (and then move on to another title). And at 130-ish sold (including the Zidware goodwill games) rounded up to 160 total production, this game is going to be rare and should hold its value well. But I'm not going to purchase one at 8K plus options, though even that price may be far less than what used RAZAs sell for in just a few years.

The price of that used pin will depend on whether parts are available to keep it running if DR ceases to be an active company.

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#15646 3 years ago
 
PAY

pookycade

Pinside member

11y 95,300 1,837

Quoted from thechakapakuni:

And 7 years laters maybe we’ll see a pin?

What I just don’t get here was how any of this was worth it in the end. They sold 130 pins, just over $750K of potential revenue. How much did they have to spend to get that revenue. Loss leader seems to be one way to sell it, but isn’t the point in loss leader that you have high volume even if you don’t make much money ? I just keep scratching my head. None of this makes any sense at all.

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#15647 3 years ago
 
???

trueno92

Pinside member

CA Toronto, ON

7y 52,800 1,631 3

This and pinballsp.com dmdmk66 are like..

The same.

My bet is they will try to make march as the assembly date with a few crumbs of further delays that will result in SIGNIFICANT DECONTENTING of the game.

Pinbar thing still doesnt have a supplier? And they were supposed to ship next month?

They sound like they never been in a supply chain biz in their whole career.

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#15648 3 years ago
 
WCB

wcbrandes

Pinside member

CA Vancouver, BC

11y 108K 3,594 33 13

Can I put a non refundable deposit down on the Who?

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0
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#15649 3 years ago
 
MDB

Mbecker

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

10y 104K 4,312 5 14

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Explain why Magic Girl keeps reselling well above 15k.

but you're comparing a museum art piece against a pinball machine lol All I'm saying is, it isn't a given.

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#15650 3 years ago
 
CVJ

SmallyBells

Pinside member

US Kansas City, OR

4y 22,400 84 6

Maybe consider making the pinbar out of a fine piece of wood to trim the delay time.

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