Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from kermit24:They haven’t even updated the menu UI to LCD after all these years.
No need, it's simple, easy & just plain works. Operators don't want to learn a new system. Why should Stern spend money on things that add zero value to the player?
Quoted from yancy:No need, it's simple, easy & just plain works.
So is a rock - doesn't make it polished and desirable.
Quoted from yancy:No need, it's simple, easy & just plain works. Operators don't want to learn a new system. Why should Stern spend money on things that add zero value to the player?
I’d argue with the “zero value”. Makes it easier to diagnose issues. Much faster adjustments.
Deeproot is amusing. It's like- how not to make pinball, and how not to do PR. And charging a satellite subscription amount of dough for... what? Priceless 
On another matter (albeit predatory shark-related), how much stolen IP is visible in RAZA? Maybe Deeproot can pay royalties back to Jpop victims, as the former is apparently so keen on the subscription model? $100 per month per victim forever would seem fair. Plus interest and legal fees, obviously.
Quoted from flynnibus:So is a rock - doesn't make it polished and desirable.
Congrats on the worst analogy I've seen this year and maybe ever.
When Flynn enters the argument you know it's time to exit. You guys enjoy daydreaming about intricate, complicated service menus.
Quoted from benheck:Also the dirty little secret since the dawn of time is you NEVER own software you are merely granted the license to use it. So yes, if you sold a DR machine secondhand the content would be locked to new user unless they subscribed.
I would hope the license for DLC content is transferable along with the game. People sell secondhand software pretty regularly, it's fine as long as everything is transferred to new owner.
Otherwise you'll have people registering their DR games with information that could simply be transferred to the new owner ("OK the game's loaded up, here's its registration email account logon info...") It could get really stupid if DR tries to make money on every secondhand sale of their games...
Once DR has actually manufactured, oh, say, 10 machines, will I start concerning myself with their subscription idea. That’s probably a year away.
So funny, DR is such a nothing burger at this point. And yet, here we are.
Quoted from kermit24:but it is a rather larger chunk of the collector market. Probably well north of 30%.
I’m thinking more like 10%
Quoted from benheck:...Also the dirty little secret since the dawn of time is you NEVER own software you are merely granted the license to use it. So yes, if you sold a DR machine secondhand the content would be locked to new user unless they subscribed.
I sort of asked this question a day or so ago, but in the context of "What if the original owner stopped the subscription service, does the DLC go away?"
I guess it would really be up to DR to decide if the new content stays or goes. My WAG would be bug fixes stay, but not sure about the DLC.
The next generation cargument, as delivered by rapper/CarShield spokesman, Ice-T:
"My monthly Deeproot subscription is always there for me. . .so that I can worry less."
"Replaced my general illumination, my cabinet illumination, my hardware, my software, my folding legs, my canopy glass, my wrap-around backbox, my bulletproofed playfield, my custom shipping crate and even my pinbar. Who does that?"
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:There is a lot to digest in this thread. One thing I would be interested in is, what are the updates like for $50/month. Is this additional code worth it? I'm hoping it's just not big fixes and normal things but features within the logic of the game. I will never say never, like previously stated, we as hobbyists and operators are spending more and more on location pinball. Side note, the cost of a game is still the same per play as it was many years ago. I am not sure how we can cross over to charge the correct amount and stay in business at this juncture.
Final thoughts are, if it's worth it then, I would do it. But there has to be additional value for both myself and our customers. I can't say for sure what it will look like so my thoughts are just speculation, but I hope whatever the end results are, there is value for the player in it.
We were ready to support Deeproot. My wife and I watched the stream. She loves the theme and ramp. Zero percent chance a new company is getting subscription money from me. They might get me to buy an upgrade but I'm not paying for a subscription until the value is proven.
Quoted from yancy:You guys enjoy daydreaming about intricate, complicated service menus.
Daydreaming? The competition has already shown what is possible and what you gain. JJP and AP both offer huge advantages over the 1995 Sega Portals menu that Stern continues to use DECADES later.
Yeah, keep defending 'nothing to gain' when comparing a 32 line DMD to a high res 1080 full color display. For sure.. nothing could possibly be done better than what they did 25 years ago... and nothing has changed in needs or anything right??
Stern's market is the home buyer now... maybe, just maybe, that customer base has different needs than the 1995 operator?
Not that anyone could tell from Stern's offering.
Quoted from Looprunner:We were ready to support Deeproot. My wife and I watched the stream. She loves the theme and ramp. Zero percent chance a new company is getting subscription money from me. They might get me to buy an upgrade but I'm not paying for a subscription until the value is proven.
Deeproot’s entire approach is asinine. So they want to introduce a new model for sales. Fantastic I say, try something different. But that approach is to charge you effectively full price of a Stern and then a subscription on top of that. You are effectively investor funded and you want to make a dent in the pin industry ? Try pricing it at $2500 and then pile the $700 subscription on top of that. For every owner down the line that wants the thing to remain operational, there is a subscription fee. Your first owner keeps it say 3 years, they are still relatively out well less than a Stern. If the game stays in play say 10 years you get you $9500. With their current approach they offer 1) nada on pricing 2) nada on desirable theme 3) nada on new features - sorry Pinbar 4) nada on build quality 5) nada on innovation. There is nothing here that gets them out of selling more than 100 units a year. There will be no dent made here, there is no clear value proposition to be found in anything they are offering.
Quoted from chuckwurt:I’m thinking more like 10%
Usually recent games with known production quantities show about 30% of that number in pinside collections. It does vary a bit depending on the game of course. Not scientific but a good indicator.
I’m talking LE / Premium / Boutique type models, not pros.
Quoted from kermit24:Usually recent games with known production quantities show about 30% of that number in pinside collections. It does vary a bit depending on the game of course. Not scientific but a good indicator.
I’m talking LE / Premium / Boutique type models, not pros.
Well LE owners are most likely to be enthusiast, so it makes sense they are on Pinside more than the average buyer.
Quoted from Kkoss24:I was very interested now I’m hanging on by a thread .Lets see what the official reveal , reveals !
The third reveal is the charm!
Quoted from jellikit:The third reveal is the charm!
This next one will be the fourth one.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This next one will be the fourth one.
Sorry, hard to keep up.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This next one will be the fourth one.
Good lord. Wake me up when they have a modern pinball machine.
Quoted from flynnibus:Daydreaming? The competition has already shown what is possible and what you gain. JJP and AP both offer huge advantages over the 1995 Sega Portals menu that Stern continues to use DECADES later.
LCDs are a gimmick to get customers to play a game. They offer nothing to the actual gameplay. There is no game that has taken advantage of a color display. Stern and JJP's menus are the same thing except one offers the info vertically and the other is screen by screen. AP's menu system is nothing to write home about not that many people have seen them.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yeah, keep defending 'nothing to gain' when comparing a 32 line DMD to a high res 1080 full color display. For sure.. nothing could possibly be done better than what they did 25 years ago... and nothing has changed in needs or anything right??
Stern's market is the home buyer now... maybe, just maybe, that customer base has different needs than the 1995 operator?
Not that anyone could tell from Stern's offering.
You conveniently forget pin2k in your argument. Glad to see they are still around. I'm sure operators really cared about a menu system over an intellectual property.
Quoted from Looprunner:We were ready to support Deeproot. My wife and I watched the stream. She loves the theme and ramp. Zero percent chance a new company is getting subscription money from me. They might get me to buy an upgrade but I'm not paying for a subscription until the value is proven.
All very true. I'll roll the dice to see where it all ends up but I totally understand your stance on it. We basically have subscription services through a bunch of companies, ie raw thrills, incredible technologies, touch tunes, ami, usa tech, etc. Some provide more value than others but this has been going on in coin op for many years now. You buy something and it's not the end. Haha
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I'm obviously simplifying, but the API that someone mentioned is simply some endpoints. Stern already has a website with auth that they can surface the data in. So yeah, it's not -that- hard.
API is sort of easier. But what about the web portal to make the data useful? Or the phone app for two platforms? Now it’s a full time job for multiple people.
I also do this for a living and it’s typical of a backend only guy to say “oh that’s easy” then six months later after going through the complicated auth, security, input validation, rate limiting and protocol changes come back and say “oh maybe it’s more than opening a port on the firewall.”
Quoted from jwilson:API is sort of easier. But what about the web portal to make the data useful? Or the phone app for two platforms? Now it’s a full time job for multiple people.
I also do this for a living and it’s typical of a backend only guy to say “oh that’s easy” then six months later after going through the complicated auth, security, input validation, rate limiting and protocol changes come back and say “oh maybe it’s more than opening a port on the firewall.”
Yes, those people are idiots. I was once hiring to fill a role i needed for a super complex system and the guy told me he could do it with a laptop and a weekend. He did not get hired.
If we want to privately chat about my resume, I'd be happy to convince you.
The original point was Stern will do this in house, not farm it out to someone like Scorbit.
DLC means you pay a one-time charge and have access to that added code (usually) indefinitely. Can be transferrable in many cases.
Subscription model means you pay a monthly fee in order to have access to code or service. Like Netflix. Once you stop paying, access to code or service ceases. Definately non-transferrable.
What is being discussed is that it looks like DR is proposing a subscription model of $550 per year to have access to added features.
My point is simply that all this will do is piss most potential customers off, both operators and hobbyists and this will lead to lower sales. No manufacturer has done this before and DR is not the company to start this. They continue to think they are leading the industry. DR does not have the sway at this point to pull this off. They have anti-sway, the anti-particle to sway.
All other manufacturers release FREE code updates and some new features/modes for years and operators and hobbyists are accustomed to that.
If DR goes down the subscription model path, they will feel pressure to regularly release new subscription stuff which will mean only bug fixes will make it into non-subscription updates thereby delivering LESS value to those that don’t subscribe. LESS than what competitors provide. Again pissing off customers who just wonder to themselves, why didn’t I just buy an Stern or JJP or etc.
DR has the right to shoot themselves in the foot with whatever they want to.
The bright side is it will make RAZA even rarer. Even rarer will be having access to the subscription update code far into the future when they stop supporting it or go out of business. Nothing more rare than zero.
Quoted from Blindseer:LCDs are a gimmick to get customers to play a game. They offer nothing to the actual gameplay. There is no game that has taken advantage of a color display. Stern and JJP's menus are the same thing except one offers the info vertically and the other is screen by screen. AP's menu system is nothing to write home about not that many people have seen them.
You conveniently forget pin2k in your argument. Glad to see they are still around. I'm sure operators really cared about a menu system over an intellectual property.
Hogwash. The screen on Willy Wonka is chockablock with key information that keeps you updated on your immediate as well as long term objectives and fully aware of everything going on in your game. Which is wonderful, because there is so much going on in a JJP game. This can free up the playfield for other things than big - and sometimes ugly (24 anyone?) inserts that otherwise need to be there to show your progress for major milestones.
On top of that, the JJP screen and graphics are gorgeous. I never, ever thought I’d say this, but after owning a game with the large LCD, other games fall short in this dept. and non color DMD games seem out dated. Sterns LCD is ok, but JJPs are the state of the art.
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:All very true. I'll roll the dice to see where it all ends up but I totally understand your stance on it. We basically have subscription services through a bunch of companies, ie raw thrills, incredible technologies, touch tunes, ami, usa tech, etc. Some provide more value than others but this has been going on in coin op for many years now. You buy something and it's not the end. Haha
I do not mind if they keep it interesting. Pinball machines can get stale!
Quoted from spinal:My point is simply that all this will do is piss most potential customers off, both operators and hobbyists and this will lead to lower sales. No manufacturer has done this before and DR is not the company to start this. They continue to think they are leading the industry and don’t have the sway at this point to pull this off.
Completely agree and if you've been following the recent tone in this thread, you get a sense that past Deeproot supporters here are beginning to hit a wall. (supporters that I respect, btw)
Quoted from spinal:The bright side is it will make RAZA even rarer. Even rarer will be having access to the subscription update code far into the future when they stop supporting it or go out of business. Nothing more rare than zero.
Think about Cosmic Carnival if anyone still believes rarity equals value.
But lets wait until the official offer is laid out in detail. This soft reveal will certainly be followed up by a TWIP interview or something. Right?
Quoted from Blindseer:LCDs are a gimmick to get customers to play a game. They offer nothing to the actual gameplay
By this logic, why does anyone care about clear coats, cabinet brackets, wood, radcals, speakers, lights, art, etc... none of them offer anything to actual gameplay right? This is a cherry picked argument that ignores you are buying a complete product - not just one aspect.
Quoted from Blindseer:There is no game that has taken advantage of a color display. Stern and JJP's menus are the same thing except one offers the info vertically and the other is screen by screen. AP's menu system is nothing to write home about not that many people have seen them.
This is simply false. Playfield maps, color coding, and more. To claim zero advancement is simply a position of ignorance.
Quoted from Blindseer:You conveniently forget pin2k in your argument. Glad to see they are still around. I'm sure operators really cared about a menu system over an intellectual property.
I didn't forget pin2k - they weren't part of the conversation because it wasn't related to Stern's choices. But nice try at the strawman... next time try to pick one actually in the discussion.
The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.
They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.
Quoted from benheck:The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.
They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.
Their titles definitely lean on nostalgia for pinball's 90s glory. I don't know how big a market that is, and it definitely isn't an expanding market.
Quoted from frolic:Their titles definitely lean on nostalgia for pinball's 90s glory. I don't know how big a market that is, and it definitely isn't an expanding market.
If we can order a burrito through the PinBar (tm) on FoodTruck, we will have expanding waistlines!
A licensed theme does a lot of the heavy lifting with selling a game.
A good license is even more important when the stuff around the game isn’t particularly desirable.
That said, if it’s really $5k for a base unit...plenty of people happy to pay that and ignore all the subscription stuff. (As long as there is a 90s William era level code depth without a sub)
I remember some mentions of ads on the Pinbar ™️. I wonder if they are subsidizing the cost of the machine through ad revenue. Or maybe if you don’t pay the sub, you get ads. Or maybe if you watch some ads, it gives you a demo of the sub.
Quoted from Roostking:I say again, if I can order a burrito through the PinBar (tm) on FoodTruck, we will have expanding waistlines!
The topper could be a microwave.
The microwave should be in the coin door, as you progress through the game your burrito gets additional ingredients. Complete a mode and the coin door pops open and the burrito is ready. Pingulps on the legs hold salsa and hot sauce. Hey, its more innovative than a Pinbar.
Quoted from Mr68:The topper could be a microwave.
The bar was set high by RAZA.
dp_topper (resized).jpgQuoted from benheck:They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
I don't think that is a fair statement to make. The way pins were sold was entirely different. Distributors committed to large orders before the games were done. The use of licensing was as much about confidence in the channel as it was about attracting patrons on the street. They didn't have the luxury of releasing games and then waiting 6months to get traction and ramp up production as needed. They got blind orders from distributors, had a limited time window for more, and expected demand to wane in short order so they were queuing the next title to take over. Schedule was king. Add in they were trying to time with contemporary IP (and not retro) and timing was even more critical.
Point being... except in limited cases... the production schedule moved on regardless. There was no time/opportunity for 'late bloomers' to show up in increased production numbers. We also have the macro topics of what was happening in the time period of home gaming vs arcades.
Popularity in coin drop (and later hobby interests) didn't always align with production - for alot of reasons that were independent of long term success.
Quoted from pookycade:Deeproot’s entire approach is asinine. So they want to introduce a new model for sales. Fantastic I say, try something different. But that approach is to charge you effectively full price of a Stern and then a subscription on top of that. You are effectively investor funded and you want to make a dent in the pin industry ? Try pricing it at $2500 and then pile the $700 subscription on top of that. For every owner down the line that wants the thing to remain operational, there is a subscription fee. Your first owner keeps it say 3 years, they are still relatively out well less than a Stern. If the game stays in play say 10 years you get you $9500. With their current approach they offer 1) nada on pricing 2) nada on desirable theme 3) nada on new features - sorry Pinbar 4) nada on build quality 5) nada on innovation. There is nothing here that gets them out of selling more than 100 units a year. There will be no dent made here, there is no clear value proposition to be found in anything they are offering.
I don't think any pinball company could survive with a $2,500 base price. I could see $4,000 with a required $500 subscription for year one. I might actually bite on that package and make a decision on year 2 regarding the subscription. What happens if you let the subscription expire? There are so many posts on here I cannot keep up. Are you stuck on that code forever? Or, does the machine become inoperable?
Quoted from TreyBo69:I remember some mentions of ads on the Pinbar ™️. I wonder if they are subsidizing the cost of the machine through ad revenue. Or maybe if you don’t pay the sub, you get ads. Or maybe if you watch some ads, it gives you a demo of the sub.
Some really good questions there. The older I get the more I believe and trust in the old saying that if somethings seems to good to be true, it probably is. The price of the base unit just makes no sense on the surface when you look that both machines side by side in the pictures at the recent event. Pealing back the onion a little shows that having to sign up for a minimum of a year subscription even if you pay by the month brings the game to $5600. Advertising is another facet of the app store theory of shaking the customer down for more money that I hadn't thought of. There was also speculation of the subscription add-ons not transferring to a new buyer. This would really complicate resale. Not to mention having one game at $50 a month is one thing. Do they really expect to see people buy four or five games and have them subscribe them all?
Finally, I would hope that if/when DR goes out of business they would unlock all of the machines and provide the latest code to the owners. Imagine owning a game that has been subscribed for two years and suddenly it reverts to the base software load because DR pull the plug on their online service? Just sayin.
Quoted from John_I:Imagine owning a game that has been subscribed for two years and suddenly it reverts to the base software load because DR pull the plug on their online service? Just sayin.
Not hard to imagine, it's DR mantra.
Also not hard to imagine DR going out of business too. It took over 8 years to "reveal" RAZA....at that rate we will see a new game in 2028...maybe later? DR is all talk, all greed. Wrong staff there. Some good ideas, but they come from a pit of greed...for that reason, I'm out. I would purchase RAZA at $5000, but I won't sign up for any monthly payments or put up with any micro transactions. This is pinball, not a phone app. If I wanted a phone app I'd purchase one. The company is already leaving a bad taste in my mouth. The way they've conducted this "reveal" is a sneak peek into how they do business, delays, rushing poor product, poor communication, more delays, cart before the horse way of business. DR has a lot of red flags, and should be ignored. If JJP is an established company and is having a hard time delivering their newest machine, I find it hard to believe DR has it all figured out, especially when everything they've done so far has been a mess. They over promise and don't deliver. Too many chances and too many do-overs to have any faith in DR. They should just fold now and save face.
Quoted from benheck:The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.
They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.
Food Truck seems to have some momentum, but I’m holding out for Urinal Cake and Fomunda Cheese. I hear the interactive toys on those are gonna change the game.
Quoted from Sinistarrett:The microwave should be in the coin door, as you progress through the game your burrito gets additional ingredients. Complete a mode and the coin door pops open and the burrito is ready. Pingulps on the legs hold salsa and hot sauce. Hey, its more innovative than a Pinbar.
My concern is that you have to get ingredients via updates. So base burrito on day one. 1st month update, cheese, etc etc. When it comes to condiments, what if sour cream comes before guac? That's a deal killer right there!!
Quoted from BallPin:for that reason, I'm out.
Oooh, deeproot on Shark Tank, that’d be some good TV.
DR IP TM WIP (Hands OFF!!!)
Hammer Tested
PinAccess
PinApp
PinArmor
PinBar
PinKit
PinOS
PinPod
PinRDE
RAZA
rootAccess
TPOE
Xtra
Quoted from benheck:The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.
They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.
I think unlicensed themes could do very well, but they aren't done very well these days. I actually prefer them.
DI is mom jeans, but ppl are coming around to it. Bk3 is barren. Octoberfest has design issues as does Houdini. Raza has early SS mechs.
If they load the damned thing and made it cool, it could sell. But maybe you're right. Maybe it's too tough to pull it all together.
Quoted from benheck:The PinBar is a cool concept. But it's just another screen. It displays info and takes input, neither of those are an innovation. I like how it helps add players. But I'm worried with how much DR talks about narrative and how that might cause the game to stop constantly and request input on it. It's also why the lack of inserts on RAZA is concerning, means the game progression has to show up someplace other than the PF. Guarantee that's a headache for Bowden and whoever is coding it.
IMO the Stranger Things projection mapping is a much cooler innovation. (albeit an ancient concept) Granted the game isn't the best and the projector could be brighter (though it looks better in person) it's still a cool way to add diversity to an otherwise fairly static PF. It's like Pinball 2000 but doesn't add 200 lbs.
And it bears repeating that Millenials and Gen Z (the people actually plunking down location money) like pinball BECAUSE it is retro. I don't think boomer designers get this. They're in a mindset of "what do the kids like I know phones!" and we get Dialed In and The PinBar.
Young people are obsessed with VHS, tape decks, the 80s, vinyl records in the same way Boomers were obsessed with cowboys and colt pistols. The innovation shouldn't be a dumb LCD but how we can use today's amazing sensors and robotics to make the real physical PF come alive in a way that's more exciting and tangible than games on your phone.
DR has talked about everything BUT the game with RAZA. Hopefully their other stuff will be better. But this is a dud. There's no magic just a bunch of color and lights.
Thanks for the response...I appreciate your thoughts.
In the Twip article that showed all the different titles DR has planned ,it said in small caption underneath about each games “inovation” as far as mechs that haven’t been used before .I mean there’s 4 designers working there wouldn’t you think they’re all working on something right now ? I think once they get past RAZA and tweaking all the new stuff like pinbar ,the pop(no pun)glass,etc they will run a lot more smoothly .Thats my hope anyway .
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