Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Quoted from beergut666:Yep, another one that comes to mind is:
How do you make a small fortune?
Start with a large fortune and invest in a pinball company.
Nice jab when things are down and people’s jobs are at stake. Any other jokes? 
I really don’t think it’s entertaining at all when investors are losing money and people are getting laid off
Pathetic
Quoted from o-din:It's nice when the ordinary peasants can celebrate a moment of glory, isn't it?
Looks like it’s not a victory for the peasants yet! 
Great to see all the jobs and opportunity created along with some hopefully great pins
Here’s hoping DR makes their rich arrogant investors a shit load of $$$!
Quoted from dc2010:What jobs, I've been waiting for job announcements since November when they told me where and when to look, I have it set to notify me, so far ... nothing
There are people currently on the payroll?
Obviously they aren’t making pins yet.
I Guess you will have to have a little patience given the current environment
Quoted from o-din:A real show of good faith would be deeproot delivering gourmet meals to all those whose free trip to the seminar and buffet got cancelled.
I think you should pay for it since you are so concerned troll
Why don’t you mix up a batch of chili and send it out to the needy pinball “peasants”
Quoted from o-din:LTG, I feel far worse for your situation or others like yours than any multimillion dollar company making non essential items, or those expecting a free trip. Or any multimillionaires in general.
Hope you can ride out this storm unscathed.
Go troll some other thread
It’s a Deeproot pinball thread
All the usual downvote crew. No surprise there
Quoted from LTG:One thing for sure. Since the beginning of Deeproot. All the things that were embellished, or didn't happen. The one thing you can't blame them for is the private party they planned.
Invited people. Provided them with air fare and passes to the event. Probably already lined up food and stuff. Etc. Etc.
That event being canceled was out of their control. No one could see that coming. Not fair to any manufacturer, attendees, fans, anyone directly involved. To have the rug pulled out from under them by a virus.
I'm sorry for Deeproot, the people excited about going. And pinball fans, because at some point we may have gotten more news or pictures.
A terrible day for anyone that was excited about the event.
LTG : (
One of the truly good guys. LTG
I don’t get haters that root for failure
Actually I do get it. Not hard to figure out
Keep up the faith Lloyd
Quoted from o-din:It's not hard to root for modest, helpful, and humble guys like LTG at all.
This is a Deeproot pinball thread
Humble Lloyd hopes for the success in everybody. Maybe you should pay attention to what he just said and stop trolling
Can’t even come into a thread about something people like myself have an actual hopeful positive outcome without the usual crap
Quoted from o-din:Day two they show the movie Brokeback Mountain.
You already on the puff Odin?
Quoted from o-din:Free here dude.
But I am considering investing my stimulus money in deeproot
This is a deepmroot thread.
[quoted image]
Lol. Yeah there is still a few slots open I’m sure
Could be the next Stern Pinball? Look how much money those rich dudes have made investing in Pinball
You ought to roll your entire retirement into Deeproot stock!
Even though he’s acted like an arrogant prick at times and brought a lot of this on himself there is some great talent at DR
Quoted from o-din:You know I still love you Ice.
And for some reason I just can't quit you.
love you too brother!
Quoted from Concretehardt:I just listened to K-mans interview, I thought it was good but I take issue with Roberts statement that Deeproot created RAZA from nothing. I was an original RAZA buyer who gave JPOP my hard earned money and received nothing in return. I was in the owners blog for years and watched RAZA develop, there are plenty of things used from the original design that were funded by us JPOP customers and are now being used by Deeproot.
I thought that comment was kind of interesting as well Concrete as you and i both were right there from the actual beginning of RAZA.
Just got a chance to listen to the interview on my way back home from the beach this afternoon and several things in addition to the above comment struck me as a bit strange. 
I'm not sure why you would say you are going to limit RAZA sales to 500/750? This game has been in development for at least 6 years or so? When you say you don't want it to "clog your production" line that sort of baffles me. And that you want to use RAZA to "work the kinks out". It begs the question doesn't it, what exactly is the "production capability" of Deeproot? I don't think it will sell that many btw unless they did it Spooky style.
Limiting RAZA while at the same time having multiple art options and other custom items in the game? I don't get that part either.
I also don't understand the continued fascination with JPOP. Maybe John has also learned from his mistakes but i thought Kaneda had a great question regarding Magic Girl. "What was John thinking re x, y, z.....?" Does he really get it? Or is he leading everybody down the Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole?
It was good to hear they admitted the mistake on the RAZA ramp and fixing it instead of continuing to make excuses for it.
What is objectively clear is that there has been a failure of execution over the past 3 1/2 years. This is an "execution" business that is based on pinball sales, especially missing a sales time frame that was the best pinball has ever seen.
Sometimes going to the "University of Failure" and hard knocks is some of the best schooling ever! I also don't believe you can be successful going in and out of being "passionate" about what you are doing. I'd go back to a Buffet saying, "if you aren't willing to invest in a company for 10 yrs you shouldn't spend 10 minutes in it". News flash, how long has successful Stern pinball been in business? 27 years now, many ups and downs.
It does sound like he has finally gotten the needed "focus" in place on actually creating a pinball machine and getting a "win", with an all hands on deck approach. "Working for minimum wage" and "taking years of my life" is what it takes to build a successful business. Not expecting that going in seems a bit naive?
As for the "coding" approach, i don't get that either, every individual is going to work on every aspect of every game in the production line of coding versus the way Stern does it with "coding teams". I'll be interested to see how that plays out. One bad link in the chain makes them all inferior. I don't believe it's going to work well.
You can have a "Game Plan" all day long, your goals and your wishes, but it always comes down to execution and learning from your mistakes. Sometimes ego and arrogance get in the way of making sound business decisions.
We all live and learn every day. Hopefully the "learn" part sticks. To me Robert is too focused on "having his day in the sun" with some blown out media launch. He also mentioned that "prior to Covid-19, they were on pace to "break the record" of introducing 9-10 games in a given year". I assume he meant 2020. What?......
What exactly is the cadence of these future games? He mentioned we wouldn't see the big time Harry Potter type title until 2021 and that due to complexity wouldn't see Magic Girl or Alice in Wonderland beyond that? That's another major head scratcher to me.
The most difficult time is ahead for them it seems to me. Think about it, Stern has approx. 300 employees and they were up to at least 15k games per year production wise. That is called "execution".
Being able to "scale up" to meet demand, and the ebb and flow thereof, will be the biggest challenge these guys are going to face. Ask JJP.
How many pinball games need to be sold to reach breakeven?
Why did Mattel choose American Pinball over Deeproot with all of the DR resources?
People have already seen RAZA! Get it out there and start shipping it. Then you can do the vanity launch at a later date.
I wish them luck, the long road ahead is just beginning. It's time to execute. Bottom line is you just gotta get it done! GL guys
The stories surrounding John at Bally are well documented. He had a lot of help finishing games he started.
The reason many of us blindly and stupidly threw money at John was because of his “creativity” and artistry which we later found out it was Zombie Yeti that produced the awesome artwork that got us excited.
AND the fact that Jpop is previous inventor and founder of Pinball FOMO! Which Spooky has now taken and perfected
Limited numbers and a reputation blinded us all to the reality
Truth is all we had to do was ask the easy numbers questions on how the F games were gonna ever get built at those prices in that scale WITH proprietary parts!!!
But hey, Deeproot rescued him and gave us a lifeline. I’m thankful for that. And I assume DR needed a name to help promote to investors?
It still doesn’t change the fact that RAZA looks like nothing special and likewise with MG and AIW, which they still can’t make playable.
It’s been a very LONG time since Jpop has had a hand in developing a great game
Quoted from o-din:I had one for a few months, but we all know how they ended up.
https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2436
Hmmm, Game Plan the manufacturer of Super Nova from 1980!
A Deeproot remake?
Man I just don’t get this whole thing with DR and their execution
A week away from the big reveal and now two months later and nothing because they want their “vanity reveal” with people and media
Announce and start selling
As for Jpop, the offer to the community was a chump change drop in the bucket.
Others chose to go down the legal route which is nothing but a winner for the lawyers
Why bring Jpop on board? He needed a name to raise the $35 million or so
Practically speaking, it was a terrible decision
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Hopefully they have been contacted and Deeproot is waiting for all the replies before posting an update July 1.
No contact to me re the agreement and upcoming deadline.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I hope you get contacted within 8 days.
I just hope they can get it together and launch some games soon
Quoted from spoke:I apologize, Robert does deserve credit for making good on his promise to refund jpop victims. Not sure all have been made whole, but, they did write checks to at least some, so, 1/20
That’s fine with other people’s money
At some point it’s time to deliver something
No excuses
I'm sure Robert is not worried about what any of us think about the timeline. He's got to answer to the investors for that.
At this point, i'm sure Covid buys him some more time with those people. They don't realize everybody else is producing pinball machines.
Quoted from littlecammi:Robert knows they still haven't sold any pinball games yet.
I'm sure he's digging deep to get to the root of the problem.
This is looking like a very sad story.
The excuses, missed timelines, etc... Not even ONE game after all this time and money. Hard to believe.
Quoted from toyotaboy:According to the updates, they had a factory in place and were ready to start manufacturing pinball back in late February (ready to show at TPF at the end of March). Yes, they haven't actually fired up production (maybe a small pilot run to vet out the manufacturing setup), but it sounded pretty normal to me. I can't think of a single reason they wouldn't start making machines if it's truly ready. If they think they need to show it at a pinball show, they are wrong. Rick and Morty has NEVER been at a show and it sold out in 4 hours (and there are still people wanting one). TMNT has never been at a pinball show, and lots of people are buying them.
Covid is no excuse here
I thought Robert said he wanted to have his “grand announcement” with media etc.
I agree, just start producing and shipping games. Have the big grand opening next year
"About the575 Investment Fund
the575 Fund by deeproot Funds offers hybrid Preferred Equity Class C Shares, backed by insurance policies and affiliates, with a 5 year term, and choice of 35% lump sum return (i.e. 7% internal simple deferred per annum growth), or 5% annualized periodic (monthly) payments. the575 also features a large account bonus option."
That's the Deeproot575 fund that raised $32 million as of last year September. 7% on a 5 yr. product is a big number in this interest rate environment.
Wondering if any of that $$ went to fund pinball? "backed by insurance policies and affiliates" whatever that means.
How many business ventures are you aware of that can go years with huge overhead expense and zero revenues coming in?
If you had a game ready to build in RAZA and ship, and other companies are finding the parts and building, why not start trying to bring in some revenue? I don't get that but hey, maybe there is a grand master plan.
They showed RAZA back in November at the Houston show.
I too would like to see that AIW! And whatever else they have cooked up.
Quoted from Makakka:That 2nd studio RM shut dowm was a bit dubious I give you that. Maybe just for investors but maybe we see content from that studio in machines.
I don’t think it’s really “for the investors”. The money dried up
The promises made on the 575 Deeproot fund Trump the pinball funding effort from those funds
It became a poor investment for the 575 fund as an “affiliate” is my assumption and no more ability to raise $$$
We will find out in September when the SEC filing is due
No business can operate for years without any revenue.
Put RAZA out and start bringing something in the door, unless there is no money to build it?
Put a f ing game out there with all that $$ spent and the last several years FFS
I’m regretting my decision to forego the Jpop payment now. Yeah that was stupid on my part
Call it for what it is. Absolutely terrible execution thus far
The 575 fund is another story. Good luck with that.
The whole thing is turning into a monster shit show
Quoted from o-din:Definitely too hot out not to put down a few ice cold ones and at least try to relax. And play the games we do have. After all, I may never see a Sledge Hammer! either.
Lol. Amen brother!
Quoted from Makakka:Only lifeline for JPop fans atm (2nd hand btw).
How much will hopes and trust be crushed if this promise is broken by more than a month: Painful blow bc the covid excuse will be used up and there was no need to give that production date.
Does anyone really expect anything at this point?
It will be a bonus in my mind if it happens
For the sake of everybody, employees, investors, etc I hope it happens
The continuous overhead cash burn with nothing coming in isn’t a business model one would have confidence in.....for several years now
You have to wonder what the employees are thinking?
If they can’t start shipping ONE game by September after showing Raza last year and spending all that money to get to here then maybe they ought to pay Spooky or Gerry from Multimorphic to come in and get it done
Quoted from crazypinballguy:Yes, everyone who works there is an individual, but a business isn’t an individual.
Businesses make poor decisions all the time despite the best of intentions of select individuals.
Businesses that continually over-promise and under-deliver will be called out for it... and should be.
Ultimately, consumers choose to buy or not buy products, depending on how much they like/desire/afford the item and trust the manufacturer.
There has to be a product to buy first. Been years now. Terrible execution.
Quoted from frolic:I never made the deal because I didn't think ANYONE would get anything. But we know there were a handful of guys smart enough to take the money and get out.
Your legal advice was bang on .
I took the deal DR because i wanted to support pinball and their efforts to bring more of it to the hobby.
I also decided i had to take some personal responsibility for making a terrible decision in supporting the JPOP follies during those "noodling" years of nothingness.
No matter how it turns out i made the right decision for myself all the way around. I'm still in a great position here barring some sort of bankruptcy filing.
Even still, as poor as the execution has been by the management team at DR, its hard to fathom that you could blow that much money and pinball talent and end up producing nothing for actual sale.
Bottom line, i'll be made whole, along with others, via that contract signed with DR, in September, one way or the other.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I rather see you get machine(s) that you are owed, as I am wanting to support a new Texas pinball company with a NIB purchase.
Totally agree brother. Been saying that all along. They have some great talent
Quoted from okgrak:Has anyone in the San Antonio area decided to drive by Deeproot HQ and see if there is any sign of life there? Does it look like a facility staffed and prepping to assemble products filled with 250lbs of parts? Are there five cars in the parking lot and not much else?
Will take a ride over there during the week sometime. Zero cars on weekend last weekend
They still have multiple job postings on Glassdoor. Look it up. Maybe old and outdated?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:What happens to that contract if DR is dissolved?
Poof. Gone
Not sure but that 575 fund that supports the “affiliates” is a much bigger issue
Funny that Robert wasted time and money on handing out worthless “cease and desist” letters like candy
If he doesn’t deliver this time he’ll be facing Breach of Contract claims. Not worthless
Jpop is still noodling and doodling years later on his road to nowhere.
That said, I'll take a box of anything to satisfy my contract with DR.
As for what else is coming?....All of the designers, coders, sound guys have to have been doing something for the past few years?
I don't believe they are that bad. Can't possibly be. Who needs to look in the mirror of this shitshow? That's obvious isn't it.
Quoted from LTG:I hope so. So people owed games get something eventually.
LTG : )
No doubt Lloyd. All the people that work there and the investor $$ spent
Gotta hope it all works out for them
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Why can't Elon Musk make pinballs??
I would by an awesome SpaceX machine.
Because Elon Musk is smart?
Quoted from KerryImming:Given the amount of money Zidware collected I don't think anyone would have predicted the catastrophic fail that occurred. Delays yes, but complete failure? That said, when John showed up at Expo with empty cabinets and the best he could do was to tout the great advance that was painted vent covers... well, that was a BIG red flag.
That was the beginning of the end
The wheels fell off right after that expo
I only went down $4950
Could have been a lot more
Arrogance just destroys. Jpop should have asked for help much earlier
Instead, he kept taking money on that ponzi like effort
The ramp was a disaster based on what i witnessed. And the many people that played it gave the feedback to DR.
Originally, DR tried to say the ramp was "intentionally difficult". The reality is that it was terrible and DR had to make the adjustments.
Based on watching streams and the people that played it and their input. There you go.
Quoted from Makakka:Let´s keep it reasonable. A desaster would be If it was undoable. It was doable + when you dont make it you drop down half-way.
I quote the guy from the Imoto-video: "On a new pin all I care about are the shots and the shots are great." In that video you see him making the ramp he is an advanced player.The ramp was intentionally difficult thats why can drop down half way. I dont see them changing anything physical on that ramp and that is good.
Well, he said they had already made changes based on the feedback so that is a good thing.
If it doesn't shoot better i'll pass on that one for the next one.
The layout doesn't look that good to begin with after all these years.
JP and Elvira are two of the best games ever released. STH is great too.
I'd say Stern is crushing it. Avengers looks like another Elwin home run.
IF DR can even come close to what Stern is putting out then they will have success.
Competition is a good thing.
To deny what Stern is accomplishing right now just means you aren't paying any attention!!
Quoted from Roostking:If they would get the QA under control, they would really be killing it.
They already are killing it Roost
Great games. Avengers is next and blowing it out
JJP quality? How is DR gonna compete on quality with their Jake leg assembly team?
Reality is hard
Quoted from wesman:Stern games are exceptionally adequate and functional games.
They are the definition of a $7.99 pizza from a big box national chain. I don't get excited at all about their product and subsequent timely releases, but man are they dependable!
Case in point. I'd jump on an Avengers Pro for $4500, but wouldn't all the same be super excited to spend that. I also feel the "extras" they have for this game should without a doubt be included on the LE, and should be priced at 6/7K, for me anyway.
That’s like saying I’d trade for Michael Jordan for a pizza and bag of chips
You won’t be jumping on anything pro related at that price until you are MUCH older Wes
Get into the real world of today
Quoted from razorsedge:So, you seen the fantastic Elvira Topper then?
LOL, you've been pumping DR for years. Get your $$ ready.
You haven't seen that "fantastic Elvira topper" either.
Whatever it does it will go on a FANTASTIC game. 
Quoted from NeilMcRae:I want to send Mr Franchi's excellent quote in!
[quoted image]
at least if the game is shit you and your buddies can play shmash-the-playfield
Shipping now!
Lol, yeah Neil i swear that is the last thing i'll go to my grave worried about it how many dimples my PF's have!
I only wish i could live long enough in a HUO environment to actually wear out one of my PF's by playing it so much.
Quoted from adol75:Covid recovery ? My kids are still doing school in front of a computer, and I'm still not in my office !
Ps : Robert and Jpop destroyed their reveal all by themselves, this time that poor virus had nothing to do with it
This is San Antonio, not San Francisco.
The virus is no excuse.
And they received two PPP loans it appears.
The original delivery date was June 30th 2019 per the Goodwill agreement
Then we signed an amendment through June 30th 2020.
Covid hit and DR basically extended again through sept 30, unilaterally, due to “act of god” basically
Games have got to be ready to go on Sept 21st.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:What difference does it make that it’s San Antonio? Is TX operating business as usual right now ?
What difference? It’s not fully back to “as usual” but it’s almost
And NOTHING like New York City or California.
Covid in simply not an excuse here. Stern, AP, Spooky all producing games
DR has had the designer talent to make great pinball machines.
Setting aside code, animations and sound, do they have the ability and money to manufacture enough pins effectively and efficiently?
When they announce a game clearly you gotta keep the line moving. Can’t JJP it.
David Thiel is a huge asset. They need to have the sound as good as Alien, best audio by far of any pin.
Management matters
Quoted from mbeardsley:I suspect at this point if they could ship half the games that Stern does (in units OR titles), they'd take that as a big win.
That would be 9,000 pins roughly. They are a LONG, LONG ways away from that.
Quoted from Raincity:I'm starting a Kickstarter for the Ishtar pin.
St. Elmo's Fire? 
lol
Quoted from Fulltilt:All fine by me. Send me the tracking.
Hey you and me both, except i live here, just let me know what day to pick it up next week?
Quoted from nwpinball:Pinball and politics... although I do think Deep Root has a lot of talent and John does great pinball artwork, even with all his faults.
Excellent talent. Poor management
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Order it now for $5k delivered would scratch my sweet spot
Zero chance
I’d like to get LeBron James on my team for $100
Quoted from frolic:Odd to me that the original debut had a full and clear itinerary and tomorrow we don't even know what time the info will drop, what will drop or through what means.
Yeah, not odd to me
The “Pinball media” have come and gone
Another waste of money
Just show the game again, RAZA and better be ready to box it and sell it
Years of noodling and doodling...again
How can Spooky literally kick their ass for years with their limited funding, talent and assets? Not to mention Stern, JJP, AP and everybody else
Email messages unreturned this far although I’m sure the media party was wild! Lol
Quoted from Makakka:deeproot Tech Zidware Webinar:
"Questions
Is John Popadiuk working on the games (MG, RAZA, AIW)?
Yes with colaborative help from the deeproot team."
Yes!
Yeah that question was answered three years ago
It would be really nice to have another pinball company in the marketplace
Quoted from Makakka:Result tomorrow.
But just Raza. Didn’t we see it last November?
Yeah, it’s showtime. Let’s see it
Quoted from Makakka:Didnt hear that but regardless the combo JPOP/Zombie Yeti was magic only that combo pulled in all the zidware money mostly btw Yeti art alone. Without great art that matches JPOPS design my interest is 0. There is Yeti art on RAZA AIW and MG (and Kiss but that doesnt matter) that is about 70% of the JPOP magic I dont see any artist filling that gap besides maybe Brian Allen who did the Alien backglass.
Thats why tomorrow is so special a lost world will resurface the JPOP/Yeti combo in final form. That WILL happen tomorrow + lots of coverage from the media already there. The odds are quite high deeproot has production ready to go for at least 10 tables per weeks as the original plan was to have it ready 2018, 2019 and March 2020 enough hits and the resistance is broken.
ZERO chance they have 10 titles ready for production but I like your optimism
They barely have one ready
Remember, a BIG reason Raza, MG and AIW sold was due to the limited nature and “collectibility” of the games
They are in a tough spot if they make the same mistakes JJP keeps making
You can’t have 500 CEs and unlimited “limited editions”
They learn from Stern and even Spooky
It’s called FOMO
Quoted from phalcon_2600:Here is some info I saw on FB today about today’s Deeproot launch.[quoted image]
Now we see why they didn't do this reveal real time. Editing out the "professional video" and no Q&A works better.
On the plus side.
-Wrap around backbox art is at least different and could be cool. Speakers on the sides of the box?
-The artwork on RAZA will look 100x better than it did at Houston.
-Extra wide LCD screen
-Looks like they got the 3 tiered pricing model correct to max out whatever sales they will drive
-ONE "licensed theme" that could be a big one
On the negative side.
-It's just RAZA to show, no other final prototypes
- 7 "non licensed themes", wouldn't think that works out well
-They ordered the wrong ramps for RAZA, frosted ones. Wtf
-Thus, they can't announce and have pins ready for sale. Wtf
-They apparently have no real manufacturing line? Isn't that a BIG Wtf?
What does this mean? Like Spooky, I predict they will have to ask for DEPOSITS on games in order to get anything built.
I'm looking forward to seeing what's actually behind the curtain!
I’m sure Robert is laughing his ass off right now. Thinks it’s funny
Put on a show for the “pinball media”, which does ZERO for you other than waste money
While ignoring the people that actually might buy the games from you
Bravo
LOL
Quoted from La4s:No where did deeproot ever post that they were going to stream, especially on a random channel called "Stuff Your Mom Hates". When Stern announces a stream, they do it in tandem with Dead Flip.
It is on you for being fooled, and then being upset about it.
That’s the f ing point. Address your potential customers with some f ing clarity
Quoted from MapleSyrup:deeproot making no announcements today will disappoint almost nobody. There are a HANDFUL of hardcore pinball nerds (Myself included) who are eager to hear this news... The Other 7.8 Billion people on the planet DO NOT CARE.
"You're wasting my time"??!! Dude, we're on a Pinball Forum. We're wasting our own time!! We don't need deeproot's help!
Bottom line is, the "Magic" IS production. It's just smoke and mirrors until they're coming off the line.
I here ya, thrilled about Avengers coming in next week or so
And GNR being announced early Oct
There are some of us that need to be here to find out IF and WHEN DR will be following through on their contractual Zidware commitments
I’ve received no replies from my emails as of yet
Quoted from Goronic:There are a few exceptions...and this is one IMO
Ditto that
Quoted from brucipher:How does this effect the people who signed the goodwill agreement? Weren't they owed something this month?
You notice how this part wasn’t addressed right?
They just solidified the breach of contract claim if it’s even worth the f ing effort
Why wait almost a FULL YEAR to bring in some media beta testers!!!
Just more excuses and incompetence.
I live right here and buy a shit load of games.
I could have told them what they needed to know months ago
Just f ing amazing
Quoted from frolic:Like WHAT IN THE HELL was going to happen back in March when they were paying for everyone to come see this thing, that isn't ready 6 months later?
Covid sent DR into total regression.
They actually went backwards
Sounds like they built a nice auditorium though
“Due to technical issues and lots of feedback from our Guests, it ended up being more of a beta event. We are grateful and thankful to Lauren, Cary, Colin, Jeff, Chris, and Krystle for their invaluable feedback and involvement in refining our platform to be the best it can be.”
Somebody else had to have hijacked their account and sent that letter as a joke?
It’s not even remotely possible that DR penned that letter if you think about how ridiculous it all sounds
I think we are being punked and the real reveal is happening later today
Quoted from NeilMcRae:at Expo one of the designers at deeproot predicted this would happen. He'd had a few beers and was basically saying that having designers is a waste of time at Deeproot as they can't build shit.
Bingo Neil, sounds like a warehouse full of Jpop noodlers
Frosted ramps and a PowerPoint. Lordy have mercy
Where has the management intervention been since last November? Wtf
Quoted from NeilMcRae:I suspect Colin would have given very useful constructive feedback.
I promise you I would have. A year ago
Involved in JPop from day one and right in their backyard
They would rather bring in 6 people a year later to embarrass them?
Holy lack of self awareness Batman!
Quoted from frolic:This is like when jpop showed up with the empty cabinets at expo 2014 and wondered what everyone's problem was.
There was a FREAKING COUNTDOWN for weeks counting down to this day, and they didn't know what they had was a problem?
Seems like yesterday at that Expo Frolic!
Was it 2014 or 2015? Same year as TBL launch and Hobbit tank job and delay.
6 years later and Jpop’s Raza is still sitting in the toilet. It’s cursed!!!
Can somebody call Spooky for these guys? F ing call somebody
Quoted from NeilMcRae:coupled with arrogance - never a good combination.
Trying to be positive. It's so much of a shitshow, at least they didn't try and palm bullshit off on us and carry on selling boxes of turd.
Neil.
I’ve tried to be positive too. At least people have had jobs for several years, doing what I don’t know
I mistakenly didn’t take the initial cash out offer trying to support pinball and DR
I’ll get a game one way or another, or at least pieces of one
I might even settle for some frosted ramps
They spent way too much time sending out cease and desist orders and crafting up NDAs versus actually making games
Pathetic. After all this, hard to have any sympathy
Quoted from Robotoes:I dunno, maybe I wasn't supposed to see them?! God it's awful. Mueller getting near top billing on the BG reallllly takes the cake!
“Directed by MUELLER”. I guess so
Quoted from frolic:I just want to say... I freaking love this hobby. How many of these threads have we gotten over the years. Never gets old.
I was just gonna say, where else can you get this kind of entertainment despite the money we lost
Comedy gold
Quoted from boo32:Check out the movie style credits at the bottom of the translite
"Directed by MUELLER", top billing. At least he's taking ownership of it!
Quoted from teekee:Pretty unique pin and if it turns out to be a nice playing machine and priced fairly all you gals talking smack now will want one. Just the usual Pinside haters. Once Bob said what he said and hurt some feelings here he was never gonna win with some of you.
Ok girls now get back to your hate and tough talk! I’m sure Bob is shaking in his boots!
Yeah Bob has a bit more to be worried about than what we think
Bob needs to account for this business to others
Shaking in his boots? Lol
Sorry Teekee, flipper days ala DR aren’t returning
TWIP interview in Sept 2017:
On Plans to For Zidware Customers to be “Made Whole”
Given John Popadiuk’s inexcusable past mistakes, the first issue discussed was his Zidware customers. John does not have money to refund Zidware customers or the means to build the Zidware machines, so any form of restitution would have to come with the help of an outside source (like Deeproot). Robert indicated that Deeproot is aware that in order to work with JPop, they would have to take care of “each and every” Zidware customer. Robert assured that this “comes first” and is the first priority. No specifics were discussed, however, they plan to have multiple options to make sure Zidware customers are made whole.
And here we are today with a Goodwill Agreement that has currently been in breach of contract. Hopefully, DR can remedy that asap.
On the Future of Deeproot Pinball TWIP
On the Deeproot Pinball website is the following quote: “Every family needs a Pinball…every Pinball needs a family.” Deeproot is planning to manufacture machines “different from anyone else” in a way that will make it easier for more machines to make it into more homes. The machines will be more focused on families than hardcore pinball enthusiasts.
His words. There's your answer, the game is being rolled out to "families" and not us hardcore pinball enthusiasts.
Quoted from CLEllison:I was so distraught over the news I went and bought a new hand gun. Life is great again. Thanks DR I needed an excuse to do it. lol
LMAO
Quoted from frolic:When I looked them up on the bailout lists I found them listed twice under two deeproot entities.
You posted a while back that Deeproot Tech, LLC and Deeproot Media, LLC received between $350k to $1 mill each, from two different banks.
Approved back on May 8th and May 13th i think.
Quoted from benheck:Dear rich people:
JPOP IS A LAZY HACK FRAUD.
At what point will you realize this?
Signed, Anyone who's known him.
Well, it is amazing how gullible a lot of us all were.
Back then we wanted to believe and didn't know what we didn't know. It was staring us in the face and we ignored it.
Clue #1, I believe the original MG number was 11 or 13? Should have right away figured how the heck are you going to make 13 games by ordering parts for ONLY 13 games, cost effectively, and then WHO was going to assemble them.
Clue #2, As to the question of WHO was going to assemble them when RAZA came along in 2012 and i got involved there were 99 units and some additional "Cointaker units" to get the total to 125.
And of course, the WHO part included Ben Heck and John coming to your house to help assemble the DIY version.
Why the F didn't that raise a major red flag at the time! Doesn't it sound a bit ridiculous?
Clue #3, Fast forward to Expo 2014 i think it was or 2015, same one as the TBL launch and Hobbit artwork reveal disaster. And of course John bringing in the famous RAZA cab with those fancy lightening bolt hinges. It was just a freaking cab and while TBL was a scam then at least they actually had a flipping pin.
Clue #4, On a phone call with John he talked about having to raise the total of MG to about 50 because "it wasn't feasible to do a run in a lower amount". This was right before EXPO.
He was about to hit the jackpot on more MG $$ and AIW deposits. He kept taking deposits knowing full well he would NEVER deliver or assemble a game himself.
Then me, Frolic and some others started to finally question him and break him down.
Our buddy Billy B. came forward that summer with Pintasia to try and save the day. Thankfully i was overseas and didn't participate. Sorry about that Billy!
Davhal and AP resurrected John with some half ass barely playable MG units.
2017 DR steps in to save Jpop again, for some reason, and does the whole Goodwill Agreement deal with all of us.
It's been argued before, wtf was Bob thinking?
What a journey it's been and a trip down memory lane. Why does it all seem like yesterday? 8 years of this.
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:Who the F is going to buy a Food Truck themed pinball?
Really? Are we being punked?
Overall it looks cool, some nice new innovations
A lot of reinventing the wheel that was not really needed/wanted
- but nothing that will push be to buy a game if the gameplay/theme is not there
Theme doesn’t matter? Hasn’t that been already settled
I’m my mind it has. It’s Number 1
Seems like they are trying to fight the facts to me
Quoted from tilted81:Why’s everybody hating on food truck? Same thing as Diner.
Would you pay $8k for a new Diner?
I can't believe the amount of people apologizing for such a stupid theme!
I can't imagine more than a handful of people buying a theme like that.
You guys know it. "Take my money for Food truck! I'm not getting Avengers, GNR, Toy Story, James Bond or any other game because Food truck kick ass"
Ain't gonna happen.
Can you imagine if a successful company like Stern announced a "food truck" game? LOL
How do you even buy parts for the limited amount of games they might sell?
Whatever, I'm all for MORE pinball, let's see how this one plays out.
Quoted from NeilMcRae:did they have a manufacturing line?
That's not in the allowed "talking points" Neil. Not a peep.
We are back into total fantasy land here again. Look at this, look at that, now how do they actually get made, in any volume.
I'm sure Bob has threatened these guys if they go outside the NDA. Well, we know that he has.
The NDA is as worthless as the paper it's written on. While i would try and comply out of courtesy, the DAMAGES as a result of any violation would be ZERO. Any damages are SELF INFLICTED.
Does Stern do original titles? No? Why?
How about Spooky? Not after their first title. TNA was Danesi and then came Rick & Morty. Btw, Hot Wheels is ranked at 35 while TNA sits at 45.
How about JJP? No more after Dialed In. Why? No matter how great some think it is it didn't sell because of the theme.
How about AP? Nope.
P3? Gerry is turning the corner with Heist and I'm gonna get one probably. All he needs is a great "licensed" theme next.
So Deeproot has cracked the code on original themes now? Ok
Quoted from tilted81:People said the EXACT same thing for Dialed in.
Food truck is a better theme imo.
I'll give you that. Dialed In didn't sell well and the secondary market is terrible on that game because of the theme.
Popeye>Food truck > Dialed In as a THEME. LOL
With all of these titles on the "drawing board" how many games a year do they expect to produce let's say in 2021?
It takes 300 employees at Stern to crank out about 18,000 pins.
Is this gonna be a Spooky level production? 750 games every 18 months?
AP? JJP?
Where is the assembly line? How many employees?
No answers to common sense questions.
Quoted from Mr68:The word Shill implies something sinister and I find that wholly unfair to Cary Hardy and Jeff at TWIP. I've been following them both for a long time and that is not my sense at all.
I think it's just more of an inability to provide FULL DISCLOSURE Kim.
It's not their fault based on how Bob conducts himself.
Quoted from dr_nybble:There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
I got a much better impression from the videos than the stills. I'm more interested in cool playfield mechs and great playing games than the cabinet tech.
Hey i just wanted to chime in and give an update on my conversation with Bob's lawyer.
I had asked him what about the Goodwill Agreement in an email and he took that as "me escalating this to a legal matter, call my lawyer", and basically don't ever call me again.
Well as you might imagine that didn't sit very well with me. 
. As such, i was able out all my issues and am content at this point.
Bottom line, they are working on the Goodwill Agreement terms without over promising anything this time so they want to try and get it right. So there you go for those that are interested and i happen to agree with that sentiment!
I relayed to his attorney that they need to stop with the defensive, snarky, litigious attitude.
And focus on getting a game out versus who leaked what under some NDA. It's irrelevant to the task at hand!!!
In the spirit of focusing on getting a game out, I'm hoping they de escalate the legal nonsense that will go nowhere from here on out.
People are gonna make positive comments and negative ones, don't take it personal! Despite being under extreme pressure.
The guy above said what i told the lawyer, "the only worse thing about being talked about in a negative way is NOT being talked about at all". That is when we as a community don't give a shit anymore about you.
At the end of the day, pinball people are "fickle" as hell. Put out a great game and they will line up to buy it no matter what happened before. Especially if you handle things the right way.
Hopefully it's onward and upward and the merits of what gets released speaks for itself. As i've said before, we should all be rooting for success as jobs and livelihoods are stake.
But just like Stern or any other manufacturer, let em have both the good and the bad!
Quoted from Yelobird:I think you honestly hit it on the head here! In 11,400 posts not a Single person posting has actually Played this game, Tried any of these changes, or even Seen this game in person. Yet, it Must be bad, not work, and be wrong for pinball? Not saying Everything will be great but it seems a Bit premature to call this a fail based on Nothing other then its Not what we have had.
That’s the point isn’t it? We can’t play the game.
It has MANY storylines and a ton of history.
For any company to survive there has to be revenue
And if you think Pinside isn’t going to weigh in good and bad then you haven’t been paying attention. And I know you have
You tell me how production is going to happen?
What if they sell 5,000 units at the outset? Which should be a minimum goal right?
It’s not like “hey dudes, let’s throw some shit at the wall and hope we sell a few games and then like we will grab some beers and pizza and knock it out!”
I’m not waiting 18 months for a game like Spooky. Need to announce and ship
I know there is a plan and goals. Focus on that and not making it harder on yourself
Now onto manufacturing..
As if that’s the easy part Wes
I see the games. Tell me when I’m getting a game in my house after I put an order down? What’s the pricing structure?
It can’t be like JJP where 4 or 5 Stern games come in between
Seems like much of the jibber jabber doesn’t mean anything until we know basic important stuff like that
It’s pinball so it’s exciting times and there are things in there that can move the needle forward hopefully.
One of the things I had hoped we would see is the animations on the glass itself like certain slot machine technology.
That will be very cool when it happens
That’s kind of what P3 has done with the pf itself and motion sensor which is even more difficult I would think
Quoted from yancy:It's a manufacturing business, period, full stop. If you aren't manufacturing pins, you don't even have a business. Design is just one department that feeds the assembly line, like human resources, procurement, accounting, etc. Sure, design is the part that excites us, but it's not a business. It's just an expense.
The. Line. Is. Everything. And I haven't seen any evidence that deerpoot has one.
Period. End of story.
Stern feeds 300 employees with that line.
That game plan should come first.
It’s not bashing. It’s reality
Quoted from PtownPin:My hope is that these guys start pumping out great games with all the new features and technology. For the life of me I can't see any reason to bash these guys. So one employee has a failed venture...shit happens....get over it. If anything they could push other manufacturers to do better....i.e Stern and their shitty play fields.
We ALL want them to be successful!
Hope is NOT a thing. It’s show me time
Stern and “shitty pf’s”?
You can take that hammer test and shove it
I love my FUN Stern pins. I’ve bought 4 or 5 in the past 2 years
TMNT is the only one that didn’t make the cut
Why? Don’t like the theme OR Dwight’s code since MunstersLE
Sorry but past performance has consequences for me
Quoted from ronaldvg:Ok can anyone please explain me why ALL the so called experts, legends, pinball veterans, pinball wizards that work all day every day at Deeproot could not figure out that they had to delay the launch because the machine was just not good and that a few invited people, mostly press and hobby, do in a matter of hours ?
That says something about all those industry guru's to me. Also the fact that all those years of experience do not lead a good result, even after all this tiome they have got extra with all the delays. Something is very off there at DR.
I have heared literally no one talk about how the game plays. Only stuff about extra's that we are actually not waiting for like a crate that is an option none the less with your purchase. Sorry but this whole thing just makes me LOL.
Anybody remember that no one liked Dialed In because it was about a phone ? Now the phone is right in front of you. If I want to play an arcade game, I will start my arcade machine. They promised mechs that would do unimaginable stuff. RM talked about dozens of new toys that would interact with the ball and now they show this with a non working machine? Just wow.
Because it's just the crazy world of pinball. Nobody asks the common sense logical business questions.
It's how a Jpop happens, and dummies like me fall for it. Live and learn and know what to expect now.
What are your production capabilities? I don't want to order a game and get it 18 months later or even JJP style.
Bottom line, these aren't "industry gurus", they are mostly artists and creative guys.
They don't have a Gomez running operations.
Look at how Jack struggled for years at JJP.
That's the one thing i'd have to say. It has taken almost 10 yrs with JJP and they still can't get the production and marketing correct.
Quoted from benheck:That's possible. I'd also agree it feels like a pitch deck.
The suspicious thing is each designer has like what, at least 3 games? How does that work? Again, could be multiple concepts and they wanna see what sticks (BTW they all suck just do Goonies)
Just do the wise move of Goonies ASAP ?
Maybe they want to die on the original theme sword first? To prove it can be done and learn the hard way?
You said it, the other concepts suck
Except maybe Merlin?
Quoted from Mr68:Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.
LOL. When you do a "reveal" that is the entire point. It's to DISCLOSE shit Kim! Should be obvious right?
I said my peace to them, i hope they get OFF the worthless NDA threats and get busy putting out a game.
When you are bleeding $$$ out the ass end i would focus on putting games in those new purty boxes and shipping them.
Perfection is the enemy of really good.
What they should have done/do is just ship game number 1, RAZA, in a basic form and THEN on future titles start implementing all the different features like Pinbar and this and that.
People like myself will simply BUY a fun pinball machine and RAZA looks like it could be good if they fixed the ramp shots.
It's as good as an "original theme" you are going to get.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Nobody except perhaps a very savvy and successful business owner looking for a way to avoid paying taxes from his other ventures
Here's my two cents on this one.
I tell my clients I want for us to pay as MUCH tax as we possibly can, taking into account all of the available deductions, because that means we MADE A LOT OF $$.
That does NOT mean we go around trying to LOSE $$$ offset big gains we might have elsewhere.
There is NOTHING about "saavy and successful business owner" that tries to generate LOSSES for tax purposes.
Not every investment is a WINNER, that's when you cull your LOSERS out and do some tax harvesting to offset those gains.
I promise you these guys are trying to be successful and make $$. And i hope they do!!
Quoted from frolic:I had posted this in the other thread:
oh boy.
One of my biggest take-aways from the whole jpop story, and what I've learned after handing money over to that numbskull, was to never go against my own business instincts again. If it doesn't add up, it doesn't add up. There is nothing magical about pinball that breaks all the laws of business and profit.
So if whatever you have to share about deeproot is going to make people angry, that is not how you launch a business, especially in a niche market with limited customer base. So this is DOA, and someone else now is going to lose a bunch of money chasing a pipe dream.
Page 1.
Total Offering Amount $35,000,000 USD
or Indefinite
Total Amount Sold $32,190,186 USD
Total Remaining to be Sold $2,809,814 USD
This is from the PUBLIC SEC filing for the 575 fund as of 9-12-2019
It appears they added another offering of $37.5 million as of that filing date
Should be an updated filing for 2020 coming soon.
It says the "hybrid preferred equity Class C shares are backed by insurance policies and affiliates"
No idea but i'm speculating Deeproot Pinball would be an "affiliate", along with Deeproot Tech and Deeproot Studios?
An impressive money raise for that 575 product.
It's also possible that NONE of that money went to fund any of those other ventures, including pinball. Although that's not what i heard.
Bob’s words himself back in the TWIP interview that Frolic references in late 2018
“TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term.”
How do you define “short term” almost 2 years later?
Cash burn with no revenues for years is tough to take.
Let’s hope they get games in the box ASAP.
Quoted from DCFAN:How can they state 5% income/payment and continue that if they are losing money? Would that be a form of a Ponzi? If not, then at what point does it become a Ponzi if it does not appear to be likely to ever be profitable?
[quoted image]
Exact language.
"The575 invests in several asset classes. Safe institutional life policies are the primary underlying asset, along with secondary allocations in other assets.
Please refer to the PPM for all term, risks, and guarantees."
$750k per month from somewhere.
DR studios I hear is just a part time shell
Anyhow, all that doesn't matter to us, just start selling games! Everything else could take of itself.
Like I said, complete and utter waste of time and money to send those people down here
A bigger waste to have a professional film crew there. For what?
Total lack of awareness. I would have told em the same thing for a bag of Bill Miller breakfast tacos any day over the previous year.
Cary confirmed it again by saying absolutely nothing. Didn’t even say which Mexican food restaurant they ate at.
What color was the carpet? Lol
Quoted from Yelobird:Why is it so hard to believe that these individuals are respectfully following a known and agreed upon Non Disclosure Agreement? Its a business and they have every right to withhold anything they don't wish to share. I have signed hundreds of these and Always respect the business wishes of discretion as I Agreed on entry. May not be what We want but it is what They agreed to. Not that amazing really?
I think they showed up not knowing what they were going to have to sign, the contents of what it meant, and certainly had no idea the professional film crew was going to be in full force
The point is that you don’t do a “reveal” of a new pinball machine after all these years and contort yourself under NDAs
It’s a DISCLOSURE event. Not that amazing really?
Quoted from PismoArcade:Had to Google this. Damn, they look good!
Totally agree that Deeproot is in uncharted waters of incompetence, even for them. Who would have thought J-Pop didn't know what he was doing? (Well, besides Pintasia, American Pinball, Zombi Yeti, Zidware customers, the entire pinball industry, etc....)
[quoted image]
So good, best picante sauce ever there in the pic!
Quoted from Jvspin:This so reminds me of the JPOP days when people would tour his facility and report back with how promising things looked and all the cool stuff that was in the works. Hoping for a much better outcome this time.
Had we had an inkling of how difficult "production" was back then Jpop would have never have gotten off the ground with Magic Girl and then RAZA.
The obvious questions were staring us right in the face and we looked right past the common sense realities. Until that Expo when he showed up with the embarassing box of nothing. The beginning of the end.
How do you compete with
From Stern
Iron Maiden
Jurassic Park
Elvira
Stranger Things
Avengers
JJP
Gun & Roses this week
Toy Story
Spooky
Rick & Morty
American Pinball
Hot Wheels
CGC
Attack From Mars
Medieval Madness
Monster Bash
Cactus Canyon
Bottom line, you can’t, unless you make a FUN game
All the “innovation” in the world isn’t gonna save a Food Truck game
Or RAZA
The ONLY reason we bought RAZA initially was because it was LIMITED while people thought JPOP had a clue
Now, nobody cares, because there are so many other great games to play and buy
Bottom line, end of story
Terrible execution on their part
Quoted from frolic:They're going back to the drawing board. This might take a while.[quoted image]
Now that is some funny Tuckey shit
Odiner you came back just in time from being locked away in your bunker
DR is gonna schedule you to come to SA to be another media/social influencer
Tacos, guacamole, and queso. All you can eat
Quoted from o-din:Yeah, I'd like to see where the inspiration for Food Truck came from. And that might be their most relevant and interesting theme of all the ones listed so far.
Lol
Food trucks are big here. BBQ and tacos
Prob a Jpop game. Never saw such a thing before he got down here to South Texas
Me, you, Ben and Frolic on the next media reveal. What do you think?
Quoted from o-din:LOL. The high point of shit boxes that leaked out of every gasket and orifice and hit the junkyard when the warrantees expired. And computer carbs that with one glitch made emissions 10X worse than those without. And we don't even have the road salt here that ate them up prior to that.
I did however buy a quality fridge in the mid 80s that lasted until a few years ago. That's my nostalgia from the 80s. A quality fridge that kept my beer and food cold for 25 years.
The pinbar would be better used as a chips, dip and hot sauce tray
The front speakers should be replaced with a real beer/alcohol dispenser
Put a mini keg in there with a tube line
Now that would be some innovation!
Quoted from noitbe1:The timing is not good for sure...
we want just to see a pinball experience not the operator friendly’s pinbar cr...
focusing on 2 buttons during gameplay is more than enough. The real deal is what’s happening on the PF. and not reinventing the wheele.
Might be too late to learn that lesson. I feel bad for those guys, I really do.
Quoted from noitbe1:What happened with the due pinball to the Zidware customers who were supposed to get a pinball in September? Is there a NDA as well? I haven’t seen any infos. Are you guys get a refund? What’s going on.
Nothing has happened yet other than a breach of contract on DRs part
I sent an email asking for setting up my official factory tour per the Goodwill Agreement and Bob responded that I was “escalating it to a legal matter and to never contact him, his company or employees ever again”. Lol
And then I called his attorney the next day and explained how things were gonna go
Thin skinned Bob as usual overreacted
Now we will see what happens re the breach of contract claim
It’s such a pitiful situation I’m currently waiting to see how they remedy the breach
I just received my AIQLE and ordered the GNR CE so I’m in the don’t care camp right now
An NDA? What a joke that is
Quoted from Tranquilize:Did Robert really respond this way?? Is there some sort of context for him to behave this way?
Have the email to prove it.
They thought I was being “snippy”
Well I really just wanted to get a response re the clause in the contract that allows us to go tour the facility and play the game
I was denied earlier in the year. Have those emails as well
As for context I’ve been nothing but supportive in my communication with them
The lawyer def heard what I had to say.
Bob took it the wrong way but I don’t really care.
I told the lawyer I might have a big pinball party at my house and invite whatever employees I felt like
Look I want them to succeed but it’s harder to root for them they act like that
If you want to make threats I’ll hit back 10x harder
Quoted from noitbe1:At least you’re not scared of them! You’re probably the only one who can freely talk with the NDA which scared everyone...
You’re the only one who give real news from them at the end.. ha ha.
I live here so stay tuned.
Scared of what and who? It’s ridiculous
It’s that attitude of worrying about NDAs instead of getting games done that has them in the position they are in
I’m def not putting up with that BS from them
Quoted from Mr68:I recently used the search feature in this thread using the term "Goodwill" to see how many people accepted the cash payout. I found only two people.
And having followed this thread its my strong sense the majority of people opted for the game(s).
I limited my time in doing this search and maybe someone else could double check me.
The reason I accepted the agreement Kim was to support pinball and they were local
Whatever happens I’m cool with it
Their first reaction is to hit you when they feel threatened. That’s not gonna fly with me. Especially when it’s so misguided
Live up to YOUR agreements and no problems
Put some games out, quit blaming everybody and everything else and things will work out
Quoted from Roostking:No good deed goes unpunished...
Bingo
Quoted from Capn12:If they spent HALF as much time, building a manufacturing line, as they did threatening litigation, we'd have all sorts of games out there by DR.
Exactly what I told my lawyer buddy
And I said when people stop complaining and posting, that’s when you better really start worrying. Because nobody cares
Quoted from Mr68:I wasn't being critical, Doug. I was simply responding to Arcademojo's comment.
Fact is, if I wasn't involved with the Jpop lawsuit, I would have done the very same as you and the others.
No doubt Kim
Been a long journey for all of us
Quoted from yancy:Yeah I have a hard time rooting for either side of a loudmouth Texas lawyer spat.
Gee, that really hurts my feelings. Coming from you? NOT
I have no "spat" because i don't care, although i do have an interest in RAZA for many years. I have a hard time responding to a smartass but i just did. . What's your excuse?
Put me on "ignore", i hate to bother your delicate sensibilities. It's satisfying when you see that "ignored user post" pop up. It's a much better experience when you use it. Try it.
Not sure if you can use that feature though if you don't contribute to Pinside?
Quoted from yancy:Okay.
I don’t care enough to file a breach of contract claim right now which I would win without contest
The aggravation of getting the $4950 isn’t worth it unless I’m further provoked 
The replies I received from my fellow nice guy attorney are satisfactory.
And I want them to succeed despite Bob’s poor attitude. Still trying to give a little benefit of the doubt considering the immense stress they are under
Quoted from benheck:I've often said the secret behind Spooky's success is the fact we had to make games to make money, instead of getting the money ahead of time.
You don't work very hard when the money's already in the bank, especially if you're a lazy hack has-been who gets all their ideas from EMs.
How do you really feel about Jpop Ben? LOL
DR had loads of cash upfront as well. Burning cash with no output is not a sound business model?
Quoted from Cheeks:I know everyone in pinball hates the entire concept of DLC, but if done right, it could be really cool. Adding extra modes and such would be BS (the way Stern is handling recent toppers). WAY too slippery of a slope since it currently takes every manufacturer years to "finish" the code. When is the code "final" and when do you start charging for extra stuff that people feel should have been in from the beginning. This would be a shitshow.
However, if you could download entirely alternate rulesets as DLC, that would be awesome. Like in AIQ, you're fighting to keep Thanos from getting the stones. What if next year Stern came out with a DLC that changed all the rules and modes where now you play AS Thanos (and there was a setting to switch back and forth between games)? It's obvious this was not part of the original code, but would be a really cool addition that I would pay for.
For whatever people thing about Multimorphic (I love them) one of the cool things about their setup is you can buy software-only games that repurpose existing playfields in completely different ways. If the regular manufacturers instituted DLC in this way I'd be 100% for it.
Is that what I think deeproot means by costs associated with future modes? I highly doubt it. Probably more along the lines of jpop's Magic Girl is broken as shit, but you can pay to add the features that should have been there from the start.
The reason why Deeproot is trying to go down this road, and if they can get some adoption, it's the right business move for them and the investors, and all pinball for that matter when you consider the possibilities.
It's extremely difficult in ANY business to make it selling widgets and hardware only. On a huge scale, look at Apple and Microsoft.
Recurring revenue on an installed product user base is smart.
When i look around at the money that people spend, myself included, on let's say $1,000 Elvira toppers that you can't even buy right now, i don't have any doubt that people would spend extra $$$ on the DLC model.
People will kick, scream and bitch but it's coming at some point, from Stern too.
Apple has a 1.6 billion installed user base that they keep dropping monthly revenue streams across and call it "services revenue". It has caused the stock to explode.
How many games does Stern have? How about have older games revived by new code? The HARDWARE is getting to the place $$$$ wise that everybody has to look at ways to get MORE out of it.
Like it or not, it's coming.
Quoted from iceman44:The reason why Deeproot is trying to go down this road, and if they can get some adoption, it's the right business move for them and the investors, and all pinball for that matter when you consider the possibilities.
It's extremely difficult in ANY business to make it selling widgets and hardware only. On a huge scale, look at Apple and Microsoft.
Recurring revenue on an installed product user base is smart.
When i look around at the money that people spend, myself included, on let's say $1,000 Elvira toppers that you can't even buy right now, i don't have any doubt that people would spend extra $$$ on the DLC model.
People will kick, scream and bitch but it's coming at some point, from Stern too.
Apple has a 1.6 billion installed user base that they keep dropping monthly revenue streams across and call it "services revenue". It has caused the stock to explode.
How many games does Stern have? How about have older games revived by new code? The HARDWARE is getting to the place $$$$ wise that everybody has to look at ways to get MORE out of it.
Like it or not, it's coming.
Golden Tee. $99 to Incredible Tech every year. Online network etc.
Gonna pay for that in the future
I have a wedding to attend today in San Antonio. A few hundred people.
Otherwise i'd be there with ice chest out in the parking lot.
Mike is a great guy, helps me with repairs. Been wanting to go to "What's Brewing" for quite some time.
I'm hoping i can swing by late afternoon tomorrow.
Don't need all the Covid commentary. Everybody is capable of making their own decisions as to what is right for them.
Here in San Antonio and Texas everything is open. I'll be in Scottsdale for Thanksgiving and Vegas next weekend!
Quoted from PinRob:Clearly not the case with the current path the USA is on.
There is a Covid thread somewhere to express your panic and concerns
Not a whole lot of commentary on the actual gameplay.
That is what will sell a game or not.
The competition? Games like JP, EHOH, AIQ, STH, TMNT, DP, IMDN, etc. from Stern. JJP? GNR now. AP? Oktoberfest and Hot Wheels.
I don't see RAZA on the same level as the AP games? Gameplay wise.
I hope the other games in the pipeline are MUCH better than RAZA because i see this game selling a few hundred or so at this point. Maybe a bit more due to the novelty of the new features?
How many can they even manufacture at this point? JJP has a BIG hit in GNR and they can't get games out the door fast enough.
Quoted from benheck:RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors. Software as service/services is how MS and Apple broke the trillion $ market cap barrier. It's the future way corporations plan to bleed us dry.
Exactly. And that is the #1 criteria i look for when investing in a company, "recurring revenue streams" with a growing ecosystem.
That's what makes Tesla another excellent 10 yr investment, even from here, it's NOT the widget cars they are selling.
And pinball is going end up on this same track, it's inevitable. Don't shoot the messenger here. Not saying anyone has to like it.
Just look at these $1,000 toppers that people gobble up like hotcakes and the huge amounts of money that people spend to mod their pins.
Yep, it's coming.......
Quoted from Mr68:The only thing I really give a shit about is the Goodwill people in this mess. Keep in mind they are not getting a free game but rather they are recovering lost money. And some of them with smaller amounts will have to pay a balance to get a game per the agreement.
This monthly/yearly fee, if true, should be waived for them otherwise they are in a hostage situation. I can guarantee none of this was revealed in the Goodwill agreement.
Right on Kim! I'd reach out Deeproot but Robert asked me to never contact them again for simply questioning WHEN they would actually be able to live up to THEIR TERMS in the Goodwill Agreement. In other words, when could i make my visit to the facility, pursuant to the Agreement.
I thought it was a pretty simple and fair request?
And i was nice enough to NOT sue them for "breach of contract" . Yet. We will see how things are handled in the future.
I do like his IP lawyer though.
Quoted from PinSinner:If true, I pray the pinball community vote with their wallets, put an end to the nonsense swiftly, and signal to the manufacturers a loud and resounding NO!
If i had a nickel for every time i heard "vote with your wallets" over the past decade over bad pf's, code, quality etc. i could buy another fleet of pins!
People are gonna buy it no matter what. Look at the crappy JP and Elvira toppers for those prices to get a little extra experience of the game.
GB should have been done correctly from the beginning but after a few years when Dwight finally got around to it, the new code breathed some great new life into the game.
I'd like to see that happen across all of these $7-$10k pins we are buying from time to time. Of course, "it should all be free".
It would actually help retain resale value better.
Quoted from PinSinner:It is SUBSCRIPTION DLC that is the issue here. (Making people subscribe on a monthly or annual basis to obtain the downloadable content in order to obtain the full experience) It opens a dangerous precedent and a very slippery slope.
I don't think so. There is a difference with offering 1 time for fee updates and monthly sub revenue.
That's essentially what they are doing now with these toppers. You get a $50 plastic piece of junk, like my JP topper and paid $950 for the stupid Goat mode.
I'd rather pay $500 for a massive code update on let's say my AS, TWD, GB or any other host of older games that would make me want to turn them on again. AFTER they reach that level of final code.
It could even be a range of pricing depending on the depth of the updates.
And nobody is holding a gun to anybodies head to actually purchase the update.
BUT, if i wanted to sell an older game it would create some additional future excitement for the buyers.
Otherwise, you end up with some high priced boat anchors/pieces of artwork.
Get OFF the rip off toppers and get ON a better game experience over the LONG RUN.
Quoted from Haymaker:I'm not buying 2 years of service or a 1k topper from stern either though lol, but at least a 1k topper is a physical item with intrinsic value. lets also not forget, that while outrageously priced, the toppers are a limited edition item. Plus your $5000 machine is now a $6100 machine after 2 years, but I guarantee the resale value hasn't gone up.
Theres no amount of additional pinball content that is worth $500 a year, its just the fact that they know if they leave things out, they can pry that ungodly amount of money away from people. Its sickening to me.
Look I'm not a denier than DLC and subscriptions are a way of life now, and I even partake in those things myself, but mark my words, this will be the beginning of the end for pinballs latest comeback.
How do you like that Elvira topper? Lol
I don’t really care what Deeproot does or doesn’t do
I’d pay for one time substantial updates on my older games from Stern or JJP
So would everybody else
In fact, I already do it with Timlah’s awesome effort on JP
Quoted from PinSinner:You seem to be missing the point though. No doubt many would consider a one time payment for DLC. However, Deeproot (if true) are considering a SUBSCRIPTION model. (Not a one time payment) There is a difference.
Once the pinball community agrees to a subscription model, then the floodgates will open for us all to be taken advantage of.
#1. We are all already willingly being taken advantage of. Lol
I’m really thinking Stern and others, one timers, I don’t care what DR does
Although i guarantee you the monthly sub is coming from them
Out of curiosity i just checked the SEC filings. No annual update since 9-12-2019 on the "Deeproot 575 fund" which i believe was the entity that was used to fund pinball operations as an underlying investment for the fund.
"Once the initial Form D is submitted, the filer has to submit an annual amendment on or before the first anniversary date, if the offering is continuous. Certain private funds, such as private equity, generally do not submit an annual amendment if fundraising has been completed and no new commitments are being accepted. Private funds that close to new investors or liquidate before the anniversary date also do not need to submit an amendment."
Interestingly, on May 15, 2015, they filed another Reg D offering for $6,000,000 under "Deeproot Pinball, LLC" that appears to have never raised a dime according to the filing. That was the only one.
Then on September 3, 2015 they filed the first notice of offering, Reg D, for "Deeproot 575 fund".
The substantial amount of PPP money they received for two entities had to be used for payroll and rent. Not sure if they will be eligible for another loan on the new stimulus package coming?
How are the games going to get built?
Quoted from adol75:Nope we are paying for employees to keep their jobs.
That is a positive thing, we taxpayers are helping Deeproot employees get a paycheck due in large part to the terrible management of the company.
Covid had absolutely NOTHING to do with it other than provide another excuse. PPP gave them a lifeline.
Quoted from mrgone:Robert, nothing but a liar, and a con man..
Jpop. Cheap, 2 bit, low rent, con man.
Raza, an abomination 7 years in the making.
When Iceman, a zidware customer who was promised a tour of the plant, was threatened with legal action for asking for a tour he was promised. After Iceman publicly supported the company on this site. And some of you are still thinking these clowns are legit?
Dudes, wise up.
The best thing that could ever happen for pinball is for these two to be completely removed from pinball forever.
They are a cancer.
I’m awaiting a response on email I just sent to Robert and the lawyer
Yeah the plant tour is in their own Goodwill Agreement
The last update I got was in June and it said they expected to deliver games by September under the Agreement.
Again, their words
I just need some info here
So i received the Zidware updated "Goodwill Agreement" options today.
Actually quite good. DR is giving survivors the option to actually get a full refund by signing a w-9 etc.
I chose to apply my "Cumulative Deposit" to the Extra version, which was also discounted to $8,500 for Zidware guys.
For me, i felt it was a no brainer, and like Yelobird i didn't take the money originally because i wanted to support new pinball and especially a local company.
So instead of getting $4,950 back or $4,500, can't remember, it's $8,500 minus the Zidware $$ for the Extra version.
Crazy for not taking the refund? Lol, maybe but what the heck, i'm in pinball to spend/lose money and have fun!
Quoted from Fulltilt:Ditto. Requested my "Cumulative Deposit" go to the Xtra version with all the options. I may have enough credit left to cover shipping.
Might as well see this thing through to the end! Crazy F ing journey.
Btw, Mike, the guy that hosted the local reveal party at the coffee shop that i couldn't attend says he really likes the game and it was a lot of fun. He's a pretty good player.
I’m giving DR and Robert a pass on the history of dick dom. Time to turn the corner.
F it. Look forward
More pinball. More jobs. More better!
I’m in pinball for the fun experience.
And I’m happy to see Raza come together after 8 yrs, good or bad, onward and upward
Listened to the first part of the interview I thought it was a good start
He made a point of monies coming in going into an “account” and not being used to buy parts or pay salaries.
It sounds like they have a big inventory of certain parts and others to order to get RAZA games built and out the door
I like the strategy of making as many games as ordered between now and the end of the year then move on to the next game
They could always come back to it later if it’s a big success
Oursler doing Food Truck next and sounds like it will be just the one Arcade version. Smart move with that title if it’s priced right
They have some excellent talent at DR.
I hope they can get some traction by getting games out the door and move on to the next phase
My concern is how the coding on a DR game develops. It needs to be plenty deep, like Lyman and Elwin team
Why go back to old Bally shallow code days? We pay too much for these games to get less in that department.
Quoted from Tomass:I see what is going on now. They have taken all this time and spent millions on salaries and development costs to trick a couple hundred people into spending a few hundred bucks on a down payment so they can take that money and run. Those tricky bastards.
I’m assuming you are joking here. Lol
Yeah, this thing needs to work on a big scale and Raza is a small part of it
Gonna be tough.
Led Zeppelin on Tuesday and Alien as well.
Need to gain some traction
Quoted from Mr68:Pinball Brothers is making it. Several improvements from the original game from what I'm hearing.
Facebook Link: https://www.facebook.com/pinballbrothers
Not sure how you improve. Other than parts, cab etc
I just played a few on the original
And it would be the last pin I ever sell
Alien is going to CRUSH it
But the original I think will remain a better pin
Quoted from benheck:I ran away from John's purple shit show and helped found Spooky, which has shipped thousands of ACTUAL GAMES, employs 30 people and generates millions for vendors.
I'm soooooo awful.
Nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. I don't care if it's over and over again! I like it. . My favorite red flag was the "option" that you and John would come to our houses and do an assembly of our games!
A lot of people have those same feelings about John. I was right there with you from day one. He kept taking money from people, to fund his doodling efforts, knowing full well he was never going to produce anything. It's not even a Ponzi scheme because nothing ever got produced. Well i guess MG counts? Lol
Meanwhile, Spooky has evolved into a nice company from the ground up. That deserves respect and applause!
There are plenty of other people's livelihood at stake with DR. Really good and talented people.
I hope for the sake of pinball, the employees etc. this is just the starting point for DR and they grow into a success story.
Trying to scam people? There are a lot easier ways to do it than starting a pinball company. Lol
Quoted from NoQuarters:Hit the pinbar and the establishment your in brings your beer and food order out to you at the pinball game. Saves you 20 steps going up to the bar to order.
If that’s all the pinbar did, it’s a great innovation!
Ordering beer without interruption from playing the pin
Quoted from Scandell:I worked for Deeproot Studios last year and quit after Robert stopped paying me. I have 4 kids and couldn’t lend him money via “work without pay”. It’s feasible he owes me interest on late payment. He has since thrown a cease and desist at me and has threatened to pursue after a bonus he paid me as I joined his organization. Don’t assume we are all haters. You might just be lacking perspective.
It’s the worst part of DR
Shut up and make some games!
I would use cease and desist orders as toilet paper
I really don’t get it. Zero basis to pursue anybody and nor would they
NDAs are quite comical too
RAZA didn’t end up being what we expected 8 yrs later but hey it looks like fun to me and I’m excited to get it
I’m really interested in what they have coming down the road
Yukon Yeti and Food Truck
Iron out the kinks for big seller in Goonies!
Quoted from seenev:Did I hear this right in the interview? They wasted 3 months removing the pinbar from the game so they could show the game without it at a show? That sounds like the worst management decision in history.
Yes you heard that right
It was a mistake. Water under the bridge.
Onward and upward. Release, sell and produce
Quoted from hank527:Love the optimism
It’s more like try to get money as we have none, maybe produce and ship some games, go bankrupt. These guys are jokers. I do have the hate as I got burnt by Heighway, Skit b, and Jpop. I will never ever buy from a start up again. I advise everyone else not to part with your money unless you are okay just giving it up with nothing in return, and in that case, please give to your local food banks.
I don't blame you Hank, you received the pinball hall of fame trifecta ass pounding. Hate away.
Quoted from seenev:That sounds like the worst management decision in history.
Maybe hiring Jpop was the worst? . I'll never understand wanting to take on that baggage.
Should have hired Elwin back then.
He did mention in the interview that Goonies could be teed up around the 35th anniversary date in June.
Should be enough time to get a production flow going to handle some big orders.
Btw, i agree with Hank, tis the season to donate to charity and help others. I just gave to Elf Louise, local toys for kids campaign, and my favorite charity of all, St. Jude's Children hospital and any children's charity for that matter.
Quoted from BallPin:So what's the over under that Deeproot folds before Feburary 2021?
How much would you like to wager?
Quoted from nwpinball:From the numbers people have been reporting here and on Facebook, I'm guessing 25-50. I assume distributors will pick up some. And they are also making games for people Jpop owes them too. Would they do a run of only 50-100 games?
I think they def will do a run of 300-400 at least
And keep whatever excess in inventory for future sales despite what they say on cutting off orders
Quoted from BallPin:Can't wait to revisit this threat in March with the "I told you so". Game has been in development for 8+ years, launch was a fail, previous company was a fail, yet, ready to take non refundable money and the sheep are lined up. Any of the deep 6 purchasing a machine? They were there first hand and not one has admitted to submitting non-refundable deposit. I guess you can lead a thirsty man to a lake, but you can't make him drink. Again, prime locations available only $20 a square foot...get it while the property is hot hot hot!
Take a break Chris. Lol
"This week in pinball" and "Pinball news" are the closest thing we have to "pinball media".
People rambling into a microphone are no more "pinball media" than the words and issues I'm reporting on right now.
The so called "6 journalists" that went to DR is laughable. Maybe Jeff from TWIP? I think he did go.
The actual pinball playing "people" that got to see both versions and play them at the local coffee setup had a lot of positives to say about the game. I don't trust "fake news" media types.
Quoted from Mr68:That video is only 16 minutes long and that's one of the many reasons I suggest people subscribe to Cary's Youtube channel.
I like his persona and his episodes pack an informative punch while not being a total time suck like some other shows.
X1000
Every show should be 30 min max!
If it goes longer due to interviews break it up over a few days and release
Kaneda/Ballpin gets that! Lol. Sorry Chris
I’ll say one pet peeve of mine, because I used to do it giving presentations, is the continuous finishing of a statement with “right”....”right”....”right”...
Had my law professor buddy point that out to me long ago. You don’t know you are doing it and it’s annoying as F!
Quoted from toyotaboy:You have never worked in manufacturing. It's very easy to mess things up, even if you're really smart. Assembly is dull work and it's easy for your mind to wander as a result. If they don't have someone from deeproot overseeing assembly, things are going to get messed up, especially electrical things. If things aren't hooked up right, it's a very timely (and costly) process of figuring out what's wrong... In some cases you could destroy parts (IE put 48v coil power through a lamp).
I would agree with you if deeproot chose node boards, and the assemblers are literally screwing a pcb in position, and plugging in a connector that can't go in wrong, but from what I'm seeing under the playfield it is a mass amount of faston connectors. I really hope at the very least they chose different sized connectors between voltages.
Straighten them out Toyota! Guarantee you they are doing the "different sized connectors between voltages". Come on man!
Quoted from BallPin:From the deep six's mouth to your ears! Skip to the 5:15 mark.
I also don't have a show. It's getting really weird at pinside, where everyone that's a jerk to me, also thinks I have a podcast. I do not. I have no time for that, nor would I ever want to have a podcast.
Also I don't understand your month calculation...are you questioning me saying they need to figure out manfacturing in a month or so? Ok...let me explain. It's currently December, they are promising machines in February. That's a month...or so. They should be manufacturing now, or next month if they want to ship a machine by FEB.
You somehow believe I'm Kaneda, even though I've constantly said I'm not him...fact...that's not an opinion, I would know if I was him because...I'm not him. But yet, you have a hard time believing actual facts presented. No fact has been presented that I'm Kaneda...yet you easily believe that I am. I give you references, testimonials from people that were there, company history...and I'm making up "facts" and "opinons". I'm at a point in my life where when facts can't win arguments, you just walk away. I walked away from this thread saying "this was my last piece on Deeproot", but I just had to answer you because of the whole podcaster thing, it's insane!
I thought you were done? That's how we know you are Chris! No location, no history, no pins. Lol
Quoted from benheck:Eh I bet they sell 100-200. Which is far more than "hand the employees a screwdriver" can handle. Guess we will see.
I'm curious, how did Spooky start? They built 150 AMH somehow. And now they do 750 a year with 30 employees?
Is it possible to build pinball machines this way? How does AP build them?
I guessing since it's been done before it doesn't require NASA to put a line together and get some games out the door?
Maybe DR is the exception and simply can't do it despite the $$.
Quoted from frolic:Did deeproot raise all that cash just to copycat spooky's business model?
Gotta start somewhere? No?
And of course they didn't do it initially to follow the Spooky or AP model.
But to act like producing 700-1000 games a year requires an act of God is kind of ridiculous.
They will get games out the door, that's not the issue.
Quoted from benheck:They had a couple 900 sq ft units and built AMH basically one at a time with a few employees. Of course this was over the span of nearly 2 years. It didn't really resemble a "line" until they did RZ in their second building.
So yeah the main issue is if they do intend to build all 300 RAZA this spring do they have another game ready to feed that line? And will it sell enough to sustain it? Or is the intention to take it slow until they get to one with good sales potential like Goonies? As-is seems like they'll be doing Spooky numbers at best but with literally 1000x the budget.
To your point, they better have a line going and then be ready to feed it continuously and grow it over time.
The fixed overhead machine never stops churning! Whether you make 10 pins or a 1,000.
That's why Spooky, as you know, has been so successful and have done a great job of scaling up efficiently.
Quoted from toyotaboy:yea no way they build even 150 games in a lab environment. I've done pilot builds of product at a quantity of 50 between 4 engineers, and it was a fairly simple product and even then it was easily a solid week sitting on a temporary 4 bench production line. A pinball machine with that many parts to assemble between 4 engineers I'm guessing would go REALLY slow and would be a waste of resource. Really hope Robert turns this first build into an all hands on deck situation where every employee helps out otherwise your games are going to take FOREVER to build.
They need Toyota man on the line!!!
Exactly why you don't come out of the box with Goonies trying to fulfill 2,000 orders overnight.
Quoted from SunKing:Really? Seems to me that’s the MAIN issue now.
I like your optimism Ice. ...keep on being nice and maybe Robert will give you that tour after all.
.
Let me clarify that Sunking, they WILL get games out the door, the MAIN issue is how many and how long will it take to get "cash flow neutral" so they can at least come up for air.
Nobody has an unlimited cash burn stockpile. If they can make 300, then 500, then 750, then 1500 etc. and not run out of money in the process, that is the MAIN issue to me if I'm Robert's beancounter and putting my CPA hat on.
They may never make it with the amount of fixed overhead they have, i don't know how many units they have to sell or DLC upgrades to get there.
It ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna happen overnight.
Stern is boxing up 85 games a day with over 300 employees! Wow.
If you could box up 3 games a day over 250 work days a year for starters that's 750 pins. We know it takes Spooky 30 employees to get that done.
That's a possibility right? Maybe they need to produce 2 times that number per year to breakeven? Who knows.
Quoted from wamonkey:How are you convinced functioning games WILL get out of the door. I believe that they will get produced as well - but where does your confidence come from?
#1. They have the $$
#2. They have employees and talent
#3 With #1 they can hire more people to make the orders they get
I’m assuming that with all of the above they can be at least as competent as Spooky and AP in producing pinball games at their level initially. Maybe not?
They aren’t expecting Jpop to build Raza and say what you want about him but Robert isn’t an idiot.
I’m hoping they can just get going and build up over time and then see what happens
PB are back after blowing a million dollars. DR has many more millions to blow and/or succeed with
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Honest question because I'm not a lawyer, does blanket indemnity keep them from being liable if a game burns someone's house down?
Lol. I don't know why they do this, all it does is create confusion for potential buyers, who are not lawyers and shouldn't be required to get one to purchase a pinball machine.
Quoted from mbwalker:No offense Ice...but that's likely an easy answer: RM is an attorney.
No offense taken. I am too here locally
Told them to just get games out the door and everything else would take care of itself
Quoted from TreyBo69:You can hand waive it away as Zidware was another company. But let’s get real, deeproot is Zidware with some additional funding after some legal jujitsu
Come on man! Lol
Zidware was one person, Jpop, noodling and doodling in a tiny office in Chicago while collecting deposits for AIW to keep it going.
Deeproot hired the failed Jpop and gave his pin depositors the opportunity to be made whole again.
DR is an actual company with employees, it's own IP and lots of $$ raised.
For the record, RAZA was originally 99 games AND 25 cointaker editions for a total of 124.
MG started out as 13, then went to 16 or 19, then 25 and finally before the wheels fell off right before that fateful EXPO event, Jpop was talking to me about raising that number to at least 50. Bill Brandes would confirm this because he and i were getting in line for one of those additional MG games!
John did actually tell us NOT to send in any deposit money until he got things worked out with previous buyers. Had to tell them that it wasn't feasible to do a run of any game in that small of a number.
Then EXPO happened and the jig was up, the beginning of the end. Especially after the Dutch showed up with TBL.
AIW was going to be a higher number.
Quoted from cpr9999:There is some faith out there - up to 198!
So they may push 250-300 before closing out by Dec 30th.
That was my prediction
Pretty good start
Quoted from Kerry_Richard:A couple days ago, I posted (post 14,862)…
I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have decided on including the following:
Stay with Stainless Steel trim (no purple powder coating armor or purple PC coin door)
Shaker Motor Installed
Upgraded Toy Package; Standard plus Ramp stickers, Atomic Shop Sign, Motorcycle and JetStar
PitKit Care Package; A collection of common wear and tear replacement parts for customers wishing to have on hand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I’m still not clear on are these 2 items;
GI lighting; is it interactive?
Neon Rings; are they just the rubbers rings thru-out the game, or are they actual glowing rings or plastics?
Anyone have any additional information on these 2 items?
Thanks for your input
Kerry Richard
I would advise to call them to know for sure
Quoted from benheck:RAZA looks good and the cabinet has some very cool stuff. They'll probably sell all 300. I think some of my fellow haters are upset it didn't outright belly flop.
Thing is 300 is kind of a joke considering the investment thus far. Again maybe they are keeping it low to ramp up production. But it's also pretty weak considering when they spent to get Jpop - what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units? BTW nobody in the biz gets anymore near 500k a game in royalties.
Thus far the Jpop investment is a terrible one return wise!
Gotta walk before you run. The amount of cash burn thus far makes the Jpop investment pale in comparison.
I’m just thinking out loud but gotta believe the goal this year is getting from 25 or so employees up to a 75 or so, line workers
Simple math, to get a 1/4 or so of Stern production and of course having the games to keep that line running
Building 20 pins a day over 250 work days would net about 5,000 pins annually.
Even 1/2 that number sounds like a lot when you consider Spooky does 750 over a 15 month period?
Not sure how all this math adds up but you just gotta get the ball rolling and see where it goes
Quoted from gstellenberg:The low prices would be unsustainable even without massive startup and development costs. Add in various new technologies, and the price bumps even higher. I have a pretty good idea what it costs to manufacture pinball machines... stripped down ones, ones rich in traditional pinball features, and ones packed full of innovations.
The only way to get prices down much on complete machines is to increase volumes by a LOT, strip out features, or ship junk. Well... assuming you want to be profitable.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Congrats on the success of Heist Gerry! I hope it leads to bigger things for you guys in 2021
Gotta start somewhere like you did
I will give factory drive by updates in January
Quoted from NoQuarters:Yup this is a hustle too - won't turn out like Shamwow. They were shooting for that early on though Ferrari type pin with Kia pricing or what ever they were spouting at one time.
It’s not a hustle. They either make it or they don’t.
Gerry recruited some investors. These guys raised well over $30 million dollars
You can have an opinion and speculate all you want.
If you are correct you get NOTHING other than the satisfaction of watching a failed venture go down the toilet and bringing out the “I told you so” towels.
If you are wrong, you still get NOTHING
But once again, I appreciate everyone’s advice on how I should spend my f ing money. Thank you very little!
Ben is def hanging out the wrong people and that’s just my opinion.
Now, back to more titties Ted!
“Also, questioning the entire company also means questioning known people like Steve Bowden, David Thiel, and Barry Oursler. So for all of the Robert/Jpop/We've Seen This Before People, do you feel comfortable discrediting those industry veterans/known entities as well?”
It doesn’t fit the narrative by failing to credit these guys
Those guys surely must only remain because they are getting paychecks from a broke company with end near? Lol
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Definitely not black and white. Discussing clear warning flags is okay, I don't think going the "chest thumping everything's fine idiots" route is really that helpful either (thinking back to a particular Predator and Heighway defender).
I mean if you put your money forward to this venture despite the prior repeated broken commitments, waiver that you have to sign in case you get a crappy barely playable game, admission "our first games are not going to be 100%, we need your help fixing stuff", and more stuff that I can't even remember, you are braver than I am. That does not mean I want them to fail, but the reality I see suggests a much higher likelihood of failure than success.
I mean this company could not even stick the reveal landing; how many different ways did that go sideways. Repeated delays, initially showing off a crappy prototype game "on purpose to get feedback", more delays, bringing in pinball media, followed by more delays, then putting a game on test or something, finally followed by a 15 minute or so video of some people playing and talking about the game. Wow.
Then getting "tricked" into trying to trick buyers into some FOMO by only keeping orders open for a month or so, to get blindsided by at least one major Stern release and other rumored releases to bite into your sales. I mean if you were trying to fail, you could not do a better job.
I believe once again you are totally mistaken
Nobody is “chest thumping” f ing anything. But trying to lump this venture in with Predator or Heighway is just plain ignorance of the FACTS
If we can have a little excitement then I’ll make sure to get your approval first
But thanks anyhow
Quoted from hank527:I know and they showed it. They made games and failed. People lost lots of money. What does Deeproot have? Not even as far as Heighway was.
Millions of dollars. What do you think “lots of money” means?
PB say lost one million.
DR has raised $34 million
Let’s try and deal with the FACTS here
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Your opinion is wrong
And yes, I am just being argumentative... I will say I think the odds of a RAZA selling at above the preorder price (one year after release say) is larger than somehow LZ selling at more than retail. So RAZA wins being a better speculative investment. Yay.
Your uninformed opinion is wrong. See how that works
Raza wins in every way over LZ except theme
And hey, I am the first to criticize the pure shit execution of DR to this point
Somehow, with all of the temporary high school “talent” that was cobbled together in the early days Spooky managed to get games out and keep going.
American Pinball, AP, and I’ve never seen their production line, has managed to produce some awfully nice games of super
High quality. Maybe they came from the “pinball fairy” or Santa Claus?
CGC has produced some of the most amazing quality gorgeous remakes! Somehow, who knows?
Thus, one can conclude, with all that “talent” and money on hand at DR that it is certainly POSSIBLE that they too can put together pinball games
I’m sure the high school talent is just as good here in San Antonio!
You would have to have your head so far up your ass not to understand the “risks” involved if you have been around pinball and pinside at all!
That said, we are about to find out boys, the orders are in and the building will begin
Yes, failure is a possibility. I’m not sure what satisfaction those rooting for it get?
Quoted from BC_Gambit:We agree; I am just in the "prove it" camp at this point. I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt (or my money) when everything else is flashing "danger will Robinson".
I'd have to totally agree that waiting to see some results is the 100% smart thing to do!
I've waited since 2013 and they need gamblers like myself to go bravely into the deep dark night!
The drama is part of the FUN and excitement for me. And if i'm gonna blow money, it won't be the first time or the last. I'm here for the journey and the fun of the hobby.
Quoted from woodworker:[quoted image]
No wonder, that explains it all! it's Flynnibus clogging up the thread.
You guys need to use the "ignore feature". Works very well, helps keep thing civil and culls out the garbage.
Quoted from kklank:Agreed. Big ego. Other people see it as well. It’s exhausting.
Once again, the "ignore" feature is fantastic. Use it.
As for the rest of the shit train detractors, the orders are in and now it's all about getting the games out when they said they would.
Nothing else matters. When they do, they do. If you are getting NOTHING out of this or have no skin in the game then it doesn't matter WTF you think. LOL
Not one bit of whining, bitching, complaining or crying about what you don't like is going to change a single F ing fact of these games coming out the door in the next few months, 3 months?, 4 months? 5 months?...it's coming like it or not.
Quoted from spfxted:Do we need another break??
[quoted image]
Your head is kind of ruining the effect of those monster gorgeous titties Ted but i do love the effort!!!
Quoted from benheck:Hey I bore no ill will towards John at the time. Like Dennis I just wanted to "go someplace I could get a game actually made"
But looking back now, all the failed attempts. Dude is a hack fraud. And make no mistake he's running the show.
John isn’t running shit. Hack? Sure
You like talking a lot of shit Ben for a guy that has AMH as his resume and #2 quite a ways off! Lol
You better f ing kill it with your game
Quoted from littlecammi:Don't be so quick to judge. Iceman knows the night shift janitor crew at DR, who play the games after hours.
Lol. Yeah it’s not the janitor.
Quoted from benheck:It's called "Octo Manufacturing" because they'd sell exactly 8 Food Truck games.
Wanna bet it outsells AMH?
Quoted from benheck:Since it seems DR needs to spin up their line I'd say a deposit is a good way to determine how many people are truly committed to buying a game, this gives them the info they need to stock up and schedule.
Exactly, how else would you know what to ramp up for?
So I'll swing by sometime tomorrow and do the "counting cars in the parking lot" observation.
Quoted from frolic:How was the recon?
Apologies, back off vacation last week and swamped today
Tomorrow I go and post pics
Quoted from NoQuarters:How many cars in the parking lot ?
I'm down in Port Aransas this week. It'll have to wait until early next week before i can swing by there.
I'll take some pics and post so you guys can let your imagination run wild! Lol
Been very busy.
Great update Robert! Thanks for being transparent. That's just for you Kaneda. Lol
I do appreciate all of the concern and teeth gnashing from all of the looky lou's. It's heartening.
As one of the 130 Raza buyers, with the Goodwill money and extra discount, i'm perfectly happy and fine with however long it takes to receive mine. April? May? June? Just doesn't matter.
One would think that in order to get on to game #2 they have to actually get a line going and push game #1 out the door?
One way or the other it's not gonna drag out forever. It either gets done in a reasonable time frame, soon, or they will need to pass the ball so to speak.
In the meantime, I'll be receiving my GNRCE in a few days so take your time guys! Get it right and stay "transparent".
Quoted from benheck:So what's the deal with the investors? Is there a board? Do they vote? Or did they just give Robert a bunch of money because he's done well for them in the past?
If a normal startup spent $30 million and only sold 130 units they would be a management bloodbath.
Not how it worked in this case. No direct investment from investors into a pinball
Company as far as I can tell
I’ve explained it before. Read the SEC documents on file for the Deeproot 575 fund and you get the gist of it
Quoted from frolic:So... almost another $10 million raised December 2020? How is this explained to "investors"?
And for the curious, I added the numbers on that page:
$41,431,834
Bottom line that you guys are missing
The investors don’t give a flying F about pinball per se
Pinball is simply an “underlying investment” of the 575 fund
Look up what 575 stands for. That is WHY they invested and how they get their “return on investment”
Furthermore, it was mainly investment advisors selling their clients on this Reg D investment for the purpose of 575!
Quoted from toyotaboy:No, please explain how this works. Far as I can tell 575 fund is simply an LLC. How does hemorrhaging money get anyone an ROI?
"About the575 Investment Fund
the575 Fund by deeproot Funds offers hybrid Preferred Equity Class C Shares, backed by insurance policies and affiliates, with a 5 year term, and choice of 35% lump sum return (i.e. 7% internal simple deferred per annum growth), or 5% annualized periodic (monthly) payments. the575 also features a large account bonus option."
This is the RETURN that the "INVESTOR" receives for investing in the fund.
That's the Deeproot575, LLC fund that raised another $4.4 million or so, out of a total new offering of $37,500,000 available, per sec.gov, as of the most recent filing, 12-21-20?
The previous offering of $35,000,000 appears to have funded from prior sec filings.
The fund is "backed by insurance policies and affiliates".
One of the "affiliates" i'm assuming is Deeproot pinball.
What other investments are supporting the fund? Who knows. Has the pinball venture been a good investment to date? I think the answer is obvious thus far.
Quoted from toyotaboy:That doesn't really answer how they're making money so I dug deeper:
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/news/2016/08/23/local-investment-fund-betting-on-life-insurance.html
Sounds to me that they weren't doing that well betting on life insurance polices (which sounds like a terrible way to make money), tried to sell 50 million in debt in 2013 but weren't successful, but somehow they raised 41.5 million of investment for Pinball the past 4 years?
You do understand what a “fund” means I know
What you reference in 2013, old news, has zero relevance to this particular “fund”, it’s a totally different “offering”
It could be that they have investments in bitcoin, Apple, Tesla, green energy and who the heck knows
As for how YOU or I would invest our money it’s besides the point that they have raised almost $40 million into the 575 fund “somehow”. It’s a mystery right?
IF you would really like to “keep digging” and find out the details I suggest you fill out the “accredited investor” form and set up a time via their website to get an explanation
Report back what you find out. Lol
Quoted from benheck:It's progressing. Slowly.
Why so slow? What’s going on with CGC?
Quoted from roffels:I was curious about this too! I recall Kaneda getting one, was everyone on that preorder made whole? Was that similar to Deeproot's goodwill gesture, with American Pinball trying to do good to customer's burnt by jpop?
Kaneda bought his box of lights from Cointaker and then later flipped it of course
I believe all original MG buyers got their games thanks to AP.
Now thanks to Deeproot, the Raza and AIW buyers that funded the ultimate completion of MG in a way have an opportunity to get a game
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:And don't forget Robert announcing that Deeproot would additionally be extending a magnanimous goodwill gesture to help make whole victims of both Heighway Pinball and Dutch Pinball.
Anyone have a status update on that? If not, one assumes it will be part of RM's April email.
That’s fake news
Quoted from Haymaker:I thought he got it from mr68, at least the order spot.
I think you might be right? It was a BM66 that he got from Cointaker and flipped before he took possession. Lol
Quoted from wcbrandes:Not true! I know two people payed up 5k for a Raza from Jpop that have been denied for no reason by Robert because he writes his own history oh and then re writes it again! Stop defending this guy he is the worst!
I want my game Bill. Everybody had the opportunity to file their claim like I did.
Some chose not to and to sue Jpop instead which went nowhere. Some got their MGs however
Maybe it’s those people? Or they should sue Robert too? Lol
Quoted from DudeRegular:Not sure I understand your point though. Does that make it better or worse that they did make promises?
I don’t know Dude. But I’ll let u know when I get my game
I think it was stupid for DR to hire John. I’m sure Robert has regrets now.
Quoted from benheck:If Robert cared about business more than F'ING ART he would have bought out Alien and TBL and used his capital (which he had and they lacked) to build the games!
Games with KNOWN DESIRABILITY and DEMAND. Granted TBL only sold like 275 but that's more than RAZA and it's a real game. Andrew also shipped more Aliens than RAZA sold. DP is still selling new TBL, the demand is there.
But no. Robert went completely cuckoo for John's Coco Puffs and.... Here we are.
Gotta agree there. I think he might have tried too late on both?
Quoted from Stuieb84:I'm pretty sure kaneda lost about $3,000 on magic girl resale too
I give him some credit for actually setting it up and trying to play it. Lol
Quoted from wcbrandes:Nope they were filed and rejected. This guy is not at all honest and is full of hot air! Mine was one and his reasoning was absolutely a pile of steaming @$#%
Was his reasoning because of your claim to any Ip of Zidware?
Been a lot of $$$ flushed down the Jpop black hole!
Quoted from wcbrandes:The two of them are two peas in a pod and there is no doubt why he hired him. I'm actually wondering if jpop regrets going to work for deeproot!
And I know you just want your machine bud and i am praying you do!
Lol. I’m sure as long as Jpop can draw a salary he’s not gonna complain.
And the narcissist and ego-maniac that he is I’m sure he still doesn’t believe he ever did anything wrong!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Look he has no clue about business, he just threatens everybody with legal ease and I had my lawyers in the US just wanting to go after him on what he wrote to me but decided it was not even worth a fraction of my mental capacity ..which is not much!
My belief is that Pintasia owned the IP, as a finished game that worked 100% was not produced and it was basically just a box of lights and that is where the discretion would lie with the courts. I was not part of Pintasia by the way which he falsely accused me of breaking some contract and confirmed to me he just makes legal statements without really doing any homework what so ever!
I'm not arguing about his business acumen or lack thereof, certainly in the DR case thus far. And i'm not remotely defending Robert and his actions. Even he would have to agree i would think that the execution has been woeful by them!
He's threatened me a couple of times as well and i had to have a couple of nice conversations with his IP lawyer afterwards . I like that guy.
All of the "Goodwill" people could have sued for Breach of Contract and i thought about it when he was being an ass towards me but like you said, it's NOT worth the time, effort or mental capacity to F with it.
I believe they will begin to get games out the door at some point in the not too distant future. When? Who knows. If it never comes then you will have a massive drama story to talk about for years to come. LOL.
There is a HUGE amount of pressure to get something done. Millions of dollars have been spent and are at stake here, along with a slew of jobs and payroll.
I see it as water under the bridge for me. It's not personal. I tend to think of the bigger picture for DR and what it means for the other people that have worked hard to make something happen in spite of POOR/HORRENDOUS business decisions.
I have ZERO sympathy for JPOP or Robert for hiring him. It was a foolish move. And it's been really stupid on Robert's part thus far going down these meaningless legal threat rabbit holes.
I'm hoping he can recover from that foolishness and get a little redemption. If not, i don't think it will affect anybody here to any great degree other than the employees.
Quoted from benheck:Easily the talk at MGC, can't recall the year, but when John announced that he and I would be traveling to customer's home to set up their games.
First I'd heard of it. Complete lunacy even before taking into account I already had a very packed schedule because of my show contracts at the time.
The rest of it was mostly sloth and coffee breaks.
Yeah that was a whopper. It wasn't just like an "unboxing" experience. It was like, we are gonna help build and assemble your game for you on site for an extra fee. WTF!
Anybody can go back to the JPOP thread i started years ago, still might be most posted thread in Pinside history (?), for all the gory details, history, drama and stupid comments made by all. Not something i want to relive however.
That summer/fall before the infamous TBL Expo reveal, which was the beginning of the end for John’s charade, he was contemplating whether to increase the MG to 50 or 60 pins because in his words to me...
“Such a small run of just 25 isn’t feasible to get a quantity discount on parts”. And it started out as 13
I know Bill remembers because both of us were going to put a deposit down on MG before expo. Thankfully he delayed that part before it blew up
He knew he was in trouble when I spoke to him that summer but I’m not sure how bad
He basically had no accounting, records or anything to try and help him at the time
Then Bill came along I think that next spring? I was thankfully going out of the country when he was forming Pintasia?
The most egregious thing in my mind was him continuing to take money on AIW during that time frame, when he knew no game was ever gonna get built unless a white knight came along.
Then came AP. Crash. Then came DR. Hired him anyway
Oh the memories!!! Seems like yesterday Billy
Quoted from Fulltilt:Good things come to those that wait.
Lol. Those 487 pages have some good comedy in there along with the tragedy!
I’m going over for a car count manana
Quoted from SunKing:Hey Ice, did RM ever give you the tour of their facilities as you were promised? I think he reneged on that promise when you said said some naughty things. ...if I remember that correctly - let me know if I’m wrong.
No. That’s when he threatened me and said “I elevated this to a legal matter and to never call again or contact any DR employee, blah blah blah”
I called my/his IP lawyer and voiced my displeasure over that exchange. Lol
I feel it’s worked out now. Could have easily gone down the breach of contract road BUT I want them to be successful for all the big picture reasons so no biggie
He’s an attorney. But so am I.
He’s under a massive amount of pressure so I give him a break AND I want my game!
Now you guys can do your funnies on the full parking lot but the reality is that people are working on games
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:He said a lot of things. I feel so much vicarious embarrassment for the other deeprooters whenever Robert is talking or asking them to chime in.
If you enjoy cringe comedy and haven't watched that entire expo panel, I highly recommend you do.
Dude you are in LaHaina and I’m wondering why you even care! Lol
Going off the rails again to crazy town!
DR has NOT spent “tens of millions of dollars” on pinball.
The monies raised was NOT to invest in a pinball company per se
The monies raised were for the “575 fund” which is supported by affiliates, insurance etc. pinball is an “affiliate”
The “investors” have no clue.
The investment committee for 575 I was told had cut off funds to pinball. No idea how true that is.
I hate to rain on your bankruptcy party and parade! You guys still might get to see the total failure you want. lol
But...... if you recall, they received several hundred thousand in PPP money. So the idea that people are working for months on end with zero pay is BS.
I don't doubt the sentiment of what was said in the Glassdoor review, I'm sure Scandell will say the same thing.
I'm also relatively certain that the current employees are not slaves working for free? LOL
Quoted from benheck:The funny thing is RAZA is probably not even that great. Video wasn't very impressive. Where's the... Ahem... MAGIC?
I know it's not the narrative that you want to hear and i would agree that i didn't think the video was all that impressive either but.....
Mike M. who runs the pinball at "What's Brewing" in San Antonio and set up the whole thing spent a bunch of time actually playing the game and he's a big fan of it. He's an excellent player and works on my machines when needed. I respect his opinion and is one of the reasons i put my small deposit down.
Quoted from Mbecker:For certain, millions have been spent though. To get back to a net zero gain/loss at this point would still take years and good sales on more than 2 more titles.
Many many years. What they really need to achieve is to get to net cash flow positive. That's why they better get this thing off the ground and moving down the line, game to game.
As for recouping the original investment? I would say very doubtful, ever.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Ice Jpop gets everyone to work for free! You know this! when I got into Zidware, I had lunch with Zombie yeti and he gave me the low down! I ended up paying him what john owed out of my own pocket as he was the sane one at the comapny! He also barely paid for any product and still Owes Chris over a 100k! The books..... they may as well never existed they were a friggin mess !
I think you guys give Jpop the pied piper WAY too much credit Bill! He is one that should be working for FREE though.
Quoted from benheck:I dunno Ice. Yeah granted it probably wasn't the whole $30 million but I bet it was still A LOT.
Just back of the napkin math based only on what we've seen... The money piped through Zidware, the Utah studio/staff, the 41k Sq ft. noodling facility, a once large staff of engineers and creative professionals with competitive wages and benefits (not $11/hour line workers)
Might not be $30 million but I bet it's at least 10.
$10 mill prob in the ballpark
They had to have made some return on the $35 mill or so. It’s been a great market depending on what they invested in with the 575 fund
Investors expect to get their return and principal back
Quoted from Roostking:Great point ICE. They received
MY tax payer money. I didnt have an ax to grind before, but knowing they are clueless and taking MY money. Its hammer time, Eff dp. They deserve and will be bashed relentlessly.
People. WE are now investors in dr. How do you feel about that?
So we taxpayers are invested in every company in the country that received PPP? How do we get a return? Lol
I thought someone posted they got paid in two different entities?
Quoted from benheck:John is 59. Only a few more years of him destroying wealth in our community before he gets on early SS and goes to live in a van down by the river.
Poor Chris Farley didn’t make it. Love that guy and his movies
Any of you keyboard warriors want to lay down a bet on whether or not DR actually makes RAZA before they go bankrupt?
Now since this is the “reality thread “ does anyone want to step up and make some $$?
It’s easy money right? Lol
I doubt anyone has the balls but hey, I’m willing and waiting. I like to gamble
Quoted from Haymaker:Lol obviously
Come on big boy. Lol
Let’s go
Not one person will actually make a wager here. I just might know a few things so if you are feeling it...
$500 minimum
If you are on the “ignored user list” you have to PM me. Lol
It’s probably easy money for you? No?
One guy took me up on the Alien remake a few years ago. It’s happening now but not within the time frame. So I lost out on $500
Instead of just the non stop blabber let’s make it interesting?
No game? You win. I get one. You lose. I’d like to pay for it this way.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I’m pretty down on deeproot in general, and even I think they’ll fart a few games out
Make the bet more interesting, like when they’ll ship or an over/under on how many are delivered by the end of 2021.
Come on man!
In or out? Just one game to my house
Make some money
Quoted from toyotaboy:They already made two. So what quantity counts as "makes RAZA", all 160 units?
Crickets? Lol
My game in my house. Not those two.
Not that hard to grasp. You should know they can’t manufacture any pins ?
Scandell?
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:Hell I would. My problem is I won a Porsche a couple years ago on rotogrinders betting the Jets would beat the cowboys in NY. Some cocky Texan thought he knew it all, and his beloved cowboys couldn't lose agaisnt the shitty jets. Still waiting on my Porsche, safe to say I'm not placing any more bets only to deal with welchers
Come on right now. Lol
You don’t have the balls. We can escrow the $$ with any cocky Colorado dude
Everyone here knows I’m good for it. Who the F are you?
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:I'm nobody. Just popping in to share my story of full of shit texans. I guess while I'm at it I might as well share the obligatory quit moving to Colorado sentiment. We really don't want any more
I used to live there.
Thank God I live in the great state of Texas now!
Quoted from thechakapakuni:Is it me or is Iceman involved on the losing end of every Pinside scam & thread to date?Zidware, ASOA, Deeproot, etc. and then at 7pm Texas time we get him trying to type and drink moonshine at the same time?
Put your money up big boy? Lol. Actually little boy. Who are you really?
You won’t. You can’t. Total BS.
It’s kind of pathetic that you guys can’t come up with anything better
I’ve given you the ultimate FU bet?
And not one of you will take it. That figures
Quoted from Jvspin:Seems like a lose-lose proposition, unless you enjoy making money off of DR's failure.
What? I’m getting my game. Along with others
That’s a success.
But then I am betting against the blowhards that disappear when it comes to putting up the $$$. Lol
It’s all about the drama and only that
Quoted from RobT:Sounds like you are betting that DR will go down very similar to how Heighway Pinball went down.
Heighway did get a bunch of that first game out before folding Rob
Quoted from NoQuarters:Much better bet is buying 10 tickets from project pinball charity. Better odds of actually getting a game. And even when you lose, others win. Childrens Hospitals and Ronald McDonald Houses.
http://projectpinball.org/pinballmachineraffles/
Love that charity. Great cause
Quoted from RobT:You have a funny definition of "a bunch."
I was actually referring to Full Throttle.
Didn’t they produce 100-150 of those pins?
Quoted from jawjaw:They deserve to lose money? Wow. Ok. Don't think I am misinterpreting anything here. Pretty clear how you guys roll.
At least they are being honest now.
They want to see failure, loss of jobs and pinsiders to lose money.
I’m ok with that. Haters are everywhere hating on everything.
Has Robert been a dick? Sure.
I could care less
Because.....I will get my RAZA!
Not one of these guys has the balls to actually put money on it
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:As someone who brags casually about how much money he has tied up(lost) with ASOA and doesn't give a fuq, you clearly want to show yourself as someone who wipes his ass with $10,000-that's cool man the rest of us living in the real world will spend our money wisely. And when we do that we will laughably point fingers at you morons who dump money into these other morons who can't put a game out.
Lol.
I don’t need anybody telling me how to spend my money bro! Or If I want to wipe my ass with $100 dollar bills
I might consider selling my LE Raza for $50k though
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Boerne, TX