Kellogg, IA
Quoted from Mr68:What warranty option would that be? Last I heard buyers are signing a blanket indemnity contract.
You can 'buy' a warranty.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Alice in Wonderland
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Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
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Quoted from Mr68:What warranty option would that be? Last I heard buyers are signing a blanket indemnity contract.
Now we are talkin...same as other pinball manufacturers on playfields. LOL.
Maybe the purchase warranty option would offer something.
Quoted from Zablon:You can 'buy' a warranty.
Great. I would like to read that warranty. That way I could compare it to what other companies are providing at no extra charge.
Quoted from cpr9999:Controversy?
In the pre-order thread my understanding was people trying to figure out serial #'s vs order #'s etc.
No controversy, just a bunch of pre-order people figure out the numbering scheme.
If your comment is that there may not be 200+ games ordered or DR miss led people - time will tell on this one.
I have no evidence they did, so not calling them on it.
EDIT again!!....5 people ordered in the last 3 hours...and they were 209, 210 and 211, 212, 213 on order #'s. So I have to believe these are the up and up....
Screen shot from the Raza Pre-order thread:
zzzzzzzraza (resized).pngQuoted from Zablon:I like what I see. I like that they are making some changes to things that have been 'this way' forever. I think RAZA itself and gameplay wise looks no worse than any number of games released in the last 5 years. I think the low end model is decently priced for what you get. I think DR as a company has a lot to prove before people are going to jump behind them. Hope all goes well and I see one of these out in the wild sometime.
We can always use another pinball manufacturer.
AMEN!!!! 
Quoted from cpr9999:Perfect timing - games released by Easter built by the Easter bunny - I like the way you think.
Just remember... the easter bunny didn't take preorder money and no one has lost money with the easter bunny... so I don't know why you all won't just give him the benefit of the doubt.
Quoted from benheck:Ya'll do realize that quad & octo manufacturing were never really a thing right? Just more "bullshit JPOP words" to slap on a flyer like "Quickstep solenoids"
Hopefully for the buyers they have something real setup.
I'm confused. Isn't this the exact reason everyone is making so much fun of it?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I'm confused. Isn't this the exact reason everyone is making so much fun of it?
Evidently. Frankly I don't care how they build RAZA provided it comes out just like the ones they showed off. I also don't understand why some Pinsiders care soooo strongly about it either. There's always this time-proven technique to fall back on...
piss on that spark plug (resized).jpgQuoted from flynnibus:Just remember... the easter bunny didn't take preorder money and no one has lost money with the easter bunny... so I don't know why you all won't just give him the benefit of the doubt.
Oh my Easter bunny always takes my money before we get treats! Nothings free in life or without risk.
Quoted from Mr68:Screen shot from the Raza Pre-order thread:
[quoted image]
Time will tell sooner or later what the final numbers are.
Also I suspect if manufacturing goes better than they plan, they will offer RAZA for sale again. Again time will tell.
FYI, If they successfully fill all orders wether that is 100 or 200 and Zidware customers get theirs along with new people we should all be singing praises to DR.
Quoted from cpr9999:FYI, If they successfully fill all orders wether that is 100 or 200 and Zidware customers get theirs along with new people we should all be singing praises to DR.
PM sent. I better not post what my response to that is. 
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I'm confused. Isn't this the exact reason everyone is making so much fun of it?
Oh, that's good then. Just hoping people didn't think it was some real, yet unknown magical secret.
Quoted from NoQuarters:PM sent. I better not post what my response to that is.
Which songs do you want to sing?
I figured you would wait until they start shipping!
Actually I emailed you... Check your mail. ... My response might not have even made it past the PM system.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Actually I emailed you... Check your mail. ... My response might not have even made it past the PM system.
Ah I see it - you are waiting for Food truck to come out.
Oh wait I might be exaggerating.
Quoted from benheck:Ya'll do realize that quad & octo manufacturing were never really a thing right? Just more "bullshit JPOP words" to slap on a flyer like "Quickstep solenoids"
Hopefully for the buyers they have something real setup.
I was thinking the Octo manufacturing was the use of an Octopus putting the games together.
Quoted from Zablon:I like what I see. I like that they are making some changes to things that have been 'this way' forever. I think RAZA itself and gameplay wise looks no worse than any number of games released in the last 5 years. I think the low end model is decently priced for what you get. I think DR as a company has a lot to prove before people are going to jump behind them. Hope all goes well and I see one of these out in the wild sometime.
We can always use another pinball manufacturer.
Successful manufacturer. More scamming is not okay.
Quoted from hank527:Successful manufacturer. More scamming is not okay.
Time will tell if they (DR) can manufacture - patience. If you are right you can let us know. If you are not you can let us know.
Quoted from cpr9999:FYI, If they successfully fill all orders wether that is 100 or 200 and Zidware customers get theirs along with new people we should all be singing praises to DR.
I'm a sceptic, not an asshole and have stated all along in this thread about my support for the Zidware people. I'm glad to give Deeproot credit once they accomplish shipping all games from their secret facility and by the deadline dates. After that will be quality control and other issues but lets just stick with getting the games out for now.
The buying window closes at 3:00 tomorrow and the real work needs to already be underway for those phase one machines to make the deadline.
Believe it or not, I'm captivated by the suspense.
Quoted from Mr68:I'm a sceptic, not an asshole and have stated all along in this thread about my support for the Zidware people. I'm glad to give Deeproot credit once they accomplish shipping all games from their secret facility and by the deadline dates. After that will be quality control and other issues but lets just stick with getting the games out for now.
The buying window closes at 3:00 tomorrow and the real work needs to already be underway for those phase one machines to make the deadline.
Believe it or not, I'm captivated by the suspense.
We all are captive to see if they will do this or not. We Will know shortly over next 2-3 months on what they can ship or not.
Quoted from Mr68:Screenshot from TWIP interview a little over a year ago. My how the mighty have fallen.
[quoted image]
This is the kind of crap I remember from the marketing idiot at DP (don't recall his name right now). Although a lot of people thought the crap he was spewing was fantastic, he came across as a used car salesman to me. Anything to make a sale.
Quoted from cpr9999:We all are captive to see if they will do this or not. We Will know shortly over next 2-3 months on what they can ship or not.
Six weeks from announcement is January 20th for the phase one machines to ship. No harm in joining me for a little skepticism on that if you like.
I was just reading the FAQ on the website. Here is one of the items in the FAQ:
"Will there be more RAZA's to buy later on?
We will never make RAZA again. However, we will round up our production lots; meaning there will be a few extra units available after the run. We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided for start up risk and delays in receiving games."
Based on this I assume the "real price" of their future games will be in the 8k range for an Arcade edition. So much for their games being "more for less".
Quoted from brucipher:I was just reading the FAQ on the website. Here is one of the items in the FAQ:
"Will there be more RAZA's to buy later on?
We will never make RAZA again. However, we will round up our production lots; meaning there will be a few extra units available after the run. We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided for start up risk and delays in receiving games."
Based on this I assume the "real price" of their future games will be in the 8k range for an Arcade addition. So much for their games being "more for less".
The RAZA pricing always seemed arbitrary. I figured there would be huge increases once they truly start the factory line and actually figure out how much these cost to build. Especially if they are committed to the idea of small runs and not re-running things
Quoted from brucipher:We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided
on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.
Quoted from greenhornet:on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.
Which means JJP pricing, on themes like “Food Truck” and “The Zany Castle” or whatever. That said, I did buy a P3 for “Heist” and it was worth every dime.
Quoted from greenhornet:in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs.
The low prices would be unsustainable even without massive startup and development costs. Add in various new technologies, and the price bumps even higher. I have a pretty good idea what it costs to manufacture pinball machines... stripped down ones, ones rich in traditional pinball features, and ones packed full of innovations.
The only way to get prices down much on complete machines is to increase volumes by a LOT, strip out features, or ship junk. Well... assuming you want to be profitable.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Carlisle, ON
Quoted from greenhornet:on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.
I agree that this type of pricing will fundamentally change the landscape of Deeproot's market. If their "greater value at lesser price" promise is truly broken, then I really wonder where the buyers will come from now?
Quoted from greenhornet:on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.
Reading on business start ups one would think you should go in and undercut the big guy on the street (Stern in this exact case).
In fact, business cases suggest the opposite. For the few games they-DR produce compared to a Stern game (100s vs 1000s) the business models actually suggest price your “innovative” product higher than the market. This is what JJP, DP do for example. (BY the way these niche low volume game help establish your business, manufacturing, systems, etc). Once established (could take years) then lower prices, streamline operations and watch your pennies invested to maximize profits (sound like Stern?)
Look up business examples & models. Note - Tesla was / is a great example of this. Their long-term business model from day 1 was to build an electric car for the mass market (but their short term planning model was to offer high end cars to rake in profit to fund their long-term goal). This is well documented - FYI.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:That said, I did buy a P3 for “Heist” and it was worth every dime.
Boy howdy. Game of the year IMO and probably won't even get nominated.
Quoted from cpr9999:For the few games they-DR produce compared to a Stern game (100s vs 1000s) the business models actually suggest price your “innovative” product higher than the market.
That all makes sense IF your new product is truly innovative. Buyers will pay for innovation. But IS the Deeproot offering an innovation???
Quoted from JimWilks:That all makes sense IF your new product is truly innovative. Buyers will pay for innovation. But IS the Deeproot offering an innovation???
That is fair question. But it is in the eye of the buyer.
If they have sales in 200-300 range someone thought it certainly is.
If you follow Tesla- everyone said the same about the Tesla Pinbar!!! (The big touch screen in it that runs everything - very few buttons).
For me, RAZA / DR is intriguing to watch. I think they would have done 500+ game orders for RAZA if they would have went through distributors that held the down payment.
Quoted from cpr9999:That is fair question. Bits in the eye of the buyer.
If they have sales in 200-300 range someone thought it certainly is.
RAZA was NOT selling at these "new" price levels. I think these sort of "new" price levels would have driven down the RAZA numbers. Also, if they had not had the "captive" Zidware buyers, the RAZA numbers would be even lower.
Quoted from cpr9999:For me, RAZA / DR is intriguing to watch.
I think they would have done 500+ game orders for RAZA if they would have went through distributors that held the down payment.
1. Like a train wreck.
2. Pffft - not a chance. I don't think they got any interest from any legit distributor anyhow.
I think you have been working from home too long. Lay off the cheap beer or booze. 
Quoted from JimWilks:RAZA was NOT selling at these "new" price levels. I think these sort of "new" price levels would have driven down the RAZA numbers. Also, if they had not had the "captive" Zidware buyers, the RAZA numbers would be even lower.
Fair enough.
I suspect the “rounded up” production numbers at $8/$13k will sell no problem.
Also, their next title will tell more. Sounds like their pinball platform is developed so we will understand their future pricing model.
Time will tell....
Quoted from NoQuarters:1.Like a train wreck.
2. Pffft - not a chance. I don't think they got any interest from any legit distributor anyhow.
I think you have been working from home too long. Lay off the cheap beer or booze.
Maybe your right to much beer!
I applied to be their distributor but never heard anything! I could sell from my basement 
Quoted from JimWilks:That all makes sense IF your new product is truly innovative. Buyers will pay for innovation. But IS the Deeproot offering an innovation???
Yes, they are offering plenty of it.
The problem, as I’ve always said, is pinball and innovation don’t mix at this stage of the game. If pinball isn’t “innovative” enough for you in 2020, you really should find a new hobby. People say they want innovation but they really don’t.
Because whatever “innovation” is offered to you will likely be pointless and suck.
Quoted from cpr9999:Fair enough.
I suspect the “rounded up” production numbers at $8/$13k will sell no problem.
Also, their next title will tell more. Sounds like their pinball platform is developed so we will understand their future pricing model.
Time will tell....
Your thinking like Deeproot is a company equivalent to say - Rockwell or something. No No - More like Shamwow .
Quoted from NoQuarters:Your thinking like Deeproot is a company equivalent to say - Rockwell or something. No No - More like Shamwow .
Lol. The Shamwow company did 3-5 Million in sales of Rags. What a fail?
Quoted from Yelobird:Lol. The Shamwow company did 3-5 Million in sales of Rags. What a fail?
Innovation.
Don't think Deeproot pinball will do as well as the magical innovative rag though.
The comparison was more big time vs Mickey Mouse. (Don't bring up Disney) You missed the point.
Shamwow is a great hustle. Aggressive sales technique on a very cheap to produce item
Pinball is not that lol.
Quoted from gstellenberg:The low prices would be unsustainable even without massive startup and development costs. Add in various new technologies, and the price bumps even higher. I have a pretty good idea what it costs to manufacture pinball machines... stripped down ones, ones rich in traditional pinball features, and ones packed full of innovations.
The only way to get prices down much on complete machines is to increase volumes by a LOT, strip out features, or ship junk. Well... assuming you want to be profitable.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Congrats on the success of Heist Gerry! I hope it leads to bigger things for you guys in 2021
Gotta start somewhere like you did
I will give factory drive by updates in January
Quoted from TreyBo69:Shamwow is a great hustle. Aggressive sales technique on a very cheap to produce item
Pinball is not that lol.
Yup this is a hustle too - won't turn out like Shamwow. They were shooting for that early on though Ferrari type pin with Kia pricing or what ever they were spouting at one time.
Hey - they missed doing the pinrag, for cleaning your game !
Quoted from NoQuarters:Yup this is a hustle too - won't turn out like Shamwow. They were shooting for that early on though Ferrari type pin with Kia pricing or what ever they were spouting at one time.
It’s not a hustle. They either make it or they don’t.
Gerry recruited some investors. These guys raised well over $30 million dollars
Quoted from NoQuarters:Yup this is a hustle too - won't turn out like Shamwow. They were shooting for that early on though Ferrari type pin with Kia pricing or what ever they were spouting at one time.
Hey - they missed doing the pinrag, for cleaning your game !
Excuse me it’s the PinRag™
Quoted from iceman44:Congrats on the success of Heist Gerry! I hope it leads to bigger things for you guys in 2021
Gotta start somewhere like you did
I will give factory drive by updates in January
Agree - talk about innovation. I just watched the Heist/P3 system- game of the year - lots of innovation!! Nice work.
Quoted from greenhornet:on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.
My take, they dont even deliver a pin to customers, so all of this is irrelevant. Production is the hard part...
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