(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

4 years ago


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#14301 12 months ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

There were existing gaming relationships with that licensor.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Dutch Pinball?

#14302 12 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Six weeks from yesterday according to their webpage and last nights podcast. Looks like January 20th, 2021 for Phase 1 deliveries.
**Someone please double check me on that.
Where's our countdown guy? .
[quoted image]

Nadda... nagga... notta gonna happen if they really were waiting for before sourcing parts in volume.

We basically have one more week before companies slow down for xmas/NewYears. Only 3 weeks after NY to go from what we assume is zero to games rolling out daily? I don't see it.

Look at what it took AP and CGC - both companies with manufacturing backgrounds... to get stood up and building even after the product was ready.

If they are still playing CYA with stories about supply chain disruptions... you can assume they don't have the parts pipeline already primed and running. So add in all those lead-times AND them ramping up any actual assembly processes and funnels.

#14303 12 months ago
Quoted from dc2010:

25 pre orders in 2 days

I would appreciate if noone else orders RAZA this year to be near the exclusive zidware Nrs. I want to have the only RAZA in Europe.

#14304 12 months ago

Not sure anyone has spoken about this but people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR. I understand this company has a lot of proving to do (and I mean a LOT) but what a great idea. Apparently a whitewood and 25 people wiling to preorder and they'll take it on. That dude with the Viking pinball should look into this. That's a really nice game.
https://deeprootpinball.com/community/homebrew

#14305 12 months ago

I wish them luck but my hunch is we now are now entering the naive DR manufacturing stage where RM thinks he’ll just scale up with some “quads” and the games will roll out. Bam. Done. Reality will be delay after delay after delay.

I don’t wish this on them and I hope they pull it off but my spidey naiveté sense is going off hard.

#14306 12 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR

Yeah, just roll up with your homebrew and they’ll bang em out with some quads. Easy.

12
#14307 12 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Not sure anyone has spoken about this but people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR. I understand this company has a lot of proving to do (and I mean a LOT) but what a great idea. Apparently a whitewood and 25 people wiling to preorder and they'll take it on. That dude with the Viking pinball should look into this. That's a really nice game.
https://deeprootpinball.com/community/homebrew

That is just insane and not insane in a good way. They can’t build one machine at any scale and yet they are going to offer up their non existent manufacturing line to produce niche runs. So home brew projects are home brew for a reason, they have zero refinement unless you are Scott Danesi and would never hold up in the real world. But no worry, Deeproot is gonna come in, put resources into a game selling 25 units and THIS is a successful and non distracting business model ? Oh boy, the word clueless comes to mind. This offer confirms they have zero idea what they are doing.

#14308 12 months ago

Upside of ordering RAZA is that you might get a damn rare collectible in your collection that almost no one else ordered.

Downside is you might be entering a world of pain here and delays are only the beginning.

I hope that by some fluke, everything works out and I look forward to playing it some day.

You buyers are brave as hell I’ll give you that. They might just pull this off. After 2020, anything is possible.

#14309 12 months ago

Just want to point out I get a notification Everytime they post position opening ,

They are engineer and senior buyers....90% of the time

I take this to mean they are looking for multiple parts manufacturing relationships to leverage costs and availability

It makes me think parts availability is the main issue

#14310 12 months ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Just want to point out I get a notification Everytime they post position opening ,
They are engineer and senior buyers....90% of the time
I take this to mean they are looking for multiple parts manufacturing relationships to leverage costs and availability
It makes me think parts availability is the main issue

That IS actually what Robert describes in the Pinball News Podcast.

#14311 12 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Not sure anyone has spoken about this but people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR. I understand this company has a lot of proving to do (and I mean a LOT) but what a great idea. Apparently a whitewood and 25 people wiling to preorder and they'll take it on. That dude with the Viking pinball should look into this. That's a really nice game.
https://deeprootpinball.com/community/homebrew

And have deeproot/jpop steal my work and call it theirs? Pass.

#14312 12 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

you might be entering a world of pain here

2k initial deposit is not much pain for me. The world of pain might be for those who miss the deadline and want a RAZA 2021.

#14313 12 months ago

One small gotcha - you have to use their platform and tools. Most homebrews are using p3roc and skeleton game/mpf.

Quoted from CLEllison:

Not sure anyone has spoken about this but people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR. I understand this company has a lot of proving to do (and I mean a LOT) but what a great idea. Apparently a whitewood and 25 people wiling to preorder and they'll take it on. That dude with the Viking pinball should look into this. That's a really nice game.
https://deeprootpinball.com/community/homebrew

#14314 12 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

And have deeproot/jpop steal my work and call it theirs? Pass.

They describe the designer getting 10-20% of the sale price per game. Let’s say the game sells for $6K. Getting $600-$1200 per game sold isn’t bad at all. Especially if they are able to sell it in any meaningful volume. How is that stealing? Most people don’t have any manufacturing ability.

#14315 12 months ago

Not saying I believe in their “ we’ll manufacture your home brew “ model but if the guy doing the Star Trek discovery goes this route I’m in !

#14316 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

They describe the designer getting 10-20% of the sale price per game. Let’s say the game sells for $6K. Getting $600-$1200 per game sold isn’t bad at all. Especially if they are able to sell it in any meaningful volume. How is that stealing? Most people don’t have any manufacturing ability.

The fear would be that you do lots of design work or make an interesting mech, submit it to deeproot, they say no, and then something very similar just so happens to show up later

And the whole homebrew thing makes less and less business sense the more you critically think about it. It’s several hundred if not a couple thousand hours to make a homebrew worthy of being a product for sale. Just to sell a few dozen? To say nothing of how unrealistic licensing costs would be for many homebrew projects

It’s just a silly idea that deeproot is considering because people keep saying a major manufacturer should consider turning a homebrew into a full fledged product. It’s ridiculous.

Homebrew is a passion project because you like pinball and doing design work. Games like Americas Most Haunted and TNA are the exceptions, and people really underestimate how much work guys like Ben and Scott put into them to elevate them from a project for themselves into a commercial product.

#14317 12 months ago

A thought...

DR is literally RE-inventing every single element of the pinball machine as we know it, hardware and software...

... and at the same time creating for the first time in history, everything that the human mind could think of to add to the pinball experience, subscription licensing, homebrew manufacturing service, code-it-yourself pinball, completely alternate code sets for each game, up to and including new shipping boxes.

And RM says there is much more they are not mentioning.

They are working on all this at the same time.

And on multiple titles at the same time. Each designer is working on multiple titles.

And they continue to remain confident that all this is going to come together and on schedule now in 2021.

Now stop for a second and think.

How many times in your life have you seen anyone or an organization succeed by taking this approach to success?

iPhone maybe comes to mind? Even Steve jobs failed at Next computer and not many would doubt he was a genius.

So getting to my point, I would love to see RM succeed and every fairy princess pinball wish come true simultaneously. It would be awesome and great for the industry.

But if you sense some of us older blokes not drinking the cool-aid, it’s because we know that the doing-everything-all-at-once approach simply does not work (99% of the time).

And even with deep-pocketed investors as they will eventually start to lose faith as the years drag on.

Now he might be successful but man my spidey sense is going off that something is very wrong here. Now let me be clear, by wrong I don’t mean intentional misleading or conspiracy as I think they think they actually think they can pull this off. I mean megalomania and naiveté.

Or I’m wrong, RM is a genius and DR will redifine every element of pinball and on schedule from now on. That’s possible too. And if that’s the case I’ll be happy to admit that my spidey sense was wrong.

#14318 12 months ago

If they were going to release games after September reveal that got postponed, I would think that they had time to set up some kind of assembly situation by now.
Good thing for DR to do now would be to be more transparent and show some games getting built..
Need to build some customer confidence.

#14319 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

How is that stealing?

What TreyBo said. Not only does Jpop have a proven history of that, but look at deeproot all doing it with things like the pinpod. That's just a rebranded product they called their innovation.

You might also not be considering the very large gap between a homebrew machine and a production machine. Is the gap closable? Sure. For 25 games though, not a freaking chance.

#14320 12 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

What TreyBo said. Not only does Jpop have a proven history of that, but look at deeproot all doing it with things like the pinpod. That's just a rebranded product they called their innovation.
You might also not be considering the very large gap between a homebrew machine and a production machine. Is the gap closable? Sure. For 25 games though, not a freaking chance.

Not debating that part. I don’t even understand how 25 games is visible for anyone.

#14321 12 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

A thought...
DR is literally RE-inventing every single element of the pinball machine as we know it, hardware and software...
... and at the same time creating for the first time in history, everything that the human mind could think of to add to the pinball experience, subscription licensing, homebrew manufacturing service, code-it-yourself pinball, completely alternate code sets for each game, up to and including new shipping boxes.
And RM says there is much more they are not mentioning.
They are working on all this at the same time.
And on multiple titles at the same time. Each designer is working on multiple titles.
And they continue to remain confident that all this is going to come together and on schedule now in 2021.

Now stop for a second and think.
How many times in your life have you seen anyone or an organization succeed by taking this approach to success?
iPhone maybe comes to mind? Even Steve jobs failed at Next computer and not many would doubt he was a genius.
So getting to my point, I would love to see RM succeed and every fairy princess pinball wish come true simultaneously. It would be awesome and great for the industry.
But if you sense some of us older blokes not drinking the cool-aid, it’s because we know that the doing-everything-all-at-once approach simply does not work (99% of the time).
And even with deep-pocketed investors as they will eventually start to lose faith as the years drag on.
Now he might be successful but man my spidey sense is going off that something is very wrong here. Now let me be clear, by wrong I don’t mean intentional misleading or conspiracy as I think they think they actually think they can pull this off. I mean megalomania and naiveté.
Or I’m wrong, RM is a genius and DR will redifine every element of pinball and on schedule from now on. That’s possible too. And if that’s the case I’ll be happy to admit that my spidey sense was wrong.

If you read back through the thread you summed up what a lot of us have been saying. This is the definition of uncontrolled scope creep. They were not focused on making a great game and getting it out the door. They wanted to redefine everything. Also I wouldn’t be surprised if they are having a hard time finding suppliers because Stern and JJP existing supply chain would probably give Robert a hard cold shoulder.

#14322 12 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

What TreyBo said. Not only does Jpop have a proven history of that, but look at deeproot all doing it with things like the pinpod. That's just a rebranded product they called their innovation.
You might also not be considering the very large gap between a homebrew machine and a production machine. Is the gap closable? Sure. For 25 games though, not a freaking chance.

Also let’s say someone does spend a bunch of time getting something ready. What do they do when they can’t get to 25 sales?

Some might say it’s a low bar, but games like The Mafia, Cosmic Carnival, and (I’ll call it now) Punny Factory show there isn’t some ravenous demand for games that are a few steps above a typical homebrew project.

And that’s without getting into trusting deeproot to build anything or porting existing work to their dev tools

#14323 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Not debating that part. I don’t even understand how 25 games is visible for anyone.

Stern won’t even mess with making less than 100 of something, and it’s going to be something like Primus at a high sales cost and an incredibly low development cost.

It’s just another example of deeproot pulling arbitrary ideas and numbers out of thin air

#14324 12 months ago

If you read the Homebrew section closely, it mentions using existing tools and existing mechs, etc. I see this as a deeproot pinball lego set of sorts where the designer operates within a predefined box of tools. So it seems that any “design” would be converted into something compatible with the stuff they already have.

#14325 12 months ago

I guarantee Mueller just has a cursory knowledge that Danesi made TNA on his own, took a look at it, said “yeah that seems simple to make”

They have twenty games in development. Their line should be plenty busy

17
#14326 12 months ago

I'm reminded of when Dutch Pinball came out brazenly at Expo 2014 and dissed Gary Stern for saying he was in the manufacturing business. They were proudly in the "pinball business" and he might as well make coffins.

Well, we've seen how well it works out for those who think they are in the "pinball business" instead of the manufacturing business.

#14327 12 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You don't (and it would drastically change the game).
You have a target beneath the Ned toy.
The Target moves, side to side, on both Versions.
The Ned Toy ABOVE, shakes when you hit the target, on the Xtra Edition.

Aha ok thanks for clearing up!

#14328 12 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

A thought...
How many times in your life have you seen anyone or an organization succeed by taking this approach to success?
iPhone maybe comes to mind? Even Steve jobs failed at Next computer and not many would doubt he was a genius.
So getting to my point, I would love to see RM succeed and every fairy princess pinball wish come true simultaneously. It would be awesome and great for the industry.
But if you sense some of us older blokes not drinking the cool-aid, it’s because we know that the doing-everything-all-at-once approach simply does not work (99% of the time).

The iphone is a bad example and actually proves your point. The iPOD predated the phone by over 5 years. Through several iterative revisions it was clear what Apple was going for... the last few years of iPod Touches were basically "final hashout" of the iPhone (minus the phone part, obviously).

Even the iPhone was not so inventive. There were several "MP3-player-PDA-Phones" available for a few years beforehand (just as there were "tablets" before the iPad). Apple just distilled the concept from the UI perspective, made the hardware pretty, and leveraged iTunes into the App store.

All of that is to say: even if you consider that the "iPhone" was Apple's end-game vision in 2001 (it wasn't), it still took 6 years to get there: vision often takes a backseat to R&D. And not everything Jobs/Apple touched turned to gold. So in that sense Deeproot could be "forgiven" so to speak.

BUT - and this is a huge but - Apple had multiple revenue streams, ways to leverage that R&D into revenue meanwhile (iPod then iTunes becomes iPhone then AppStore), and an established manufacturing foundation (computers, duh) long before the iPod.

TLDR; Deeproot is no Apple.

#14329 12 months ago

The iPhone launched by Jobs was a phone that also did other things. People barely use it as a phone these days. We're not living in his original vision of the iPhone any longer.

#14330 12 months ago

And again, Apple loves to show off their engineering designs and factory machines (just don’t ask about the people). They’d make a feature length film about milling a block of aluminum into a screw if they could.

People who build stuff take pride in building stuff.

#14331 12 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

A thought...
iPhone maybe comes to mind? Even Steve jobs failed at Next computer and not many would doubt he was a genius.

Failed? He sold that Next Fail to what became Apple for 450 plus Million dollars and 1.5 MILLION shares of Apple. I would call that a Billion dollar Win lol. Betting he didn’t see that as a fail.

#14332 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

If you read the Homebrew section closely, it mentions using existing tools and existing mechs, etc. I see this as a deeproot pinball lego set of sorts where the designer operates within a predefined box of tools. So it seems that any “design” would be converted into something compatible with the stuff they already have.

Which still takes an insane amount of time and resources. It is everything past “i drew out the geometry”.

It’s why everyone knows this is just crap grabbed out of the sky.

A real manufacturer would know the factory line should be their real constraint on making money. It is scheduled, and feeding it is an intensive game of scheduling and prep. Keeping it running at full speed is the goal.

If you have all these games baking in the oven... and just need to be completed... why would you derail your projects by introducing side efforts that compete with your already overcommitted resources?

It says one or more of the following:
1- they lack faith in their own projects
2- their own projects are vaporware
3- they have absolutely no one in manufacturing management
4- robert has not learned his lessons from his past mistakes about boasting before actually doing anything

If the factory line isn’t pumping out product you have nothing to sell and you make no revenue. It is literally the heart pump of your company. You don’t derail it by starving it or distracting it with product that you don’t make money on. Especially a business that is woefully behind!

Even with “octo” manufacturing you are still competing with space and manpower with the main products.

#14333 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

How is that stealing?
Most people don’t have any manufacturing ability.

Neither does Deeproot!!

QSS

#14334 12 months ago

No way. It will never happen. If you want to design a homebrew for DR, you'll have to use their framework.

Quoted from kermit24:

If you read the Homebrew section closely, it mentions using existing tools and existing mechs, etc. I see this as a deeproot pinball lego set of sorts where the designer operates within a predefined box of tools. So it seems that any “design” would be converted into something compatible with the stuff they already have.

#14335 12 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It says one or more of the following:
1- they lack faith in their own projects
2- their own projects are vaporware
3- they have absolutely no one in manufacturing management
4- robert has not learned his lessons from his past mistakes about boasting before actually doing anything

2 and 3 could be part of #5 - more blown smoke to keep investors thinking there is more upside here

#14336 12 months ago

Who is making the playfields for them? In house, or sub-contractor? I would imagine there is a lot of tribal knowledge to building a solid unpopulated playfield in house.

#14337 12 months ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

No way. It will never happen. If you want to design a homebrew for DR, you'll have to use their framework.

Thats what I thought I said. lol.

#14338 12 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Which still takes an insane amount of time and resources. It is everything past “i drew out the geometry”.
It’s why everyone knows this is just crap grabbed out of the sky.
A real manufacturer would know the factory line should be their real constraint on making money. It is scheduled, and feeding it is an intensive game of scheduling and prep. Keeping it running at full speed is the goal.
If you have all these games baking in the oven... and just need to be completed... why would you derail your projects by introducing side efforts that compete with your already overcommitted resources?
It says one or more of the following:
1- they lack faith in their own projects
2- their own projects are vaporware
3- they have absolutely no one in manufacturing management
4- robert has not learned his lessons from his past mistakes about boasting before actually doing anything
If the factory line isn’t pumping out product you have nothing to sell and you make no revenue. It is literally the heart pump of your company. You don’t derail it by starving it or distracting it with product that you don’t make money on. Especially a business that is woefully behind!
Even with “octo” manufacturing you are still competing with space and manpower with the main products.

All 100% correct. Homebrew is just another example of scope creep.

#14339 12 months ago

In the red corner - Foodtruck.

In the blue corner - Led Zep.

Ding, ding!

#14340 12 months ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Good thing for DR to do now would be to be more transparent and show some games getting built..
Need to build some customer confidence.

I completely agree but on the Pinball News Podcast the other night, Robert said the factory will not be shown due to manufacturing trade secrets.
(I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember his exact words)

#14341 12 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I completely agree but on the Pinball News Podcast the other night, Robert said the factory will not be shown due to manufacturing trade secrets.
(I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember his exact words)

Because it would be so easy for the other manufacturers to completely change how they do things.

13
#14342 12 months ago

Here's what I believe to be the deal with manufacturing:

In the interview, if you listen between the lines, they know RAZA is a dog. All they talk about is the system around it, what the next games are, and mostly the PinBar. Mentions how much work it was to get RAZA going (because John sold them a light diorama) and as for how many they will sell? 100? Maybe 200? Robert says. He doesn't know (who does?) but knows it won't be a lot. (This is the same guy who back in early 2015, without playing it, thought Magic Girl could sell 2800 units on looks alone. Note how often he says "beauty" in these videos)

Look, I'm sure RAZA is shootable. But it's pretty weak considering NINE YEARS of dev and the money deepRoot spent and their level of their ambition.

The 3 week sales window is so they know how much they have to hire up/ramp up for manufacturing starting in January.

Then the question becomes how close is their next game? A line is a beast that must be fed, so are they going to scale out the hiring to keep making RAZA until Food Truck is ready? When that bombs how close is Goonies to being ready?

#14343 12 months ago

I wonder how many people are owed more than one game by DR in the goodwill settlement...

#14344 12 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I wonder how many people are owed more than one game by DR in the goodwill settlement...

I don’t think it’s many. In the Jeff T interview Robert said they need to make a couple more people whole. Not sure what that means. I thought some had already taken cash.

12
#14345 12 months ago

I think I'd rather take my chances with Project Pinball Charity.

At least the odds of actually getting a game are better - only 1 in 200.

And it's only $50 and the money is going to a great spot.

#14346 12 months ago
Quoted from stantman:

Why would anybody interview this guy or care what he says? Do you actually believe any of it?

Still the same questions. Many of his early claims have since been proven false. Why would you believe the new ones? Won't he just say what he thinks you want to hear to get you to pay for a machine?

#14347 12 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

.... so are they going to scale out the hiring to keep making RAZA until Food Truck is ready? When that bombs how close is Goonies to being ready?

Their choice of themes is absolutely mind boggling - Food Truck, Old Testament....??

As you imply, Goonies is probably the only theme that could save them. Should have been their first release.

#14348 12 months ago
Quoted from Lounge:

Their choice of themes is absolutely mind boggling - Food Truck, Old Testament....??
As you imply, Goonies is probably the only theme that could save them. Should have been their first release.

At least get a license from PPS and call it Diner 2 instead of Food Truck. I don’t think that will save it however. Fire and Brimstone is a TERRIBLE idea. Sorry benheck

#14349 12 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Then the question becomes how close is their next game? A line is a beast that must be fed, so are they going to scale out the hiring to keep making RAZA until Food Truck is ready? When that bombs how close is Goonies to being ready?

It's amazing... I never would have thought Barry in his garage could outpace another 'real company'... but It would be a great bet to compare DP's weekly output in March to DRs

#14350 12 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's amazing... I never would have thought Barry in his garage could outpace another 'real company'... but It would be a great bet to compare DP's weekly output in March to DRs

Isn’t DP now just Barry and a couple helpers making a game a day?

There are 27,308 posts in this topic. You are on page 287 of 547.

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