Quoted from benheck:Really the end goal should be to remove everything mechanical and simulate the game with a high-quality 3D 4K LCD glass.
Use head tracking to change perspective on the fly.
Please God, no!
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Quoted from benheck:Really the end goal should be to remove everything mechanical and simulate the game with a high-quality 3D 4K LCD glass.
Use head tracking to change perspective on the fly.
Please tell me you're joking.
Allyn, WA
Quoted from Brijam:Please tell me you're joking.
he's not. using head tracking means it creates a 3d effect on a flat screen (and 4k HD you wouldn't be able to tell the difference). It would mean zero maintenance, there would be very low cost (think about how cheap big TV's have gotten). I know nothing beats real, but some people really enjoy car simulators because they'll never afford a $300k exotic car.
Quoted from toyotaboy:you wouldn't be able to tell the difference
Yes. I would.
Virtual pinball is OK for what it is, but I'll stick with a real, physical ball.
Quoted from RCA1:Virtual pinball is OK for what it is, but I'll stick with a real, physical ball.
Agreed. Where is the 1/2 MV*V? Momentum in the real world is what makes pinball.
Hah, you thought doing content for a relatively small LCD involved more work, expand that to a playfield sized LCD with full physics engine and stuff.
Good luck generating the content to make that compelling without AAA game studio size staff and talent, even if you leverage unity.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Hah, you thought doing content for a relatively small LCD involved more work, expand that to a playfield sized LCD with full physics engine and stuff.
Good luck generating the content to make that compelling without AAA game studio size staff and talent, even if you leverage unity.
you need to go over to gopinball.com, those first 2 original titles were created by one or two guys, for free. once the engine is made, its not that terrible laying out a design (code is still hard). go look at the stranger things future pinball table, thats definately one guy.
I play virtual pinball when I go to shows and it is getting better and better, but it is still far from the real pinball experience. Miles from the real pinball experience. Fact is though, in 10 years virtual pinball may be basically indistinguishable from the real thing with a lot more upside. It may even be sooner than that. No doubt there will be a lot of old men railing about "real pinball" but those were the same guys who complained about automatic transmissions, smartphones and digital music. They eventually convert or just get marginalized, screaming bs in a corner somewhere.
The truth about our hobby is that it will never be much more than a niche interest until machines are less expensive and maintenance free - virtual pinball will eventually solve those problems. For now though, I prefer the real thing but I'm open minded and excited about the future.
Quoted from toyotaboy:<snip> some people really enjoy car simulators because they'll never afford a $300k exotic car.
I virtual pinball is fun and all. But, I think you summed it up; It's a simulation, not the real deal. So, while virtual pinball has its place, it is not a replacement.
Quoted from Brijam:Please tell me you're joking.
Oh I'm dead serious.
Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.
Quoted from Rondogg:No doubt there will be a lot of old men railing about "real pinball" but those were the same guys who complained about automatic transmissions, smartphones and digital music. They eventually convert or just get marginalized, screaming bs in a corner somewhere.
"By cracky!" Funny, all my vehicles have manual transmissions...
I see Virtual Pinball happening - because it can. To me it is a move towards pachinko, not a move forward. Each remove something.
OK, time to go back to the corner and scream more BS and wait for marginalization ( - :
Quoted from Rondogg:I play virtual pinball when I go to shows and it is getting better and better, but it is still far from the real pinball experience. Miles from the real pinball experience. Fact is though, in 10 years virtual pinball may be basically indistinguishable from the real thing with a lot more upside. It may even be sooner than that. No doubt there will be a lot of old men railing about "real pinball" but those were the same guys who complained about automatic transmissions, smartphones and digital music. They eventually convert or just get marginalized, screaming bs in a corner somewhere.
The truth about our hobby is that it will never be much more than a niche interest until machines are less expensive and maintenance free - virtual pinball will eventually solve those problems. For now though, I prefer the real thing but I'm open minded and excited about the future.
Yes and in 2001 we will travel space with a virtual AI bent on killing us.
I’m a hardcore tech guy. And use simulators extensively for my other hobby (flying RC helicopters at a competitive level).
It’s just not going to happen. Because reality isn’t easily replaced.
Quoted from benheck:Oh I'm dead serious.
Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.
Why go this route versus VR pinball? I am not a big virtual pinball cheerleader, but of anything virtual I've played, Pinball FX2 VR (which I play on my Playstation VR) is the best so far (in my opinion). The tables look great, the effects going on around the table are quirky and fun, and to me it feels the most like real pinball. I have to imagine VR pinball would be way cheaper than head tracked virtual pinball with 3D glass...
Quoted from brucipher:Why go this route versus VR pinball? I am not a big virtual pinball cheerleader, but of anything virtual I've played, Pinball FX2 VR (which I play on my Playstation VR) is the best so far (in my opinion). The tables look great, the effects going on around the table are quirky and fun, and to me it feels the most like real pinball. I have to imagine VR pinball would be way cheaper than head tracked virtual pinball with 3D glass...
Having to put anything on your head is lame. That's why VR never really took off.
Everyone on this forum whines about "getting young people into pinball" so the hobby doesn't die when you all get old and sell your shit to move to Florida.
Well pin prices are going through the roof while LCD prices are dropping through the floor. Maybe the latter is the solution?
No item ever became mass market by increasing the price. Well... Except Apple.
Reading through all of this but,
I do not like my phone to have to do anything with my pinball. Ever.
I just don't like it. So any selling point on an app for my phone? Pass.
It's just my opinion.
Dialed in is a fun game but any integration beyond the sound in my ears and the flippers on my fingers. Is not my thing I guess. My opinion.
There are many other ways to improve pinball or innovate. Again, my opinion.
I threw this out here because I am just one person. But if I feel so strongly I guess others might.
My thoughts are why bother with all the outside, but the game itself should shine shine shine.
Quoted from Azmodeus:Reading through all of this but,
I do not like my phone to have to do anything with my pinball. Ever.
I just don't like it. So any selling point on an app for my phone? Pass.
I don't want to control a pinball machine with my phone, and I see very little value in using it as an additional display.
What WOULD add value is an app that could auto-load my initials / nickname at game start; at the end of the game, the machine sends all my gameplay data to the phone. My score, the score for each ball, total play time, play time per ball, game features started / completed, # of balls to complete feature, the list could go on. I could compare my last game to what I had done in the past and see what the trends are. That information could then be shared and compared among the friends I trust.
I'm sure people in selfie leagues could make use of that.
Quoted from Rondogg:I play virtual pinball when I go to shows and it is getting better and better, but it is still far from the real pinball experience. Miles from the real pinball experience. Fact is though, in 10 years virtual pinball may be basically indistinguishable from the real thing with a lot more upside. It may even be sooner than that. No doubt there will be a lot of old men railing about "real pinball" but those were the same guys who complained about automatic transmissions, smartphones and digital music. They eventually convert or just get marginalized, screaming bs in a corner somewhere.
The truth about our hobby is that it will never be much more than a niche interest until machines are less expensive and maintenance free - virtual pinball will eventually solve those problems. For now though, I prefer the real thing but I'm open minded and excited about the future.
That is a complete nonsense comparison. All three of your examples are extensions of the original item. A digital pinball game is not an extension of Pinball. It's simply a video game mimicking pinball.
However, you will eventually get over this video pinball fantasy....... or be marginalized screaming BS to your fellow Millennials.
Quoted from Azmodeus:Dialed in is a fun game but any integration beyond the sound in my ears and the flippers on my fingers. Is not my thing I guess. My opinion.
I saw the Pinball Amigos pinballrockstar play DI with their phones at the end of one session, they were way lit as it should be ( - :
Quoted from toyotaboy:you need to go over to gopinball.com, those first 2 original titles were created by one or two guys, for free. once the engine is made, its not that terrible laying out a design (code is still hard). go look at the stranger things future pinball table, thats definately one guy.
Looks great ... especially the array of LEDs he's got in the cab. But I don't think fully virtual pinball is going to replace physical stuff any time soon.
Best chance of superseding it is a hybrid like P3 some time further into the future ... especially in 20-25 years if real holographic screens are available and cheap enough to be ubiquitous. Then, it'd almost be a necessity.
Not to mention VR makes a significant percentage of the population nauseous. Our monkey brain thinks we just ate some bad mushrooms when we see shit that does not compute.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from toyotaboy:Zombie Yeti being snarky:[quoted image]
Hopefully they put a better amp and speakers in Deadpool.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Could you honestly discuss this somewhere else?
Danke.
Quoted from Freshmaker:I don't want to control a pinball machine with my phone, and I see very little value in using it as an additional display.
What WOULD add value is an app that could auto-load my initials / nickname at game start; at the end of the game, the machine sends all my gameplay data to the phone. My score, the score for each ball, total play time, play time per ball, game features started / completed, # of balls to complete feature, the list could go on. I could compare my last game to what I had done in the past and see what the trends are. That information could then be shared and compared among the friends I trust.
I'm sure people in selfie leagues could make use of that.
Now that’s innovation! With Data analytics/IoT being all the rage right now, there is no reason this can’t be done. Perhaps Deeproot are implementing it as we speak. I just wish there could be also be diagnostic data streamed to your smartphone app to pinpoint issues.
AIW is the machine I am looking forward to. It would be nice to know what the price point will be. Games that start at $9K and up might be difficult to sell even if they are innovative and the coolest thing since sliced bread. The revamp of Magic Girl should be something to too. I'm getting one NIB soon and saving up for the Deeproot releases regardless of what comes out now. The Elvira machine could be interesting, but I already have SS and am content with it for its campiness and theme.
I would love to see original themes, as they don't have constraints from a licensor. I also think a theme can be implemented better without having to tie in mechs with the license allowing more creative toys. Rudy and exploding castle in MM come to mind.
Modular would be awesome too. The Pinball 2000 idea comes to mind. Being able to easily change games by easily swapping playfield and art packages, and keeping the costs down would be awesome.
Quoted from benheck:Oh I'm dead serious.
Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.
Well, like you said, they woudln’t. If VR goes mainstream, and it’s looking quite doubtful at this point with less than 1% penetration, somebody will do it. And it might be better than existing virtual pinball (might), but it would still suck compared to real pinball.
Quoted from jimjim66:I would love to see original themes, as they don't have constraints from a licensor. I also think a theme can be implemented better without having to tie in mechs with the license allowing more creative toys. Rudy and exploding castle in MM come to mind.
Modular would be awesome too. The Pinball 2000 idea comes to mind. Being able to easily change games by easily swapping playfield and art packages, and keeping the costs down would be awesome.
You had me until you said modular like Pinball 2000.
Quoted from jimjim66:Being able to easily change games by easily swapping playfield and art packages, and keeping the costs down would be awesome.
This is another idea that sounds good in theory but in reality really sucks.
First of all, have you ever swapped out a playfield? This will never be an easy thing to do, no matter how clever the idea. Playfields are massive.
The real reason this will never succeed is that for a few dollars more you have a second pinball machine that is ten thousand times easier to sell.
Quoted from Brijam:Well, like you said, they woudln’t. If VR goes mainstream, and it’s looking quite doubtful at this point with less than 1% penetration, somebody will do it. And it might be better than existing virtual pinball (might), but it would still suck compared to real pinball.
Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.
The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.
Quoted from benheck:Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.
The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.
Ben gets it. Check out the evolution of Madden from 1988 until 2018. Pinball has made similar advancements...
Quoted from jimjim66:Being able to easily change games by easily swapping playfield and art packages, and keeping the costs down would be awesome.
Quoted from Brijam:This is another idea that sounds good in theory but in reality really sucks.
First of all, have you ever swapped out a playfield? This will never be an easy thing to do, no matter how clever the idea. Playfields are massive.
On sale now:
https://www.multimorphic.com/p3-pinball-platform/
Quoted from benheck:Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.
The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.
And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
P3 Playfield swaps are pretty damn fast & easy. If I'm careful, the whole process doesn't take more than three minutes, including putting the swapped playfield back into the storage box.
Just waiting on more games to swap in and out...
Quoted from benheck:The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.
Look, you're not going to find someone who loves video games more than me.
But 'better than real life'? That's just plain silly. It's not a question of resolution or approximating 3D. Pinball is visceral. It's a question of sensations. Until we have direct neural input, virtual pinball will suck.
No simulation is better than life. I assure you that no simulation of flying even remotely approaches the thrill of real flight. No car simulator will approach the thrill of driving my Tesla. And no virtual pinball will even remotely approach the visceral experience that is pinball.
Quoted from _xizor:P3 Playfield swaps are pretty damn fast & easy. If I'm careful, the whole process doesn't take more than three minutes, including putting the swapped playfield back into the storage box.
Just waiting on more games to swap in and out...
That's a very interesting platform. I've played it and see lots of potential there. I hope it does well. However...
Quoted from Brijam:The real reason this will never succeed is that for a few dollars more you have a second pinball machine that is ten thousand times easier to sell.
As an operator I would rather have two machines that can earn money. That's also two machines that I can sell to anyone who is interested in pinball. Not just someone who /also/ has the same kind of platform, who doesn't have the playfield I have, and who wants the playfield I have. When I was just a collector I felt the same way.
Quoted from Brijam:Look, you're not going to find someone who loves video games more than me.
But 'better than real life'? That's just plain silly. It's not a question of resolution or approximating 3D. Pinball is visceral. It's a question of sensations. Until we have direct neural input, virtual pinball will suck.
No simulation is better than life. I assure you that no simulation of flying even remotely approaches the thrill of real flight. No car simulator will approach the thrill of driving my Tesla. And no virtual pinball will even remotely approach the visceral experience that is pinball.
Serious question. What is "visceral" about pinball that you don't think can be emulated with future technology?
Quoted from PinballManiac40:You had me until you said modular like Pinball 2000
I meant concept, not necessarily copying Pinball 2000.
Quoted from _xizor:P3 Playfield swaps are pretty damn fast & easy. If I'm careful, the whole process doesn't take more than three minutes, including putting the swapped playfield back into the storage box.
Just waiting on more games to swap in and out...
I agree, they are a very ahead of their time company.
I think Heighway was on track to do this too. They were able to do it for under 4 minutes.
Quoted from Rondogg:Serious question. What is "visceral" about pinball that you don't think can be emulated with future technology?
The sound of the ball hitting the metal ramp and coming down the guide on Metallica! It's real, not tricking me with software. I dont want to wear a helmet to play and regardless of how well it's done, I just don't see it being the same.
Plus don't we look at screens all day. Phones, computers, etc etc. Mechanical anything is an escape from the digital realm.
I think what a lot of people miss, is that there is a component of nostalgia to Pinball. Otherwise why pinball?
Would a ball trough be more reliable if i was operated by a servo,or some other tech? maybe.
But for me Pinball is solenoids, Segment displays and a steel ball, and a cryptic index card trying (or not) to tell you the rules.
Quoted from jimjim66:I meant concept, not necessarily copying Pinball 2000.
I agree, they are a very ahead of their time company.
I think Heighway was on track to do this too. They were able to do it for under 4 minutes.
I like watching that video in a loop. One of the few that think HP's swappable concept was the right way to go. Not having spare parts to plug in was its downfall. That was exasperated by extreme underfunding of the company. Wishing someone else would give it a go. 
Quoted from Rondogg:Serious question. What is "visceral" about pinball that you don't think can be emulated with future technology?
Honestly, an actual ball rolling around on a playfield. That will /never/ be emulated on a flat screen. You need parallax, depth perception.
We can hope for magical non-existent tech like holograms with extremely high resolution, high framerates, and very wide fields of view, but I've seen the latest iterations of holographic tech from the Hololens to holographic TV startups, and honestly the tech stinks.
VR goggles won't work because nobody will wear them in a bar/arcade nor will any operator take the risks of damage/theft. And VR today is still pretty lousy. The problem is that there will /always/ be latency between moving your head and drawing to the screen - that's reality. That latency makes a /lot/ of people sick.
And it can't be purely goggle-based because you still have to figure out how to deliver the haptics - the feeling of hitting the flipper buttons, the pulsing feeling of the solenoids through a 400 pound cabinet. And oh yeah, nudging. So you have to have a cabinet.
Let me ask /you/ a serious question: why do we need to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table?
Quoted from Brijam:Honestly, an actual ball rolling around on a playfield. That will /never/ be emulated on a flat screen. You need parallax, depth perception.
We can hope for magical non-existent tech like holograms with extremely high resolution, high framerates, and very wide fields of view, but I've seen the latest iterations of holographic tech from the Hololens to holographic TV startups, and honestly the tech stinks.
VR goggles won't work because nobody will wear them in a bar/arcade nor will any operator take the risks of damage/theft. And VR today is still pretty lousy. The problem is that there will /always/ be latency between moving your head and drawing to the screen - that's reality. That latency makes a /lot/ of people sick.
And it can't be purely goggle-based because you still have to figure out how to deliver the haptics - the feeling of hitting the flipper buttons, the pulsing feeling of the solenoids through a 400 pound cabinet. And oh yeah, nudging. So you have to have a cabinet.
Let me ask /you/ a serious question: why do we need to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table?
Hey, what do I know? Today alone I listened to an 8 track tape, an LP and a 78 record played on my hand cranked Gramophone. I also asked Alexa to play a song on my Echo+. They were all visceral in their own ways but the LPs and 8 tracks added an element of nostalgia. In any event, I enjoyed them all and look forward to whatever the future holds for music.
I guess the same is for pinball, when the tech gets good enough virtual pinball could be a real game changer. Try to see, not where the tech is right now (which almost all of us hate and find useless) but where it could possibly go: 3d 16k displays that are the exact same dimensions of a current machine (with all the little physical/audible physical idiosyncrasies we all love), the ability to play games with limitless possibilities (like an actual TRex running across the playfield), never a need to make a repair, hundreds of games on one machine, the ability to play in real time against anyone in the world, Pinburgh 118 with 16,000 players. I'm not talking about next year but 10, 20, 30 years from now?
A hundred+ years ago there were men who refused to ever buy a car saying a horse was the real way to travel, now there are men who say that driverless cars are foolish. You honestly think that people born in a hundred years will be in anything but self driving vehicles? To answer your question, no, we don't need or want to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table. I'm just saying that you should have an open mind, at some point (maybe in years or decades) there might be a reason to enjoy both.
I was coming home from the Medical Center here in SA, visiting a friend in really bad shape, and decided to swing by Deep Root on the way home.
It's a huge facility in the SA business park that has been around for decades. It has to be a massive amount of overhead to cover. Not sure how many square ft. but its quite large like i said. Major cash burn with labor included.
Not a car in the parking lot on a Saturday.
It's definitely all in with these guys.
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