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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#14851 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from toyotaboy:

yea no way they build even 150 games in a lab environment. I've done pilot builds of product at a quantity of 50 between 4 engineers, and it was a fairly simple product and even then it was easily a solid week sitting on a temporary 4 bench production line. A pinball machine with that many parts to assemble between 4 engineers I'm guessing would go REALLY slow and would be a waste of resource. Really hope Robert turns this first build into an all hands on deck situation where every employee helps out otherwise your games are going to take FOREVER to build.

They need Toyota man on the line!!!

Exactly why you don't come out of the box with Goonies trying to fulfill 2,000 orders overnight.

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#14852 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from SunKing:

Really? Seems to me that’s the MAIN issue now.
I like your optimism Ice. ...keep on being nice and maybe Robert will give you that tour after all.
.

Let me clarify that Sunking, they WILL get games out the door, the MAIN issue is how many and how long will it take to get "cash flow neutral" so they can at least come up for air.

Nobody has an unlimited cash burn stockpile. If they can make 300, then 500, then 750, then 1500 etc. and not run out of money in the process, that is the MAIN issue to me if I'm Robert's beancounter and putting my CPA hat on.

They may never make it with the amount of fixed overhead they have, i don't know how many units they have to sell or DLC upgrades to get there.

It ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna happen overnight.

Stern is boxing up 85 games a day with over 300 employees! Wow.

If you could box up 3 games a day over 250 work days a year for starters that's 750 pins. We know it takes Spooky 30 employees to get that done.

That's a possibility right? Maybe they need to produce 2 times that number per year to breakeven? Who knows.

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#14853 3 years ago
 
MAH

wamonkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

8y 73,300 1,272 7 9

Quoted from iceman44:

Let me clarify that Sunking, they WILL get games out the door, the MAIN issue is how many and how long will it take to get "cash flow neutral" so they can at least come up for air.
Nobody has an unlimited cash burn stockpile. If they can make 300, then 500, then 750, then 1500 etc. and not run out of money in the process, that is the MAIN issue to me if I'm Robert's beancounter and putting my CPA hat on.
They may never make it with the amount of fixed overhead they have, i don't know how many units they have to sell or DLC upgrades to get there.
It ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna happen overnight.
Stern is boxing up 85 games a day with over 300 employees! Wow.
If you could box up 3 games a day over 250 work days a year for starters that's 750 pins. We know it takes Spooky 30 employees to get that done.
That's a possibility right? Maybe they need to produce 2 times that number per year to breakeven? Who knows.

How are you convinced functioning games WILL get out of the door. I believe that they will get produced as well - but where does your confidence come from?

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#14854 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from wamonkey:

How are you convinced functioning games WILL get out of the door. I believe that they will get produced as well - but where does your confidence come from?

Do they even have a door built yet?

Where does building a door to load games out of fall in the Lean and Agile production system?

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#14855 3 years ago
 
BAT

gonzo73

Pinside member

3y 94,550 2,596 20 100

Sorry if this sound negative.
I want to see DR make new games, but.........

Most companys take a Holiday break.
When the Deep Root team reasembles Jan 2.
Are the doors going to be chained?
Did they get enough Raza orders to feel confident to continue burning money?

As Iceman said above, the path to just breaking even is years away, profitability??
Yikes!
I want a real WHO pin, so I'm pulling for DR.

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#14856 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from wamonkey:

How are you convinced functioning games WILL get out of the door. I believe that they will get produced as well - but where does your confidence come from?

#1. They have the $$

#2. They have employees and talent

#3 With #1 they can hire more people to make the orders they get

I’m assuming that with all of the above they can be at least as competent as Spooky and AP in producing pinball games at their level initially. Maybe not?

They aren’t expecting Jpop to build Raza and say what you want about him but Robert isn’t an idiot.

I’m hoping they can just get going and build up over time and then see what happens

PB are back after blowing a million dollars. DR has many more millions to blow and/or succeed with

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#14857 3 years ago
 
BAT

gonzo73

Pinside member

3y 94,550 2,596 20 100

Let's hope so...
Question.
Can you buy a game, and play it, without it being hooked intothe interwebs.
Like a real pinball machine?

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#14858 3 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

11y 106K 8,567 2

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Do they even have a door built yet?
Where does building a door to deliver games out of fall in the Lean and Agile production system?

Jpop doing what he does best, reengineering the door hinges! Could be awhile.

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#14859 3 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,427 249

Quoted from Warzard:

I couln’t agree more. I can’t even count the number of double posts by some saying they will fail, all is crap and so on...by a bunch of self assigned expert who knows everything.

I’m sorry but even if everyone has respect for your knowledge, your only pinball at Spooky was not really impressive. Between AMH and RAZA, sorry I would choose RAZA by far.
I’m not sure why you keep posting and reposting in here all the same critics. It’s like a broken record. Are you seriously angry at this point? What did they do to you personaly which deserve that kind of hate? Just curious.

You are forgetting Bill Paxton Pinball. AMH was actually produced and is not vaporware. Jpoop burnt Ben as he burnt many of us.

Go back to Lala land where Jpop is unicorns and rainbows.

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#14860 3 years ago
 
ARS

Robotoes

Pinside member

US Rutland, VT

9y 48,650 1,251

Quoted from iceman44:

#1. They have the $$

They do?

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#14861 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,240

Quoted from hank527:

You are forgetting Bill Paxton Pinball. AMH was actually produced and is not vaporware

And other projects too... I mean... it's not like you couldn't go on youtube and watch all this stuff... it's not like it was his JOB or anything.. Instead people without a clue just let us know they have none I guess some just want to be sure we have no doubt...

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#14862 3 years ago
 
KER

Kerry_Richard

Pinside+ Frequent

US Danville, CA

12y 83,900 3,024

I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!

I'm on the fence with these add ons:

Purple powder coating on armor and coin door... I actually really like the look of the Stainless Steel tho.
Neon Rings upgrade: I haven't seen pictures of these, so it's difficult to consider them. If they're like BBB neon tube rings, then YES!
Shaker, this could be a real cool added feel.
Upgraded toy package
GI lighting: I'm not a big fan of the dotted light reflections seen all over with the other brands out there.

Anyone who has made these decisions and want to comment / share, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Kerry

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#14863 3 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from Kerry_Richard:

I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!
I'm on the fence with these add ons:
Purple powder coating on armor and coin door... I actually really like the look of the Stainless Steel tho.
Neon Rings upgrade: I haven't seen pictures of these, so it's difficult to consider them. If they're like BBB neon tube rings, then YES!
Shaker, this could be a real cool added feel.
Upgraded toy package
GI lighting: I'm not a big fan of the dotted light reflections seen all over with the other brands out there.
Anyone who has made these decisions and want to comment / share, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Kerry

Like your choices. From general pics I like the Stadium GI as they seem much higher mounted on the glass for non in your eye illumination.

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#14864 3 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Mr68:

I found it concerning to read that to complete the sale for RAZA, customers have to DocuSign a contract giving Deeproot "blanket indemnity".

Frankly it wasn't that difficult. And my other course of action would be what??

Sign it or get another big fat nothing that I got signing into BHZA.

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#14865 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,648

Quoted from Kerry_Richard:

I'm building my RAZA machine order; I'm in on RAZA AE with added Topper for sure!
I'm on the fence with these add ons:
Purple powder coating on armor and coin door... I actually really like the look of the Stainless Steel tho.
Neon Rings upgrade: I haven't seen pictures of these, so it's difficult to consider them. If they're like BBB neon tube rings, then YES!
Shaker, this could be a real cool added feel.
Upgraded toy package
GI lighting: I'm not a big fan of the dotted light reflections seen all over with the other brands out there.
Anyone who has made these decisions and want to comment / share, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Kerry

Believe it or not, I did consider buying the Arcade Edition. Before I decided to bail, I was only going to get the GI Lighting and the Pinbar screen protector. I like the stainless steel better, not really a powder coat, topper or shaker guy and I already have PDI glass.

If you're interested in the PinPod it can't hurt to ask them for the same price as the Xtra. Xtra shows the Pinpod price as $550.

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#14866 3 years ago
 
PNK

PunkPin

Pinside member

10y 72,050 811

Best I can tell the neon rings are just referring to the playfield rubbers but I could be way off.. they definitely haven't shown them otherwise

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#14867 3 years ago
 
TOM

Tomass

Pinside member

US Wasilla, AK

6y 98,350 3,835 17

Quoted from gonzo73:

Sorry if this sound negative.
I want to see DR make new games, but.........
Most companys take a Holiday break.
When the Deep Root team reasembles Jan 2.
Are the doors going to be chained?
Did they get enough Raza orders to feel confident to continue burning money?
As Iceman said above, the path to just breaking even is years away, profitability??
Yikes!
I want a real WHO pin, so I'm pulling for DR.

Most companies I know take 1-2 days off for a holiday.

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#14868 3 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from Tomass:

Most companies I know take 1-2 days off for a holiday.

I predict we'll be hearing about Chinese New Year being a reason for further delays.

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#14869 3 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,427 249

Quoted from frolic:

I predict we'll be hearing about Chinese New Year being a reason for further delays.

Any excuses. Anything but making pinball. Where’s the factory and pictures of games in production? This is a complete joke. Preorder funding yet again.

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#14870 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

K

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#14871 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,648

Quoted from Mr68:

I already have PDI glass.

Oops, I just realised the glass is installed into the frame on RAZA and I have no idea how easy it would be to change out or even if it's the same size as my PDI glass.
Soooo, nevermind then.

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#14872 3 years ago
 
BOZ

ausretrogamer

ausretrogamer

7y 69,050 751 4 9

This is the only Food Truck game I’m buying today!

EF485E93-EBBD-43F1-A291-7261A488487E (resized).jpegEF485E93-EBBD-43F1-A291-7261A488487E (resized).jpeg
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#14873 3 years ago
 
DSS

Haymaker

Pinside member

US Rockford, IL

9y 125K 6,556 15 16

What about when (if?) production starts and suddenly they start running into problems getting the games built? I imagine thats gotta be part of tooling up for the first time on any project. It seems like even if they do get production started, claiming to get the games out by February might be counting their chickens before they hatch. There could be untold amounts of unseen issues and delays when trying to get these games built.

If they are truly hand building these themselves (which seems to be the most plausible explanation right now), what about when they do start needing to ramp things up for future titles to keep "feeding the line" suddenly they have to train a whole new staff all at once plus still get games out?

I don't know, I think something will happen, but I think theres a few more cans of worms to open first.

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#14874 3 years ago
 
ARS

Robotoes

Pinside member

US Rutland, VT

9y 48,650 1,251

Quoted from frolic:

I predict we'll be hearing about Chinese New Year being a reason for further delays.

I mean, yes. As someone who deals with Chinese manufacturing/production day-to-day, it's a real risk.

That said, anyone dealing with Chinese production knows this is a critical time. Should have been on this months ago and forecasting for it - both internally and on the supplier side.

So yeah - if excuses are made under these conditions - people should be realistic where blame should be placed: squarely on DR, and not pushed out to nameless, faceless suppliers.

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#14875 3 years ago
 
WOZ

Pinballs

Pinside member

GB London

10y 52,800 992

Quoted from ufotofu:

"Look, we know our head designer took thousands of dollars from you, buried it in a hole, and set it on fire. We're very, very sorry about that. We promise that nothing like that will ever happen again. Now, please give us thousands of dollars and sign this contract stating that if we DO bury your money in a hole and set it on fire, that you have no legal recourse. Also, please ignore the giant hole we're digging back there. And the cans of gasoline."

I'm probably not going to pre-order RAZA a second time, but the indemnity agreement, online requirement and DLC subscription are beginning to make this pinball machine, and indeed DR, look rather silly. Who would be willing to buy a pin under these constraints?

I would also question the legality of an agreement that is, presumably, designed to remove your consumer rights when making a purchase. In the UK, such an agreement would be ignored in court as it is illegal under the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

I don't know what the US equivalent Act is, but I'd be fascinated in a legal analysis of the 'indemnity agreement'. It seems fallacious to me. It is also yet another PR disaster from this start-up (or is that up-start?) company.

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#14876 3 years ago
 
ROB

RobT

Pinside member

13y 129K 21,266 3 40

Quoted from Pinballs:

I would also question the legality of an agreement that is, presumably, designed to remove your consumer rights when making a purchase. In the UK, such an agreement would be ignored in court as it is illegal under the Consumer Rights Act 2015:
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
I don't know what the US equivalent Act is, but I'd be fascinated in a legal analysis of the 'indemnity agreement'. It seems fallacious to me. It is also yet another PR disaster from this start-up (or is that up-start?) company.

Exactly right.

This "blanket indemnity" agreement is bullshit. You can't get around the various consumer protection laws this way.

I'd like to hear Iceman chime in on this issue.

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#14877 3 years ago
 
BWJ

Oldgoat

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 70,900 1,181

Quoted from RobT:

Exactly right.
This "blanket indemnity" agreement is bullshit. You can't get around the various consumer protection laws this way.
I'd like to hear Iceman chime in on this issue.

Many of these things, like NDA's, liability waivers and non-competes are used mainly for purposes of intimidation...to stop people form taking an action. They count on the majority of people simply shrugging their shoulders and saying 'it ain't worth fighting'. To be sure there are circumstances where these sort of agreements are enforceable; however, those circumstances tend to be pretty narrow and specific.

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#14878 3 years ago
 
ROB

RobT

Pinside member

13y 129K 21,266 3 40

Quoted from Oldgoat:

Many of these things, like NDA's, liability waivers and non-competes are used mainly for purposes of intimidation...to stop people form taking an action. They count on the majority of people simply shrugging their shoulders and saying 'it ain't worth fighting'. To be sure there are circumstances where these sort of agreements are enforceable; however, those circumstances tend to be pretty narrow and specific.

Correct. And RM knows this.

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#14879 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,648

The legalities and bad PR aside, to me the blanket indemnity also means they have zero confidence in their product.

New in box being sold, As Is? ...come on.

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#14880 3 years ago
 
WOZ

Pinballs

Pinside member

GB London

10y 52,800 992

The 'lifetime reverse warranty' is yet another red flag, I guess. Thank goodness they don't make cars.

And if you stop subscribing and/or stop being connected to the Internet, will it stop working?

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#14881 3 years ago
 
???

woodworker

Inactive member

Unknown

11y 43,550 245

No warranty or financial recourse?! A $1000 rebadged shipping crate? Non-refundable pre-orders? No factory or manufacturing experience?

I think you mean...

4rbsnx (resized).jpg4rbsnx (resized).jpg
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#14882 3 years ago
 
JAM

Wolfmarsh

Pinside member

12y 134K 10,956

Quoted from Mr68:

The legalities and bad PR aside, to me the blanket indemnity also means they have zero confidence in their product.

Honest question because I'm not a lawyer, does blanket indemnity keep them from being liable if a game burns someone's house down?

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#14883 3 years ago
 
WOZ

Pinballs

Pinside member

GB London

10y 52,800 992

I suspect the answer is- no, but they'd like you to think so.

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#14884 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Honest question because I'm not a lawyer, does blanket indemnity keep them from being liable if a game burns someone's house down?

Lol. I don't know why they do this, all it does is create confusion for potential buyers, who are not lawyers and shouldn't be required to get one to purchase a pinball machine.

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#14885 3 years ago
 
MBW

mbwalker

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 135K 5,326 9

Quoted from iceman44:

Lol. I don't know why they do this..

No offense Ice...but that's likely an easy answer: RM is an attorney.

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#14886 3 years ago
 
???

dpeck3

Pinside+ Frequent

US Hilton Head Island, SC

5y 48,550 214 2 6

Quoted from Pinballs:

I'm probably not going to pre-order RAZA a second time, but the indemnity agreement, online requirement and DLC subscription are beginning to make this pinball machine, and indeed DR, look rather silly. Who would be willing to buy a pin under these constraints?
I would also question the legality of an agreement that is, presumably, designed to remove your consumer rights when making a purchase. In the UK, such an agreement would be ignored in court as it is illegal under the Consumer Rights Act 2015:
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
I don't know what the US equivalent Act is, but I'd be fascinated in a legal analysis of the 'indemnity agreement'. It seems fallacious to me. It is also yet another PR disaster from this start-up (or is that up-start?) company.

Unless you’ve been one of the people who are (I don’t wanna use the word crazy but maybe brave enough?) to put down all of the money, it’s only a deposit that has been put down. And no smart lawyer is going to tell you to really fight for your 1500 bucks back. It’s gonna cost you $300 just to have a letter written by a lawyer here. Basically you just put $1800 in the slot machine and you’re hoping to get your money back at the very least. I’ve got a deposit in on one but understanding that this game has been delayed three times and in production for years does not make me very comfortable right now especially since there is no pictures of any factory or production and just three weeks ago when a very public tour that you can watch on YouTube was done, there was no production facility. Games in February? That would be a miracle. If DR Wanted you to believe there were really games, we would see pictures of some sort of production by now. That would sell games and raise customer confidence. Right now all I hear is laughter from everybody that I have told that I’ve given DR a deposit to. Makes me feel great. I’m done putting down deposits on start up companies. It’s a shame that some of the pinball universe has come down to you risking your money. Remember the good all days when you would put down your deposit and get a machine? Then the machine was delivered and it had a warranty? The way the contract is written, they can throw a game in the box that doesn’t work Or that’s been halfway engineered, ship it to you and tell you they delivered. Oh, but that you don’t have any warranty or recourse, have a nice day. Yeah I’ll drop 10,000 bucks on that. Ill take three of them please. What are they doing? Are they trying to sell games or scare people away? What exactly is their business model that is going to make them the next contender in the pinball industry with that type of approach?

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#14887 3 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from dpeck3:

If DR Wanted you to believe there were really games, we would see pictures of some sort of production by now. That would sell games and raise customer confidence. Right now all I hear is laughter from everybody that I have told that I’ve given DR a deposit to. Makes me feel great.

That's ok. I gave a big wad to a few guys playing around with foam mock ups.

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#14888 3 years ago
 
MAH

wamonkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

8y 73,300 1,272 7 9

Quoted from dpeck3:

Unless you’ve been one of the people who are (I don’t wanna use the word crazy but maybe brave enough?) to put down all of the money, it’s only a deposit that has been put down. And no smart lawyer is going to tell you to really fight for your 1500 bucks back. It’s gonna cost you $300 just to have a letter written by a lawyer here. Basically you just put $1800 in the slot machine and you’re hoping to get your money back at the very least. I’ve got a deposit in on one but understanding that this game has been delayed three times and in production for years does not make me very comfortable right now especially since there is no pictures of any factory or production and just three weeks ago when a very public tour that you can watch on YouTube was done, there was no production facility. Games in February? That would be a miracle. If DR Wanted you to believe there were really games, we would see pictures of some sort of production by now. That would sell games and raise customer confidence. Right now all I hear is laughter from everybody that I have told that I’ve given DR a deposit to. Makes me feel great. Promises dont really work anymore. I’m done putting down deposits on start up companies. It’s a shame that some of the pinball universe has come down to you risking your money. Remember the good all days when you would put down your deposit and get a machine? Then the machine was delivered and it had a warranty? The way the contract is written, they can throw a game in the box that doesn’t work Or that’s been halfway engineered, ship it to you and tell you they delivered. Oh, but that you don’t have any warranty or recourse, have a nice day. Yeah I’ll drop 10,000 bucks on that. Ill take three of them please. What are they doing? Are they trying to sell games or scare people away? What exactly is their business model that is going to make them the next contender in the pinball industry with that type of approach?

Wow - you say all that and still put a deposit down?

I think if you get an Arcade and it is $700 it is not that much of a risk I would worry more when they ask for the remaining balance and you have not seen any unboxings.

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#14889 3 years ago
 
???

dpeck3

Pinside+ Frequent

US Hilton Head Island, SC

5y 48,550 214 2 6

Quoted from wamonkey:

Wow - you say all that and still put a deposit down?
I think if you get an Arcade and it is $700 it is not that much of a risk I would worry more when they ask for the remaining balance and you have not seen any unboxings.

I only started worrying about it after I put my deposit down because I started hearing what people had to say. One of my friends has been waiting years for his machine come to find out. Trust me, when they ask for the remaining balance I’m not giving it to them unless I see the games have been delivered and they are working.

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#14890 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from mbwalker:

No offense Ice...but that's likely an easy answer: RM is an attorney.

No offense taken. I am too here locally

Told them to just get games out the door and everything else would take care of itself

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#14891 3 years ago
 
JMM

NoMonkey

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 66,800 371 17

Quoted from dpeck3:

I only started worrying about it after I put my deposit down because I started hearing what people had to say. One of my friends has been waiting years for his machine come to find out. Trust me, when they ask for the remaining balance I’m not giving it to them unless I see the games have been delivered and they are working.

I stand corrected regarding my statement about all buyers knowing the risks involved.

I'm also a buyer but I definitely had to wade through many red flags to get there. I'm comfortable with my decision but, then again, I did my homework and paid attention when a legal agreement came up prior to purchase.

I'm actually fairly surprised that you pulled the trigger and are just now understanding the implications.

Anyway, hopefully this will all be moot and we'll all get our games. But then again maybe not!

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#14892 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from hank527:

Any excuses. Anything but making pinball. Where’s the factory and pictures of games in production? This is a complete joke. Preorder funding yet again.

They will definitely need a line now... up to 186 in pre-order thread

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#14893 3 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 128K 3,012 13 1

Hopefully production line and not an unemployment line.

If they have 186 orders there are some gutsy or optimistic people out there betting they can make games.
Rubber is going to meet the road the next few months. Do they do it or more excuses ?

Wish anybody with deposits best of luck.

Quoted from cpr9999:

They will definitely need a line now... up to 186 in pre-order thread

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#14894 3 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from dpeck3:

I only started worrying about it after I put my deposit down because I started hearing what people had to say. One of my friends has been waiting years for his machine come to find out. Trust me, when they ask for the remaining balance I’m not giving it to them unless I see the games have been delivered and they are working.

Wow, didn't realize Deeproot was taking orders for this machine for Years? Last I checked that only happened a few weeks ago.

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#14895 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

Quoted from Yelobird:

Wow, didn't realize Deeproot was taking orders for this machine for Years? Last I checked that only happened a few weeks ago.

You know well enough people ordered RAZA years ago and deeproot said they’d get them their games

People have been waiting years for this

You can hand waive it away as Zidware was another company. But let’s get real, deeproot is Zidware with some additional funding after some legal jujitsu

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#14896 3 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from TreyBo69:

You know well enough people ordered RAZA years ago and deeproot said they’d get them their games
People have been waiting years for this
You can hand waive it away as Zidware was another company. But let’s get real, deeproot is Zidware with some additional funding after some legal jujitsu

Sorry don't agree. Nobody wrote a check to Deeproot. They did hire an employee from a Bankrupt company though. Luckily Deeproot is stepping up Volentarily to help those that invested in that magical Zid company so theres that. Unless you have a paid invoice to Deeproot Inc?

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#14897 3 years ago
 
BEN

noitbe1

Pinside member

FR Paris

11y 111K 1,937 4 11

Quoted from TreyBo69:

You know well enough people ordered RAZA years ago and deeproot said they’d get them their games
People have been waiting years for this
You can hand waive it away as Zidware was another company. But let’s get real, deeproot is Zidware with some additional funding after some legal jujitsu

You can critisize all you want but saying zidware (jpop) is DR is nonsense.
DR proposed a refund for Zidware buyers, they didn’t have to. Yes they are not perfect but this was something positive.
Would you say the same if Zidware didn’t hire Jpop?

I’m tired of this thread.

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#14898 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

Quoted from noitbe1:

You can critisize all you want but saying zidware (jpop) is DR is nonsense.
DR proposed a refund for Zidware buyers, they didn’t have to. Yes they are not perfect bit this was something positive.
Would you say the same if Zidware didn’t hire Jpop?
I’m tired of this thread.

deeproot was among JPops greatest debtors. They effectively bought Zidware without the legal baggage. The patents, designs, intellectual property, etc

JPop is the creative director at deeproot. He’s clearly still a major shot caller

It is not the clean break some are making it out to be. Or a company hiring a random employee from another failed company. Yes it’s technically not the same company

I would absolve deeproot if they actually had nothing to do with Zidware, but that’s not the case.

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#14899 3 years ago
 
BEN

noitbe1

Pinside member

FR Paris

11y 111K 1,937 4 11

Quoted from TreyBo69:

deeproot was among JPops greatest debtors. They effectively bought Zidware without the legal baggage. The patents, designs, intellectual property, etc
JPop is the creative director at deeproot. He’s clearly still a major shot caller
It is not the clean break some are making it out to be. Or a company hiring a random employee from another failed company. Yes it’s technically not the same company
I would absolve deeproot if they actually had nothing to do with Zidware, but that’s not the case.

If you compare with what’s happening with Aliens, no one is criticizing PB even if they lead the company and didn’t do refund. Even the boards are flagged Pinball Brothers on the old Aliens.
So my point is PB lead HP for a time and it went to chapter 7.

And...

You have DR who could have done without Zidware ( it should have save them a lot of trouble, for that we agree I think) they bought the assets for pinball which wasn’t even built: please don’t tell me that the Zidware Raza was ready for production... even the art was not part of the assets so they bought ... pretty much nothing but troubles... they bought themes and names, and offered (they didn’t have to) to refund Zidware buyers even if they were not responsible. Just ask Aliens buyer if they will have a refund: no a voucher.

So yes they bought troubles and I want to point out that I’m not defending Jpop, I know what he did and the troubles. Everyone can work and if DR hired him, he is not the only one of the designers out there and there are a lot of employees. (Zidware there was 1)

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#14900 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from TreyBo69:

You can hand waive it away as Zidware was another company. But let’s get real, deeproot is Zidware with some additional funding after some legal jujitsu

Come on man! Lol

Zidware was one person, Jpop, noodling and doodling in a tiny office in Chicago while collecting deposits for AIW to keep it going.

Deeproot hired the failed Jpop and gave his pin depositors the opportunity to be made whole again.

DR is an actual company with employees, it's own IP and lots of $$ raised.

For the record, RAZA was originally 99 games AND 25 cointaker editions for a total of 124.

MG started out as 13, then went to 16 or 19, then 25 and finally before the wheels fell off right before that fateful EXPO event, Jpop was talking to me about raising that number to at least 50. Bill Brandes would confirm this because he and i were getting in line for one of those additional MG games!

John did actually tell us NOT to send in any deposit money until he got things worked out with previous buyers. Had to tell them that it wasn't feasible to do a run of any game in that small of a number.

Then EXPO happened and the jig was up, the beginning of the end. Especially after the Dutch showed up with TBL.

AIW was going to be a higher number.

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