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360 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

Quoted from noitbe1:
If you compare with what’s happening with Aliens, no one is criticizing PB even if they lead the company and didn’t do refund. Even the boards are flagged Pinball Brothers on the old Aliens.
So my point is PB lead HP for a time and it went to chapter 7.
And...
You have DR who could have done without Zidware ( it should have save them a lot of trouble, for that we agree I think) they bought the assets for pinball which wasn’t even built: please don’t tell me that the Zidware Raza was ready for production... even the art was not part of the assets so they bought ... pretty much nothing but troubles... they bought themes and names, and offered (they didn’t have to) to refund Zidware buyers even if they were not responsible. Just ask Aliens buyer if they will have a refund: no a voucher.
So yes they bought troubles and I want to point out that I’m not defending Jpop, I know what he did and the troubles. Everyone can work and if DR hired him, he is not the only one of the designers out there and there are a lot of employees. (Zidware there was 1)

This is really off topic now

Let’s go back. Someone learned that someone else has been waiting for several years to get their RAZA. And someone replied that deep root has only been taking deposits for a few weeks.

I took exception to that because it’s purposefully obtuse. People did pay for RAZA years ago. That’s a fact

That’s all.

Quoted from TreyBo69:
This is really off topic now
Let’s go back. Someone learned that someone else has been waiting for several years to get their RAZA. And someone replied that deep root has only been taking deposits for a few weeks.
I took exception to that because it’s purposefully obtuse. People did pay for RAZA years ago. That’s a fact
That’s all.

Please share whatever you are smoking with the rest of us.

Quoted from noitbe1:
You can critisize all you want but saying zidware (jpop) is DR is nonsense.
DR proposed a refund for Zidware buyers, they didn’t have to. Yes they are not perfect but this was something positive.

Amen brotha'.
I had written off $9500 in payments made to John Popadiuk / Zidware as a total loss. Yes, he turned out to be a complete failure.

Deeproot hired the hoser and, through my keeping receipts of the payments to Zidware, offered me compensation for my total loss.
WAAT??

Succeed or not, I have an order in for a RAZA Xtra with all the trimmings. Including shipping it cost me an additional $90.

Keep the faith.

There is some faith out there - up to 198!

So they may push 250-300 before closing out by Dec 30th.

Quoted from cpr9999:
There is some faith out there - up to 198!
So they may push 250-300 before closing out by Dec 30th.

That was my prediction

Pretty good start

Quoted from cpr9999:
There is some faith out there - up to 198!
So they may push 250-300 before closing out by Dec 30th.

It’s those DeepRoot buyers still in the closet.

Quoted from Fulltilt:
It’s those DeepRoot buyers still in the closet.

I wouldn't advertise purchase on this thread, just brutal negativity here.

Hoping DeepRoot comes through

In addition to the indemnification are they also asking buyers to pay with PayPal Friends and Family?

Quoted from ArcadeRaid:
In addition to the indemnification are they also asking buyers to pay with PayPal Friends and Family?

That's hilarious.... good one.

A couple days ago, I posted (post 14,862)…

I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have decided on including the following:
Stay with Stainless Steel trim (no purple powder coating armor or purple PC coin door)
Shaker Motor Installed
Upgraded Toy Package; Standard plus Ramp stickers, Atomic Shop Sign, Motorcycle and JetStar
PitKit Care Package; A collection of common wear and tear replacement parts for customers wishing to have on hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I’m still not clear on are these 2 items;

GI lighting; is it interactive?

Neon Rings; are they just the rubbers rings thru-out the game, or are they actual glowing rings or plastics?

Anyone have any additional information on these 2 items?

Thanks for your input
Kerry Richard

Quoted from Kerry_Richard:
A couple days ago, I posted (post 14,862)…
I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have decided on including the following:
Stay with Stainless Steel trim (no purple powder coating armor or purple PC coin door)
Shaker Motor Installed
Upgraded Toy Package; Standard plus Ramp stickers, Atomic Shop Sign, Motorcycle and JetStar
PitKit Care Package; A collection of common wear and tear replacement parts for customers wishing to have on hand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I’m still not clear on are these 2 items;
GI lighting; is it interactive?
Neon Rings; are they just the rubbers rings thru-out the game, or are they actual glowing rings or plastics?
Anyone have any additional information on these 2 items?
Thanks for your input
Kerry Richard

I would advise to call them to know for sure

Until at least one game gets received by a buyer, anyone that ponys up $ to this is crazy IMO.

Faith only goes so far...

It's gone almost 9 years. ...
what's the rush

Quoted from Kerry_Richard:
A couple days ago, I posted (post 14,862)…
I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have decided on including the following:
Stay with Stainless Steel trim (no purple powder coating armor or purple PC coin door)
Shaker Motor Installed
Upgraded Toy Package; Standard plus Ramp stickers, Atomic Shop Sign, Motorcycle and JetStar
PitKit Care Package; A collection of common wear and tear replacement parts for customers wishing to have on hand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I’m still not clear on are these 2 items;
GI lighting; is it interactive?
Neon Rings; are they just the rubbers rings thru-out the game, or are they actual glowing rings or plastics?
Anyone have any additional information on these 2 items?
Thanks for your input
Kerry Richard

He shows the "GI lighting" in the video with the glass up. Think Pinstadium lights only mounted to the underside of the glass like they mount to the Alien pin. Same features as that product only installed factory. As for rings, not sure myself my guess is that they are the UV glow rings like Titan sells but I could be wrong.

If there’s still 200 people willing to throw money at a unproven new company that’s pretty much only talked shit for years now about their competition and how great they are going to be only to continually fail and blow self-laid timelines out of the water and backpedal and spend millions now to develop a couple prototype games over many years....

I’m wondering if preorder really is dead or could make a revival?!? Are peoples memories just terrible? Are people hoping against odds for something good to come out of this year? Is this hedging bets that value will go up due to limited supply? Fomo in case it turns out to be a good game?

200 games.. I say 0% chance that everyone has theirs by the end of 2021... especially with all the custom options. It almost makes it impossible to build except by the engineers, 1 by 1, which makes sense knowing Jpop is directing some stuff there. That probably still seems like a great idea to him. But fail or succeed as a company, I’m not rooting either way just blown away that people seem to be so starstruck by this game that they need to own it sight unseen. It’s like all logic is set aside. I’m just not seeing what’s so great here? It’s got some nice art, and a cool lifting glass and a pinbar. Great.

I hope it exceeds everyone’s expectations and they aren’t building these 200 or so still in 2023.. we shall see.

These look like to me to be the neon rings as shown in TWIP article. I think you would want to confirm that with deeproot.

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland-pinball-deep-dive-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-features-rules-and-more/

pasted_image (resized).png

Quoted from Mbecker:
If there’s still 200 people willing to throw money at a unproven new company that’s pretty much only talked shit for years now about their competition and how great they are going to be only to continually fail and blow self-laid timelines out of the water and backpedal and spend millions now to develop a couple prototype games over many years....
I’m wondering if preorder really is dead or could make a revival?!? Are peoples memories just terrible? Are people hoping against odds for something good to come out of this year? Is this hedging bets that value will go up due to limited supply? Fomo in case it turns out to be a good game?
200 games.. I say 0% chance that everyone has theirs by the end of 2021... especially with all the custom options. It almost makes it impossible to build except by the engineers, 1 by 1, which makes sense knowing Jpop is directing some stuff there. That probably still seems like a great idea to him. But fail or succeed as a company, I’m not rooting either way just blown away that people seem to be so starstruck by this game that they need to own it sight unseen. It’s like all logic is set aside. I’m just not seeing what’s so great here? It’s got some nice art, and a cool lifting glass and a pinbar. Great.
I hope it exceeds everyone’s expectations and they aren’t building these 200 or so still in 2023.. we shall see.

I have nothing vested in this pinball or DR.
However, I think most startups operate this way - very few that have cash to blow up front. If I was investing in this pinball I would want a distributor to hold my money and pay DR when game ships like Alien or TBL. However that is not the case.

Also, I understand people are so frustrated with Jpop that they equate DR to Jpop / Zidware. Last I checked there was a lot more people than Jpop at DR who have invested time & effort into pinball. For those people we should applaud their efforts.

I am also smart enough to know the road ahead on manufacturing is not easy (as I have a lot of experience) here. However it is not mission impossible. It requires discipline, bit know how and time plus some good manufacturing associates & steady flow of parts. Will DR get there week 1 month 1 - NO. But can they be humming by 3 to 4 months in yes. Will they get all these games built in the next 12 months - probably not, but DR needs to see it through.

To me the stake of their reputation and frankly the future of the company now depend on this discipline & performance. I am routing for their success - to me they are not Zidware. More pinball is good.

I say good luck!

Quoted from Mbecker:
Are peoples memories just terrible?

Most people that ordered, have no memory because they were not there yet.

Probably orders are from people with zidware compensation who are happy for a chance to get something at last.
Of the other part of orders it's probably 95pct people who recently joined the hobby (within last 4 years ?)

That have no idea of the backstory, and don't want to know.

If they say here they investigated, they mean they have read (some of) this 14000 post thread. They probably don't know of what happened before.
They may know AP was involved.
They probably don't know of Pintasia.
They probably don't know what zidware did since 2011, how the legal battle went.
They probably don't know that Johns plan for production was that Ben would come to your house for $1000 and put together your game.
They probably never read anything of Johns blog / zidware website, that gives insights in his ideas, way of thinking, how he reacted on the TBL announcement, how he announced new games without finishing mockups of the old (pre sold), how he took money to keep on making mockups without doing actually something to produce games or even make his mockups actually playable games (it's magic..).
They don't care that the whole DR business model doesn't make sense, just like Zidwares.

Only people who follow John for almost 10 years remember. A lot of things are not online anymore.
Some things were never online, you know some people and companies had issues with Zidware and things may have been resolved but everyone is bound by ndas and will not comment or only give some funny remarks..

So a lot of people that order now don't know. They order new games from Stern, JJP, Spooky, and ordering from DR is the same (it should be..). I sincerely hope they will get their game and it's good.
Some know of all the risks and don't care. They are blinded by the jpop name.
Some have money enough, the preorder price (or even full amount) is just pocket change for them and they won't leave any sleep if they lose it.
Some do it as an investment, and hope raza will raise in price like magic girl did.

Quoted from cpr9999:
I have nothing vested in this pinball or DR.
.......More pinball is good.
I say good luck!

You have common sense. I would add this cavet though to "More pinball is good" - it's only good if promises are kept and games get made. If not, another debacle just makes it harder for anybody to have confidence in any future start ups.

Good Luck to those who have dropped money on deposits and those waiting on other promises from the zidware make up deals.

I hope Santa Claus comes. Maybe the elves in the North Pole can put the games together after Christmas is over.
At least Santa has a production line.

More Santa is good.

Quoted from cpr9999:
However, I think most startups operate this way - very few that have cash to blow up front.

From what I've read in this thread, "cash to blow up front" was not the issue, as millions of dollars of investors' money has been spent to get this far.

Anyway thinking about their business model and trying to make sense of it, I'll write here my thoughts and wonder which scenario will happen

The scenario that will happen imo is that games will get made, it will only take a lot longer than most think and will not be an easy path.

It's possible John pulls out a rabbit out of his magic hat and producing the games is outsourced to AP. AP has the line and experience, and had stated in the past they could do contract work ? They've worked together with John in the past, so they know each other.
That would explain why DR doesn't talk about their production line. And if everything is already planned, you could produce games fast and deliver in a few months. That's what Pinball Bros are planning now. That is feasible.
CGC is another option, but I doubt they are involved.. They're busy with their own line of games, Bens game, I doubt they would want to get involved.

However I doubt this path of outsourcing will happen - then we would have heard about the AP contracting already. DR only gives the idea they will produce everything themselves. The relation between AP and John didn't end well, I don't think they want to get involved anymore.
Getting involved for the money is one thing, but DR/JPop don't create many goodwill and more burn bridges. If you get involved with them and something goes wrong (as a subcontractor) it'll be a messy legal end (similar to what happened with DP and Ara), and most people want to avoid this if they can.
Except if DR has some patents that CGC or AP want to use and they'll have no choice but to work together (I believe Gene C did something like this to get his playfields produced ?).

Johns history shows he's also not interested in the producing part. He's a designer. I doubt he's interested in spending hours to rework every part, optimise it for production and talking in detail to a contractor telling how it is best done - like DP has done.
As far as we know, DR didn't have anyone that fits this profile (AP hired someone experienced for this to create Houdini).

Thinking about the DR business model, it doesn't make sense. Because it's not setup or ran as a real manufacturing business.

Stern has a large production line. Their margin is probably low (maybe $1000 on a pro machine) but they make this up in their huge volume.
Spooky started manufacturing small, increased and grew small, but seems to know very well what their costs/profits are and can survive.
JJP started with investments, set up a huge line, and it seems they didn't know well in advance their real production / overhead cost and had to increase prices to stay in business.
Dutch now probably has a very high margin and are laughing each time a game leaves the factory - ok they maybe don't make much profit but the margin must be huge at the price they are selling because they can afford to make extra EA games now. I don't know for what price they expected to launch their next title, I hope it's less because Pinball Bros now shows contact games can be done much cheaper.
Pinball Bros probably also has a good idea what a pinball machine costs if you subcontract it and still want to make a profit.

Making games for $5000 and continue doing this ? If you're not Stern it looks impossible. There was the Nemo machine but that was a very small hobby project and the guy probably did it for the love and didn't pay for all the hours he put in. There was Gene, but he had parts, help, it was a long time ago (prices increased now) and it was a long project.
Hiring people, a huge factory, all the designers for the other games.. ? The numbers don't make sense.

It wouldn't surprise me that Robert at the moment has no idea what all his costs are to produce it (maybe raw material cost, but not total overhead costs included). And now that +200 games need to be produced, it's not something they can do like the Nemo guy. This is a much bigger scale.
The cost of setting up a large production line to make them all will become higher than they thought.
They are in JJP / Spooky size now.
And if they don't optimize every part of their game to save costs, they can produce them but it will cost them much more than was necessary.
It wouldn't surprise me if in a few months they'll conclude they produce RAZA for a loss. And then what ? Will they do so, will they try every legal trick they know to turn it around in a profit ?

Talking about Gene - this is who John and Robert remind me of.
It's also posted here he sometimes he didn't want to sell parts and seemed to want to brag he had something that no one else had.

John and Robert are also big egos who want to show who they are.
They are not into the business to produce games and make a profit, it's just a hobby project to stroke their ego.
That's why I think (just like with Gene), RAZA will be produced.
After all they've said and done, they cannot afford to bail out now.
It may take years, it may cost them much more than they thought, the games may have problems (which maybe won't be taken care of correctly), .. but I'm pretty sure that games get produced this time.

If they will exist for many more years and be able to produce 10 other titles ? I doubt this very much, overhead costs and investments need to be repayed someday by making a profit..
It's possible we're wrong and DR still makes a profit and earns back all the investments. But if pinball was that profitable then people like suncoast, highway, mafia, . Wouldn't have failed..

Quoted from aeneas:
Anyway thinking about their business model and trying to make sense of it, I'll write here my thoughts and wonder which scenario will happen
The scenario that will happen imo is that games will get made, it will only take a lot longer than most think and will not be an easy path.
It's possible John pulls out a rabbit out of his magic hat and producing the games is outsourced to AP. AP has the line and experience, and had stated in the past they could do contract work ? They've worked together with John in the past, so they know each other.
That would explain why DR doesn't talk about their production line. And if everything is already planned, you could produce games fast and deliver in a few months. That's what Pinball Bros are planning now. That is feasible.
CGC is another option, but I doubt they are involved.. They're busy with their own line of games, Bens game, I doubt they would want to get involved.
However I doubt this path of outsourcing will happen - then we would have heard about the AP contracting already. DR only gives the idea they will produce everything themselves. The relation between AP and John didn't end well, I don't think they want to get involved anymore.
Getting involved for the money is one thing, but DR/JPop don't create many goodwill and more burn bridges. If you get involved with them and something goes wrong (as a subcontractor) it'll be a messy legal end (similar to what happened with DP and Ara), and most people want to avoid this if they can.
Except if DR has some patents that CGC or AP want to use and they'll have no choice but to work together (I believe Gene C did something like this to get his playfields produced ?).
Johns history shows he's also not interested in the producing part. He's a designer. I doubt he's interested in spending hours to rework every part, optimise it for production and talking in detail to a contractor telling how it is best done - like DP has done.
As far as we know, DR didn't have anyone that fits this profile (AP hired someone experienced for this to create Houdini).
Thinking about the DR business model, it doesn't make sense. Because it's not setup or ran as a real manufacturing business.
Stern has a large production line. Their margin is probably low (maybe $1000 on a pro machine) but they make this up in their huge volume.
Spooky started manufacturing small, increased and grew small, but seems to know very well what their costs/profits are and can survive.
JJP started with investments, set up a huge line, and it seems they didn't know well in advance their real production / overhead cost and had to increase prices to stay in business.
Dutch now probably has a very high margin and are laughing each time a game leaves the factory - ok they maybe don't make much profit but the margin must be huge at the price they are selling because they can afford to make extra EA games now. I don't know for what price they expected to launch their next title, I hope it's less because Pinball Bros now shows contact games can be done much cheaper.
Pinball Bros probably also has a good idea what a pinball machine costs if you subcontract it and still want to make a profit.
Making games for $5000 and continue doing this ? If you're not Stern it looks impossible. There was the Nemo machine but that was a very small hobby project and the guy probably did it for the love and didn't pay for all the hours he put in. There was Gene, but he had parts, help, it was a long time ago (prices increased now) and it was a long project.
Hiring people, a huge factory, .. ? The numbers don't make sense.
It wouldn't surprise me that Robert at the moment has no idea what all his costs are to produce it (maybe raw material cost, but not total overhead costs included). And now that +200 games need to be produced, it's not something they can do like the Nemo guy. This is a much bigger scale.
The cost of setting up a large production line to make them all will become higher than they thought.
They are in JJP / Spooky size now.
And if they don't optimize every part of their game to save costs, they can produce them but it will cost them much more than was necessary.
It wouldn't surprise me if in a few months they'll conclude they produce RAZA for a loss. And then what ? Will they do so, will they try every legal trick they know to turn it around in a profit ?
Talking about Gene - this is who John and Robert remind me of.
It's also posted here he sometimes he didn't want to sell parts and seemed to want to brag he had something that no one else had.
John and Robert are also big egos who want to show who they are.
They are not into the business to produce games and make a profit, it's just a hobby project to stroke their ego.
That's why I think (just like with Gene), RAZA will be produced.
After all they've said and done, they cannot afford to bail out now.
It may take years, it may cost them much more than they thought, the games may have problems (which maybe won't be taken care of correctly), .. but I'm pretty sure that games get produced this time.
If they will exist for many more years and be able to produce 10 other titles ? I doubt this very much, overhead costs and investments need to be repayed someday by making a profit..

Are there Cliff notes for this?

Quoted from aeneas:
Thinking about the DR business model, it doesn't make sense.

This is where I get stuck as well and was my biggest life lesson from jpop. I went against my own instincts on what doesn't make sense. So when I come across it again, it's a red alert signal going off until proven otherwise. But it's not on me to have faith, it's on them to demonstrate they can do this. So far it's been nothing but blown deadlines and new deadlines.

It hasn't made sense since the start.

Quoted from cpr9999:
To me the stake of their reputation and frankly the future of the company now depend on this discipline & performance. I am routing for their success - to me they are not Zidware.

Fine, take Zidware and Jpop out of the equation. Based solely on Deeproot's history and performance so far, what is their reputation today?

Quoted from Mr68:
Fine, take Zidware and Jpop out of the equation. Based solely on Deeproot's history and performance so far, what is their reputation today?

Nothing yet - as I said they need to perform first. If no performance - no company no reputation. They are done.

Quoted from aeneas:
Anyway thinking about their business model and trying to make sense of it, I'll write here my thoughts and wonder which scenario will happen
The scenario that will happen imo is that games will get made, it will only take a lot longer than most think and will not be an easy path.
It's possible John pulls out a rabbit out of his magic hat and producing the games is outsourced to AP. AP has the line and experience, and had stated in the past they could do contract work ? They've worked together with John in the past, so they know each other.
That would explain why DR doesn't talk about their production line. And if everything is already planned, you could produce games fast and deliver in a few months. That's what Pinball Bros are planning now. That is feasible.
CGC is another option, but I doubt they are involved.. They're busy with their own line of games, Bens game, I doubt they would want to get involved.
However I doubt this path of outsourcing will happen - then we would have heard about the AP contracting already. DR only gives the idea they will produce everything themselves. The relation between AP and John didn't end well, I don't think they want to get involved anymore.
Getting involved for the money is one thing, but DR/JPop don't create many goodwill and more burn bridges. If you get involved with them and something goes wrong (as a subcontractor) it'll be a messy legal end (similar to what happened with DP and Ara), and most people want to avoid this if they can.
Except if DR has some patents that CGC or AP want to use and they'll have no choice but to work together (I believe Gene C did something like this to get his playfields produced ?).
Johns history shows he's also not interested in the producing part. He's a designer. I doubt he's interested in spending hours to rework every part, optimise it for production and talking in detail to a contractor telling how it is best done - like DP has done.
As far as we know, DR didn't have anyone that fits this profile (AP hired someone experienced for this to create Houdini).
Thinking about the DR business model, it doesn't make sense. Because it's not setup or ran as a real manufacturing business.
Stern has a large production line. Their margin is probably low (maybe $1000 on a pro machine) but they make this up in their huge volume.
Spooky started manufacturing small, increased and grew small, but seems to know very well what their costs/profits are and can survive.
JJP started with investments, set up a huge line, and it seems they didn't know well in advance their real production / overhead cost and had to increase prices to stay in business.
Dutch now probably has a very high margin and are laughing each time a game leaves the factory - ok they maybe don't make much profit but the margin must be huge at the price they are selling because they can afford to make extra EA games now. I don't know for what price they expected to launch their next title, I hope it's less because Pinball Bros now shows contact games can be done much cheaper.
Pinball Bros probably also has a good idea what a pinball machine costs if you subcontract it and still want to make a profit.
Making games for $5000 and continue doing this ? If you're not Stern it looks impossible. There was the Nemo machine but that was a very small hobby project and the guy probably did it for the love and didn't pay for all the hours he put in. There was Gene, but he had parts, help, it was a long time ago (prices increased now) and it was a long project.
Hiring people, a huge factory, all the designers for the other games.. ? The numbers don't make sense.
It wouldn't surprise me that Robert at the moment has no idea what all his costs are to produce it (maybe raw material cost, but not total overhead costs included). And now that +200 games need to be produced, it's not something they can do like the Nemo guy. This is a much bigger scale.
The cost of setting up a large production line to make them all will become higher than they thought.
They are in JJP / Spooky size now.
And if they don't optimize every part of their game to save costs, they can produce them but it will cost them much more than was necessary.
It wouldn't surprise me if in a few months they'll conclude they produce RAZA for a loss. And then what ? Will they do so, will they try every legal trick they know to turn it around in a profit ?
Talking about Gene - this is who John and Robert remind me of.
It's also posted here he sometimes he didn't want to sell parts and seemed to want to brag he had something that no one else had.
John and Robert are also big egos who want to show who they are.
They are not into the business to produce games and make a profit, it's just a hobby project to stroke their ego.
That's why I think (just like with Gene), RAZA will be produced.
After all they've said and done, they cannot afford to bail out now.
It may take years, it may cost them much more than they thought, the games may have problems (which maybe won't be taken care of correctly), .. but I'm pretty sure that games get produced this time.
If they will exist for many more years and be able to produce 10 other titles ? I doubt this very much, overhead costs and investments need to be repayed someday by making a profit..
It's possible we're wrong and DR still makes a profit and earns back all the investments. But if pinball was that profitable then people like suncoast, highway, mafia, . Wouldn't have failed..

Thumbs up - good comparisons!

I have heard AP’s next title is contracted game - could it be RAZA?????

Quoted from cpr9999:
Thumbs up - good comparisons!
I have heard AP’s next title is contracted game - could it be RAZA?????

I would think AP would steer clear, given the heartburn they went thru with Jpop's first attempt at Houdini and the subsequent small build of Magic Girl.

But it would keep the AP assembly line running since I guess the orders are near 200.

Quoted from cpr9999:
Nothing yet - as I said they need to perform first. If no performance - no company no reputation. They are done.

So far they have a five year history of deadline failures, hyperbole, secrecy, NDA's, dubious customer legal agreements and so on. I'd say they have a sizable reputation at this point.

Quoted from mbwalker:
I would think AP would steer clear, given the heartburn they went thru with Jpop's first attempt at Houdini and the subsequent small build of Magic Girl.
But it would keep the AP assembly line running since I guess the orders are near 200.

It also just seems like a bad idea because the games are still being designed, and you really need the designers to be able to walk back and forth from the production line and their office space.

Anyhow dr has been incredibly clear that the manufacturing of these 200 games are going to be built in their tiny office building.

Santas elves making the games is plausible. It would keep the workshop going after Christmas, but I think Jpop and Robert might be on the naughty list.

Don't know if Santa is keen with taking any partnerships or work from folks on the naughty list.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Santas elves making the games is plausible. It would keep the workshop going after Christmas, but I think Jpop and Robert might be on the naughty list.
Don't know if Santa is keen with taking any partnerships or work from folks on the naughty list.

I like working Santa into this one - LOL (perfect timing!)

A yeah - look at your avatar - HoHoHo. Of course you like Santa Claus.

Santa is their best bet. Too bad about the naughty list though. Throws a big wrench in the works. More delays.

Quoted from TreyBo69:
It also just seems like a bad idea because the games are still being designed, and you really need the designers to be able to walk back and forth from the production line and their office space...

No kidding. I remember our production lines being moved out of state. My ability to walk 100ft from my office to the production floor just disappeared. But some bean counter must have thought it was a good idea.

And this is about the same scenario. AP in Chicago, DP in Tx.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
A yeah - look at your avatar - HoHoHo. Of course you like Santa Claus.
Santa is their best bet. Too bad about the naughty list though. Throws a big wrench in the works.

Laughing out loud right now!
This Santa has his feet reclined now - no miracles being performed today here !

RAZA looks good and the cabinet has some very cool stuff. They'll probably sell all 300. I think some of my fellow haters are upset it didn't outright belly flop.

Thing is 300 is kind of a joke considering the investment thus far. Again maybe they are keeping it low to ramp up production. But it's also pretty weak considering when they spent to get Jpop - what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units? BTW nobody in the biz gets anymore near 500k a game in royalties.

Quoted from cpr9999:
Nothing yet - as I said they need to perform first. If no performance - no company no reputation. They are done.

There is no reputation or history yet? The last 5 years didn't happen?

Quoted from benheck:
what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units?

instead JJP spent whatever to get pat lawlor and he made dialed in.

Quoted from flynnibus:
There is no reputation or history yet? The last 5 years didn't happen?

Hey - cpr9999 IS Santa Claus. Of course he takes a lighter view of it all. He is working to get Jpop and Robert off the naughty list. If the elves in his workshop can make the games it's one step toward Santa's goal. The elves might be a tough sell though on all that work after Christmas. That would keep them busy well beyond next Christmas and how would the toys get made. That's a problem.

Quoted from flynnibus:
There is no reputation or history yet? The last 5 years didn't happen?

Let me explain a bit more....to me their reputation will - is based on making games (getting them to market).

What they did for the last 5 years (designing games, blowing through money, being boastful, etc) really has not affected the buyer of DR games since they did not have any or offer any for sale. NOW that they have taken pinball buyers money their reputation starts here forward - let’s see how they deliver.

All the hype, boastful taking, etc mean nothing to me the last 5 years. Now that they have “taken buyers money” their reputation will be watched closely by all. (“Actions speaker louder than Words”.)

If in fact they deliver on RAZA, they will have bigger sales on their 2nd game (despite whatever they did the last 5 years). Great example - DP. DP is delivering slowly on TBL and steadily building confidence. This instills confidence and a better reputation.

If they don’t they will close shop quickly.

So Santa is watching is what you're saying ?

Come on - Open up the workshop - lets see the line of elves !

Quoted from TaTa:
Are there Cliff notes for this?

Poster thinks they'll probably end up piecing together Razas with significant expense and difficulty because contract manufacturing won't be an option due to ego and bad relationships, and that it will all take much longer than estimated and cost more than than the sales bring in.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Santas elves making the games is plausible. It would keep the workshop going after Christmas, but I think Jpop and Robert might be on the naughty list.
Don't know if Santa is keen with taking any partnerships or work from folks on the naughty list.

Well , if you watched Fatman then you know Santa needs the money - he’d probably take this on as long as RM didn’t want to bury him in prohibitive liability contracts .

Quoted from greenhornet:
instead JJP spent whatever to get pat lawlor and he made dialed in.

A great game that sold over 1500 units? The horror!

Quoted from cpr9999:
Let me explain a bit more....to me their reputation will - is based on making games (getting them to market).
What they did for the last 5 years (designing games, blowing through money, being boastful, etc) really has not affected the buyer of DR games since they did not have any or offer any for sale. NOW that they have taken pinball buyers money their reputation starts here forward - let’s see how they deliver.
All the hype, boastful taking, etc mean nothing to me the last 5 years. Now that they have “taken buyers money” their reputation will be watched closely by all. (“Actions speaker louder than Words”.)
If in fact they deliver on RAZA, they will have bigger sales on their 2nd game (despite whatever they did the last 5 years). Great example - DP. DP is delivering slowly on TBL and steadily building confidence. This instills confidence and a better reputation.
If they don’t they will close shop quickly.

I understand what you are trying to say - but here's where I see it differently.

- They are not the sole supplier of pinball machines - so we as buyers have choices when we want to buy a pinball machine
- A company's philosophy and DNA is usually reflected in their product as every product is the result of many choices. So a company's posture can reflect in the product
- You are highly likely to have interaction with this company even after you take delivery of it - so their way of doing business is important to me as a buyer
- They are already positioning these products as something that has future potentials or ongoing functionality that doesn't operate in isolation - so your confidence in their ability to execute, continue, and deliver on future promises should all be important

To me, none of that starts and stops when they start shipping product. Sure they can have an inflection point where things change, and there are 'new beginnings' if you want to say where you should say "ok, I will give you the opportunity to prove your NEW self..." -- but IMO 'shipping first product' is not that inflection point. And a 'new, softer RM' isn't that inflection point either because I don't think we have really seen anything showing real change... just less ridiculous chest pounding.

So that is why I see their reputation as already forming.. and why I don't think they get a free "reboot" once a few RAZAs ship. To distance themselves from their past, they actually have to make change from that past.

Quoted from benheck:
RAZA looks good and the cabinet has some very cool stuff. They'll probably sell all 300. I think some of my fellow haters are upset it didn't outright belly flop.
Thing is 300 is kind of a joke considering the investment thus far. Again maybe they are keeping it low to ramp up production. But it's also pretty weak considering when they spent to get Jpop - what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units? BTW nobody in the biz gets anymore near 500k a game in royalties.

Thus far the Jpop investment is a terrible one return wise!

Gotta walk before you run. The amount of cash burn thus far makes the Jpop investment pale in comparison.

I’m just thinking out loud but gotta believe the goal this year is getting from 25 or so employees up to a 75 or so, line workers

Simple math, to get a 1/4 or so of Stern production and of course having the games to keep that line running

Building 20 pins a day over 250 work days would net about 5,000 pins annually.

Even 1/2 that number sounds like a lot when you consider Spooky does 750 over a 15 month period?

Not sure how all this math adds up but you just gotta get the ball rolling and see where it goes

Sign me up for a text alert when I can have one shipped same day.

How many of these buyers have actually played the game already? I have 6+ hours on the functional prototype and from what I can tell...not much has changed.

Quoted from benheck:
RAZA looks good and the cabinet has some very cool stuff. They'll probably sell all 300. I think some of my fellow haters are upset it didn't outright belly flop.
Thing is 300 is kind of a joke considering the investment thus far. Again maybe they are keeping it low to ramp up production. But it's also pretty weak considering when they spent to get Jpop - what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units? BTW nobody in the biz gets anymore near 500k a game in royalties.

Completely agree. I am honestly just stunned that Robert is allowed to continue to run the company. When you take investment money, I'm sorry but you now work for your investors. Presumably you have a board too, that unless stocked with your best buds eventually holds you accountable for performance. JPop is the least of their problems. JJP got ripped away from Jersey Jack and transplanted because investors weren't happy with performance (well the new investors who bailed them out at least). $1 can be invested in anything at all with any degree of risk one wants. Usually if you are gonna put it towards a new pinball company, there had better be something special in the pitch deck that tells them why they are gonna dominate the industry. Otherwise someone else is likely getting that $1 who is more deserving. It should be very clear by now (and even 3 years back) that this company is going to dominate exactly nothing, and all anyone is praying for is that they at least ship something rather than just end up a pile of worthless IP. That there hasn't been an investor revolt is surprising. I mean pinside can just bitch and moan all day long, but its meaningless what we think. But your investors ? The best way for a startup to get a "For Sale" sign hung on it quickly is to miss its delivery dates (badly). Perhaps the real story here is why that hasn't happened yet. I would hate to have to present the quarterly updates for Deeproot at their board meetings, unless there is some mesmerization going on none of us know about.

The DR opinion hate sermons are getting longer lately. I suspect many are seeing that this Will happen soon and the soap box will soon be nothing but a memory. So much time in this thread assuming doom theory. Please ship the games so this saga can end..... lol

Quoted from iceman44:
Not sure how all this math adds up but you just gotta get the ball rolling and see where it goes

Do you mean:

A- Just chuck a dart and see where it lands ?

B- On a wing and a prayer!

If so, I choose "B". There are wings, like on a fighter jet which is super duper cool AND a God like influence to boot. "B" is obviously the correct choice.

QSS

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago

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