(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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#101 1 year ago
Quoted from oohlou:

I don't know about you guys but I'm psyched for "the 5 days of deeproot"!!!!

"Sure. Why not?"

#102 1 year ago
Quoted from oohlou:

I don't know about you guys but I'm psyched for "the 5 days of deeproot"!!!!

did they say when the 5 days starts? That is the obvious follow up question.

#103 1 year ago
Quoted from bkbirge:

Apparently there's a fine line between confidence and Dunning-Kruger. Great interview though, nice to read a company interview that isn't a soft pedal.

This dunning-Kruger namecheck made my day. Sums it up to a T.

#104 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The more I think about it, the more I'm dumbfounded that these guys wanted to work with and associate with JPOP.
Personally, I have 3-4 game designs sketched out. I'm sure most enthusiasts have doodled some design of their own. It's not that hard to find someone with ideas. If anyone wanders into the homebrew forums here or on other pinball sites, there is a remarkable abundance of talent and interesting designs.
Deeproot could have easily avoided all the unnecessary baggage that came with JPOP. Yet the minute they discovered what a hot potato he was, they doubled down?
And then left the victims who decided to do something about their predicament completely out in the cold?
I'm certainly not getting a warm fuzzy feeling from these guys.

The owner is alleged to be an insurance scammer, isn’t he ? This is just a place for him to park losses for tax avoidance. No machine will ever come out of that office

#105 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

"Sure. Why not?"

I was waiting for him to say "We're going to make tremendous pinball, believe me, 100%. Liddle' Jack is fake pinball. Sad."

#106 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

did they say when the 5 days starts? That is the obvious follow up question.

That IS an obvious follow up, this interviewer must be some sort of amateur.

The "5 days of deeproot" would be closer to launch when/if they get to that point.

22
#107 1 year ago

On the 5th day of deeproot, Jpop gave to meeee....

5 years of nothing!
4 unfinished games!
3 sacks of stolen cash!
2 boatloads full of lies!
...and one neverending SCAM!!!!!

11
#108 1 year ago

In discussion with other past pinball designers (not modern) and industry support personnel offline, all moved quickly away from the potential prospects of employment within Deeproot. There is no reason to tarnish a professional reputation or be grossly entangled in added ruthless strong armed litigations by investors with no experience regarding direct pinball manufacturing (not historical individual interests).

This is not the proper baseline for establishing a pinball company.

This is further referenced by the launch of their website which is completely overwhelmed with worded legalities and no proper referenced aspects of understanding the fundamentals of pinball production. It looks from macro perspective more akin to an attempt to conduct a hostile takeover rather than a desire to integrate into this industry, a typical mindset approach of most corporate maligned attorneys, and highly damages public relations. There are finite amounts of resources and construction tooling available to make pinball games, none of which are inclusive in provisions of large capital income investments, as will be discovered unless negotiated further contracts are successful with less than supportive companies. This also includes immediate attempts to outsource future construction or buy companies outright, which was already responded with a flat out, "no". Providing an estimated NLT 2019 delivery date of an unknown product, no established facilities (presently only a whiteboard of ideas), and no parts contracts is especially risky in the present pinball industry, there was no wisdom there. Who cares if they "won't take preorder money"? Hiding in the dark is not going to promote good faith of the company especially in the long term market, which is stalling. Will the product be even viable and cost efficient when ready to build? Hard to predict, but unlikely.

Less eloquently and stated, "they already pissed off a lot of people", but whether they even care, I do not know.
They already alienated a large proportion of the entire community with their claims, processes, and subjugations.
They unimpressed knowledgeable industry professionals, repeatedly.

I reflect upon experience long before 2011 in periods from 1970-1990s where the industry was more healthy (at points, but certainly not constant) and vibrant, and even those periods were extremely competitive and difficult to those that chose to undertake the challenge.

There is a reminder at least to myself of the old phrase, "a chicken in every pot" here, if a person opts to believe it correctly applies to the pinball aspirations of Deeproot.

The quote, "Sure. Why not?" will haunt this company forever.
These types of situations are cancerous to the industry.

Mag Eight Ball Why Not (resized).jpg

#109 1 year ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I reflect upon experience long before 2011 in periods from 1970-1990s ...

Shocker.

#110 1 year ago

I couldn't resist. The similarities are too spot on.

image (resized).jpeg

45
#111 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Can't believe no-one has commented on this yet:
******TWIP: Has pinsider Applejuice been paid in full for his work with Zidware? Is he owed a Magic Girl game?
dr: We have not heard from Applejuice. According to Zidware records that we have seen, Applejuice was paid over $100k, and has been in material breach of several terms of his agreement with Zidware for some time.*******
This does not exactly have the ring of truth to it ..... much like some of their other statements.
applejuice care to dignify this with a response?

Hello,

I have only just seen this on the TWIP site (yes i find out this type of thing second hand it seems on a public website....) , and to say the very least am quite shocked to be honest. I have no idea where they've got the 100k figure from, or why the tone is so aggressive???

I was contracted for over 2 years from August 2012 to August 2014 (if memory serves) but i started in June 2012 and i pulled the plug in May 2014 after being 3 months behind on invoice payments. I had 4 visits to Chicago during that time. My contract had a 2 year gag clause in it which i upheld and I even returned all my prototype assets in return for John paying up on the 3 months left which he never did of course.

This type of blatant lie and random statements is just really bizarre. All i've ever wanted was to be paid up in full for what i did and receive a game. That's it nothing more. I even created the magicgirlcode.org site and helped out owners on my own time with issues as i want this game to be a good one. Feel like i've being kicked in the nackers again.... !!

If it comes to it, then i'll just publish all my invoices with the dates and amounts, as i still have all my audited records!

#112 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Hello,
I have only just seen this on the TWIP site (yes i find out this type of thing second hand it seems on a public website....) , and to say the very least am quite shocked to be honest. I have no idea where they've got the 100k figure from, or why the tone is so aggressive???
I was contracted for over 2 years from August 2012 to August 2014 (if memory serves) but i started in June 2012 and i pulled the plug in May 2014 after being 3 months behind on invoice payments. I had 4 visits to Chicago during that time. My contract had a 2 year gag clause in it which i upheld and I even returned all my prototype assets in return for John paying up on the 3 months left which he never did of course.
This type of blatant lie and random statements is just really bizarre. All i've ever wanted was to be paid up in full for what i did and receive a game. That's it nothing more. I even created the magicgirlcode.org site and helped out owners on my own time with issues as i want this game to be a good one. Feel like i've being kicked in the nackers again.... !!
If it comes to it, then i'll just publish all my invoices with the dates and amounts, as i still have all my audited records!

Did Zidware/John at least pay for your flights over here?! A couple meals here and there?

#113 1 year ago

Thx for the interview and all the info. Things will be very interesting and entertaining for a while. Lots of confidence shown in that interview.

Just a suggestion, but be careful with your responses applejuice. Deep root qualified their statement in that answer so there's lots of wiggle room. You can see lawyer talk everywhere in the interview, and as has been noted they do seem open to pushing the litigation "button" when they find merit in it. ZY has gotten involved; I sincerely hope you get what you are due.

#114 1 year ago

Nothing would make me put down an enthusiastic pre-order faster than finding out the company I'm buying from is suing the programmer from Jpop's trashfire failures, that's the kind of dedication to customer service you can really trust.

#115 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Did Zidware/John at least pay for your flights over here?! A couple meals here and there?

Yes I think I’ve mentioned before I was paid for awhile as I worked on the projects for 2 years or so and flights, meals for trips were covered otherwise it would have been a non starter. It was the last 3 months that was the problem and why I pulled the plug early on the contract. Unfortunately at that time it was was my main source of income so when the 3 months didn’t materialise I was forced to sell around half my pin collection (7 games iirc)

It’s all documented on this flippin
Podcast when I chatted with tommy after the nda ended

#116 1 year ago

"Pinball is hard" seems to be the common consensus of all of the current pinball manufacturers. Deeproot seems to be taking an opposing standpoint on this. I find this puzzling yet interesting for many reasons.

That said if they are selling machines for 5K or less with industry leading quality I would tend to believe that their version of a pinball machine will not be what we are used to playing. Perhaps a modified/simplified version of pinball that's more affordable to manufacture and would appeal to people that aren't familiar with pinball.

The confidence and statments this company brings to the table are shocking. Are the other manufacturers intimidated...I would guess not. It will be interesting to see if they can live up to these public statements and hold themselves accountable should they not deliver.

#117 1 year ago
Quoted from stpcore:

"Pinball is hard" seems to be the common consensus of all of the current pinball manufacturers. Deeproot seems to be taking an opposing standpoint on this. I find this puzzling yet interesting for many reasons.
That said if they are selling machines for 5K or less with industry leading quality I would tend to believe that their version of a pinball machine will not be what we are used to playing. Perhaps a modified/simplified version of pinball that's more affordable to manufacture and would appeal to people that aren't familiar with pinball.
The confidence and statments this company brings to the table are shocking. Are the other manufacturers intimidated...I would guess not. It will be interesting to see if they can live up to these public statements and hold themselves accountable should they not deliver.

These guys are a joke and like most of the other Johnny-come-lately disasters this decade they will not be held accountable in any way shape or form. The only dummy who didn't make sure of that was the Predator guy.

#118 1 year ago
Quoted from stpcore:

That said if they are selling machines for 5K or less with industry leading quality I would tend to believe that their version of a pinball machine will not be what we are used to playing.

I took comments around price levels to imply manufacturing overseas in "free trade zones", or somewhere similar with inexpensive labor and possibly less inexpensive components.

Edit: They have a Texas based address, do they also have a plant there, or is that just offices?

#119 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Yes I think I’ve mentioned before I was paid for awhile as I worked on the projects for 2 years or so and flights, meals for trips were covered otherwise it would have been a non starter. It was the last 3 months that was the problem and why I pulled the plug early on the contract. Unfortunately at that time it was was my main source of income so when the 3 months didn’t materialise I was forced to sell around half my pin collection (7 games iirc)
It’s all documented on this flippin
Podcast when I chatted with tommy after the nda ended

Jim explained all of this in detail on This Flippin Podcast. He is a huge asset to the hobby. He has no reason to lie about anything and even if he had been paid $100k over the two years that would be in line with what Deeproot appears to be offering in salary which lends more validity to the fact that when he wasn’t paid for three months he took issue with it. Deeproot is entering a hobby full of people who by and large look out for one another and they don’t seem to have the slightest clue how offensive employing jpop is or the blame game they are now playing with previous employees and customers. I can’t say I wish them the best.

#120 1 year ago

It seemed like I should have been drinking kool-aid while reading that interview...

#121 1 year ago

Who gives a flying F what he was paid. He worked for that money as per his contract. No getting away from his contract not being fulfilled and he went 3 months with no pay, and no magic girl. That's the dispute.

This is the sideshow deeproot has taken on with them taking jpop, this is all part of the taint. And somehow jpop is worth it to them.

#122 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Nothing would make me put down an enthusiastic pre-order faster than finding out the company I'm buying from is suing the programmer from Jpop's trashfire failures, that's the kind of dedication to customer service you can really trust.

Doesn’t matter. If they somehow pull a rabbit out of their ass and have a full featured, JPOP designed, flipping game ready to go in the next year and half...many people will be lined up ready to buy. Especially if it is at the price point they seem to be implying.

#123 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballNewb:

Doesn’t matter. If they somehow pull a rabbit out of their ass and have a full featured, JPOP designed, flipping game ready to go in the next year and half...many people will be lined up ready to buy.

Sure, but how many pre-orders?

#124 1 year ago

Well, people love a comeback story. Maybe they're banking on that?

Personally I don't really enjoy JPops games (yes, I know I own one) and I think Magic Girl looks like the overstuffed disaster it is, so I can't see why him otherwise.

#125 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballNewb:

Doesn’t matter. If they somehow pull a rabbit out of their ass and have a full featured, JPOP designed, flipping game ready to go in the next year and half...many people will be lined up ready to buy. Especially if it is at the price point they seem to be implying.

Yeah, pinball is EASY!

#126 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballNewb:

Doesn’t matter. If they somehow pull a rabbit out of their ass and have a full featured, JPOP designed, flipping game ready to go in the next year and half...many people will be lined up ready to buy. Especially if it is at the price point they seem to be implying.

The chances of this actually happening reside much closer to none, than slim.

#127 1 year ago

I just discovered this thread - speechless.

Quoted from frolic:

John's reality distortion field is truly amazing.

Recommended reading for Deeproot:

images (resized).jpeg

#128 1 year ago

Crazy , shoot yourself in the foot and try to walk 100 miles or don't shoot yourself in the foot and try to walk 100 miles . Choice seems obvious doesn't it , but deeproot chose the gun and shot themselves in both feet and said fuck it we'll crawl the 100 miles but our crawling is way better than others' walking . What a load of crap ,why hire jpop and take on all his bagage . It's insane , plenty of new designers could have been hired and design a better game than jpop.

#129 1 year ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

Well, people love a comeback story. Maybe they're banking on that?

not from braggadocious lawyers .. people fing hate those guys

#130 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Hello,
I have only just seen this on the TWIP site (yes i find out this type of thing second hand it seems on a public website....) , and to say the very least am quite shocked to be honest. I have no idea where they've got the 100k figure from, or why the tone is so aggressive???
I was contracted for over 2 years from August 2012 to August 2014 (if memory serves) but i started in June 2012 and i pulled the plug in May 2014 after being 3 months behind on invoice payments. I had 4 visits to Chicago during that time. My contract had a 2 year gag clause in it which i upheld and I even returned all my prototype assets in return for John paying up on the 3 months left which he never did of course.
This type of blatant lie and random statements is just really bizarre. All i've ever wanted was to be paid up in full for what i did and receive a game. That's it nothing more. I even created the magicgirlcode.org site and helped out owners on my own time with issues as i want this game to be a good one. Feel like i've being kicked in the nackers again.... !!
If it comes to it, then i'll just publish all my invoices with the dates and amounts, as i still have all my audited records!

applejuice Deeproot never bothered to contact you to settle unpaid bills or to hire you for future improvements, and then goes on to spew that shit? What a bunch of Dishonest Losers.

Found a copy of Deeproot's Gameplay Book for Success in Business:

Setup company and name it after what you wanna do to your customers, but knowing that would never fly, decide to translate it into Dutch words - Deeproot. Nobody will figure that one out.

Hire Mega Business Destroyer - JPOP - a man proven to be toxic to anything he touches and put him in charge of designing your first four games.

Bring in staff with no pinball design or relavent manufacturing experience.

Don't pay vendors and suppliers.

Settle matters with art designer. We'll need that when we build our games.

Alienate software designer so that you will now have to find another to update code.

(Maybe illegally?) selling future MG game with software that was never paid for.

Develop plan to help make previous buyers whole, but exclude the most loyal achievers. Ones that got so fed up with John's lies and misdirection and getting a constant runaround, that they organized and sued JPOP's ass. But it is better to bury your head in the sand and wake up in the morning, than to lift your head up now and risk getting it chopped off.

Give public interview to pinball community and potential buyers where you demonstrate your own lack of knowledge and experience making pinballs, which everyone knows is hard!

Wish I was making this stuff up, but unfortunately is reality live.

#131 1 year ago

I think you're confused ... AP - American Pinball never had any responsibility towards MG customers, or JPop's contractors. They were simply the contract manufacturer for Magic Girl. There was talk of restitution for various parties, with JPop completing work on Houdini .. but we know how that worked out - AP quickly dispensed with him and made a completely new design, as JPop had presented them with an unworkable diorama. To the best of my knowledge, they have never threatened anyone.

Deeproot Pinball are being discussed here.

#132 1 year ago

Are the LE's sold out yet?

#133 1 year ago

Some follow up statements/clarifications from deeproot Pinball to the pinball community on This Week in Pinball:

http://thisweekinpinball.com/twip/

#134 1 year ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Some follow up statements/clarifications from deeproot Pinball to the pinball community on This Week in Pinball:
http://thisweekinpinball.com/twip/

Haha yeah a frikkin bet

#135 1 year ago

Cool TWIPY ratings. Can you add weekly results to your TWIP newsletter? I don't think anyone else can see them, so this would be a good way to show a running tally that changes as long as the votes come in. With Survey Monkey, survey could probably stay open through next year. I am already curious to see who's leading each category.

Would love another category added for - most incomplete software.

#136 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Would love another category added for - most incomplete software.

Trying to keep it positive my friend!

I am redoing the TWIPY awards though, and started a thread here for input: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-twipy-awards-2017-pinball-awards-input-needed

#137 1 year ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Some follow up statements/clarifications from deeproot Pinball to the pinball community on This Week in Pinball:
http://thisweekinpinball.com/twip/

I was expecting a correction clarifying that “Pinball is REALLY easy.”

#138 1 year ago

Bankrupt by Christmas

#139 1 year ago

From the ZW DR page:

"Prior to moving forward with John on a formal basis, deeproot Tech wanted to address the elephant in the room: the failure of John and other companies to satisfy Zidware's customers that entered into contracts for Magic Girl ("MG"), Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure ("RAZA", formerly BHZA), Alice in Wonderland ("AIW"), and/or Space Mission X ("SMX")."

It's hard to keep up with every twist and turn of the extended JP soap opera nightmare. Was it already known that some people had contracts to buy (and presumably sent money for) vaporware game #4? I remember the design being mentioned, but not that it had reached the advanced stage John requires before accepting cash from customers.

#140 1 year ago

To help explain the decisions made by DR in a way that will calm all fears they have hired a new PR representative. Mike from Homepin.

#141 1 year ago

The ferrari for kia pricing comment. Do I think pinball could be streamlined (both in development and production) to keep costs down while keeping features up? sure!

Could you design a table virtually, then transfer that over to the real thing (see wrath of olympus)
Could you... spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on robots that pick and place every playfield component and install them to reduce labor cost? absolutely
Could you have every part made in China for 1/3 the price? Sure, but be ready to fly over there and watch them like a hawk

Here's the thing.. Pinball is a VERY small volume product comparable to other industries. Even if you're the king of the industry (Stern) producing about 15,000 machines per year, that's really not a lot of product (especially one that requires game designers/mech engineers/programmers/artists/testers/production fixture engineers to develop two new titles every year). All that development time for 7,500 units. Who would want to do all that up front work and money when they've never designed or built a pinball in their life? The comment "pinball is easy" is very JPOP sounding. Remember early on when he would criticize all the homebrew games (that were finished and had code) about not having the detail to paint their vent grills? Yet his glass had to be custom cut for his custom cabinet, which also barely cleared the shooter rod? June 30th, 2019 can't come soon enough. I don't want to see them fail, but they are going to realize very quickly what they are up against. All I gotta say is they better have someone in charge that pushes for as many off the shelf components as possible.

16
#142 1 year ago

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :

----------------

Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.

----------------

Thank you all

#143 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :
----------------
Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.
----------------
Thank you all

Nice, hopefully it worked out for and all the work you put into it.

#144 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :
----------------
Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.
----------------
Thank you all

right now mr k from NY is going "nooooooo!"

#145 1 year ago

Jim, I'm going to take this as good news on your end. Whatever the deal was, I hope you at least have some closure and can move on and not look back.

-1
#146 1 year ago

money and legalese talks.
both jim and jeremy reaching resolutions.

perhaps this new found money and legal team will enable JPOP to enforce any pinball patents he may have acquired during the past few years. another win for innovation.

#147 1 year ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

money and legalese talks.
both jim and jeremy reaching resolutions.
perhaps this new found money and legal team will enable JPOP to enforce any pinball patents he may have acquired during the past few years. another win for innovation.

It's gonna be a big loss for pinball if nobody else can use that ridiculous Magic Girl cabinet design.

#148 1 year ago

I think the one contentious patent is the "switch near lcd screen" which would apply to P3, as well as things like Ghostbusters hologram and Quantum Theater.

I believe P3 has a compelling "prior art" case, but who knows how these things shake out.

John really seems to loathe being called "the most hated man in pinball" and we'll see how his reputation improves if he starts trying to enforce patents that negatively affect other pinballs.

#149 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :
----------------
Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.
----------------
Thank you all

Congrats applejuice glad you were able to resolve your differences. It didn't make practical or legal sense for Deeproot to continue designing MG, without having the basic software paid up. They'd be better off using your talents for future upgrades too, but at least today, one more supplier has been compensated and a major hurdle vanquished.

#150 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think the one contentious patent is the "switch near lcd screen"

thats the one. and upon researching its approval process, i believe he was denied once or twice, but he continued to reapply/resubmit until it was granted.

Quoted from frolic:

things like Ghostbusters hologram and Quantum Theater.

and just about everything else that involves the future use of OLEDs/LCD/similar in pinball machines.

Quoted from frolic:

if he [John] starts trying to enforce patents that negatively affect other pinballs.

unfortunately, it wont be John who is doing the enforcing.

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