Sioux Falls, SD
It's just a reason for DP to sandbag updates so they can keep getting $50 per month for years into the future.
At least with games like fortnite you get the base game. It just costs extra for cosmetic items like skins.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
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Magic Girl
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from cpr9999:In near future every new pin will be Net-connected for updates etc.
Get on board folks.
The very few Pinsiders will leave the industry - most will concede. The next shiny object will come and they will reason the purchase. Human nature. Look at the example above - how many people are running old version of Office? When that Pinsiders PC dies they will update!
Question is .... is how far will these companies go? How big subscription price will be paid? They will start small and increase.
I love how when Stern tries to sell an aftermarket light kit, or a topper
That comes with a dumb “dlc” mode the peasants riot...
But now when deep root suggests their entire model for profit is gonna be thousands of dollars of annual virtual “add ons” it’s all “hey it’s the way if the future! Get on board!”
Now that the hilarious deep root scam has finally been revealed in full, it’s pretty obvious they are done. Nobody is gonna get “on board” with this nonsense.
I’m sure they’ll sell a handful of games to people who are just buying to “own the stern fanboys” but it’s pretty clear the jig is up.
This company will be out of business very shortly.
This is the DIVX of pinball and it’ll be just as successful.
Quoted from Pinballs:You can buy modded consoles, everdrives etc with every game ever made for that console. And that's Sony and Microsoft consoles, not Mr Amateur Hour. Yes, this will be hacked, haha.
But as for Net-connected- fairly pointless. If I update that way, fine. I'll add pin wifi to my other 1,000 wifi-enabled devices. However, what I won't do with pinball wifi is pay a subscription. Deeproot clearly craves the subscription model, as you'd expect from a predatory shark. But this fish doesn't intend to be eaten.
Millions buy those consoles and lots of money in bootlegs, so there is a large demand and incentive to hack them.
Now I’m not saying deeproot are security savants. But they are using popular (and well supported) tools like Unity and have hired a lot of people experienced in the video game industry. They’re probably not stupid and it’s not quite the same home grown platform solution Stern has cobbled together and hasn’t had much reason to proactively lock down.
And frankly, how many of the dozens of these that get built and delivered will go to someone who is competent to do that work. A lot more will go to people who don’t mind paying the annual fees...
Düsseldorf
The funny thing is, all the new ruckus is about data that can still change, a subscription that you don‘t know yet what it will get you, and only relevant if the games ever seem the light of day anyway...
...wich suddenly all here see as a given?! XD
Since when are you guys so positive? 
Quoted from DS_Nadine:The funny thing is, all the new ruckus is about data that can still change, a subscription that you don‘t know yet what it will get you, and only relevant if the games ever seem the light of day anyway...
...wich suddenly all here see as a given?! XD
Since when are you guys so positive?
Cause it’s like the fifth time this game has been kinda sorta shown off.
The playfield is known. Manufacturing concerns horses still beaten. The software is the only thing worth discussing.
Quoted from NeilMcRae:honestly a chimpanzee and two trainees will be able to hack the DLC - like the massive use of upgraded stern code with audio and video assets.
but honestly you bozos saying pinheads will pay anything - its just nonsense.
its like saying petrolheads will buy anything - so if only Bugatti sold their car for 4500 those bastards!
beatles sales were poor.
topper sales would be factored into the overall plan for JP2, Elvira etc.
pasted_image.gifThe only thing I really give a shit about is the Goodwill people in this mess. Keep in mind they are not getting a free game but rather they are recovering lost money. And some of them with smaller amounts will have to pay a balance to get a game per the agreement.
This monthly/yearly fee, if true, should be waived for them otherwise they are in a hostage situation. I can guarantee none of this was revealed in the Goodwill agreement.
Quoted from HamburglarHunk:Here is a little gameplay I took. Have a bunch of other photos I can add if anyone is interested.
I like the animation when the ball only makes it half way up the ramp.
Quoted from HamburglarHunk:Here is a little gameplay I took. Have a bunch of other photos I can add if anyone is interested.
What did you think of the game?
At :47 in the second video the target is knocked loose. Notice the slings in the stream were weak and non responsive. Game doesn't seem polished.
Quoted from BallPin:Notice the slings in the stream were weak and non responsive.
Part of an upcoming DLC update.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I love how when Stern tries to sell an aftermarket light kit, or a topper
That comes with a dumb “dlc” mode the peasants riot...
But now when deep root suggests their entire model for profit is gonna be thousands of dollars of annual virtual “add ons” it’s all “hey it’s the way if the future! Get on board!”
Now that the hilarious deep root scam has finally been revealed in full, it’s pretty obvious they are done. Nobody is gonna get “on board” with this nonsense.
I’m sure they’ll sell a handful of games to people who are just buying to “own the stern fanboys” but it’s pretty clear the jig is up.
This company will be out of business very shortly.
This is the DIVX of pinball and it’ll be just as successful.
My comments are less about DR. They can go belly up for all I care. I just see the pinball industry going in this direction. Frankly, there are many other industries who have been doing this for some time - that’s all. Also didn’t say I like it either- but reality is there.
I wonder what the critical mass to make all the annual subscription stuff worth it is.
Assuming it’s worthwhile, it would take a small team doing some design, concept, art, sound, scripting, and testing work over a couple of months to make content to dole out over the year.
It quickly gets to the point where they need several hundred subscribers to make additional content, and a couple thousand to make it worth the effort. Maybe to cut costs in the future, some of the content that was going to be in the game gets moved to the subscription service.
FUD is FUN
Quoted from BallPin:What did you think of the game?
At :47 in the second video the target is knocked loose. Notice the slings in the stream were weak and non responsive. Game doesn't seem polished.
I personally enjoyed the game. Game has a linear style and many avenues to get great points.
The left sling was definitely iffy with firing, as well as the ZOMBIE target that wasn't registering direct hits but from what I was told that was something they were going to have to adjust.
I'm not sure if you are referring to the spinner on the "Dizzie Doozie" at 47 seconds but it looks like it just did a half spin to an angle that isn't visble.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think you're confused? No one was saying you should have to pay credits to play a game setup in your house.
It's a hypothetical location play scenario. The operator puts a machine on location and they join the deeproot operator service or whatever. That could enable a bunch of additional features/payment options/monetization paths. And location players would be incentivized to join the service for player tracking, tournaments, easier payment options (millennials barely carry cash, let alone quarters), etc... with a paid tear that gives some benefits like free digital credit tokens
I dont think I'm confused. Are you saying HOU gets all updates for free and does not have to buy the service?
Im going with Occums razor here. Its easier to just charge everyone. DR is nothing but bravado, this is just another sign.
What about the op who wants to sell the pin down the road and these updates are not transferable. " I have $7000 invested! Buyer "Who cares, I have to buy it all again, here's $4500" no sale and now the operator is stuck with a pin he cant sell, unless its below market.. Oh and BTW, there have was a software fix implemented that kept the pin from bricking! It was downloaded 3 months into the service contract.
This is 100% a bad move. IMO
Quoted from benheck:RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors. Software as service/services is how MS and Apple broke the trillion $ market cap barrier. It's the future way corporations plan to bleed us dry.
Exactly. And that is the #1 criteria i look for when investing in a company, "recurring revenue streams" with a growing ecosystem.
That's what makes Tesla another excellent 10 yr investment, even from here, it's NOT the widget cars they are selling.
And pinball is going end up on this same track, it's inevitable. Don't shoot the messenger here. Not saying anyone has to like it.
Just look at these $1,000 toppers that people gobble up like hotcakes and the huge amounts of money that people spend to mod their pins.
Yep, it's coming.......
Link to the full set of pictures. https://imgur.com/a/mFbWeB3
20201121_221030.jpg20201122_135803 (resized).jpg20201122_135903 (resized).jpg20201122_140330 (resized).jpg20201122_140355 (resized).jpgQuoted from Mr68:The only thing I really give a shit about is the Goodwill people in this mess. Keep in mind they are not getting a free game but rather they are recovering lost money. And some of them with smaller amounts will have to pay a balance to get a game per the agreement.
This monthly/yearly fee, if true, should be waived for them otherwise they are in a hostage situation. I can guarantee none of this was revealed in the Goodwill agreement.
Right on Kim! I'd reach out Deeproot but Robert asked me to never contact them again for simply questioning WHEN they would actually be able to live up to THEIR TERMS in the Goodwill Agreement. In other words, when could i make my visit to the facility, pursuant to the Agreement.
I thought it was a pretty simple and fair request? 
And i was nice enough to NOT sue them for "breach of contract" 
. Yet. We will see how things are handled in the future.
I do like his IP lawyer though.
Quoted from iceman44:Right on Kim! I'd reach out Deeproot but Robert asked me to never contact them again for simply questioning WHEN they would actually be able to live up to THEIR TERMS in the Goodwill Agreement. In other words, when could i make my visit to the facility, pursuant to the Agreement.
I thought it was a pretty simple and fair request?
And i was nice enough to NOT sue them for "breach of contract" . Yet. We will see how things are handled in the future.
I do like his IP lawyer though.
Tell RM that this latest move will be super successful. He will return you call asap!
Quoted from HamburglarHunk:Link to the full set of pictures. https://imgur.com/a/mFbWeB3
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Thanks for the pics and summary. Is that a small black spinner disc where Twister Spins insert is pointing to? And I was talking about the "Monkey" target that got knocked loose during a hit. no biggie
Quoted from Pinballs:Learnings-
General: Don't buy a Net-connected pin.
Specific: Avoid Deeproot. More like a deep rogering...
I honestly love it with my Bride 2.0, the updates load easily across WiFi and it's fun to look at the page with everyone's games and see their high scores. I also realize how bad I am at the game looking at the other scores!
Quoted from iceman44:Exactly. And that is the #1 criteria i look for when investing in a company, "recurring revenue streams" with a growing ecosystem.
That's what makes Tesla another excellent 10 yr investment, even from here, it's NOT the widget cars they are selling.
And pinball is going end up on this same track, it's inevitable. Don't shoot the messenger here. Not saying anyone has to like it.
Just look at these $1,000 toppers that people gobble up like hotcakes and the huge amounts of money that people spend to mod their pins.
Yep, it's coming.......
I think it will be dead opposite. Some, like deeproot, maybe jjp, will try it and find out that it's only the topper guys that will pay. Stern, who loves cost cutting more than anything else, will be laughing to the bank. They will keep siimple, low BOM games with awesome designs, great code and cheap components on the production line. Why worry about all the digital infrastructure you have to create to go the DLC route? These are machines meant for routing, collecting and trading. A digital ecosystem does not match up well with the product. No one wants it, and I do think pinheads will reject it. The price point for pins is different than video games or video game systems. Plus there are thousands of used machines to keep most happy for a lifetime.
Quoted from Tranquilize:Why worry about all the digital infrastructure you have to create to go the DLC route?
Well, when you have thirty million to blow.
Hey anyone else notice how few inserts are on this game? It's just arrows pointing at stuff like Ducks, Coaster, Monkey and whatever a Doozie is. Where is the mode progression tracked? The PinBar?
Also where are the zombies? Oh right. John just wanted to remake Cyclone because he's obsessed with Python Angelo. (there's a Dracula on the topper FFS)
Subscription DLC for Pinball is distasteful and unacceptable. A completely repugnant idea that will be the end of the hobby as we know it.
If true, I pray the pinball community vote with their wallets, put an end to the nonsense swiftly, and signal to the manufacturers a loud and resounding NO!
Quoted from benheck:John just wanted to remake Cyclone because he's obsessed with Python Angelo. (there's a Dracula on the topper FFS)
...and you Ben are obsessed with JPop.
Quoted from wrb1977:...and you Ben are obsessed with JPop.
...and you are obsessed with Ben obsessing over JPop
Quoted from PinSinner:If true, I pray the pinball community vote with their wallets, put an end to the nonsense swiftly, and signal to the manufacturers a loud and resounding NO!
If i had a nickel for every time i heard "vote with your wallets" over the past decade over bad pf's, code, quality etc. i could buy another fleet of pins!
People are gonna buy it no matter what. Look at the crappy JP and Elvira toppers for those prices to get a little extra experience of the game.
GB should have been done correctly from the beginning but after a few years when Dwight finally got around to it, the new code breathed some great new life into the game.
I'd like to see that happen across all of these $7-$10k pins we are buying from time to time. Of course, "it should all be free".
It would actually help retain resale value better.
Quoted from chooch:...and you are obsessed with Ben obsessing over JPop
Well played!
Quoted from wrb1977:...and you Ben are obsessed with JPop.
It's more of a hobby really.
Quoted from iceman44:If i had a nickel for every time i heard "vote with your wallets" over the past decade over bad pf's, code, quality etc. i could buy another fleet of pins!
People are gonna buy it no matter what. Look at the crappy JP and Elvira toppers for those prices to get a little extra experience of the game.
GB should have been done correctly from the beginning but after a few years when Dwight finally got around to it, the new code breathed some great new life into the game.
I'd like to see that happen across all of these $7-$10k pins we are buying from time to time. Of course, "it should all be free".
It is SUBSCRIPTION DLC that is the issue here. (Making people subscribe on a monthly or annual basis to obtain the downloadable content in order to obtain the full experience) It opens a dangerous precedent and a very slippery slope.
I tried to get Ben to move on and answer some legitimate questions I had for him regarding the Pinbar. He never answered and decided to continue his attacks on JPop. His choice...I will not comment on his personal vendetta again.
Quoted from wrb1977:I tried to get Ben to move on and answer some legitimate questions I had for him regarding the Pinbar. He never answered and decided to continue his attacks on JPop. His choice...I will not comment on his personal vendetta again.
I still find Ben's comments refreshing. Keep them coming Ben.
Quoted from PinSinner:It is SUBSCRIPTION DLC that is the issue here. (Making people subscribe on a monthly or annual basis to obtain the downloadable content in order to obtain the full experience) It opens a dangerous precedent and a very slippery slope.
I don't think so. There is a difference with offering 1 time for fee updates and monthly sub revenue.
That's essentially what they are doing now with these toppers. You get a $50 plastic piece of junk, like my JP topper and paid $950 for the stupid Goat mode.
I'd rather pay $500 for a massive code update on let's say my AS, TWD, GB or any other host of older games that would make me want to turn them on again. AFTER they reach that level of final code.
It could even be a range of pricing depending on the depth of the updates.
And nobody is holding a gun to anybodies head to actually purchase the update.
BUT, if i wanted to sell an older game it would create some additional future excitement for the buyers.
Otherwise, you end up with some high priced boat anchors/pieces of artwork.
Get OFF the rip off toppers and get ON a better game experience over the LONG RUN.
Gomez- Stern about year - I have read it multiple places - internet connectivity is coming to pinball (all the good & bad) - just a matter of when.
Article:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90369134/inside-the-race-to-finally-bring-pinball-into-the-internet-era
Part of Article.....
THE PINBALL PLATFORM WAR
Despite all the talk of pinball disconnecting us from our screens, Stern has been interested in internet connectivity as well. But as a self-funded company that almost went out of business during the 2008 economic recession, Stern had to be judicious about its investments.
“There isn’t any magical place in the sky where money falls out to do R&D,” Gomez says. “Growing the business of the company is the thing that sustains new technology initiatives, new product design initiatives, new evolutions for the product.”
Now, Stern is ready to tackle internet connectivity in earnest. The company designed its most recent pinball system, called Spike, to support online features through an add-on module, and plans to roll out some of those capabilities later this year. While Gomez is cagey about the details, he says it’s a “significant” offering, and the broad strokes sound similar to what Scorbit is doing, with social features for players and remote monitoring for operators.
“I can’t speak to what [Scorbit is] doing, or how they’re doing it,” he says. “But it doesn’t make any sense that you would take a new Stern pinball machine and apply their stuff to it, because our infrastructure’s going to be fairly robust and very functional.”
And another point - Stern & others are trying to grow there market with younger customers (not just with all us old guys).
Have fun reading.....
Quoted from cpr9999:“I can’t speak to what [Scorbit is] doing, or how they’re doing it,” he says. “But it doesn’t make any sense that you would take a new Stern pinball machine and apply their stuff to it, because our infrastructure’s going to be fairly robust and very functional.”
That's interesting in light of JJP's use of Scorbit.
Quoted from solarvalue:That's interesting in light of JJP's use of Scorbit.
I can't imagine trying to create a robust system, instead of just offloading the service to a third party with some simple API calls.
Quoted from wrb1977:I tried to get Ben to move on and answer some legitimate questions I had for him regarding the Pinbar. He never answered and decided to continue his attacks on JPop. His choice...I will not comment on his personal vendetta again.
The PinBar is a cool concept. But it's just another screen. It displays info and takes input, neither of those are an innovation. I like how it helps add players. But I'm worried with how much DR talks about narrative and how that might cause the game to stop constantly and request input on it. It's also why the lack of inserts on RAZA is concerning, means the game progression has to show up someplace other than the PF. Guarantee that's a headache for Bowden and whoever is coding it.
IMO the Stranger Things projection mapping is a much cooler innovation. (albeit an ancient concept) Granted the game isn't the best and the projector could be brighter (though it looks better in person) it's still a cool way to add diversity to an otherwise fairly static PF. It's like Pinball 2000 but doesn't add 200 lbs.
And it bears repeating that Millenials and Gen Z (the people actually plunking down location money) like pinball BECAUSE it is retro. I don't think boomer designers get this. They're in a mindset of "what do the kids like I know phones!" and we get Dialed In and The PinBar.
Young people are obsessed with VHS, tape decks, the 80s, vinyl records in the same way Boomers were obsessed with cowboys and colt pistols. The innovation shouldn't be a dumb LCD but how we can use today's amazing sensors and robotics to make the real physical PF come alive in a way that's more exciting and tangible than games on your phone.
DR has talked about everything BUT the game with RAZA. Hopefully their other stuff will be better. But this is a dud. There's no magic just a bunch of color and lights.
I still want to see a picture from a short player's perspective to see how much of the view is cut off by the pinbar. Can you see the ball in the shooter lane without leaning forward? How close is it to the bottom of the flippers?
Quoted from solarvalue:I like the animation when the ball only makes it half way up the ramp.
I'm glad you like it, because you're gonna see it a lot !
Quoted from nwpinball:are you sure it's free forever? Looking at the Scorbit website, they are currently offering one year free, it looks like after that it's a paid subscription at various levels.
I asked the same question .
It sounded too good to be true .
But yep , no subscription fees for JJP games .
IMG_20201124_203346 (resized).jpgQuoted from Kiwipinhead:We can do an Aus vs NZ comp
That would be great , just have to make sure there are no underarm incidents 
Quoted from benheck:RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors. Software as service/services is how MS and Apple broke the trillion $ market cap barrier.
Remember when spinners and lockdown bars were standard with any pinball machine sold?
What about $5500 for the game including lifetime code updates?
This model punishes early buyers. I pay $5000 for a game that may not be finished and need to pay $500 per year to ensure it has all the latest code.
Also, maybe this old website pricing was one of the things the “VIPs” gave feedback on and they have changed the pricing? Too early to take some beta website as fact.
Quoted from benheck:The PinBar is a cool concept. But it's just another screen. It displays info and takes input, neither of those are an innovation. I like how it helps add players. But I'm worried with how much DR talks about narrative and how that might cause the game to stop constantly and request input on it. It's also why the lack of inserts on RAZA is concerning, means the game progression has to show up someplace other than the PF. Guarantee that's a headache for Bowden and whoever is coding it.
IMO the Stranger Things projection mapping is a much cooler innovation. (albeit an ancient concept) Granted the game isn't the best and the projector could be brighter (though it looks better in person) it's still a cool way to add diversity to an otherwise fairly static PF. It's like Pinball 2000 but doesn't add 200 lbs.
And it bears repeating that Millenials and Gen Z (the people actually plunking down location money) like pinball BECAUSE it is retro. I don't think boomer designers get this. They're in a mindset of "what do the kids like I know phones!" and we get Dialed In and The PinBar.
Young people are obsessed with VHS, tape decks, the 80s, vinyl records in the same way Boomers were obsessed with cowboys and colt pistols. The innovation shouldn't be a dumb LCD but how we can use today's amazing sensors and robotics to make the real physical PF come alive in a way that's more exciting and tangible than games on your phone.
DR has talked about everything BUT the game with RAZA. Hopefully their other stuff will be better. But this is a dud. There's no magic just a bunch of color and lights.
I'd give 5 upvotes on this post if I could. Read the whole post again.
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