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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#15101 3 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,564 2

Quoted from cpr9999:

One more time - production is the hard part.
Dang if I had a $1 every time I heard this I could start my own manufacturing company!
We get it - this is the part that will make DR succeed or fail.
Do you have another angle to advance the discussion?

Yes, pre-production is also the hard part, for DR. Ala the group that went down and came away less than impressed. I suspect post production will be hard too(if it makes it that far) where will parts and support come from, when DR is dead? Lots of issues with anything production related.

Care to share some news that would refute those statements?

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#15102 3 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from Warzard:

Ok the list have changed for sure. How do you guys know those guys have been laid out? Did you ask them or do you know the current team out there?
It’s still speculation. It’s not because one known person in here have left than there was no turnover.
I’ve changed companies, and people are getting fired. We don’t know the details... only one side version can be talked in here anyway.

Are you intentionally being daft? It’s not speculation. Speak for yourself. YOU don’t know the details.

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#15103 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from PinMonk:

Wow, that's some stark comparison from Nov 2018 to Aug 2020 when you see it laid out like that (I took Dennis Nordman out because he's gone, even though they list him):
--------------------------
Nov 2018
--------------------------
MANAGEMENT TEAM
--------------------------
ROBERT MUELLER - PRINCIPAL
CRAIG RUSHFORTH - VP/LEAD ENGINEER
EXCLUSIVE GAME AND AUDIO DESIGN TEAM
--------------------------
JOHN POPADIUK - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
DENNIS NORDMAN - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
JON NORRIS - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
BARRY OURSLER - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
DAVID THIEL - PINBALL AUDIO ARTIST
ELECTRICAL TEAM
--------------------------
MATTHEW BRADSHAW - ELECTRICAL ENGINEER
JOSUE CRUZ-LAMBERT - ELECTRICAL ENGINEER
JACOB RODRIGUEZ - ELECTRICAL ENGINEER
FLOR CASTRO - ELECTRICAL TECH
MECHANICAL TEAM
--------------------------
SEAN GIBSON - SENIOR MECHANICAL ENGINEER
PATRICK FINUCANE - MECHANICAL PROJECT LEAD
JEREMY SANCHEZ - MECHANICAL ENGINEER
DANIEL VELA - MECHANICAL ENGINEER
JUAN SOTELO - MECHANICAL TECH
MANUEL LEAL - MECHANICAL TECH
STEPHEN NEGRETE - MECHANICAL TECH
CHRISTOPHER CABRERA - MECHANICAL TECH
CHARLES NEGRETE - MECHANICAL TECH
IN-HOUSE ART AND STORYBOARDING TEAM
--------------------------
BLAKE ADRIAN - VISUALIZATION ARTIST
ADAM REHMANN - CONCEPT ARTIST
QUINN JOHNSON - SCENARIST, STORYBOARDING, WRITER
STEVEN BOWDEN - RULESET DESIGNER / DEEPROOT AMBASSADOR
UTAH CREATIVE STUDIO
--------------------------
MATTHEW ARMSTRONG - ART DIRECTOR
LANCE MONTGOMERY - PINBALL AUDIO ARTIST
NATE ALLISON - TECHNICAL DIRECTOR
ALLEN STEVENSON - ANIMATOR
RYAN BIRD - ANIMATOR
DILLON THOMPSON - CHARACTER MODELLING & ANIMATION
SOFTWARE TEAM
--------------------------
TURNER LOGIC - SOFTWARE
--------------------------
Aug 2020
--------------------------
MANAGEMENT TEAM
--------------------------
ROBERT MUELLER - PRINCIPAL
CRAIG RUSHFORTH - VP/LEAD ENGINEER
EXCLUSIVE GAME AND AUDIO DESIGN TEAM
--------------------------
JOHN POPADIUK - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
JON NORRIS - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
BARRY OURSLER - EXCLUSIVE GAME DESIGNER
DAVID THIEL - PINBALL AUDIO ARTIST

Checking LinkedIn- some of those people are listed as being at DR still. But very few!!

For example - SEAN GIBSON is now VP of Operations.

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#15104 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from Roostking:

Yes, pre-production is also the hard part, for DR. Ala the group that went down and came away less than impressed. I suspect post production will be hard too(if it makes it that far) where will parts and support come from, when DR is dead? Lots of issues with anything production related.
Care to share some news that would refute those statements?

Nope.

Just want to advance the discussion beyond what we already know.

I would like DR to succeed (as more pinball is good); however I do my homework and I do not think this will end well.

Hope I am wrong for the people in.
Also, DR posted they will release sales numbers at end January- hope they were good and not overinflated.

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#15105 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from cpr9999:

Nope.
Just want to advance the discussion beyond what we already know.
I would like DR to succeed (as more pinball is good); however I do my homework and I do not think this will end well.
Hope I am wrong for the people in.
Also, DR posted they will release sales numbers at end January- hope they were good and not overinflated.

Up-voted and agree. Welcome to the dark side.

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#15106 3 years ago
 
TBM

Zablon

Pinside member

US Kellogg, IA

9y 103K 10,574 11

Quoted from Yelobird:

I'm a Vegas kind of guy. Can't bet on the Whole but if you want to lay a wager on my purchase investment feel free to shoot me a PM. I feel very confident in my purchase and Receipt of said purchase. I can speculate/assume just like anyone else. Glass half full, let me know.

LOL. Yeah, I think they will get some games out, but not sure about all of them. Crossing fingers they do as I like what I see. My main concern is they don't seem to have really changed their gameplan much from the last time. I see something like Heighway happening at some point - but what do I know.

I already have all my money tied up waiting on a R&M and an Alien (which..really could go the same way).

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#15107 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Gone or not gone (guessing gone) what did the Utah crew do exactly? The animation seen on RAZA is (for the most part) extremely basic and could be accomplished by one person using Adobe After Effects.

Did they animate for the most anticipated pin of all time FOOD TRUCK?

Also the engineering staff numbers are impressive but where did they all go? Was all prep work done for all 10 games and now they're fired? Is he running this like a video game company?

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#15108 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from Zablon:

LOL. Yeah, I think they will get some games out, but not sure about all of them. Crossing fingers they do as I like what I see. My main concern is they don't seem to have really changed their gameplan much from the last time. I see something like Heighway happening at some point - but what do I know.
I already have all my money tied up waiting on a R&M and an Alien (which..really could go the same way).

At least on Alien you get your money back if they fold for those going through Cointaker.

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#15109 3 years ago
 
CBM

spfxted

Pinside member

US Saddle River, NJ

12y 147K 24,661 4 9

....and now....a 5 minute break....

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#15110 3 years ago
 
GGI

Warzard

Pinside member

5y 47,650 308

Quoted from Scandell:

Are you intentionally being daft? It’s not speculation. Speak for yourself. YOU don’t know the details.

no. If you no longer work there for months, how do you know the details? do you still have contacts?
You have anger for sure.
I respect the fact that you worked there and you don't like them. We got that.
No I don't know the details? i respect your privacy. There are a lot of turnover in companies: maybe you were on your right, maybe not. Who cares.
It doesn't change the fact that they may produce those pins anyway.

I've heard peope working at "Apple" that is was hell... so what?

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#15111 3 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 128K 3,010 13 1

First uplifting post.

Quoted from spfxted:

....and now....a 5 minute break....
[quoted image]

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#15112 3 years ago
 
MAC

frankmac

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 154K 5,103 4

Quoted from Scandell:

Are you intentionally being daft? It’s not speculation. Speak for yourself. YOU don’t know the details.

So what are the details??

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#15113 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Why do people have to explain / apologize for not liking something?

Hell half my friends are obsessed with hating an orange buffoon they've never met, surely people can have an opinion about a company/people they actually have experience with?

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#15114 3 years ago
 
MAC

frankmac

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 154K 5,103 4

Does not hurt to ask someone for the details .

If they want to answer fine if not fine.
Not going to change my day.

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#15115 3 years ago
 
WYZ

wesman

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

5y 92,800 3,526 7 7

Quoted from benheck:

Why do people have to explain / apologize for not liking something?
Hell half my friends are obsessed with hating an orange buffoon they've never met, surely people can have an opinion about a company/people they actually have experience with?

Possibly because unvetted anger only feeds into the worst aspects of humanity, versus building into the better qualities, which need nurtured and assisted to flourish.

Humans will naturally float towards cynicism, versus optimism. The prior takes less work, and on a genuine level, easier to build with other large groups of people. This thread is an example of that.

Just as much as ignorant positivity needs checked, so does virulent negativity.

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#15116 3 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from wesman:

Possibly because unvetted anger only feeds into the worst aspects of humanity, versus building into the better qualities, which need nurtured and assisted to flourish.
Humans will naturally float towards cynicism, versus optimism. The prior takes less work, and on a genuine level, easier to build with other large groups of people. This thread is an example of that.
Just as much as ignorant positivity needs checked, so does virulent negativity.

Do not mistake unpopular facts for skepticism and cynicism.

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#15117 3 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,200 16

Quoted from cpr9999:

Checking LinkedIn- some of those people are listed as being at DR still. But very few!!
For example - SEAN GIBSON is now VP of Operations.

Yeah, I didn't take the time to check every single one with linked in, but there are an enormous amount of staff gone. 31 staff down to 6 is pretty dire. Even if it was 12 left, double what they show, that's still dire. So yeah, Direroot.

Starting to feel like...

iraqi-ali (resized).jpgiraqi-ali (resized).jpg
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#15118 3 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,425 249

Quoted from benheck:

Gone or not gone (guessing gone) what did the Utah crew do exactly? The animation seen on RAZA is (for the most part) extremely basic and could be accomplished by one person using Adobe After Effects.
Did they animate for the most anticipated pin of all time FOOD TRUCK?
Also the engineering staff numbers are impressive but where did they all go? Was all prep work done for all 10 games and now they're fired? Is he running this like a video game company?

I have to love the blind faith people have. Heighway had manufacturing and failed. Deeproot doesn’t have a line to run machines or they would show it. Stern has production engineers and who does Deeproot have on that list to make a production line run?

This does not end well.

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#15119 3 years ago
 
WYZ

wesman

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

5y 92,800 3,526 7 7

Quoted from Scandell:

Do not mistake unpopular facts for skepticism and cynicism.

Yes, but you're an ex employee with a hatchet in hand, no? You and Robert both would have to be taken with a reasonable grain of salt by any objective bystander. Your skin in the game is literal skin, your time, skill, passion, etc. I understand and respect that.

Any reasonable person questions all sides.

And why does this thread exist? What fuels it daily? Why does it have far more longevity than the preorder thread has and will?

People gravitate more towards hate, than hope, natively so. See the last 4 painful years for a grand, nauseating, global example of that.

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#15120 3 years ago
 
SAC

Scandell

Pinside member

US Salt Lake City, UT

4y 66,300 588 9 10

Quoted from wesman:

Yes, but you're an ex employee with a hatchet in hand, no? You and Robert both would have to be taken with a reasonable grain of salt by any objective bystander. Your skin in the game is literal skin, your time, skill, passion, etc. I understand and respect that.
Any reasonable person questions all sides.
And why does this thread exist? What fuels it daily? Why does it have far more longevity than the preorder thread has and will?
People gravitate more towards hate, than hope, natively so. See the last 4 painful years for a grand, nauseating, global example of that.

no hatchet. For my part. I wasn’t at DR long enough to feel unfairly treated. Just love pinball.

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#15121 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

It's an industry fraught with failed startups.

You've got a hack who tricks people with commissioned art and a rich dude who only cares about art who's obsessed with said hack.

If that doesn't set off red flags have your optometrist check you for color blindness.

Are we driving back into pre-SKITB times where no criticism was allowed until after millions had been lost?

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#15122 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

You can have an opinion and speculate all you want.

If you are correct you get NOTHING other than the satisfaction of watching a failed venture go down the toilet and bringing out the “I told you so” towels.

If you are wrong, you still get NOTHING

But once again, I appreciate everyone’s advice on how I should spend my f ing money. Thank you very little!

Ben is def hanging out the wrong people and that’s just my opinion.

Now, back to more titties Ted!

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#15123 3 years ago
 
WYZ

wesman

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

5y 92,800 3,526 7 7

Quoted from Scandell:

no hatchet. For my part. I wasn’t at DR long enough to feel unfairly treated. Just love pinball.

I'm glad to hear that. Carrying anguish has it's toll, as much as the initial wound.

Quoted from benheck:

It's an industry fraught with failed startups.
You've got a hack who tricks people with commissioned art and a rich dude who only cares about art who's obsessed with said hack.
If that doesn't set off red flags have your optometrist check you for color blindness.
Are we driving back into pre-SKITB times where no criticism was allowed until after millions had been lost?

There's a very specific difference between criticism and bloodlust. Come on man, the vitriol in this thread is as real as the skepticism NEEDS to be. Difference is skepticism has value, vitriol is irrational and has no use except as a rallying call for increased hate.

For my two cents, I'd be genuinely surprised if this game doesn't get manufactured at this point. To develop an entire machine, new UI with a new interface, finalized art, mechs, code, etc....and then do what with it? Gain a few hundred thousand in preorder cash and run away???

Seems more unlikely than producing games.

Also, questioning the entire company also means questioning known people like Steve Bowden, David Thiel, and Barry Oursler. So for all of the Robert/Jpop/We've Seen This Before People, do you feel comfortable discrediting those industry veterans/known entities as well?

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#15124 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

While I’m waiting for RAZA I was just told my GNRCE will arrive in 2-3 weeks!

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#15125 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

“Also, questioning the entire company also means questioning known people like Steve Bowden, David Thiel, and Barry Oursler. So for all of the Robert/Jpop/We've Seen This Before People, do you feel comfortable discrediting those industry veterans/known entities as well?”

It doesn’t fit the narrative by failing to credit these guys

Those guys surely must only remain because they are getting paychecks from a broke company with end near? Lol

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#15126 3 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,936 3 14

Quoted from hank527:

I have to love the blind faith people have. Heighway had manufacturing and failed. Deeproot doesn’t have a line to run machines or they would show it. Stern has production engineers and who does Deeproot have on that list to make a production line run?
This does not end well.

Heighway never had real manufacturing, they had maybe a 50% start on a manufacturing. Seriously, go back and watch the video:

They acquired a few pieces of used capital equipment, a few conveyors, a temporary tent for printing artwork, parts bins sitting on a temporary cart (not overhead shelving), and assemblers using hand screwdrivers (real manufacturers use pnematic drivers with torque settings, or at the very least some DC electric drivers with torque settings).
heighway_pinball_manufacturing (resized).pngheighway_pinball_manufacturing (resized).png

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#15127 3 years ago
 
BAD

BC_Gambit

PinMod Industries

Unknown

11y 70,550 3,532

Quoted from iceman44:

You can have an opinion and speculate all you want.
If you are correct you get NOTHING other than the satisfaction of watching a failed venture go down the toilet and bringing out the “I told you so” towels.
If you are wrong, you still get NOTHING
But once again, I appreciate everyone’s advice on how I should spend my f ing money. Thank you very little!
Ben is def hanging out the wrong people and that’s just my opinion.
Now, back to more titties Ted!

Definitely not black and white. Discussing clear warning flags is okay, I don't think going the "chest thumping everything's fine idiots" route is really that helpful either (thinking back to a particular Predator and Heighway defender).

I mean if you put your money forward to this venture despite the prior repeated broken commitments, waiver that you have to sign in case you get a crappy barely playable game, admission "our first games are not going to be 100%, we need your help fixing stuff", and more stuff that I can't even remember, you are braver than I am. That does not mean I want them to fail, but the reality I see suggests a much higher likelihood of failure than success.

I mean this company could not even stick the reveal landing; how many different ways did that go sideways. Repeated delays, initially showing off a crappy prototype game "on purpose to get feedback", more delays, bringing in pinball media, followed by more delays, then putting a game on test or something, finally followed by a 15 minute or so video of some people playing and talking about the game. Wow.

Then getting "tricked" into trying to trick buyers into some FOMO by only keeping orders open for a month or so, to get blindsided by at least one major Stern release and other rumored releases to bite into your sales. I mean if you were trying to fail, you could not do a better job.

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#15128 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,234

Quoted from wesman:

Humans will naturally float towards cynicism, versus optimism. The prior takes less work, and on a genuine level, easier to build with other large groups of people. This thread is an example of that.

This thread was someone trying to sell you something... at great expense. Who also promised the world. Being skeptical of salesmen promising utopia in exchange for large sums of money isn’t cynicism - it is due diligence.

Never mind the hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in other previous “optimism” threads where people shouted down anything that wasn’t about how great things will be. Yeah... that was swell...

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#15129 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

I'm not trying to discredit (the vast majority) of deeproot employees. Obviously they are all pros, and I really miss my Space Shuttle (was too lazy to move it).

There's just a lot of red flags that people shouldn't ignore. You can't just throw cash in an empty room to make production appear, it takes talent and time.

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#15130 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,234

Quoted from wesman:

For my two cents, I'd be genuinely surprised if this game doesn't get manufactured at this point. To develop an entire machine, new UI with a new interface, finalized art, mechs, code, etc....and then do what with it? Gain a few hundred thousand in preorder cash and run away???
Seems more unlikely than producing games.

You do realize that last alternative doesn’t just happen because you will it...

Many companies fold because they can’t get over that line successfully.... or doing so puts them so far in the hole things can’t recover.

Robert clearly wants to ship some games to prove his company. The question isn’t taking the money and running. It is... will they honestly be able to produce games at any volume and actually make a business of it. Or is it just a proving point and the business is broken up

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#15131 3 years ago
 
OFF

spoke

Pinside member

US Bridgton, ME

6y 31,400 153 11

Given the size of Robert's ego, and the fact this is other people money, I have no doubt at least a few games will get built and shipped. Robert will want his name on the marquee on at least a few games out in the world.

So we all believe they needed order qty so they could go order parts, but they probably already have sample parts for a dozen or so machines, probably enough to meet their 'zidware obligations'. So, what will happen is the will get a few 'lab built' machines (not sure why people keeping say say "hand built", all pinball machines are built by hand) shipped out in January. Those 'invested' will say "see, they are shipping games, watch out Stern!".

Question is, after those first few ship, will the rest ever see the light of day? We all know that pretty much any company, not named Zidware, can get a few lab built games built and shipped, and the building them in cost effective way at a reasonable volume is the challenge. Then again, do they need to get to high volume at this point, some RAZA buyers have waited five+ years, what's another 9 months? How much production volume do you really think they will need for food truck?

So maybe quad production is four guys in a lab, averaging one game a day, and maybe that is good enough to meet demand.

As long as Robert can't find more investors DR will stick around. Forget about RAZA sales recovering much if any of the R&D of RAZA or anything else, as I suspect they will have a hard time just breaking even on the parts and labor for building these machines. So, while this will provide some revenue, if the bank account is getting low, and that is why the staff has been trimmed down so far down, this is not going to help that much.

four designers probably made sense to Robert, because pinball was easy and they were going to have multiple games ready in a year (or whatever crazy ass time frame it was). Regardless of whether pinball is easy or hard, it does take time, especially to do it right, and 2+ years longer of a massive monthly burn, and no revenue, as a result of this bravado, is what might ultimately be what buries this company.

So far, as far we know, DR has yet to screw over any customers, so all is good. I was going to say anyone, but sounds like maybe some employees are not happy and I have to think investors are not happy.

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#15132 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Definitely not black and white. Discussing clear warning flags is okay, I don't think going the "chest thumping everything's fine idiots" route is really that helpful either (thinking back to a particular Predator and Heighway defender).
I mean if you put your money forward to this venture despite the prior repeated broken commitments, waiver that you have to sign in case you get a crappy barely playable game, admission "our first games are not going to be 100%, we need your help fixing stuff", and more stuff that I can't even remember, you are braver than I am. That does not mean I want them to fail, but the reality I see suggests a much higher likelihood of failure than success.
I mean this company could not even stick the reveal landing; how many different ways did that go sideways. Repeated delays, initially showing off a crappy prototype game "on purpose to get feedback", more delays, bringing in pinball media, followed by more delays, then putting a game on test or something, finally followed by a 15 minute or so video of some people playing and talking about the game. Wow.
Then getting "tricked" into trying to trick buyers into some FOMO by only keeping orders open for a month or so, to get blindsided by at least one major Stern release and other rumored releases to bite into your sales. I mean if you were trying to fail, you could not do a better job.

I believe once again you are totally mistaken

Nobody is “chest thumping” f ing anything. But trying to lump this venture in with Predator or Heighway is just plain ignorance of the FACTS

If we can have a little excitement then I’ll make sure to get your approval first

But thanks anyhow

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#15133 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

And btw, it’s my opinion that Raza blows away that pos LZ

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#15134 3 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,425 249

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Heighway never had real manufacturing, they had maybe a 50% start on a manufacturing. Seriously, go back and watch the video:
They acquired a few pieces of used capital equipment, a few conveyors, a temporary tent for printing artwork, parts bins sitting on a temporary cart (not overhead shelving), and assemblers using hand screwdrivers (real manufacturers use pnematic drivers with torque settings, or at the very least some DC electric drivers with torque settings).
[quoted image]

I know and they showed it. They made games and failed. People lost lots of money. What does Deeproot have? Not even as far as Heighway was.

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#15135 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from spoke:

Given the size of Robert's ego, and the fact this is other people money, I have no doubt at least a few games will get built and shipped. Robert will want his name on the marquee on at least a few games out in the world.

So we all believe they needed order qty so they could go order parts, but they probably already have sample parts for a dozen or so machines, probably enough to meet their 'zidware obligations'. So, what will happen is the will get a few 'lab built' machines (not sure why people keeping say say "hand built", all pinball machines are built by hand) shipped out in January. Those 'invested' will say "see, they are shipping games, watch out Stern!".

Major league up-vote especially the first two paragraphs. Worth a re-read IMO.

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#15136 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from hank527:

I know and they showed it. They made games and failed. People lost lots of money. What does Deeproot have? Not even as far as Heighway was.

Millions of dollars. What do you think “lots of money” means?

PB say lost one million.

DR has raised $34 million

Let’s try and deal with the FACTS here

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#15137 3 years ago
 
BAD

BC_Gambit

PinMod Industries

Unknown

11y 70,550 3,532

Quoted from iceman44:

And btw, it’s my opinion that Raza blows away that pos LZ

Your opinion is wrong

And yes, I am just being argumentative... I will say I think the odds of a RAZA selling at above the preorder price (one year after release say) is larger than somehow LZ selling at more than retail. So RAZA wins being a better speculative investment. Yay.

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#15138 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

I like the constant drumbeat of people sounding the Code Red alerts!

Where were you back in 2013 Ben when Jpop was stealing our $$$ and you said nothing then?

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#15139 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Your opinion is wrong
And yes, I am just being argumentative... I will say I think the odds of a RAZA selling at above the preorder price (one year after release say) is larger than somehow LZ selling at more than retail. So RAZA wins being a better speculative investment. Yay.

Your uninformed opinion is wrong. See how that works

Raza wins in every way over LZ except theme

And hey, I am the first to criticize the pure shit execution of DR to this point

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#15140 3 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,200 16

Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Your opinion is wrong
And yes, I am just being argumentative... I will say I think the odds of a RAZA selling at above the preorder price (one year after release say) is larger than somehow LZ selling at more than retail. So RAZA wins being a better speculative investment. Yay.

Cosmic Carnival and Thunderbirds would like a word with you. Rarity does not automatically equal value/desirability.

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#15141 3 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,540

Look at the employees left. It’s a design studio, not a manufacturing company. They would be better off using a local contract manufacturer at this point.

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#15142 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from kermit24:

Look at the employees left. It’s a design studio, not a manufacturing company. They would be better off using a local contract manufacturer at this point.

Hope they are for the preorder people - because it will take awhile to get a machine with people building these in a lab.
We will know soon....

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#15143 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Somehow, with all of the temporary high school “talent” that was cobbled together in the early days Spooky managed to get games out and keep going.

American Pinball, AP, and I’ve never seen their production line, has managed to produce some awfully nice games of super
High quality. Maybe they came from the “pinball fairy” or Santa Claus?

CGC has produced some of the most amazing quality gorgeous remakes! Somehow, who knows?

Thus, one can conclude, with all that “talent” and money on hand at DR that it is certainly POSSIBLE that they too can put together pinball games

I’m sure the high school talent is just as good here in San Antonio!

You would have to have your head so far up your ass not to understand the “risks” involved if you have been around pinball and pinside at all!

That said, we are about to find out boys, the orders are in and the building will begin

Yes, failure is a possibility. I’m not sure what satisfaction those rooting for it get?

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#15144 3 years ago
 
BAD

BC_Gambit

PinMod Industries

Unknown

11y 70,550 3,532

Quoted from iceman44:

Raza wins in every way over LZ except theme

I hope you are right!

Quoted from iceman44:

And hey, I am the first to criticize the pure shit execution of DR to this point

We agree; I am just in the "prove it" camp at this point. I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt (or my money) when everything else is flashing "danger will Robinson".

Quoted from PinMonk:

Cosmic Carnival and Thunderbirds would like a word with you. Rarity does not automatically equal value/desirability.

Agreed obviously; there are some pins that I would have trouble taking for any price as I would not wanting them to take up one of the slots in my collection for more than a few plays. I have to hope that RAZA plays better than both of those (and I have played Thunderbirds a handful of times..., no such experience on Cosmic Carnival).

Given people now seem to be asking near MM money for some of the older JPOP games his games have their fans. If somehow RAZA is limited to 100 to 200 units, it can play like crap and have terminal hardware issues and still have collectors fighting over owning it for bragging rights.

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#15145 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from iceman44:

Yes, failure is a possibility. I’m not sure what satisfaction those rooting for it get?

While I have less faith today that DR will succeed I hope they do for the sake of the preorder people.

However, this above Iceman statement sums up many of the responses in this thread. There seems to be real rooting for failure here and I am going to ask people who post here from time to time - why is that - even though it may sound annoying. I really want to know.

If you got burned by Jpop, then by all means state that and you have a legit beef - if you are just piling on I will be annoying
Piling on adds nothing to the forum content to move the discussion forward.

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#15146 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,888 28 49

Quoted from BC_Gambit:

We agree; I am just in the "prove it" camp at this point. I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt (or my money) when everything else is flashing "danger will Robinson".

I'd have to totally agree that waiting to see some results is the 100% smart thing to do!

I've waited since 2013 and they need gamblers like myself to go bravely into the deep dark night!

The drama is part of the FUN and excitement for me. And if i'm gonna blow money, it won't be the first time or the last. I'm here for the journey and the fun of the hobby.

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#15147 3 years ago
 
WYZ

wesman

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

5y 92,800 3,526 7 7

Quoted from kermit24:

Look at the employees left. It’s a design studio, not a manufacturing company. They would be better off using a local contract manufacturer at this point.

Why would they list line workers on the page with the creative team?

I don't see many companies posting photos of each and every grunt that's employed. I certainly know my photo, of several hundred grunt workers, isn't posted anywhere in our building/online.

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#15148 3 years ago
 
BRC

jellikit

Pinside member

US Plainfield, IL

11y 106K 4,453 6

hny.gifhny.gif
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#15149 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,234

Quoted from iceman44:

I like the constant drumbeat of people sounding the Code Red alerts!
Where were you back in 2013 Ben when Jpop was stealing our $$$ and you said nothing then?

People said plenty.. but people like you did exactly like you are doing now..

Here's a keeper...

OP
Quoted from iceman44:

Zidware isn't going bankrupt anytime soon so there won't be any "section 363 sale".
If anything, Jpop should do a joint venture with JJP, if they would ever have him, gotta be a way to make it work and may be the only hope to get these pins "manufactured".

Or how about concerns about lack of focus on the finish line... and JPOPs repeated problems with finishing projects?

Quoted from flynnibus:

Well he certainly seemed focus on 'ideas' and less about being a sustainable company. His priorities were all out of whack. I can understand saying 'we need to roll the creatives onto the next title so there isn't a huge lag period...' as that's what a manager focusing on the big picture would say. But Jpop was just endlessly revising and hopping around. He need a business partner that would do things like require he make CHOICES and face things like DEADLINES.
Jpop maybe thought he could make a 'no compromise' game if he was given unlimited time and money.. and thought 16k games or something meant 'unlimited money'. But that doesn't account for actually sustaining the business itself during that period.
It was a concept doomed from the start given you gave the artist sole decision power.

Hrmm.. doomed from the start... yet here we are 6 years later, and THREE more companies have bought into this same failed design.

This post says it succinctly...

Quoted from Honch:

I'm surprised everyone is talking about how great the game looks. I don't think there was ever any doubt the games would look awesome (that's what he does), its the getting built part that is still in question.

But please... keep telling us 'where were you when...' - You were just one of the cheerleaders back then too, no shock your memory of the time is hazy.

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#15150 3 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,200 16

Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Given people now seem to be asking near MM money for some of the older JPOP games his games have their fans. If somehow RAZA is limited to 100 to 200 units, it can play like crap and have terminal hardware issues and still have collectors fighting over owning it for bragging rights.

Jpop's B/W/M games are often attractive (Star Wars Ep 1 and WCS'94 excepted), and I've had them all, but I don't really want any of them again. They're more like interactive art and way too shallow. I Joined the Cirqus the first day I had Cirqus Voltaire. That sucked.

Cirqus Voltaire
Star Wars Ep 1
Tales of the Arabian Nights
Theatre of Magic
World Cup Soccer

I dunno. Maaaaaybe collectors would want a broken game just to say they had it, but the bloom was off having a blinky mostly non-functional Magic Girl pretty fast.

For direroot, I was much more interested in what Dennis Nordman and Barry Oursler were doing, so I hope for the sake of their pins that RAZA does well enough to get Dennis' and Barry's made, too.

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