Thanks everbody for sharing pictures. Gorgeous looking machine. Looking forward to playing it in the future.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from benheck:RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors
bingo
Quoted from benheck:RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors.
I'd be disappointed if Robert didn't work in "blockchain" to his investors
Imagine the Safecracker mech on a pinball machine, and it ejected MuellerCoins
Quoted from benheck:DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors.
Hopefully the investors don't look at the things that killed Megatouch. Granted cell phone and tablet games were a bigger factor but still the subscription/have to be connected online thing was never a welcome change and they didn't last long after.
Quoted from John_I:Hopefully the investors don't look at the things that killed Megatouch. Granted cell phone and tablet games were a bigger factor but still the subscription/have to be connected online thing was never a welcome change and they didn't last long after.
yet works for touchtunes and golden tee...
Subscription could work if it was something new that suddenly *we can't live without* but there's nothing demonstrated here that's even at par with the existing pinball companies offerings. There's a game with no modes shown.
San Francisco, CA
Quoted from flynnibus:yet works for touchtunes and golden tee...
You get music in a jukebox and new courses in a golf game.
They re not gonna upload a new playfield in a dlc and if they add modes it won't be anywhere visible on the playfield. P3 was a much better platform for that as there is a whole digital part of the playfield but doing it on a good old pinball is fitting squares into circles.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:The thing I maybe like most on this lit up side panel
Yes, because so many of us see the sides of a game. Whether it's an arcade or home, I rarely see the sides of games (myself or friends). People that buy butter cabinets from spooky are typically people with way too much money, or someone in a new york apartment with only room for one game.
Quoted from benheck:Shh! You're not supposed to notice that. Look how awesome the cabinet and backglass look!
Here's hoping future DR games made by real designers can wow us in the with this sweet cabinet AND good gameplay which is all that matters in pinball.
I would love to see another Barry Oursler game. He hasn't had one of his designs reach production since 1996 Junkyard.
I still don’t get how the flashiest, rowdiest, most money throwing aroundest innovative and paradigm-shifting upstart in pinball history keeps doing such low-rent reveals.
This stream was the stream equivalent of
Four seasons landscaping.
This is the third amateur hour “reveal” of this prototype and each is more depressing than the last.
When the production games are revealed, what’s the setting gonna be? A storage facility and a carnival barker? The sidewalk in front of a for-lease former Radio Shack?
Quoted from adol75:You get music in a jukebox and new courses in a golf game.
They re not gonna upload a new playfield in a dlc and if they add modes it won't be anywhere visible on the playfield.
I think you misunderstand the point.
Touchtunes and GT *ONLY WORK* when the operator connects the games online and pays the subscription fees/vendor cuts.
It's not about DLC - it's commentary about the commercial model where they mandate connectivity and subscription services (and the Megatouch example)
You don't get new courses for your GT by paying your IGT cuts... they happily charge you $800 for the next year's 'edition' of the game... and you still pay your cut per every credit paid into the game.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I still don’t get how the flashiest, rowdiest, most money throwing aroundest innovative and paradigm-shifting upstart in pinball history keeps doing such low-rent reveals.
This stream was the stream equivalent of
Four seasons landscaping.
This is the third amateur hour “reveal” of this prototype and each is more depressing than the last.
When the production games are revealed, what’s the setting gonna be? A storage facility and a carnival barker? The sidewalk in front of a for-lease former Radio Shack?
If the setting is a storage facility, that may mean they have games to ship. Doubt we will see a production reveal!
Quoted from benheck:Shh! You're not supposed to notice that. Look how awesome the cabinet and backglass look!
Here's hoping future DR games made by real designers can wow us in the with this sweet cabinet AND good gameplay which is all that matters in pinball.
RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors. Software as service/services is how MS and Apple broke the trillion $ market cap barrier. It's the future way corporations plan to bleed us dry.
Let's face it Pinheads did this to themselves by proving there's nothing too stupid they won't buy. $5k couch pieces, $800 flat plastic toppers, rugs...
Yes, unfortunately pinheads have given the impression they will buy anything.
Beatles at $25000? Two please.
That said, once any manufacturers start with DLC I am permanently out on new games.
Quoted from frolic:There's a game with no modes shown.
That's because you need to buy the DLC first 
Quoted from Shapeshifter:That said, once any manufacturers start with DLC I am permanently out on new games.
Stern introduced the idea to accompany their JP topper for a whopping $600.
Düsseldorf
I wonder if the pinbar has options for a user to pay for credits with a credit-card/NFC. If it has all the other tech, why not? And then maybe deeproot takes a small % to handle the fees and the convenience. Software as a service!
Or maybe it would be neat if as a player, I pay deeproot $20 a month or whatever and then I can go put my phone on a deeproot game, it logs me in, gives me some credits (and a cut to the operator), and I play for a bit before walking away with the rest of my credits.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I wonder if the pinbar has options for a user to pay for credits with a credit-card/NFC. If it has all the other tech, why not? And then maybe deeproot takes a small % to handle the fees and the convenience. Software as a service!
Or maybe it would be neat if as a player, I pay deeproot $20 a month or whatever and then I can go put my phone on a deeproot game, it logs me in, gives me some credits (and a cut to the operator), and I play for a bit before walking away with the rest of my credits.
None of that sounds neat. IMO.
Quoted from ForceFlow:That's because you need to buy the DLC first
Stern introduced the idea to accompany their JP topper for a whopping $600.
And unfortunately it sold, so what can you do?!
Quoted from Roostking:None of that sounds neat. IMO.
Disagree then. I'm not saying it's necessarily a viable business model or anything. But movie theaters started experimenting with monthly fees and unlimited movies to good effect. (MoviePass went down in a blaze of glory, but theater chains were starting their own versions before the whole covid thing really derailed their long term plans)
If deeproot is going to build all this tech for tracking players, they should fully leverage that investment by creating as many additional revenue streams as possible. Let me be a deepUser™ for $15/month. Give me a few "free" credits each day or they expire. If I use those credits, the op's machine I'm on gets that payment. Now the "free" credits encourage me to go out on location, and once I'm out of free credits...maybe I buy some more. Offer microtransactions like pay an extra dollar and every ball starts as a multiball.
I get why my ideas may upset others. But I don't think deeproot is going to last, so I'd love to see them throw as many ideas to the wall as possible.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I still don’t get how the flashiest, rowdiest, most money throwing aroundest innovative and paradigm-shifting upstart in pinball history keeps doing such low-rent reveals.
This stream was the stream equivalent of
Four seasons landscaping.
This is the third amateur hour “reveal” of this prototype and each is more depressing than the last.
When the production games are revealed, what’s the setting gonna be? A storage facility and a carnival barker? The sidewalk in front of a for-lease former Radio Shack?
Ouch, that's kind of harsh. 
I appreciate the crew from Fliptronic taking the time to set up the stream at such short notice. Sure beats a couple of minutes of shaky cell phone footage.
Look how long it's taken JJP to do a proper reveal with GNR. Reveals from the other manufacturers are hit or miss too.
Remember when WOZ was first getting made? Some of those 'reveals' were painful and nowhere near the quality of this RAZA stream, but I was always happy to see proof of life and progress.
Let’s face it pinballers SAAS (software as a service) is here to stay! Profits & margins are fantastic for companies.
It is the money grab from all industries right now - they are finding ways to take advantage of it. Started with cell phone and video games. It is spreading fast (Microsoft products) and is moving into industrial companies now too.
Bottom line - you can say NO not interested and I won’t buy a machine. Guess you are saying you will be finding another hobby. You say buy used - good luck - these companies will do the same for used assets.
(How many people spoke with their wallets on playfield issues, etc — not many sales are up!!)
It is a matter of time. As internet capabilities are built into our pinball machines these companies will “enable” software services. More code, special modes, better special topper interaction - and you WILL pay per use/upgrade OR for a 1yr subscription.
I personally don’t like it - but I am aware it is happening everywhere and growing quickly. Heck I even personally witness people on Pinside saying let’s “pool our money” to get more code on games.
Reality sucks - but you will get used to it.
(FYI don’t shoot the messenger - just informing people).
Quoted from TreyBo69:But movie theaters started experimenting with monthly fees and unlimited movies to good effect.
I agree, and belong to the Cinemark club because I think it's a good value that saves me money.
Can DR find ways to bring enough value to their service for people to pay up? I'd say pinball owners, as a whole, are pretty free with their money so the bar might not be very high.
It's an interesting question....can deeproot get a lot pinballs out there which come with a mandatory online connection and payments, a'la Golden Tee? Probably not into homes, but into bars and such? My guess is no, because bars have the option of better pinballs that do not require an online connection. Golden Tee did not have the competition of a better golf game that worked offline.
As someone who has been using Adobe for 24 years I can attest to the shift. Used to be you'd buy the package once, then upgrade every 3-4 years for $600. Now you pay $600 every year. And the software changes a lot less than your average video game DLC.
I think DLC could work as I've said many times before. Add the 3rd movie to Star Trek, add more seasons to GOT, R&m, TWD. Licensing that extra content certainly isn't free but if there was financial incentive the pin companies might do it.
Maybe the DR plan covers all games you own. If that means DLC support for say 3 titles then it becomes a better deal. But does the content relock if you cancel? That's what Xbox Game Pass does.
Another question is does the content become BS filler? This is what happens to every "live service" video game that isn't popular. A hit like COD Warzone keeps getting new stuff but a flop like BFV gets dumb challenges like "try and get 10 headshots between now and Friday"
It makes sense to have daily/weekly/monthly goals for users. The video game industry uses it to great effect in the freemium mobile space. The daily sign in bonus, completing your objectives, and not losing any streaks for logins/goals/membership/rank/etc... the phycological effect is undeniable. It also helps make engagement tracking look better and provides more bodies for stuff like online play, if they go down that rabbit hole.
And this could be fun for location or home players depending on the goals/objectives/incentive system.
Combine that with content that isn't always available, like play during the week of Thanksgiving and turkeys show up in some animations, and that's a good FOMO recipe. (Of course I realize how silly it sounds to talk about location play at these times)
Unknown
Quoted from TreyBo69:Let me be a deepUser™ for $15/month.
I have found it to be a universal business truth that the more a company uses ™ in their marketing, the less successful they will be. It’s the art of protecting some catchphrase no one gives a damn about.
Pincompetent™
Quoted from phoenixpin:I have found it to be a universal business truth that the more a company uses ™ in their marketing, the less successful they will be. It’s the art of protecting some catchphrase no one gives a damn about.
Pincompetent™
It's why I learned the keyboard shortcut for ™ for when I feel like subtly mocking them
Quoted from sven:That's a question I thought of as well (not a very important one to me, for I don't intend to buy a DR game (though that can change))
Coming to all manufacturers soon - don’t think just DR
Quoted from Jvspin:I agree, and belong to the Cinemark club because I think it's a good value that saves me money.
Can DR find ways to bring enough value to their service for people to pay up? I'd say pinball owners, as a whole, are pretty free with their money so the bar might not be very high.
Yes, but you arent buying the theater, and then a subscription to play movies, in said theater. Thats the difference.
This DR DLC is totally different than the software that Stern provides with their toppers. Stern toppers have node boards that require software to drive the motors and lights and add sounds for the game to support the topper. In the JP case there is an extra mode that takes advantage of lights on the topper. BFD. That is no more DLC than the extra software required to support the features on a Premium/LE vs a Pro. Extra features means extra software. BKSoR Premium and LE download software to support the upper playfield and catapult multiball, so that is DLC? Of course not.
The DLC that DR is talking about goes way deeper and is even worse apparently than these stupid apps that keep nagging for more money. This is paying for updates and modes that Stern or JJP would consider to be your rights to receive as the owner for FREE even years after buying the game. Look at GoT or even POTC. They both had huge updates after the fact.
This DLC is what lets them sell a game for $5000 knowing expensive DLC will make them money down the road. Sort of like selling a game console at or below cost knowing the real money maker is in the royalties for the software that people will buy.
For $50 a month there better be a very well written, iron clad list of what the minimum amount of DLC that will be available each month. What if they just provide a few bug fixes once a month for the next six months? Sounds like you are locked in for at least a year, so that $5000 machine is actually $5600 to start with.
Quoted from benheck:As someone who has been using Adobe for 24 years I can attest to the shift. Used to be you'd buy the package once, then upgrade every 3-4 years for $600. Now you pay $600 every year. And the software changes a lot less than your average video game DLC.
I got a preview of this model nearly 20 years ago, during an MS launch event. They passed out Office XP Subscriptions... and if you're wondering why you never heard of this, it's because it was clear to us grunts the infrastructure to support this model was woefully nonexistent then... but damn if it wasn't clear this was what "big tech's" endgame was going to be for the future. It just took the buildout to the mobile/smartphone revolution a few years later to make it feasible. Anyway, the CDs MS handed back then out are one of my favorite / least-favorite tech mementoes, as a warning of what was to come:
Didn't Google just significantly nerf their free Photos service to push a premium tier? I never invested my own workflow into it, but folks who did are now scrambling. Same as how you YouTube is almost unwatchable on native ("smart device") clients owing to ads - they really want that sweet sweet subscription revenue. Don't ever get too invested. And adobe can suck it... when my Windows10 finally killed my old Photoshop, I finally swtiched to GIMP 
*AHEM* but all of that is to say on some level, from a 2020+ tech playbook sense, it makes sense that Deeproot would be laying the groundwork for this model. Yet for a "new pinball company" it's a boneheaded move. The big tech companies locked us dumb consumers into that model by following the drug pusher MO: get you hooked, then up the charge. Stern is going down that route too... but the commonality being the companies' reputation and perceived support longevity. Deeproot has no reputation to stand on, so why would anyone subscribe to this?
The pinbar is a meh development. I don't hate it, but it's interesting, and could be a positive differentiator if implemented well.
The rest of the platform seems like a nice start. Not earth-shattering or revolutionary, but I can see the positive values there.
The gameplay itself was... not the most captivating in that stream, but may have potential. Let Jack get his hands on it for a proper reveal.
Quoted from benheck:As someone who has been using Adobe for 24 years I can attest to the shift. Used to be you'd buy the package once, then upgrade every 3-4 years for $600. Now you pay $600 every year. And the software changes a lot less than your average video game DLC.
I think DLC could work as I've said many times before. Add the 3rd movie to Star Trek, add more seasons to GOT, R&m, TWD. Licensing that extra content certainly isn't free but if there was financial incentive the pin companies might do it.
Maybe the DR plan covers all games you own. If that means DLC support for say 3 titles then it becomes a better deal. But does the content relock if you cancel? That's what Xbox Game Pass does.
Another question is does the content become BS filler? This is what happens to every "live service" video game that isn't popular. A hit like COD Warzone keeps getting new stuff but a flop like BFV gets dumb challenges like "try and get 10 headshots between now and Friday"
It is unfortunate. I bought my last copy of photoshop (CS5) and I refuse to upgrade. I know it's 10 years old but it still does the job. I also have office 2010 and no matter how many times the red banner comes up "we can no longer offer patches" I have no reason to update to a modern version of office.
Quoted from Roostking:Yes, but you arent buying the theater, and then a subscription to play movies, in said theater. Thats the difference.
I think you're confused? No one was saying you should have to pay credits to play a game setup in your house.
It's a hypothetical location play scenario. The operator puts a machine on location and they join the deeproot operator service or whatever. That could enable a bunch of additional features/payment options/monetization paths. And location players would be incentivized to join the service for player tracking, tournaments, easier payment options (millennials barely carry cash, let alone quarters), etc... with a paid tear that gives some benefits like free digital credit tokens
DLC won't work with the pin crowd. Just watch. Look at the themes: these are old guys with cash that have learned to save and not sign up for shit that bleeds money from their account. The rich guys will buy anything, but it's the more common buyer that keeps these companies going. Not all companies will do it, and buyers will flock to those companies.
Quoted from toyotaboy:It is unfortunate. I bought my last copy of photoshop (CS5) and I refuse to upgrade. I know it's 10 years old but it still does the job. I also have office 2010 and no matter how many times the red banner comes up "we can no longer offer patches" I have no reason to update to a modern version of office.
Run it in a VM and who cares about security patches.
Quoted from screaminr:Guns N Roses includes Scorbit with no subscription fees ever .
At this point in time you can play with up to eight people on the Internet .
Now that's innovation I like to see .
Yeah, it's a cool step forward from what Dutch Pinball did with Bride of Pinbot 2.0, although are you sure it's free forever? Looking at the Scorbit website, they are currently offering one year free, it looks like after that it's a paid subscription at various levels.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:And unfortunately it sold, so what can you do?!
If supreme has proven anything, it's that some people will buy anything from a brand they follow and pay good money for it, even if it's just a brick.
if pinside has proven anything, its that some people will pay good money for anything with four legs, even if it shoots like a brick.
Deeproot certainly seems to have gone all-in on their vision. This is some solid road map, paved in concrete with no room to maneuver.
I just asked my wife how much my kids have spent on DLC in Minecraft and Fortnight .I wish I hadn’t asked her .Your right we’re screwed !
I’ve been playing the Williams Pin App and havnt put a single dime in it I just wait until I win shit .If it was like that where you had a choice to pay or earn it I’d be fine with it .
Yah, if Deeproot is subscription base, and I feel like I need to pay $50 a month to enjoy their games, then it's a solid no for me and I will never look at Deeproot again as an option. If others follow, it will also be a no from me, as well and explore other options. It's okay if I never purchase another pin again. More money in my pocket. Adobe tried the same thing, years ago, never purchased Adobe again and I still make graphics. My cable company started nickle and diming me for everything, cancelled them too. My phone company followed suit. I don't think these companies realize, I don't need them, they need me. I don't even spend $50 a month at an arcade, so why would I own a pin at this point paying at least $5000 upfront plus now I'm making payments on it for as long as I "own" it. Not making sense. If you roll over and accept this...good for you. If I'm paying subscription, I'll go to a barcade, but this will also hurt their bottom dollar, and pinball industry, that is doing well now, will hit another wall if they all follow suit. That's my prediction. Also I believe DR, will sink before they can even swim if they are trying to pull wool over peoples eyes this early. They already have a bad taste in peoples mouth, giving them more ammunition with this subscription BS will be the final nail. I'll wait to see what they are all about when they announce the game officially.
Quoted from screaminr:Guns N Roses includes Scorbit with no subscription fees ever .
At this point in time you can play with up to eight people on the Internet .
Now that's innovation I like to see .
We can do an Aus vs NZ comp 
London
Quoted from Pinballs:Learnings-
General: Don't buy a Net-connected pin.
Specific: Avoid Deeproot. More like a deep rogering...
In near future every new pin will be Net-connected for updates etc.
Get on board folks.
The very few Pinsiders will leave the industry - most will concede. The next shiny object will come and they will reason the purchase. Human nature. Look at the example above - how many people are running old version of Office? When that Pinsiders PC dies they will update!
Question is .... is how far will these companies go? How big subscription price will be paid? They will start small and increase.
honestly a chimpanzee and two trainees will be able to hack the DLC - like the massive use of upgraded stern code with audio and video assets.
but honestly you bozos saying pinheads will pay anything - its just nonsense.
its like saying petrolheads will buy anything - so if only Bugatti sold their car for 4500 those bastards!
beatles sales were poor.
topper sales would be factored into the overall plan for JP2, Elvira etc.
You can buy modded consoles, everdrives etc with every game ever made for that console. And that's Sony and Microsoft consoles, not Mr Amateur Hour. Yes, this will be hacked, haha.
But as for Net-connected- fairly pointless. If I update that way, fine. I'll add pin wifi to my other 1,000 wifi-enabled devices. However, what I won't do with pinball wifi is pay a subscription. Deeproot clearly craves the subscription model, as you'd expect from a predatory shark. But this fish doesn't intend to be eaten.
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