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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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  • 1,149 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 21 hours ago by sgtski1978
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#14801 3 years ago
 
AE

aeneas

Flippers.be

11y 76,050 1,525

Quoted from Warzard:

What did they do to you personaly which deserve that kind of hate? Just curious.

A similar question about Ben's involvement was just asked last week : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/289

I see you're since 2 years a pinside member.
If you are indeed new to pinball and aren't aware of the whole history (not manye poeple here are, considering how many new joined this great hobby the last years) - the JPop/Ben Heck story started almost 10 years ago.
There's no easy overview of everything that happened.. you can read a lot here on pinside but it's scattered between 10.000's of posts..
and there's probably a lot not publicly said because there are nda's.

Here in this thread you'll find people that follow the history for many years and are curious if history will repeat itself again.

If you're tired of the negative comments - there's now the pre-order thread where only happy things are being said about DR and JP.

I wonder if Ben will come to peoples houses and help them assemble/set up their machines ?

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#14802 3 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

Quoted from benheck:

Other pinball companies might sell you the wish fulfillment of being a rock star, a superhero or a ghost-busting time-traveler. FOOD TRUCK lets you live the dream of spending all day inside a hot, cramped mobile kitchen making minimum wage while hoping ICE doesn't show up.

I guess you ran out of material bashing RAZA so you have moved on to bashing deeproot’s second title when they haven’t even shipped their first??? Classy.

By the way Ben, your inappropriate comment stereotyping food truck workers is condescending, ignorant, and racist. There are many food trucks here in Pittsburgh that provide excellent food and service at various events including all the pinball events hosted at Helicon Brewing. I am glad these legitimate companies exist as they are not only filling a need but they are also providing employment for those that want to work.

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#14803 3 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

Quoted from aeneas:

A similar question about Ben's involvement was just asked last week : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/289
I see you're since 2 years a pinside member.
If you are indeed new to pinball and aren't aware of the whole history (not manye poeple here are, considering how many new joined this great hobby the last years) - the JPop/Ben Heck story started almost 10 years ago.
There's no easy overview of everything that happened.. you can read a lot here on pinside but it's scattered between 10.000's of posts..
and there's probably a lot not publicly said because there are nda's.
Here in this thread you'll find people that follow the history for many years and are curious if history will repeat itself again.
If you're tired of the negative comments - there's now the pre-order thread where only happy things are being said about DR and JP.
I wonder if Ben will come to peoples houses and help them assemble/set up their machines ?

What’s in the past is in the past. Now that deeproot is taking orders for RAZA, it’s time to see if they can accomplish what they set out to do. Everything in the past has been covered ad nauseam. Moving forward.

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#14804 3 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,649

I found it concerning to read that to complete the sale for RAZA, customers have to DocuSign a contract giving Deeproot "blanket indemnity".

I didn't read it because it's only listed in the buyers agreement and not on their webpage. But Pinsider Nysbadmk8, who backed out of the sale posted:

Quoted from Nysbadmk8:

The blanket indemnity.
Signing that paper would give you zero recourse to cure any faults, whether it be monetary (the deposit) or the product.
Given the history (not discussing it, but it cannot be ignored) I have to bow out and wait.
In addition. I've purchased three NIB games in the last 6 months.
None of the resellers or manufactures needed 1. A signed contract, 2. Complete Indemnification.

Later in the thread he posted in reply:

Quoted from Nysbadmk8:

You missed a few points, the biggest one you missed... If you only lose your deposit, you lose 600 bucks. If you pay in full and get a game which is full of problems, then you definitely lost more.

Do as you wish but you guys have some new red flags to unpack in all of that.

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#14805 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from Mr68:

I found it concerning to read that to complete the sale for RAZA, customers have to DocuSign a contract giving Deeproot "blanket indemnity".
I didn't read it because it's only listed in the buyers agreement and not on their webpage. But Pinsider Nysbadmk8, who backed out of the sale posted:

Later in the thread he posted in reply:

Do as you wish but you guys have some new red flags to unpack in all of that.

Yup - thanks for reposting.
Could someone repost again?

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#14806 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Is it bashing or constructive criticism? There's a LOT of money riding on deeproot and making 2 original themes in a row is incredibly risky.

I haven't had positive experiences with either of the two main players and they both stole my Old Testament Bible idea. Which they're free to do but they got it from me, not their own brains.

Oh and the owner apparently will sue employees for simply publicly saying they've quit. Ever consider these contracts you sign to buy a game are the tip of the litigious iceberg?

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#14807 3 years ago
 
???

woodworker

Inactive member

Unknown

11y 43,550 245

Quoted from cpr9999:

Yup - thanks for reposting.
Could someone repost again?

Where else in this thread was this info posted? This is the first I've heard of it.

Blanket indemnity? Yikes...

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#14808 3 years ago
 
???

pinlink

Pinside member

Unknown

8y 72,150 2,207

Quoted from wrb1977:

What’s in the past is in the past. Now that deeproot is taking orders for RAZA, it’s time to see if they can accomplish what they set out to do. Everything in the past has been covered ad nauseam. Moving forward.

You'd be smart to pay attention to the past, not ignore it as you are doing.

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#14809 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from wrb1977:

I guess you ran out of material bashing RAZA so you have moved on to bashing deeproot’s second title when they haven’t even shipped their first??? Classy.
By the way Ben, your inappropriate comment stereotyping food truck workers is condescending, ignorant, and racist. There are many food trucks here in Pittsburgh that provide excellent food and service at various events including all the pinball events hosted at Helicon Brewing. I am glad these legitimate companies exist as they are not only filling a need but they are also providing employment for those that want to work.

If racism isn’t your thing you really should look into the company’s defense of the Halloween costume of choice by the brains behind Food Truck.

Unless your attack on ben’s post is somewhat less than sincere.

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#14810 3 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

Quoted from pinlink:

You'd be smart to pay attention to the past, not ignore it as you are doing.

As I’ve said numerous times before, I’m not ignoring the past. I fully took EVERYTHING (past and present) into consideration, along with the contract, as I placed my order for RAZA. I’m an adult and I am fully capable of making my own decisions and accept the risks associated with them. Time will tell whether or not I made the right one. I have to step off the merry-go-round as it has gone around way too many times.

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#14811 3 years ago
 
WCB

wcbrandes

Pinside member

CA Vancouver, BC

12y 108K 3,594 33 13

Quoted from wrb1977:

As I’ve said numerous times before, I’m not ignoring the past. I fully took EVERYTHING (past and present) into consideration, along with the contract, as I placed my order for RAZA. I’m an adult and I am fully capable of making my own decisions and accept the risks associated with them. Time will tell whether or not I made the right one. I have to step off the merry-go-round as it has gone around way too many times.

The first two points are debatable.

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#14812 3 years ago
 
GGI

Warzard

Pinside member

5y 47,650 308

Quoted from aeneas:

the JPop/Ben Heck story started almost 10 years ago.
There's no easy overview of everything that happened.. you can read a lot here on pinside but it's scattered between 10.000's of posts..

I'm not saying everything is right from DR nor there is not a long history. There was NDAs, yes, look stupid, ok... so what?
Ben worked with Jpop 10 years ago. It didn't worked out... ok
JPop has failed many projects and people, yes.... we got that after around 400000 posts about it.
They didn't show any manufacture pics... OK ... they just need to deliver... that's it....

This is a new company, to build new pins. Why this broken records of critics? If they do release/produce those pins, what you guys will say? this is crap and so on....?

I mean, if you put all the critics aside, the pin itself look really decent, has shiny arts, you can save some money with modules, at least try something with its pinbar. I haven't seen as much hate with other Stern titles with no innovation at all.

We should encourage the risk, not blame all of them. At least it doesn't deserve that much hate before it's even released. Just a question, if they do release the pins and the others on time and the pins are good, do you guys will fill a bit of remorse?

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#14813 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Well we will see if they ship. It's troubling they won't show a production line, but it's also likely they aren't spooling it up until they know the volume of RAZA orders to fulfill.

In the last interview Robert says outright they don't know how many RAZA they will sell, which is kind of nuts considering the debt and complications they spent acquiring it.

Hey if some buyers finally get a game thanks to rich investors that's great. But much like how Uber is cheap because investors subsidize your ride it's not a good long term strategy.

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#14814 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from Warzard:

I'm not saying everything is right from DR nor there is not a long history. There was NDAs, yes, look stupid, ok... so what?
Ben worked with Jpop 10 years ago. It didn't worked out... ok
JPop has failed many projects and people, yes.... we got that after around 400000 posts about it.
They didn't show any manufacture pics... OK ... they just need to deliver... that's it....
This is a new company, to build new pins. Why this broken records of critics? If they do release/produce those pins, what you guys will say? this is crap and so on....?
I mean, if you put all the critics aside, the pin itself look really decent, has shiny arts, you can save some money with modules, at least try something with its pinbar. I haven't seen as much hate with other Stern titles with no innovation at all.
We should encourage the risk, not blame all of them. At least it doesn't deserve that much hate before it's even released. Just a question, if they do release the pins and the others on time and the pins are good, do you guys will fill a bit of remorse?

I am following the threads and not an investor - but dam I would hate to work with some of these guys OR be their kid - Always negative.

Let’s try this going forward - for every 5 deficiencies point out 1 positive. At least we would know you prescribe to MORE pinball is better than NO pinball!

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#14815 3 years ago
 
MBW

mbwalker

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 135K 5,326 9

Quoted from benheck:

Well we will see if they ship. It's troubling they won't show a production line, but it's also likely they aren't spooling it up until they know the volume of RAZA orders to fulfill...

I mentioned before, given the low numbers they were shooting for (i.e. limited run), I'm thinking these will likely be built in the lab by the engineers. Boutique build. Can they pull it off? Yeah, probably at low quantities if they have the parts. Hundreds? No, that would require a production run w/a real manufacturing floor/processes.

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#14816 3 years ago
 
ARS

Robotoes

Pinside member

US Rutland, VT

9y 48,650 1,251

Quoted from pinballwil:

Do you pinside cry babies have nothing else to do??? Than bitching Deeproot for what?
Go shame yourself, you don't deserve to be in this hobby. Go somewhere else jerking around.

You too take the advice.

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#14817 3 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

215958BB-C8AD-4AC7-A76E-A2C95AA6EB1C.gif215958BB-C8AD-4AC7-A76E-A2C95AA6EB1C.gif
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#14818 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from mbwalker:

I mentioned before, given the low numbers they were shooting for (i.e. limited run), I'm thinking these will likely be built in the lab by the engineers. Boutique build. Can they pull it off? Yeah, probably at low quantities if they have the parts. Hundreds? No, that would require a production run w/a real manufacturing floor/processes.

They will make over 200 if they have the cash, parts.

Orders ~160 already.

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#14819 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from mbwalker:

I mentioned before, given the low numbers they were shooting for (i.e. limited run), I'm thinking these will likely be built in the lab by the engineers. Boutique build. Can they pull it off? Yeah, probably at low quantities if they have the parts. Hundreds? No, that would require a production run w/a real manufacturing floor/processes.

Eh I bet they sell 100-200. Which is far more than "hand the employees a screwdriver" can handle. Guess we will see.

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#14820 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from cpr9999:

They will make over 200 if they have the cash, parts

You guys really think the plan is to just hand build these things in the garage?

If so At what point do they build an actual production line? Food Truck?

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#14821 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You guys really think the plan is to just hand build these things in the garage?
If so At what point do they build an actual production line? Food Truck?

I think at 200 you need a simple production line with line operators and engineers constantly involved.

Does that production line need to be the same as a Stern line NO. Stern makes high volume, big costs and big profits. To them line efficiency is important. To DR barebones is needed right now to produce the low volume orders.

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#14822 3 years ago
 
JH

NoQuarters

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 128K 3,012 13 1

They may hand build 30-40 of these for zidware compensation - they might pull that off. Beyond that who knows. I would not expect much.

Without a real production line they are toast.

Sorry @ cpr9999 - I don't have a positive other than maybe some zidware guys might sorta have a half a chance to be made whole.

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#14823 3 years ago
 
MBW

mbwalker

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 135K 5,326 9

Quoted from cpr9999:

They will make over 200 if they have the cash, parts.
Orders ~160 already.

Quoted from benheck:

Eh I bet they sell 100-200. Which is far more than "hand the employees a screwdriver" can handle. Guess we will see.

Yikes! That might be a problem - selling too many. Yeah, I wouldn't want to do that in the lab.

I guess just sit back and make some popcorn and see how this all plays out.

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#14824 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from NoQuarters:

They may hand build 30-40 of these for zidware compensation - they might pull that off. Beyond that who knows. I would not expect much.
Without a real production line they are toast.
Sorry @ cpr9999 - I don't have a positive other than maybe some zidware guys might sorta have a half a chance to be made whole.

Like it NoQuarters

I need to move over to the Aliens thread as I am investing in that startup!!

I wish DR success and the people that put in their down payments. However, their order quantity would have been higher if they did what PB & DP did - have the distributor hold the cash until game is ready to ship.

(See what I did there .... 1 good 1 critical comment - I call that productive. I guess that is the engineer in me

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#14825 3 years ago
 
BRC

jellikit

Pinside member

US Plainfield, IL

11y 106K 4,453 6

Here is a picture of the factory during a tour.

factory_tour (resized).jpgfactory_tour (resized).jpg

Ooops, wrong company.

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#14826 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from jellikit:

Here is a picture of the factory during a tour.
[quoted image]
Ooops, wrong company.

Glad you seen that production like cuz they don’t exist, they got run over on the highway!

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#14827 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,242

Quoted from Warzard:

This is a new company, to build new pins. Why this broken records of critics?

“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

The criticism comes in not for trying - but for failing to acknowledge nor address well established patterns. Or bravado that dismisses prior experience and replaces it with unsupported claims.

Reality is most questions are blown off or given ridiculous retorts like claiming secrecy, etc. The reality is, the company doesn't exist in an alternate universe. They have to live within the realities of our world and face and tackle the same challenges everyone else does.

The criticism comes from their lack of building confidence with information that would make people believe they have the solutions, experience, and high probability for positive outcomes. They address concerns with hand waving and fluffy promises that don't fit well with prior knowledge. They project postures that are defensive and anti-customer.

Do that for 3 years or so... all while whiffing on every bold promise... and yeah, you're going to create a bunch of doubters.

Now add in a community that 'wants to believe!!!' and are eager to throw money at the pied piper's feet... and you will also fuel interest for people to speak up against the behavior out of concern for their peers.

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#14828 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

I'll give Andrew this - he at least shipped a few hundred games and "made a go of it" - look how fast his hair turned white. That's not from lack of effort. I'm curious to see how much Pinball Bros have simplified his electronics.

RE: production. Say they sell 300. A small group of people could build them but it would take YEARS (that's how Spooky started, or see DP now, good for them BTW)

So assuming they get 200-300 orders and want them all done in spring (haha right) they're going to need a line. Questions them become:

1) How long to train and spool up the line?
2) Did they order the max # of parts (300) ahead of time? What's the vendor delay if they're waiting for final numbers?
3) Do they have another game ready when RAZA is done to keep the line moving? Or do they have to fire, hire and re-train, slowing down the process for Game #2?

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#14829 3 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,939 3 14

yea no way they build even 150 games in a lab environment. I've done pilot builds of product at a quantity of 50 between 4 engineers, and it was a fairly simple product and even then it was easily a solid week sitting on a temporary 4 bench production line. A pinball machine with that many parts to assemble between 4 engineers I'm guessing would go REALLY slow and would be a waste of resource. Really hope Robert turns this first build into an all hands on deck situation where every employee helps out otherwise your games are going to take FOREVER to build.

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#14830 3 years ago
 
JIM

cpr9999

CPR9999MODS.COM

17y 118K 4,768 29

Quoted from benheck:

I'll give Andrew this - he at least shipped a few hundred games and "made a go of it" - look how fast his hair turned white. That's not from lack of effort. I'm curious to see how much Pinball Bros have simplified his electronics.
RE: production. Say they sell 300. A small group of people could build them but it would take YEARS (that's how Spooky started, or see DP now, good for them BTW)
So assuming they get 200-300 orders and want them all done in spring (haha right) they're going to need a line. Questions them become:
1) How long to train and spool up the line?
2) Did they order the max # of parts (300) ahead of time? What's the vendor delay if they're waiting for final numbers?
3) Do they have another game ready when RAZA is done to keep the line moving? Or do they have to fire, hire and re-train, slowing down the process for Game #2?

Agree - all valid questions for DR....and DP....and PB. Not sure where any of them are going long term. Time will tell. However, I am rooting for all 3 as I think more pinball is better for the community. Heck JJP, AP, Spooky all came up similarly and still struggle today (although they have taken it farther...and here is wishing them more success!)

Also, for all 3 (DR/DP/PB), if you ordered games from them they will not come in weeks it will be many, many months. If you have patience and these companies have a few things go their way you will have a rare (hopefully fun) pinball machine (not sure of the worth...that is always debatable).

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#14831 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

Somebody in San Antonio keep on an eye on Task Rabbit for when it comes time to start building /s

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#14832 3 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,242

Quoted from mbwalker:

I mentioned before, given the low numbers they were shooting for (i.e. limited run), I'm thinking these will likely be built in the lab by the engineers. Boutique build. Can they pull it off? Yeah, probably at low quantities if they have the parts. Hundreds? No, that would require a production run w/a real manufacturing floor/processes.

That's what IPB tried with BBB - and even in that small volume production you need structure and processes to get a consistent product that could be built with a reliable pace and consistency. And they floundered until they addressed that lack of management and process.

Look at Spooky.. look how long it took to build 150 games in such a 'small group of experienced people' format. They were space constrained in the early days too, but even when they built the first dedicated building, and hired dedicated production staff, volume and delivery were still painfully slow... and not just 'because they wanted to be small'.. They struggled to meet their own production targets for a long time.

Look at the consistency and quality of the Heighway Pinball games that were built trying to just make do with what you had. Plagued with variations, reliability, and build issues.

I'm not saying it can't be done - samples and prototypes are built this way all the time. But you usually get there because you actually are trying to align with a production vision.. and you're just substituting personnel and skipping things like staging or even some pre-fabbed stuff. But the further you get away from diligence or dedication to the end state of a reliably produced product by low skill workers... the greater your risk of falling into traps or behaviors that will haunt the outcome.

"don't worry about process, we're just gonna hand build these with a few pros" should be sounding all kinds of alarms and concerns if that is the case.

And even if you do stick to the production ready design needs... but fail to get your business to the point where you can keep your momentum on the line going... you could end up like JJP did for so long. Big production space.. woefully under utilized and unable to produce at scale because they couldn't feed the beast reliably. JJP consistently tripped and floundered because they couldn't hit a steady pace that was a critical mass point to keep production healthy and efficient. Spits and spurts are not good for keeping a production facility running smoothly.

Deeproot needs to scale with demand and not overcommit... but they need to keep their eye on the endgame else your 'exceptions' start to haunt you and your customers.

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#14833 3 years ago
 
WCB

wcbrandes

Pinside member

CA Vancouver, BC

12y 108K 3,594 33 13

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You guys really think the plan is to just hand build these things in the garage?
If so At what point do they build an actual production line? Food Truck?

If they haven't set up a state of the art production line with all this money they have spent, then they are far dumber than I thought and well that's pretty fing far!

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#14834 3 years ago
 
???

pinlink

Pinside member

Unknown

8y 72,150 2,207

so if you pre-order this game, you have to sign a contract via DocuSign?? Stating that you have zero recourse in the event shit hits the fan LOLOL.

Good luck, guys! Should go well for you. #thistimeisdifferent!!

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#14835 3 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

Quoted from pinlink:

so if you pre-order this game, you have to sign a contract via DocuSign?? Stating that you have zero recourse in the event shit hits the fan LOLOL.
Good luck, guys! Should go well for you. #thistimeisdifferent!!

Robert is a lawyer first and foremost. If he’s going to get anything right, it’s going to be protecting his butt.

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#14836 3 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from toyotaboy:

I've done pilot builds of product at a quantity of 50 between 4 engineers, and it was a fairly simple product and even then it was easily a solid week sitting on a temporary 4 bench production line. A pinball machine with that many parts to assemble between 4 engineers I'm guessing would go REALLY slow and would be a waste of resource.

None of your projects used "quad manufacturing" though, did they? It's GAME-CHANGING. Probably doesn't even use a line.
SEND MONEY NOW

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#14837 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from pinlink:

so if you pre-order this game, you have to sign a contract via DocuSign?? Stating that you have zero recourse in the event shit hits the fan LOLOL.
Good luck, guys! Should go well for you. #thistimeisdifferent!!

It’s another deep root innovation.

Don’t think any other pinball company has ever done this!

Amazing!!!

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#14838 3 years ago
 
JTL

fnosm

Pinside+ Pro!

11y 97,300 1,970 1

Who in their right mind would sign that document before laying out big $?
Well if you are buying a ride to the ISS maybe but this is a consumer good not bleeding edge adventure travel.

0
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#14839 3 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from fnosm:

Who in their right mind would sign that document before laying out big $?

At this point it’s basically a cult. No different than signing a COVID waiver to attend a political rally.

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#14840 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from benheck:

Eh I bet they sell 100-200. Which is far more than "hand the employees a screwdriver" can handle. Guess we will see.

I'm curious, how did Spooky start? They built 150 AMH somehow. And now they do 750 a year with 30 employees?

Is it possible to build pinball machines this way? How does AP build them?

I guessing since it's been done before it doesn't require NASA to put a line together and get some games out the door?

Maybe DR is the exception and simply can't do it despite the $$.

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#14841 3 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from iceman44:

I'm curious, how did Spooky start? They built 150 AMH somehow. And now they do 750 a year with 30 employees?
Is it possible to build pinball machines this way? How does AP build them?
I guessing since it's been done before it doesn't require NASA to put a line together and get some games out the door?
Maybe DR is the exception and simply can't do it despite the $$.

Did deeproot raise all that cash just to copycat spooky's business model?

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#14842 3 years ago
 
DLA

ufotofu

Pinside member

7y 30,650 95

Quoted from Mr68:

I found it concerning to read that to complete the sale for RAZA, customers have to DocuSign a contract giving Deeproot "blanket indemnity".

"Look, we know our head designer took thousands of dollars from you, buried it in a hole, and set it on fire. We're very, very sorry about that. We promise that nothing like that will ever happen again. Now, please give us thousands of dollars and sign this contract stating that if we DO bury your money in a hole and set it on fire, that you have no legal recourse. Also, please ignore the giant hole we're digging back there. And the cans of gasoline."

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#14843 3 years ago
 
TGH

greenhornet

Pinside member

US Menifee, CA

6y 71,050 1,671

Quoted from ufotofu:

please ignore the giant hole we're digging back there. And the cans of gasoline.

popaduiks final day at the office.

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#14844 3 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,541

What will ship first? Italien or RAZA?

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#14845 3 years ago
 
WCB

wcbrandes

Pinside member

CA Vancouver, BC

12y 108K 3,594 33 13

Quoted from ufotofu:

"Look, we know our head designer took thousands of dollars from you, buried it in a hole, and set it on fire. We're very, very sorry about that. We promise that nothing like that will ever happen again. Now, please give us thousands of dollars and sign this contract stating that if we DO bury your money in a hole and set it on fire, that you have no legal recourse. Also, please ignore the giant hole we're digging back there. And the cans of gasoline."

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#14846 3 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from iceman44:

I'm curious, how did Spooky start? They built 150 AMH somehow. And now they do 750 a year with 30 employees?

They had a couple 900 sq ft units and built AMH basically one at a time with a few employees. Of course this was over the span of nearly 2 years. It didn't really resemble a "line" until they did RZ in their second building.

So yeah the main issue is if they do intend to build all 300 RAZA this spring do they have another game ready to feed that line? And will it sell enough to sustain it? Or is the intention to take it slow until they get to one with good sales potential like Goonies? As-is seems like they'll be doing Spooky numbers at best but with literally 1000x the budget.

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#14847 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from frolic:

Did deeproot raise all that cash just to copycat spooky's business model?

Gotta start somewhere? No?

And of course they didn't do it initially to follow the Spooky or AP model.

But to act like producing 700-1000 games a year requires an act of God is kind of ridiculous.

They will get games out the door, that's not the issue.

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#14848 3 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from benheck:

They had a couple 900 sq ft units and built AMH basically one at a time with a few employees. Of course this was over the span of nearly 2 years. It didn't really resemble a "line" until they did RZ in their second building.
So yeah the main issue is if they do intend to build all 300 RAZA this spring do they have another game ready to feed that line? And will it sell enough to sustain it? Or is the intention to take it slow until they get to one with good sales potential like Goonies? As-is seems like they'll be doing Spooky numbers at best but with literally 1000x the budget.

To your point, they better have a line going and then be ready to feed it continuously and grow it over time.

The fixed overhead machine never stops churning! Whether you make 10 pins or a 1,000.

That's why Spooky, as you know, has been so successful and have done a great job of scaling up efficiently.

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#14849 3 years ago
 
SK

SunKing

Pinside member

US Houston, TX

13y 130K 3,983 5 21

Quoted from iceman44:

They will get games out the door, that's not the issue.

Really? Seems to me that’s the MAIN issue now.

I like your optimism Ice. ...keep on being nice and maybe Robert will give you that tour after all.

.

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#14850 3 years ago
 
---

ForceFlow

Pinside Moderator

9y 238K 31,369 268 14

The only way is the deeproot way

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