(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#1351 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

3d 16k displays that are the exact same dimensions of a current machine (with all the little physical/audible physical idiosyncrasies we all love), the ability to play games with limitless possibilities (like an actual TRex running across the playfield), never a need to make a repair, hundreds of games on one machine, the ability to play in real time against anyone in the world, Pinburgh 118 with 16,000 players. I'm not talking about next year but 10, 20, 30 years from now?

It's awesome to dream, and I invite you to continue dreaming. We need more dreamers. If you're making an actual product, though, it'd better be anchored to something that is actually possible /now/.

Screen resolution isn't the issue. We need two inputs to see in 3D - left eye, right eye. That's why you'll probably always need goggles or glasses. You'll /still/ need a cabinet.

Maybe someday we will have cheap, lightweight glasses that can paint pixels right on our retinas with no latency and at the same resolution we see the world in. That's a hell of a big maybe, my friend.

Or maybe someday we'll have direct neural input, then we wouldn't need a cabinet. That's an even bigger maybe. A colossal maybe.

Quoted from Rondogg:

A hundred+ years ago there were men who refused to ever buy a car saying a horse was the real way to travel, now there are men who say that driverless cars are foolish. You honestly think that people born in a hundred years will be in anything but self driving vehicles?

Indeed, I've been an early adopter all my life and continue to be one. I've been ridiculed (hell, even here) for being an early adopter by 'those people.'

Quoted from Rondogg:

To answer your question, no, we don't need or want to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table. I'm just saying that you should have an open mind, at some point (maybe in years or decades) there might be a reason to enjoy both.

Your comparison isn't apples-to-apples. There is a real need for autonomous vehicles and technology that looks promising; a product that nearly everyone would use. Virtual pinball is a niche of a niche of a niche. It's an expensive solution without a problem.

#1352 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

It's awesome to dream, and I invite you to continue dreaming. We need more dreamers. If you're making an actual product, though, it'd better be anchored to something that is actually possible /now/.
Screen resolution isn't the issue. We need two inputs to see in 3D - left eye, right eye. That's why you'll probably always need goggles or glasses. You'll /still/ need a cabinet.
Maybe someday we will have cheap, lightweight glasses that can paint pixels right on our retinas with no latency and at the same resolution we see the world in. That's a hell of a big maybe, my friend.
Or maybe someday we'll have direct neural input, then we wouldn't need a cabinet. That's an even bigger maybe. A colossal maybe.

Indeed, I've been an early adopter all my life and continue to be one. I've been ridiculed (hell, even here) for being an early adopter by 'those people.'

Your comparison isn't apples-to-apples. There is a real need for autonomous vehicles and technology that looks promising; a product that nearly everyone would use. Virtual pinball is a niche of a niche of a niche. It's an expensive solution without a problem.

It's the apples to oranges scenarios that these guys are throwing out. 8 track to cassette to CD is apples to apples. Mechanical vs virtual is not the same in terms of advancement and progression.

#1353 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

There is a real need for autonomous vehicles .

I agree wholeheartedly. Because in the unlikely event the kids do finally get a job, I want them to be able to play video games to and from the office.

Of course in 15 years it will be illegal to drive anyway.

Yes, Get off MY F#@%%#ing lawn!!!

#1354 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Screen resolution isn't the issue. We need two inputs to see in 3D - left eye, right eye. That's why you'll probably always need goggles or glasses. You'll /still/ need a cabinet.

Yes, you will still have a cabinet and all the physical feelings/sounds from a cabinet. Inside the cabinet would be an 8k (or even better) resolution screen with real time head tracking capability to simulate 3d.

Look, I get that it is hard to imagine but just look where the tech was just 10 or 20 years ago and project where it's heading, what people/companies are working on to get to simulations much more complex than a pinball machine.

It will start with young people (as it usually does) and early adopters who see a benefit in having a maintenance free single machine they can play with their friends all over the world. There will always be a place for real pinball, just as there will always be a place for EM or even prewar collectors. Nobody will ask you to give up your machine or to stop loving physical pinball.

#1355 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Yes, you will still have a cabinet and all the physical feelings/sounds from a cabinet.

I still don’t know how you’re going to duplicate the vibration of big solenoids moving around, or the vibrations of the other mechanical elements, because otherwise that big cabinet is going to feel dead.

But let’s say you do.

You have a very heavy cabinet that responds to nudging, and magically simulates mechanical vibrations without moving parts. Say there’s a monitor and a GPU that renders effectively identical to reality. Let’s say that in a magical future we figure out how to do notoriously finicky head tracking without a headset/goggles, maybe just with a few good cameras, a lot of processing power and great software.

But... it’s literally impossible to make head tracking work for multiple people at once, so any observer will have an awkward 2d experience that will be strange and disorienting. If these machines are side by side the movement will be extraordinarily distracting, because the whole playfield will appear to move with the head movements of the player. So you can forget about this working in a bar/arcade.

Now I don’t doubt that dedicated hobby programmers will spend cumulative lifetimes making these systems get closer and closer to reality. So sure, someday I suppose, you’ll be able to assemble something that looks a lot like pinball, but just like flight sims and racing sims, reality will be missing. It will be obviously missing, and that will be why people won’t spend money on them in the volumes required to sustain a real business.

#1356 1 year ago

Have any of you guys played a Nintendo 3DS? It's a very small screen and you play it much closer to your eyes, but it does track your eyes the the upper screen renders in 3D without the need for goggles or headset. Other people can watch the screen and it's not completely distorted, they just can't see the 3D effect.

#1357 1 year ago

The view of the spectator now? Look, I don't have all the answers for how they're going to do it. And no, I don't think it will ever fool anyone into thinking they are playing a Wms DMD machine. If that is your requirement, to have an exact duplication of what already exists then you are already too wedded to the existing experience to ever appreciate something new. And that's ok, there is seriously nothing wrong with that.

What I'm saying is that the technology will get so good that the advantages it poses (as outlined earlier) will be adopted and appreciated by a lot of people, and make the proliferation of pinball grow to more than just niche hobby.

#1358 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

What I'm saying is that the technology will get so good that the advantages it poses (as outlined earlier) will be adopted and appreciated by a lot of people, and make the proliferation of pinball grow to more than just niche hobby.

This... there are plenty of audiophiles that swear their $10k stereo system with the antique record player is superior to everything out there, or the flip of the coin of song collectors that swear they can tell the difference between a FLAC file and a 320kbps mp3 file... Then there's the 95% rest of the population that's perfectly ok with 128kbps mp3's, or streaming music through the dozens of services. You can make this comparison with nearly anything
Live concert vs watching HD video later on youtube
Driving a bugatti vs playing a simulator on a high end gaming PC with 3 monitors all mounted to a hydraulic chair to give you G's
Actually going to outer space via virgin to feel weightless vs going on a plane that nosedives to feel "weightless" for 45 seconds
Actually skydiving vs going to one of those giant fan skydiving places

Nobody will ever claim digital pinball will replace the real thing, but I bet a big portion of the population might gladly fork over $5k for a REALLY good pinball simulator (not virtuapin, I'm talking 4k HD, head tracking for 3d, coils that fire when you hit the flippers so you feel it, nudging that really bumps the ball realistically) if I only had to pay say $10 per table (like pinball arcade on steroids), especially if you're someone in an apartment in the city and can't spare the space. Or you fear getting into the hobby because you fear it'll break and you don't know how to fix it (and you can't afford to keep paying a tech to fix it, if there's even one nearby). Or you're someone like me that can't afford the latest Stern (and keep them all because of cost and space), but it would be nice to be able to play any of them.

#1359 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Really the end goal should be to remove everything mechanical and simulate the game with a high-quality 3D 4K LCD glass.

Quoted from benheck:

The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Nobody will ever claim digital pinball will replace the real thing

#1360 1 year ago

You could have a pair of solenoids inside the virtual pin to give flipper feel. Perhaps a third as a general purpose knocker. Accelerators could feel nudges and also act as a tilt bob.

Then probably some higher resolution haptic feedback motors (near the flipper buttons) to simulate things such as the feel of ball roll or impact.

Pinball isn't skydiving, car racing or sex. It's a person watching a ball roll around under glass while they feel and hear the vibrations of mechanics.

"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

#1361 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

One part of the "magic" of pinball is to watch (real) physics in action,... and tricking it with loops, magnets, VUKs, backkickers and stuff.

And I personally can't stand Zen Pinball for exactly that reason.

So like you say it has to at least "feel" possible (for me).

#1362 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

You could have a pair of solenoids inside the virtual pin to give flipper feel. Perhaps a third as a general purpose knocker. Accelerators could feel nudges and also act as a tilt bob.
Then probably some higher resolution haptic feedback motors (near the flipper buttons) to simulate things such as the feel of ball roll or impact.
Pinball isn't skydiving, car racing or sex. It's a person watching a ball roll around under glass while they feel and hear the vibrations of mechanics.
"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

I have real flipper mechs, real sling mechs and real pop bumper mechs (along with chimes and a bell and a knocker) in my virtual cab. Oh, and an accelerometer for nudging and a tilt bob for tilts. It all definitely all adds to the effect but it still has a ways to go for total immersion, 3d and head tracking big amongst them. I enjoy it for what it is, definitely nice to be able to play all the machines that I don't get to play very often and will likely never own. To me it is a wonderful addition to a small collection. Then there is a whole other side to the hobby in creating your own tables, or recreating real ones and all the coding and art and everything else that goes along with it. It's all fun.

#1363 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Zombie Yeti being snarky:[quoted image]

Good for him, it's been a hell a ride!

#1364 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I like watching that video in a loop. One of the few that think HP's swappable concept was the right way to go. Not having spare parts to plug in was its downfall. That was exasperated by extreme underfunding of the company. Wishing someone else would give it a go.

It wasn't "extremely underfunded".

It was extremely badly (criminally) managed with colossal wastage.

#1365 1 year ago

Is octo manufacturing a reference to them getting the UFC pinball license?

#1366 1 year ago

Dunno if this has been discussed, but I wonder if Norris' machine (which he says will be at TPF) is going to be something to do with his Wizard's Arcade / Golden Cue project.

I saw a link to some FB posts of his, recently, and he was working on Wizard's Arcade immediately before he was hired by DeepRoot.

He also appears to have collaborated with or helped JPop to some degree with the original Houdini design or art (now apparently scrapped by DR).

#1367 1 year ago

If you haven't listened already, Dennis Nordman talks about his career plus how things are going well at deeproot. Though it is a paycheck, he seems like a genuine guy (hence why he quit heighway when false promises were made, which he also brings up).
http://www.head2headpinball.com/2018/08/06/episode-55-dennis-nordman-and-the-curse-of-elvira

#1368 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

If you haven't listened already, Dennis Nordman talks about his career plus how things are going well at deeproot. Though it is a paycheck, he seems like a genuine guy (hence why he quit heighway when false promises were made, which he also brings up).
http://www.head2headpinball.com/2018/08/06/episode-55-dennis-nordman-and-the-curse-of-elvira

Dennis is one of the nicest guys I have had an opportunity to meet in this hobby. It's great to hear things are going well for him.

#1369 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So like you say it has to at least "feel" possible (for me).

As Ben mentioned, there are a lot of physically possible mechanisms that are just too expensive. But, there are also a lot of normal things that can be done in virtual pinball that are not possible on a real game due to interference under the playfield. For example, in virtual pinball you don't have to worry about a lamp interfering with a coil or bracket.

#1370 1 year ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

As Ben mentioned, there are a lot of physically possible mechanisms that are just too expensive. But, there are also a lot of normal things that can be done in virtual pinball that are not possible on a real game due to interference under the playfield. For example, in virtual pinball you don't have to worry about a lamp interfering with a coil or bracket.

Why hasn't anyone come up with a flush mounted LED insert and shallow trenches for the wires for those tough, busy mech areas?

#1371 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Why hasn't anyone come up with a flush mounted LED insert and shallow trenches for the wires for those tough, busy mech areas?

Excellent question. I see no reason a side-lit insert couldn't be built that would avoid the mechanisms.

That was just an example though. A kicker behind a set of drop targets might be a more challenging example.

#1372 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Why hasn't anyone come up with a flush mounted LED insert and shallow trenches for the wires for those tough, busy mech areas?

I'm doing a layout that does exactly that.. effectively there is a playfield layer (3/8), and a 1/8" layer that is just LED's and wire traces. Granted I still can't have mechs going through wire traces, but it at least eliminates all those bulky bayonet brackets and makes the bottom very clean. Theoretically it would also eliminate EMF keeping the lighting wiring away from coil lines.

#1373 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Yes, you will still have a cabinet and all the physical feelings/sounds from a cabinet. Inside the cabinet would be an 8k (or even better) resolution screen with real time head tracking capability to simulate 3d.
Look, I get that it is hard to imagine but just look where the tech was just 10 or 20 years ago and project where it's heading, what people/companies are working on to get to simulations much more complex than a pinball machine.
It will start with young people (as it usually does) and early adopters who see a benefit in having a maintenance free single machine they can play with their friends all over the world. There will always be a place for real pinball, just as there will always be a place for EM or even prewar collectors. Nobody will ask you to give up your machine or to stop loving physical pinball.

Young people don't have the $$$ it's going to take to buy one of these.

#1374 1 year ago


I hear about pinball people going there. Well known designers, engineers etc too. But these underlings are not seen or heard from again. Add to that we've seen no products. What is really going on inside that building?? Not even day 1 of deeproot. Is Robert washing brains and reprogramming his believers?

IMG_0503 (resized).PNG
#1375 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

could deeproot be a cult?

I hear about all these pinball people going there. Designers, engineers etc all go, but then are not seen from again. Add that we've seen no products. What is really going in there?? Not even day 1 of deeproot. Is Robert washing their brains and reprogramming it's followers?

Their website is chock full of information for inquiring minds that would like to know.

http://deeprootpinball.com/

#1376 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Their website is chock full of information for inquiring minds that would like to know.
http://deeprootpinball.com/

hahahaha at first glance nada.

... but click on W and you enter another world. You gleen few tidbits like there are 31 members and their titles. deeproot is looking to bring on three more people per posted ads. I've learned nothing about what the company really does yet. Yeah you can even send in your resume if you would like an invite to join the club.

#1377 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
could deeproot be a cult?
I hear about pinball people going there. Well known designers, engineers etc too. But then are not seen from again. Add to that we've seen no products. What is really going on inside that building?? Not even day 1 of deeproot. Is Robert washing brains and reprogramming his believers?

good lord! are these the people in that cult that torture squirrels?

#1378 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

could deeproot be a cult?

What is really going on inside that building??
Is Robert washing brains and reprogramming his believers?

how many wives does he have?
whats the real reason behind making bible themed pins?

im sure robert doesnt appreciate being lumped together with the likes of david koresh, even if waco is only 180 miles from san antonio.

#1379 1 year ago

Am I sensing a positive opinion shift for Deeproot on Pinside??

seinfeld1 (resized).jpg

#1380 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Am I sensing a positive opinion shift for Deeproot on Pinside??

Yes, as they do have a functional website, and that is one of the most important things pinsiders need to give them confidence in any company.

#1381 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Yes, as they do have a functional website, and that is one of the most important things pinsiders need to give them confidence in any company.

#1382 1 year ago

Robert needs to show more work, less talk. At this point, he sounds like a stereotypical used car salesman huckster.

#1383 1 year ago

Deeproot!

1 week later
#1384 1 year ago

Tits

Screenshot_2018-08-23-18-07-05-1 (resized).png
#1385 1 year ago

I think after the three year drought since Whoa Nellie, and the many years before, that is what most of us are hoping for.

#1386 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

I think after the three year drought since Whoa Nellie, and the many years before, that is what most of us are hoping for.

You are forgetting Alien, Lexi Lightspeed, and Elvira 3.

#1387 1 year ago

My memory certainly isn't what it used to be.

But we want more!

13
#1388 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

My memory certainly isn't what it used to be.

But we want more!

Neither is mine! But no more tits, after Whoa Nellie I'm scared of tits.

#1389 1 year ago

Small world. I’m redoing a Will and Trust Robert did back in 2004 for a new client that came in today

I told him he needs to look into the pinball hobby

#1390 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisNordman:

Neither is mine! But no more tits, after Whoa Nellie I'm scared of tits.

Come back to us Dennis. (:
IMG_3486 (resized).jpeg
great (resized).jpg

#1391 1 year ago

How many times is Odin going to complain about G rated pins this week?

#1392 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

How many times is Odin going to complain about G rated pins this week?

I bet your mommy won't even let you go see a PG movie.

#1394 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisNordman:

Neither is mine! But no more tits, after Whoa Nellie I'm scared of tits.

More tits please.

#1395 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

More tits please.

Yes please.

All of that old beautiful art was loaded with them.

#1396 1 year ago

Anyone else wanna upvote those sentiments but they’re worried about judgment and lectures in the current climate?

#1397 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

I bet your mommy won't even let you go see a PG movie.

I'm not the one who has Pinside tantrums.

#1399 1 year ago

I love fantasy type themes i really enjoy them. Nothing wrong with beautiful body forms and cool themes.

17
#1400 1 year ago

Why does everyone want to see Dennis Nordman's tits?

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