(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

3 years ago



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There are 16300 posts in this topic. You are on page 311 of 326.
12
#15501 45 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Nah, you just can't or don't want to follow it.

It’s because you’re working backwards to justify their choices now.

It’d be one thing to say they’ve pivoted multiple times, but to think they’re sticking to some master plan flies in the face of logic.

I don’t even necessarily disagree that they should ramp up slow. But that was clearly never the intention and their plans have drastically changed to meet a particular reality. (One that’s probably still distorted but at least more realistic than it was the past few years)

This is where they have stumbled into. They’ve made some good and bad choices the last few months. But what they do in general makes little sense.

#15502 45 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

No I don't think most of it's about drama - I think a lot of the posts are just plain facts, and reasonable thought toward probable outcomes - nobody likes to see people get burned. If there is drama, it's a by product of how things don't line up on multiple levels, the history involved and time that has passed.
Just doesn't look good where I'm sitting. Some have optimism. Wish them luck, but I don't think this will turn out well in the end.

Yeah - probably should say “entertainment”.

#15503 45 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It’s because you’re working backwards to justify their choices now.
It’d be one thing to say they’ve pivoted multiple times, but to think they’re sticking to some master plan flies in the face of logic.
I don’t even necessarily disagree that they should ramp up slow. But that was clearly never the intention and their plans have drastically changed to meet a particular reality. (One that’s probably still distorted but at least more realistic than it was the past few years)
This is where they have stumbled into. They’ve made some good and bad choices the last few months. But what they do in general makes little sense.

That is correct but all their bold statements don‘t matter in the end.
What they‘re „doing“ is what matters, what they‘re „telling“ will change as allways.

They‘re standing where they are standing. and if someone with sense comes into the place now or they have an epiphany, they will have to find a way to work with what they have there.

Goonies is propably not even ready yet, and preproducing machines costs money wich has pretty obviously run at least a bit dry. So while everyone knows it better what Deeproot should do, they ignore the reality of things.

So short things short:
They have to work with what‘s there, wich is only RaZa, and have to make you buy that.

#15504 45 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Goonies is propably not even ready yet, and preproducing machines costs money wich has pretty obviously run at least a bit

This is another thing. They are advertising a The Who pin on their upcoming games list and have basically said they’re doing Goonies if not explicitly said so

So did they already sign licensing deals? Are those not ticking clocks that have to be finished and built within a particular time frame? (Or they have to re-up, thus throwing away money needlessly)

Did The Who really approve a power point slide advertising an upcoming pin of themselves?

This isn’t trying to cause trouble, it’s just a thing I’ve wondered.

Robert is a lawyer. He’s not dumb about these issues. But it’s hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It’s not the same as when Jersey Jack would have a cocktail and throw out some game names at a show. It’s on their website and it’s Mueller discussing these things in interviews.

And if they do...again it’s just why are they shooting their load before they’re ready?

#15505 45 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

And if they do...again it’s just why are they shooting their load before they’re ready?

Because there was a period of time where RM got caught up in the arms race and wanted to sit at the big kid table so he kept inserting himself/dr into the licensing spats that stern was having with others. Stern was trying to bully a bit and I guess Robert wanted to be a bigshot and try to flex by securing a bunch and then boasting about it.

Why they are direct about some and coy about others can simply be due to the terms of the deals... in terms of marketing or disclosure.

I think it is common in this space for companies to basically sign one deal to secure “rights to do a future pin” that is more open ended but is more about scope... then they have a second, heavier deal when they actually commit to the project and all the finer details are hammered out.

#15506 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Because there was a period of time where RM got caught up in the arms race and wanted to sit at the big kid table so he kept inserting himself/dr into the licensing spats that stern was having with others. Stern was trying to bully a bit and I guess Robert wanted to be a bigshot and try to flex by securing a bunch and then boasting about it.
Why they are direct about some and coy about others can simply be due to the terms of the deals... in terms of marketing or disclosure.
I think it is common in this space for companies to basically sign one deal to secure “rights to do a future pin” that is more open ended but is more about scope... then they have a second, heavier deal when they actually commit to the project and all the finer details are hammered out.

Yeah that’s the only logical conclusion. They have optioned these properties. But options also expire...

#15507 45 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Yeah that’s the only logical conclusion. They have optioned these properties. But options also expire...

Maybe call RM if you are worried.

I have better things to worry about.

And I am sure their focus is RAZA and survival right now.

#15508 45 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Maybe call RM if you are worried.
I have better things to worry about.
And I am sure their focus is RAZA and survival right now.

oh I’m not worried. It’s not my problem and I don’t care for either of those themes.

I just enjoy watching from the sidelines.

#15509 45 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

So did they already sign licensing deals? Are those not ticking clocks that have to be finished and built within a particular time frame? (Or they have to re-up, thus throwing away money needlessly)

I'm no expert, but I believe there are two levels of licenses

Stage 1 - A cheaper "hold license" where you basically block anyone else from making that themed product for the next year. I think Stern starts with this while the table is being developed and they negotiate approval on artwork and what not

Stage 2 - Actual license - Everything is approved and the clock starts ticking, production begins. If it takes you longer than a year to build your orders, you have to renew the license. Typically the license price goes up because the licensor knows you've invested time and money into your product.

With that said, if you don't move over to stage 2 quickly enough and another company comes along promising a quicker launch date, the licensor may switch contracts... especially if 2nd company is more established.

#15510 45 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'm no expert, but I believe there are two levels of licenses
Stage 1 - A cheaper "hold license" where you basically block anyone else from making that themed product for the next year. I think Stern starts with this while the table is being developed and they negotiate approval on artwork and what not
Stage 2 - Actual license - Everything is approved and the clock starts ticking, production begins. If it takes you longer than a year to build your orders, you have to renew the license. Typically the license price goes up because the licensor knows you've invested time and money into your product.
With that said, if you don't move over to stage 2 quickly enough and another company comes along promising a quicker launch date, the licensor may switch contracts... especially if 2nd company is more established.

You’d think it be the former with The Goonies since they dance around it and the later with The Who since they’re advertising it.

#15511 45 days ago

Robert has explicitly talked about Goonies. In the very long Pinball News interview, as I recall

13
#15512 45 days ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Per the FAQ on the Deeproot website:
Will there be more RAZA's to buy later on?
We will never make RAZA again. However, we will round up our production lots; meaning there will be a few extra units available after the run. We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided for start up risk and delays in receiving games.

REAL price? Start up discounts? This is HELLA fishy guys...

#15513 45 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

REAL price? Start up discounts? This is HELLA fishy guys...

Ah, watcha worried about. Not like they had buyers sign away their rights or anything, or anybody involved in the company previously took in a bunch of money and then stiffed people on the goods...

#15514 45 days ago
Quoted from pookycade:

So here is what DR could have done: change the entire model for pin purchase.
Game = free
Per year ownership cost with all DLC = $1000 a year.
What that would have done is immediately flooded the market with their games. Hell I would have gotten one or more. They couldn’t push them out fast enough even if they weren’t the greatest themes.
Think about all the people out there who essentially rent their games (pay Stern $9000, sell after a year for $8200).
You lower the bar for everyone to get into owning a pin instead of limit to the those who put pin purchases over car purchases or are independently wealthy.
Advantages: 1) you have huge uptake immediately, key for new kid on block to disrupt stern 2) you put a true disruptive model out there rather than this crap of “yeah if we make another RAZA it will be $13K”. 3) you establish a revenue stream rather than a one time lump sum of cash. 4) people will give you the benefit of the doubt. 5) you can structure the company from the get go using a model that other pin companies built on traditional models can’t easily replicate.
Disadvantages: 1) you need money, lots and lots of it to pay for the years of losses 2) your pin could be turned into the equivalent of scooters thrown into a lake 3) profitability will be down the road at best and perhaps never.
Investors want to see high uptake. Profit doesn’t have to be there to begin with. 200 pins sold is not high uptake.
Who knows, this might perhaps have been the model after all with that much cash they started with. But it fell apart when they couldn’t get the job done on time. So you have a millions funded company running on a Spooky business model, delivering a conventional product 7 years late, at a very conventional price and an undifferentiated model. Just doesn’t add up unfortunately. Unless PinBar was supposed to be the savior.

I remember my first beer.

#15515 45 days ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Ah, watcha worried about. Not like they had buyers sign away their rights or anything, or anybody involved in the company previously took in a bunch of money and then stiffed people on the goods...

Yep, not like any of that happened. I’ve spoken with John P several times and he always said “I’m not an MBA”. I guess that was clue number 1.

#15516 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Those guys buying high end pins all obsess about their residual value and use it to help justify their outlay. If you make that a guaranteed depreciation... and at this scale of 1-3k... you don’t have the same price insulation anymore. Those LE buyers would freak if their games dropped 3k in 3 years.
You need your subscriptions to outlast your capital expense. These same buyers you mention aren’t likely to keep those games for 4+ years. So you’re behind... far too often.
Trying to sell your units for residual value is directly competing with your subscription sales.... if you could get them back easily.
No one will leave a 1k subscription running on a static piece of goods because its just easier than canceling.
DR had the right approach... some direct attach offer that tries to keep the captive audience. Of course the trick is always trying to have the value people will pay for for the minimum duration that doesn’t over extend you.
Your pitch would only work with mandatory minimums.. and doesn’t help that you are charging less than the normal direct purchase price.
Alas in this market there is no way to timeslice or oversell the same unit if you put the game in someone’s house.
The better approach if you really wanted to be that disruptor is to take your model and do it with operators. Pure profit sharing models with leased equipment. Basically what the slot machine market has become.
Use that to establish your footprint and show recurring revenue.

I don’t disagree with any of this analysis. Yeah I’m an operator so I’m more focused on that market than home pins. I think high level the point still stands that if they wanted to be disruptive they needed to do something different (while they still had cash). I’m sure you would agree this is a very conventional play at a very conventional price, and they have been highly capital inefficient here. Ask any of the boutique pin makers whether this strategy has turned into the high growth required when one is funded by rocket fuel venture type dollars.

#15517 45 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

Yep, not like any of that happened. I’ve spoken with John P several times and he always said “I’m not an MBA”. I guess that was clue number 1.

The more telling statement would have been “What is Quickbooks ?” which almost certainly was the case.

10
#15518 43 days ago

I have called the factory 5 times on different days and no answer :/ not sure what's going on but makes me a bit uneasy.

13
#15519 43 days ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

I have called the factory 5 times on different days and no answer :/ not sure what's going on but makes me a bit uneasy.

The receptionist is working the manufacturing line instead of the phone line.

11
#15520 43 days ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

I have called the factory 5 times on different days and no answer :/ not sure what's going on but makes me a bit uneasy.

I hate to say it but it sounds like deeproot is breaking up with you.

#15521 43 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Exactly, how else would you know what to ramp up for?
So I'll swing by sometime tomorrow and do the "counting cars in the parking lot" observation.

How many cars in the parking lot ?

#15522 43 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

How many cars in the parking lot ?

Maybe start slower by asking "how many spaces are in the parking lot"?

#15523 43 days ago
Quoted from Sly_Old_Devil:

Maybe start slower by asking "how many spaces are in the parking lot"?

It’d kinda pointless. They share an office complex with other business.

#15524 43 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It’d kinda pointless. They share an office complex with other business.

But one loading dock...

#15525 43 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It’d kinda pointless. They share an office complex with other business.

Payday loans?

#15526 43 days ago

Clearly someone needs to go over there and do a full stakeout and report back on Friday. Who’s parking, where they go work, how long, what are they ordering for lunch .. let’s get to the bottom of this!

#15527 42 days ago

I made a comment the other day about calling 5 times and nobody picking up the phone, Deep root reached out to me today and all is good in the world. Looking forward to RAZA showing up.

#15528 42 days ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

I made a comment the other day about calling 5 times and nobody picking up the phone, Deep root reached out to me today and all is good in the world. Looking forward to RAZA showing up.

I remember people saying the same thing when SkitB called them and reached out - same with Jpop and Highway etc...

#15529 42 days ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

I made a comment the other day about calling 5 times and nobody picking up the phone, Deep root reached out to me today and all is good in the world. Looking forward to RAZA showing up.

It was MLK day - maybe?

#15530 42 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I remember people saying the same thing when SkitB called them and reached out - same with Jpop and Highway etc...

So you may as well just stop calling.

#15531 42 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So you may as well just stop calling.

Problem is this has never ended well in the past.

#15532 42 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

How many cars in the parking lot ?

I'm down in Port Aransas this week. It'll have to wait until early next week before i can swing by there.

I'll take some pics and post so you guys can let your imagination run wild! Lol

Been very busy.

#15533 42 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I'm down in Port Aransas this week. It'll have to wait until early next week before i can swing by there.
I'll take some pics and post so you guys can let your imagination run wild! Lol
Been very busy.

Did you ever get your tour? Weren’t you promised one? Id understand if they won’t let you take photos.

#15534 42 days ago

Is this still a thing???

#15535 42 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Did you ever get your tour? Weren’t you promised one? Id understand if they won’t let you take photos.

No tours ATM because, Covid.

Totally understandable, and please try not to start a new conspiracy theory based on this.

#15536 42 days ago
Quoted from mrbillishere:

No tours ATM because, Covid.
Totally understandable, and please try not to start a new conspiracy theory based on this.

That’s certainly reasonable

Are you accusing me of making conspiracy theories in this thread? I don’t think I’ve said anything nearly as crazy as some others. Occasional snark mixed with perplexion and doubt, but I don’t think I’ve accused them of any wrong doing or nefarious schemes.

#15537 41 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

Problem is this has never ended well in the past.

That is correct. But people knew that before ordering last month.
And they said it‘ll take a while, so I‘d advise to wait the minimum time they communicated before panicing.

...

I could do a countdown to that!

Please start to panic in: X days

XD

31
#15538 40 days ago
workingbernie (resized).jpg
#15539 40 days ago

Bern don’t play ‘dat.

#15540 40 days ago

Where's the pic of Clinton having a nap?

#15541 39 days ago
Quoted from rwmech5:

Where's the pic of Clinton having a nap?

George-Clinton (resized).jpg
#15542 39 days ago

Bernie be like "I HATE SUPER DELEGATES!"

#15543 39 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

Bernie be like "I HATE SUPER DELEGATES!"

so true

member (resized).jpg
#15544 39 days ago
Quoted from rwmech5:

Where's the pic of Clinton having a nap?

zzzzPetrina-Ryan-Kleid-Parsing-Bill (resized).jpg
#15545 39 days ago

Wicked. Lol

#15546 38 days ago

lol...poor Bernie...he's all over the place!!

IMG-3162 (resized).jpg
#15547 37 days ago

A first for me...no Deeproot posts whilst I slept.

#15548 37 days ago
Quoted from pudealee:

A first for me...no Deeproot posts whilst I slept.

don't wake the naysayers

#15549 36 days ago

#15550 36 days ago

Nothing else to say. Just waiting for manufacturing to get started. Push the go button on the conveyor belt!

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