Allyn, WA
how can the website still be down 90 minutes later? they are missing out on several orders.. i mean at least 3 right?
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Quoted from Jecco74:I wish pinside had a LOL button... What is "The Total Pinball Ownership Experience"?
As soon as the Deep Root web site is back up, I suggest you go there and find out.
"Today you are going to be hearing a lot about TPOE, the Total Pinball Ownership Experience. M'kay?"
You can always tell a company is innovative and poised for success depending on the amount of new acronyms they coin.
So I chatted with my local business reporter friend in San Antonio who had never heard of this company. After I recounted a few stories over the past few years, he and a few of his fellow reporters hit the ground running. They didn't know deeproot, but they knew of Robert Mueller and his legal reputation in San Antonio. They already started doing a deep dive into real estate records and SEC fillings to figure out what the deal is.
I'm not saying deeproot is doing anything illegal or to expect some deep hitting investigative piece. But it's nice when someone who's not into pinball agrees that something seems extremely weird from the outside.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:For the third time in 2 hours or so:
Code updates are free for 1 year.
To be fair, reading is harder than scrolling.
Ok, so just so I'm clear:
They want to order parts based on the number of non-refundable deposits they receive.
But we've not seen a hint of who or what is building these things?
Flensburg
I wish deeproot had 50 RAZAs (25 of each model) boxed and ready to go. Send it out, show people you are serious, and let the feedback come in so the next set can be slightly improved.
I'd be more inclined to trust and purchase said games if I knew units were being made. I have more confidence in TBL reaching my door than I do RAZA right now.
Quoted from frolic:Ok, so just so I'm clear:
They want to order parts based on the number of non-refundable deposits they receive.
But we've not seen a hint of who or what is building these things?
All the parts that havent been ordered that will surely arrive on time to a fully staffed and trained manufacturing line /s
I wish there website was still up to quote their manufacturing timeline. It's pretty great stuff. Borderline troll/satire
Quoted from Scandell:What makes it “elaborate”? Having a semblance of a production factory assembly line setup would make it “elaborate” certainly.
Anybody care to guess how many orders get placed in the next few weeks?
“Elaborate” meaning:
-The Website with the “Sizzle Reel” and all the other jumbo jumbo
-DeepRoot Studios (whatever)
-the whole DLC concept (pipedream)
-the 8 games in development (Food Truck!)
-the whole home brew contract manufacturing concept (they’ll make your game. Sure they will. Who makes theres? Lol’.).
-the “innovation”: The “Pinpod”. The “Pinbar”. “Pin Armour”. “Octo manufacturing”. Their revolutionary “design platform” that shortens game development to mere weeks. Ok.
-The limited ordering window FOMO BS (w/ pre-payment no less, but still no manufacturing info).
I’m sure Im forgetting plenty. They have concocted an elaborate image of a fully functioning, sophisticated company prepared to deliver the ultimate “pinball ownership experience”. But they haven’t done any more than Skip B (two guys in their mother’s basement) - build a couple prototypes. They miss deadline after deadline, including one where six mostly unknown podcasters with VIP passes were standing around rolling their eyes.
It’s either a scheme or the most fully realized “fake it till you make it” effort that the pinball world has ever seen. And remember, Heighway actually delivered TWO games, and Dutch delivered the Big Lebowski. There’s your benchmark.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I wish there website was still up to quote their manufacturing timeline. It's pretty great stuff. Borderline troll/satire
>from Deeproot's website>
Two factors will primarily affect quality and delivery for RAZA orders: early customer feedback and managing supply chain bumps. First, it is in all our best interests to use a slow and steady approach at the beginning. This is the only way to quickly refine and improve our product and line based on early customer feedback. Second, the pandemic has disrupted supply chains in every industry. As a new manufacturer, we still need to ensure our vendors can deliver consistent quality working components in the quoted lead times.
Ramp up for RAZA
As of the time of opening orders, nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic. Vendors face similar issues and lead times for metals, plastics, componentry and backlit panels are all unpredictable and much longer than pre-pandemic. Even prior to the pandemic many new pinball releases often took 4-6 weeks for manufacturing to ramp up after opening orders, and took months to fulfill all orders. Our RAZA run will be no different.
We plan to ramp up our lines in a slow, controlled manner using phases with a goal to finish and ship all RAZA orders in less than four months. The first three phases will only be games meeting UL certification for North America/Canada. As CE and other international certifications will still be ongoing, we will not ship international orders until the fourth phase at the earliest.
Phase 1: Approximately six weeks as the first games reach customers, with us alternating between Arcade and Xtra editions (backlit side panels being the primary delays for Xtra editions).
Phase 2: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 30.
Phase 3: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 40.
Phase 4: The balance of domestic orders and all International orders.
Sint-niklaas
I'm still amazed at how people are clamoring to buy it and at the same time say it's better than a Stern pro?
What's there to like? Almost no inserts, an incoherent theme, non proven hardware an incoherent playfield layout which really is a mixed bag of ideas...
Software seems to be pretty non existant if we're talking gameplay and stuff.
All kinds of subscription models? No thanks!
Even a Stern pro seems to have a higher BOM on the playfield and no I don't believe the Pinbar counts in the playfield BOM.
It should have never been there in the first place. If this is is supposed to be an arcade machine why do you recess a touchscreen flat so people can put drinks on it and spill them all over it? If they're so innovative why don't they use the new generation of touchscreens that aren't recessed at all?
A lot of head scratchers here! 
Quoted from frolic:Ok, so just so I'm clear:
They want to order parts based on the number of non-refundable deposits they receive.
But we've not seen a hint of who or what is building these things?
Maybe they should have just built the games they owed people and shipped those as their 'see we are real' confidence effort... then I'm sure they would have had people sending money.
They really can't think they can get away with 'collecting all orders first... then order parts' project plan.. even for their planned limited Raza project.
The hobby has shown people will buy almost anything... for someone so willing to burn money in his mission... shocking that RM can't figure out that games consistently going out the door is the biggest convincing factor for people willing to jump in.
Quoted from ufotofu:>from Deeproot's website>
Two factors will primarily affect quality and delivery for RAZA orders: early customer feedback and managing supply chain bumps. First, it is in all our best interests to use a slow and steady approach at the beginning. This is the only way to quickly refine and improve our product and line based on early customer feedback. Second, the pandemic has disrupted supply chains in every industry. As a new manufacturer, we still need to ensure our vendors can deliver consistent quality working components in the quoted lead times.
Ramp up for RAZA
As of the time of opening orders, nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic. Vendors face similar issues and lead times for metals, plastics, componentry and backlit panels are all unpredictable and much longer than pre-pandemic. Even prior to the pandemic many new pinball releases often took 4-6 weeks for manufacturing to ramp up after opening orders, and took months to fulfill all orders. Our RAZA run will be no different.
We plan to ramp up our lines in a slow, controlled manner using phases with a goal to finish and ship all RAZA orders in less than four months. The first three phases will only be games meeting UL certification for North America/Canada. As CE and other international certifications will still be ongoing, we will not ship international orders until the fourth phase at the earliest.
Phase 1: Approximately six weeks as the first games reach customers, with us alternating between Arcade and Xtra editions (backlit side panels being the primary delays for Xtra editions).
Phase 2: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 30.
Phase 3: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 40.
Phase 4: The balance of domestic orders and all International orders.
lol... this is the company that twice went to the last minute to cancel their launch... after swearing they would only launch with complete games ready to go. The curtain is down on just how unready they really were back then too.
Quoted from frolic:Ok, so just so I'm clear:
They want to order parts based on the number of non-refundable deposits they receive.
But we've not seen a hint of who or what is building these things?
I missed that. But yeah, that's what it says.
That also means that they won't even be ordering parts until the game purchase window closes.
Speedy delivery is assured!
Also, availability of replacement parts would seem to be a concern if this is how they roll.
Quoted from ufotofu:>from Deeproot's website>
nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic.
I can't and won't speak for other MFGs, but this was definitely not true in our case. We worked our butts off months in advance of the release of Heist, even as some of our overseas suppliers were shut down at the beginning of the pandemic, to ensure parts got to our factory in time to build and ship P3s and Heist playfields immediately upon release. We had playfields in customer hands the day of release and had a lot of playfields and machines ready to go home with customers at TPF (which was later cancelled).
Our backlog was entirely due to the volume of orders we received and the size of our assembly team. We successfully managed our supply chain throughout the pandemic.
If this is a pain point for other MFGs, please contact me. We have some really good relationships with quality vendors (we've paid our dues sifting through bad ones) and can leverage those relationships for mutual benefit.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from ThePinballCo-op:I wish deeproot had 50 RAZAs (25 of each model) boxed and ready to go. Send it out, show people you are serious, and let the feedback come in so the next set can be slightly improved.
I'd be more inclined to trust and purchase said games if I knew units were being made. I have more confidence in TBL reaching my door than I do RAZA right now.
Wish in one hand, sh*t in the other.
Quoted from ufotofu:This, in my opinion, is because Robert and his crack team of engineers completely failed to deliver on their absurd promises for PinArmor, so they're throwing it into the memory hole like all of their other promises (Five Days of Deeproot, one tier/price per game, no preorder money, "octo-assembly", Magic Girl on launch, shipping within two weeks of sale, etc, etc, etc). Remember, there were supposed to be videos of Robert hitting RAZA with a hammer, "Hammer Tested" shirts in everyone's closet, and a huge social media contest bashing other pinball companies for their inability to build playfields. Instead, they have a broken website for their order form asking you to pay $950 for a box.
Lets not forget my favorite one "a pinball for every home" "every home should have a pinball machine".... is this a game for every home??? lol RM is so out of touch with reality its almost insane.
Quoted from aeneas:After seeing the pinbox video and Robert saying they added a support so you can lift it with a dolly - I wonder if Robert or anyone else has ever tried it themselves ? Actually put a pinball machine in it and try to lift it (without help from someone else) with a dolly ?
Getting a pinball machine on a dolly and tipping it over its balance point is a challenge for me sometimes.
Put a huge box around the machine so the center of the weight is more out to the front, make the box much wider and taller without support for your hands ?
I have no idea how I could tip this thing on my dolly and if I would be able to roll around with it..
I would at least expect some holes to put my hands so I can pull it towards me..
Thats an upgrade!
Quoted from frolic:They want to order parts based on the number of non-refundable deposits they receive.
They picked a great time as the government is in the process of trying to pass a bill to send out more free money as we speak.
After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
12222 (resized).pngQuoted from Bingovit:I'm still amazed at how people are clamoring to buy it and at the same time say it's better than a Stern pro?
What's there to like? Almost no inserts, an incoherent theme, non proven hardware an incoherent playfield layout which really is a mixed bag of ideas...
Software seems to be pretty non existant if we're talking gameplay and stuff.
All kinds of subscription models? No thanks!
Even a Stern pro seems to have a higher BOM on the playfield and no I don't believe the Pinbar counts in the playfield BOM.
It should have never been there in the first place. If this is is supposed to be an arcade machine why do you recess a touchscreen flat so people can put drinks on it and spill them all over it? If they're so innovative why don't they use the new generation of touchscreens that aren't recessed at all?
A lot of head scratchers here!
There is enough to not like that you won‘t need to make stuff up.
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
Somebody has to go first. We've been ripping on Deeproot a while but I really do hope they succeed. I hope you enjoy your new pin!
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
Oh man, goodluck.
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
I wouldn't, but I sincerely hope this works out well and you get great games quickly.
Quoted from TreyBo69:he and a few of his fellow reporters hit the ground running... they knew of Robert Mueller and his legal reputation in San Antonio. They already started doing a deep dive into real estate records and SEC fillings to figure out what the deal is.
will a classic 'pulling back the curtain' expose spell the end of this never-ending saga ?? you know, the kind of 'reveal' people can really get excited about when its done right.
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
While being generally positive I‘d not pay full in advance but hope your trust will be rewarded.
I like what they‘re doing (mostly) and it‘s plain economy that they now need to collect money to get their business up snd running, if they don‘t have further investment.
That said I hope they don‘t mismanage that, where I still see... ‚potential‘.
Anyways, thanks for doing the leap of faith for us.
They've floated this company for years without bringing in preorder money. They said years ago they plan to not use the model. Why can't they start production without new money?
We all know the reason...
a) they need money
b) they need time
c) they need anything positive to show an investor
d) all the above
Quoted from ThePinballCo-op:Unpopular opinion: I wanna buy this game. Just analyzing the game itself, I love the features it has, and the value per $ spent. If Stern came out with this game and 5900 starting price point, I think it would be an instant best seller. Part of me wants this to be a success because of all the added features it has for the price advertised, maybe forcing Stern to match? If deeproot has success here, maybe they will continue to crank out more titles at a similar price point.
However, deeproot hasn't been up front and honest the entire time as far as I can tell. I don't know the history of this company as well as others, but this is the feeling I get reading these comments. They have people in their business model who we can't trust based on historical events. I've seen the words "crook" and "thief" a few times. Not good.
So I'm pretty torn. Do I put $600 down on an Ae and just "wait and see"?
If I'm out $600 I won't cry over it, and I'll get what I think is a sweet game in return... or will it be?
Will I have to pay extra for code updates?
Will the game not ship for a calendar year or longer?
Am I going to be hated for "supporting" this company by buying their product?
Torn....
Go for it! Its not like there are a million shining examples of why you should not in this very thread. If that hasnt convinced you, nobody or nothing will.
From the "Legal" section of the website
Payment
deeproot will automatically charge on a recurring basis the fee for the subscription plan you choose, including any applicable taxes, to the payment method associated with your Account. You can change your subscription at any time by accessing your Account. The applicable fee for an upgraded subscription will take effect immediately however a downgraded subscription will take effect upon expiration of the previously paid for subscription. If deeproot is unable to successfully charge your credit card or does not receive payment for fees due, deeproot reserves the right to restrict access to the Online Services and any User Submissions, delete your User Submissions, or terminate your Account.
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
Congrats to you and the other proud RAZA owners!! I have a feeling this he gonna be awesome!
Quoted from DS_Nadine:While being generally positive I‘d not pay full in advance but hope your trust will be rewarded.
You are weak.
The Total Pinball Ownership Experience is for the strong.
I’m disappointed in you.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:While being generally positive I‘d not pay full in advance but hope your trust will be rewarded.
I like what they‘re doing (mostly) and it‘s plain economy that they now need to collect money to get their business up snd running, if they don‘t have further investment.
That said I hope they don‘t mismanage that, where I still see... ‚potential‘.
Anyways, thanks for doing the leap of faith for us.
Yeah I guess it could be dangerous to trust and pay but you have to take the leap to play. Having them both on the AMEX helps my comfort a bit though... With that said, a simple call yesterday and talked to Robert. Life is a gamble but he seemed confident in his team and making this happen so its worth the gamble for me as I truly enjoy the hobby. I have supported companies with much less foundation and resources. Time will tell. When (if) the games arrive our arcade (home) is open to any fan of the hobby to give the game a spin. Just PM.
Quoted from Yelobird:With that said, a simple call yesterday and talked to Robert.
Did you happen to ask Robert about the User Subscription Fee and what all is involved with that? I'm confused on exactly what that fee buys for your game and how it works.
Thanks
Quoted from Yelobird:he seemed confident in his team and making this happen...
At least this one thing has been consistent for Deeproot, no doubt.
Quoted from Mr68:Did you happen to ask Robert about the User Subscription Fee and what all is involved with that? I'm confused on exactly what that fee buys for your game and how it works.
Thanks
this. i want to know this before even thinking about it....
Quoted from Yelobird:After talking to Robert yesterday I am happy to support a new pinball era. A gamble yes but I enjoy the game and this new direction appeals to me so we now proudly have (2) Xtra Editions on order paid in full. (one for a local collector I'm not greedy...) Looking forward to this new pinball adventure.
[quoted image]
Your nuts dude. Good luck.
Quoted from Lounge:Interesting that wrb1977 hasn’t chimed in yet.
Too busy typing in his credit card info I'm sure.
This thing is limited edition and only 2 weeks to order. Better get your non-refundable or paid in full orders in NOW if you don't want to be left behind!
I'd be in for one myself but I can't afford it. Considering putting in a pre-order on a Pinpod and a Screen Protector though.
Quoted from Yelobird:Yeah I guess it could be dangerous to trust and pay but you have to take the leap to play. Having them both on the AMEX helps my comfort a bit though... With that said, a simple call yesterday and talked to Robert. Life is a gamble but he seemed confident in his team and making this happen so its worth the gamble for me as I truly enjoy the hobby. I have supported companies with much less foundation and resources. Time will tell. When (if) the games arrive our arcade (home) is open to any fan of the hobby to give the game a spin. Just PM.
No you dont. You can buy when its on the showroom floor, no need to take a leap. I cant believe he actually got people to pre-order after all this. Man, he is smooooth or pin enthusiasts are truly the biggest suckers out there.
Quoted from Roostking:No you dont. You can buy when its on the showroom floor, no need to take a leap. I cant believe he actually got people to pre-order after all this. Man, he is smooooth or pin enthusiasts are truly the biggest suckers out there.
People are free to do what they want with their money so I don't begrudge the Yellobird. I've made a number of questionable pandemic purchases myself, including a $2,000 antique art deco lamp.
I don't know that I'd announce it publicly though, unless he's angling for a possible gold medal in the 2021 Point and Laugh Olympics.
Quoted from Lounge:Interesting that wrb1977 hasn’t chimed in yet.
...maybe cut the guy some slack. I always appreciate an opposing view and I thought wrb1977 always presented his thoughts in a respectful way. And given some of the recent developments he's probably reassessing his position. Nothing wrong with that.
Quoted from Yelobird:Yeah I guess it could be dangerous to trust and pay but you have to take the leap to play. Having them both on the AMEX helps my comfort a bit though... With that said, a simple call yesterday and talked to Robert. Life is a gamble but he seemed confident in his team and making this happen so its worth the gamble for me as I truly enjoy the hobby. I have supported companies with much less foundation and resources. Time will tell. When (if) the games arrive our arcade (home) is open to any fan of the hobby to give the game a spin. Just PM.
You are a much more trusting person than me!
Can I ask, Why would you not wait until there is a physical game available and buy it then? Guaranteed return on your investment. With all the bad reviews on this thread and with so many people being ripped off last time, no assembly line that anyone has seen and arrogance from RM. Right now you have joined the queue with the others waiting with nothing to show for your money.
Quoted from Mr68:...maybe cut the guy some slack. I always appreciate an opposing view and I thought wrb1977 always presented his thoughts in a respectful way. And given some of the recent developments he's probably reassessing his position. Nothing wrong with that.
He downvoted everything negative in this thread and now that they’re “releasing” something he’s mute.... sure, I’ll cut him some slack.
Quoted from Lounge:He downvoted everything negative in this thread and now that they’re “releasing” something he’s mute.... sure, I’ll cut him some slack.
There is a fine difference between "everything negative" and "behaving like dick riding a dead horse while making additional stuff up to stir the shitfest".
There is also a massive difference between "negative" and "critical".
Quoted from DS_Nadine:There is also a massive difference between "negative" and "critical".
I wouldn’t exactly say there’s that much of a difference regarding this topic and the way DR has handled things. But I’ll leave that as a matter of opinion.
Quoted from Lounge:I wouldn’t exactly say there’s that much of a difference regarding this topic and the way DR has handled things. But I’ll leave that as a matter of opinion.
There is, therefore the downvotes.
Also the thread is quite civilized if you mute about 5 people. 
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