(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

4 years ago


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#13801 12 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Blueberry has become the man of the month with his sleuthing. Thanks for posting and including links.
Only way I can see this concept working for deep root is adjusting the terms now. First, $50 per month or $550 annually is too much for a subscription. Reduce amount to $21 per month and the plan might work. Base price of game $5k + $100 shipping + $250 per year to include upgrades and new modes is a small pill to swallow. Second, limit # years required to pay for support to 3 years, when it becomes free for life. So if you keep the game, the cost is capped and it is a known amount $5,850, which is very competitive with Stern. Third, they could switch from subscription to dlc model and that means changing what your payment buys from access to new modes to a recorded license fee. The license stays with the pin. So a Seller loses their rights to purchased upgrades and Buyer gains these rights. Making these rights transferable. Other concerns voiced include what happens if DR stops supporting any of their own games? In that case, I agree that all upgrades should be given free to current game owners and it should be perpetually available on a server. The code needs to be there forever. Any of the above changes would be welcome and might help deep root to survive for another day.
If they make it that far, all they’ll need to figure out is how to manufacture a game. I am thinking RAZA might be delivered by late 2021 and Goonies to follow late 2022. Nothing fast happens in pinball. It will be hard for Robert to hold the company together until then, in my opinion. Ten years to release one title with a second pinball game queued up is no way to run a successful business.

This is all well and good if Deeproot wants to focus on the home market however it seems like they want to get the operators to buy this game. Getting operators to buy a untested machine with a original IP, a non high traffic tested machine with alcohol and kids around that if it breaks cant be simply replaced by mechanical buttons that have existed for decades and a monthly subscription is a tough sell.

Also, the argument about xbox live only works because you can use your own computer or get an xbox for half the price with a 2 year commitment and isnt $5000.

Sell a complete game to people with no strings and DLC and if they put in the time to make a new game addon thats worthy of a purchase then people will do that. Who has confidence to blindly pay for a subscription without a proven track record?

#13802 12 months ago

Any guesses what Robert's new 2020 LLCs are about?

Farewell Dinosaur Entertainment (https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/3660ps/farewell-dinosaur-entertainment-llc)

Robot Dreams Entertainment (https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/36wbyq/robot-dreams-entertainment-llc)

#13803 12 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Any guesses what Robert's new 2020 LLCs are about?

another round of 'fun' raising ?

#13804 12 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Truth is these wifi chips and micros cost bugger all so why not throw them in everything?
Has there been any talk about internet error reporting? You know the thing that would be most important to operators?

Their recently released app looks to be a vanilla Zendesk Support SDK-based app, which allows you to open trouble tickets with DR.

I’d presume reporting an issue from the PinBar would do the same, but I’d hope that Operators would have the ability to route PinBar reports to them.

tl;dr: Like everything with DR, we have no clue what’s going on

-4
#13805 12 months ago

This still a pinball forum or secret police?

#13806 12 months ago

not many secrets left.
beginning to look more and more like someones dream.
we are going to need a different police force for that.
dreampolice02 (resized).jpg

#13807 12 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

This still a pinball forum or secret police?

Yes.

#13808 12 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

This still a pinball forum or secret police?

Just the classic aftermath of not communicating properly. The job is called a community manager and it does look like Robert could use one. The guy obviously suck at it.

#13809 12 months ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

not many secrets left.
beginning to look more and more like someones dream.
we are going to need a different police force for that.
[quoted image]

"They live inside of my head"....

#13810 12 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Just the classic aftermath of not communicating properly. The job is called a community manager and it does look like Robert could use one. The guy obviously suck at it.

Not communicating properly? They haven’t communicated at all recently other than letting a pinball group live stream RAZA during some field testing at a coffee shop. But agreed in general, their communication has been poor from the very beginning. Deeproot traditionally talks when they shouldn’t and are silent when they shouldn’t be! The last however many pages in this thread have been nothing but pure speculation and mostly bashing about DLC and subscription models that came from the “stuff” that blueberryjohnson dug up. This “stuff” may be what deeproot has decided to go with as their model, could be outdated info, could be placeholder pricing, could be something they scrapped altogether, could be them looking for reactions to finalize their pricing, could be them f*cking with us, etc, etc, etc???

I am going to reserve my judgement and opinions until something official is announced from deeproot themselves.

All this speculation has been informative for me, however, as I knew very little about DLC and subscription models as they relate to gaming and similar industries. It has given me lots to think about as it relates to the future of pinball.

#13811 12 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

This “stuff” may be what deeproot has decided to go with as their model, could be outdated info, could be placeholder pricing, could be something they scrapped altogether, could be them looking for reactions to finalize their pricing, could be them f*cking with us, etc, etc, etc???

Lol , keep dreaming .

#13812 12 months ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Lol , keep dreaming .

Lol

16
#13813 12 months ago

DLC subs or no, their launch game is still just John's self-indulgent remake of Cyclone (with zombies added because it was 2012) with a bunch of lights and garish technicolor vomit so you don't notice the lack of flow, toys, cohesion, inserts and rules.

And for all the talk of innovation I've heard this still uses the PROC system ripoff John commissioned years ago.

#13814 12 months ago

Is this priced per game? Meaning if at some point they have 5 titles are you paying $250 per month? Or is it $50 and that covers all titles you own?

#13815 12 months ago
Quoted from jeffgoldstein2:

Is this priced per game? Meaning if at some point they have 5 titles are you paying $250 per month? Or is it $50 and that covers all titles you own?

It's all just speculation at this point.

#13816 12 months ago
Quoted from jeffgoldstein2:

Is this priced per game? Meaning if at some point they have 5 titles are you paying $250 per month? Or is it $50 and that covers all titles you own?

Maybe each extra game adds on $5 no way it can be $50 per game.

#13817 12 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

And for all the talk of innovation I've heard this still uses the PROC system ripoff John commissioned years ago.

ugh.

That is a shitty story.

46
#13818 12 months ago

Let's look at some history. Here is a list of Pinball companies that have gone out of business. Granted, some of these were total failures that never made a single machine but for those that successfully made machines they are still 100% playable today. The reason this hobby is still around is because people who loved the machines lovingly took care of them and kept them in working condition. This list represents thousands of machines that are in all of our homes to this day. Imagine if these companies had made machines that had to ping a server every time you turned it on to see if you had paid your subscription. None of those servers would exist.

Allied Leisure (Centuri)
Alvin G
Atari
Bally Manufacturing
Bill Port
Capcom
Centro Matic
Coffee-Mat
Chicago Coin
Data East
Exhibit Supply Company
Fascination Int., Inc (Allied Leisure)
Game Plan
Genco
Gottlieb
Hankin
Heighway Pinball
Inder
InterFlip/Recreativos Franco
Jennings & Company
Jeutel pinball
LTD of Brazil
Nordamatic
Nuova Bell/Bell Games
Maresa
Mirco Games
Midway Games
Pinstar
Mr. Game
Peyper
Playmatic
Rally Play
Recel/Petaco
Sega Pinball
Sega, S.A. SONIC
Spinball S.A.L.
SunCoast Pinball
Taito of Brazil
United Manufacturing
tecnoplay
The Valley Company
Viza
Wico
Williams Electronics / WMS Industries
Zaccaria
Zidware

This list is a testament to the fact that pinball companies come and go. Bally's is gone. Williams is gone. Stern Electronics is gone. Data East is gone. All of these companies are gone. Some day JJP, Spooky and Stern Pinball will be gone too. I hope we play the full versions of their games for generations.

Paying a monthly fee to a company (which is likely to go out of business/stop supporting old products) to maintain access to the full features of a product you paid thousands of dollars for is the most stupid and short-sighted thing I have heard of in a long long time.

#13819 12 months ago

Well said.

#13820 12 months ago
Quoted from ArcadeRaid:

Let's look at some history. Here is a list of Pinball companies that have gone out of business. Granted, some of these were total failures that never made a single machine but for those that successfully made machines they are still 100% playable today. The reason this hobby is still around is because people who loved the machines lovingly took care of them and kept them in working condition. This list represents thousands of machines that are in all of our homes to this day. Imagine if these companies had made machines that had to ping a server every time you turned it on to see if you had paid your subscription. None of those servers would exist.
Allied Leisure (Centuri)
Alvin G
Atari
Bally Manufacturing
Bill Port
Capcom
Centro Matic
Coffee-Mat
Chicago Coin
Data East
Exhibit Supply Company
Fascination Int., Inc (Allied Leisure)
Game Plan
Genco
Gottlieb
Hankin
Heighway Pinball
Inder
InterFlip/Recreativos Franco
Jennings & Company
Jeutel pinball
LTD of Brazil
Nordamatic
Nuova Bell/Bell Games
Maresa
Mirco Games
Midway Games
Pinstar
Mr. Game
Peyper
Playmatic
Rally Play
Recel/Petaco
Sega Pinball
Sega, S.A. SONIC
Spinball S.A.L.
SunCoast Pinball
Taito of Brazil
United Manufacturing
tecnoplay
The Valley Company
Viza
Wico
Williams Electronics / WMS Industries
Zaccaria
Zidware
This list is a testament to the fact that pinball companies come and go. Bally's is gone. Williams is gone. Stern Electronics is gone. Data East is gone. All of these companies are gone. Some day JJP, Spooky and Stern Pinball will be gone too. I hope we play the full versions of their games for generations.
Paying a monthly fee to a company (which is likely to go out of business/stop supporting old products) to maintain access to the full features of a product you paid thousands of dollars for is the most stupid and short-sighted thing I have heard of in a long long time.

Yet, some people are not only withholding judgement, they are actually looking forward to it!!

10
#13821 12 months ago

Data East isn’t really gone. Data East to Sega to Stern is basically the same company. Just some paperwork and name changes.

#13822 12 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Data East isn’t really gone. Data East to Sega to Stern is basically the same company. Just some paperwork and name changes.

Stern considers all of that part of their ‘30 year’ history.

#13823 12 months ago

True enough but they are separate companies and each change meant a severing of all legal obligations to the former customers. Stern pinball will not service my Stern Electronics nor my Data East machines. I think the point still stands.

16
#13824 12 months ago

Actually not too long ago I called Stern for a problem with my TOMMY that would not boot. Turns out it was a bad PIA and when I swapped it out it worked just great. I could not believe they gave me tech support on a data east game. Maybe the tech was in a good mood

Quoted from ArcadeRaid:

True enough but they are separate companies and each change meant a severing of all legal obligations to the former customers. Stern pinball will not service my Stern Electronics nor my Data East machines. I think the point still stands.

#13825 12 months ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Actually not too long ago I called Stern for a problem with my TOMMY that would not boot. Turns out it was a bad PIA and when I swapped it out it worked just great. I could not believe they gave me tech support on a data east game. Maybe the tech was in a good mood

They usually help on DE games if they can. DE is in their family history.

LTG : )

16
#13826 12 months ago

If this DLC strategy is real, zero chance I’ll buy a deep root game. Huge turnoff. Wish them them and their buyers the best of luck.

#13827 12 months ago
Quoted from ArcadeRaid:

Let's look at some history. Here is a list of Pinball companies that have gone out of business. Granted, some of these were total failures that never made a single machine but for those that successfully made machines they are still 100% playable today. The reason this hobby is still around is because people who loved the machines lovingly took care of them and kept them in working condition. This list represents thousands of machines that are in all of our homes to this day. Imagine if these companies had made machines that had to ping a server every time you turned it on to see if you had paid your subscription. None of those servers would exist.
Allied Leisure (Centuri)
Alvin G
Atari
Bally Manufacturing
Bill Port
Capcom
Centro Matic
Coffee-Mat
Chicago Coin
Data East
Exhibit Supply Company
Fascination Int., Inc (Allied Leisure)
Game Plan
Genco
Gottlieb
Hankin
Heighway Pinball
Inder
InterFlip/Recreativos Franco
Jennings & Company
Jeutel pinball
LTD of Brazil
Nordamatic
Nuova Bell/Bell Games
Maresa
Mirco Games
Midway Games
Pinstar
Mr. Game
Peyper
Playmatic
Rally Play
Recel/Petaco
Sega Pinball
Sega, S.A. SONIC
Spinball S.A.L.
SunCoast Pinball
Taito of Brazil
United Manufacturing
tecnoplay
The Valley Company
Viza
Wico
Williams Electronics / WMS Industries
Zaccaria
Zidware
This list is a testament to the fact that pinball companies come and go. Bally's is gone. Williams is gone. Stern Electronics is gone. Data East is gone. All of these companies are gone. Some day JJP, Spooky and Stern Pinball will be gone too. I hope we play the full versions of their games for generations.
Paying a monthly fee to a company (which is likely to go out of business/stop supporting old products) to maintain access to the full features of a product you paid thousands of dollars for is the most stupid and short-sighted thing I have heard of in a long long time.

Hey!!! Show some love for Day One Pinball!! ScoreGasm for the win!

10
#13828 12 months ago

I'm more sad we've forgotten about Vonnie D already!

#13829 12 months ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

I'm more sad we've forgotten about Vonnie D already!

There's always something there to remind us...

BtbxZM-CEAEzeM3 (resized).jpg
#13830 12 months ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

I'm more sad we've forgotten about Vonnie D already!

I wonder if that guy is out of jail yet. What was his name? Wes Somethingrather?

Edit- Wes Upchurch.
Looks like he might have another 8 months or so in prison.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdmo/pr/columbia-man-pleads-guilty-smuggling-k2-china

#13831 12 months ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

I'm more sad we've forgotten about Vonnie D already!

I was going to mention this but I forgot their name. All I remembered was gremlins and vonnie got in trouble for selling synthetic pot

#13832 12 months ago
8B462B61-F08E-4419-A0BF-BAC1E783CFFD (resized).jpeg
#13833 12 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

[quoted image]

Do I need to subscribe to beer a beer out?

#13834 12 months ago

Out of curiosity i just checked the SEC filings. No annual update since 9-12-2019 on the "Deeproot 575 fund" which i believe was the entity that was used to fund pinball operations as an underlying investment for the fund.

"Once the initial Form D is submitted, the filer has to submit an annual amendment on or before the first anniversary date, if the offering is continuous. Certain private funds, such as private equity, generally do not submit an annual amendment if fundraising has been completed and no new commitments are being accepted. Private funds that close to new investors or liquidate before the anniversary date also do not need to submit an amendment."

Interestingly, on May 15, 2015, they filed another Reg D offering for $6,000,000 under "Deeproot Pinball, LLC" that appears to have never raised a dime according to the filing. That was the only one.

Then on September 3, 2015 they filed the first notice of offering, Reg D, for "Deeproot 575 fund".

The substantial amount of PPP money they received for two entities had to be used for payroll and rent. Not sure if they will be eligible for another loan on the new stimulus package coming?

How are the games going to get built?

#13835 12 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How are the games going to get built?

That seems to be the number one question .
From all reports they don't even have a production line set up , after all this time that seems a bit suss .
Hopefully for everyone interested in the game , this is untrue .
If deep root or anyone else could show pictures of their Production line , I think it would help put alot people at ease .
IMG_20201202_232146 (resized).jpg

#13836 12 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Out of curiosity i just checked the SEC filings. No annual update since 9-12-2019 on the "Deeproot 575 fund" which i believe was the entity that was used to fund pinball operations as an underlying investment for the fund.

When might an "annual update" be due? And when would it be overdue?

#13837 12 months ago
Quoted from screaminr:

If deep root or anyone else could show pictures of their Production line , I think it would help put alot people at ease .

Andrew Heighway posted many photos and videos of the "production" line.

#13838 12 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Andrew Heighway posted many photos and videos of the "production" line.

Were they fake? Or just poorly run? I didn't follow that saga too closely.

#13839 12 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Were they fake? Or just poorly run? I didn't follow that saga too closely.

Poorly run to the extreme.

11
#13840 11 months ago

There was a line, and they did manage to produce ~100 Full Throttles, ~200 Aliens, and whatever Bacardis they made. So when that still happened and it still was a disaster, if a company can't even get it to Heighway levels, there's not a lot there to be confident about.

#13841 11 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Were they fake? Or just poorly run? I didn't follow that saga too closely.

He did a tour through the „factory“, I think for Pinball News and there may be still that video online.

There wasn‘t anything staged, most people watching this didn‘t seem to notice that there were no workers and very little in parts, but machines that could produce stuff but no one around to use the machines.

I didn‘t know Heighway story at the time but saw that video and imediately thought this is a hoax.
(That this „line“ can manufacture the numbers what they claim it does.)

14
#13842 11 months ago

Heighway and DP's mistake was trying to actually build games. Instead of trying to grift their way to retirement age.

Everyone knows the best way to lure investors is by making a fake diorama of a game that looks like Rainbow Bright vomited up Fruit Loops onto the glow-in-the-dark carpet of a bowling alley floor.

16
#13843 11 months ago

My suspicion of the mysterious and revolutionary "Octo Manufacturing" that Deeproot has promoted, will turn out to be nothing more than a fancy name for contract manufacturing. Contract manufacturing is as old as the hills and fraught with pitfalls for any business that doesn't have their shit together.
It doesn't always spell disaster of course but look to Dutch Pinball vs ARA as an example.

That's my guess why we don't see any pictures of a Deeproot production line.

#13844 11 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

My suspicion of the mysterious and revolutionary "Octo Manufacturing" that Deeproot has promoted, will turn out to be nothing...

Eight years to build a pin?

#13845 11 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Eight years to build a pin?

Ridiculous isn't it.
But we have promises of a Pinbar and wrap around backglass.
Oh... not to forget a subscription fee.

#13846 11 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Heighway and DP's mistake was trying to actually build games. Instead of trying to grift their way to retirement age.
Everyone knows the best way to lure investors is by making a fake diorama of a game that looks like Rainbow Bright vomited up Fruit Loops onto the glow-in-the-dark carpet of a bowling alley floor.

I'd be in on a Rainbow Bright pin. Lurky was the shit.

#13847 11 months ago

Here's a Software as Service gold nugget.

Office 365! Pay to keep up with the latest version, even though Word is still using the same linking dialog box from 1997:

PXL_20201203_173809334 (resized).jpg
#13848 11 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Out of curiosity i just checked the SEC filings. No annual update since 9-12-2019 on the "Deeproot 575 fund" which i believe was the entity that was used to fund pinball operations as an underlying investment for the fund.
"Once the initial Form D is submitted, the filer has to submit an annual amendment on or before the first anniversary date, if the offering is continuous. Certain private funds, such as private equity, generally do not submit an annual amendment if fundraising has been completed and no new commitments are being accepted. Private funds that close to new investors or liquidate before the anniversary date also do not need to submit an amendment."
Interestingly, on May 15, 2015, they filed another Reg D offering for $6,000,000 under "Deeproot Pinball, LLC" that appears to have never raised a dime according to the filing. That was the only one.
Then on September 3, 2015 they filed the first notice of offering, Reg D, for "Deeproot 575 fund".
The substantial amount of PPP money they received for two entities had to be used for payroll and rent. Not sure if they will be eligible for another loan on the new stimulus package coming?
How are the games going to get built?

So all of us Americans are paying for Deeproot machines, whether we actually buy one or not.

#13849 11 months ago
Quoted from okgrak:

So all of us Americans are paying for Deeproot machines, whether we actually buy one or not.

Nope we are paying for employees to keep their jobs.

#13850 11 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Nope we are paying for employees to keep their jobs.

That is a positive thing, we taxpayers are helping Deeproot employees get a paycheck due in large part to the terrible management of the company.

Covid had absolutely NOTHING to do with it other than provide another excuse. PPP gave them a lifeline.

There are 27,189 posts in this topic. You are on page 277 of 544.

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