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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 13,784 posts
  • 869 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 20 minutes ago by benheck
  • Topic is favorited by 231 Pinsiders

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17 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 13784 posts in this topic. You are on page 259 of 276.
#12901 37 days ago
Quoted from RandyV:

Time to add RADCAZJJWMCGBHOWPAWIHHGA to the Pinside game acronym database....

Or maybe we can abbreviate the acronym to something .....
Maybe this ? CLSTRFCK

14
#12902 36 days ago

Deeproot needs A New Start

pasted_image (resized).png
#12903 36 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I think most here like the Arcade Edition best (since it looks the most normal) and I‘d not throw additional money in at this point.
I hope they don‘t want you to make that decision NOW???

No, pretty much a decision when games are ready to ship.
The lack of specifics provided for the different models assumes there are a good many decisions still up in the air.

#12904 36 days ago
Quoted from mr9865:

Deeproot needs A New Start[quoted image]

Anus tart

#12905 36 days ago

This thread is proof humans enjoy train wrecks. Why do I keep coming back here?

#12906 36 days ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Why do I keep coming back here?

I ask myself that same question all the time.

I think I will just keep watching the marketplace ads, and the first time I see a Deep Root game listed for sale, then I will come back here. (and skip probably 5000 pages or more by that time, just to see what is current opinion of a game for sale on the market).

#12907 36 days ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

This thread is proof humans enjoy train wrecks. Why do I keep coming back here?

You are human?

10
#12908 36 days ago
Quoted from jorro:

You are human?

Or are we dancer ?

#12909 36 days ago
Quoted from mr9865:

Deeproot needs A New Start[quoted image]

Oh Tobias... you blow hard.

#12910 36 days ago

That looks like a great christmas party for a company that hadn't sold anything yet and still won't for at least 2 years after that.

#12911 36 days ago
Quoted from boo32:

"Some modes and features will require an extra cost or a support plan. More on this will be announced when we start taking orders."

I keep reading that quote and trying to decipher it. Does anyone have a serious guess as to what modes and features will cost extra or need a support plan?

#12912 36 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Does anyone have a serious guess as to what modes and features will cost extra or need a support plan?

From the preview article, it mentioned a "push to troubleshoot" type feature, where you'd be connected to someone at Deeproot, or at least that was how I read it. Think OnStar. Subscription based diagnostic support.

Just a guess.

10
#12913 36 days ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

From the preview article, it mentioned a "push to troubleshoot" type feature, where you'd be connected to someone at Deeproot, or at least that was how I read it. Think OnStar. Subscription based diagnostic support.
Just a guess.

That’s definitely a stupid enough idea for it to be a deep root innovation.

#12914 36 days ago

Maybe the Pinbar will have an idiot light.

#12915 36 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I keep reading that quote and trying to decipher it. Does anyone have a serious guess as to what modes and features will cost extra or need a support plan?

Since you shall be able to login into your account and share savestates, highscores and other things that needs to run on an infrastructure that will only be free to a certain degree of features, just like your Xbox Live or PSN.

If Deeproot ever manages to become a successfull player in the business and you have a range of machines on location a "support plan" for beein able to manage audits online is a no brainer. (But until they come this far that service better be free.)

Regarding "Extra Modes" that can refer to DLC (extra cost) or online multiplayer (support plan).

We don't know yet, and I bet they don't know either.

First things first: Get a machine out!

#12916 36 days ago

Probably going to charge you something like $99 per mode to unlock them, and they aren't transferable to the next buyer should you sell the machine.

-8
#12917 36 days ago

I know everyone in pinball hates the entire concept of DLC, but if done right, it could be really cool. Adding extra modes and such would be BS (the way Stern is handling recent toppers). WAY too slippery of a slope since it currently takes every manufacturer years to "finish" the code. When is the code "final" and when do you start charging for extra stuff that people feel should have been in from the beginning. This would be a shitshow.

However, if you could download entirely alternate rulesets as DLC, that would be awesome. Like in AIQ, you're fighting to keep Thanos from getting the stones. What if next year Stern came out with a DLC that changed all the rules and modes where now you play AS Thanos (and there was a setting to switch back and forth between games)? It's obvious this was not part of the original code, but would be a really cool addition that I would pay for.

For whatever people thing about Multimorphic (I love them) one of the cool things about their setup is you can buy software-only games that repurpose existing playfields in completely different ways. If the regular manufacturers instituted DLC in this way I'd be 100% for it.

Is that what I think deeproot means by costs associated with future modes? I highly doubt it. Probably more along the lines of jpop's Magic Girl is broken as shit, but you can pay to add the features that should have been there from the start.

#12918 36 days ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

I know everyone in pinball hates the entire concept of DLC, but if done right, it could be really cool. Adding extra modes and such would be BS (the way Stern is handling recent toppers). WAY too slippery of a slope since it currently takes every manufacturer years to "finish" the code. When is the code "final" and when do you start charging for extra stuff that people feel should have been in from the beginning. This would be a shitshow.
However, if you could download entirely alternate rulesets as DLC, that would be awesome. Like in AIQ, you're fighting to keep Thanos from getting the stones. What if next year Stern came out with a DLC that changed all the rules and modes where now you play AS Thanos (and there was a setting to switch back and forth between games)? It's obvious this was not part of the original code, but would be a really cool addition that I would pay for.
For whatever people thing about Multimorphic (I love them) one of the cool things about their setup is you can buy software-only games that repurpose existing playfields in completely different ways. If the regular manufacturers instituted DLC in this way I'd be 100% for it.
Is that what I think deeproot means by costs associated with future modes? I highly doubt it. Probably more along the lines of jpop's Magic Girl is broken as shit, but you can pay to add the features that should have been there from the start.

The reason why Deeproot is trying to go down this road, and if they can get some adoption, it's the right business move for them and the investors, and all pinball for that matter when you consider the possibilities.

It's extremely difficult in ANY business to make it selling widgets and hardware only. On a huge scale, look at Apple and Microsoft.

Recurring revenue on an installed product user base is smart.

When i look around at the money that people spend, myself included, on let's say $1,000 Elvira toppers that you can't even buy right now, i don't have any doubt that people would spend extra $$$ on the DLC model.

People will kick, scream and bitch but it's coming at some point, from Stern too.

Apple has a 1.6 billion installed user base that they keep dropping monthly revenue streams across and call it "services revenue". It has caused the stock to explode.

How many games does Stern have? How about have older games revived by new code? The HARDWARE is getting to the place $$$$ wise that everybody has to look at ways to get MORE out of it.

Like it or not, it's coming.

#12919 36 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The reason why Deeproot is trying to go down this road, and if they can get some adoption, it's the right business move for them and the investors, and all pinball for that matter when you consider the possibilities.
It's extremely difficult in ANY business to make it selling widgets and hardware only. On a huge scale, look at Apple and Microsoft.
Recurring revenue on an installed product user base is smart.
When i look around at the money that people spend, myself included, on let's say $1,000 Elvira toppers that you can't even buy right now, i don't have any doubt that people would spend extra $$$ on the DLC model.
People will kick, scream and bitch but it's coming at some point, from Stern too.
Apple has a 1.6 billion installed user base that they keep dropping monthly revenue streams across and call it "services revenue". It has caused the stock to explode.
How many games does Stern have? How about have older games revived by new code? The HARDWARE is getting to the place $$$$ wise that everybody has to look at ways to get MORE out of it.
Like it or not, it's coming.

Golden Tee. $99 to Incredible Tech every year. Online network etc.

Gonna pay for that in the future

#12920 36 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I keep reading that quote and trying to decipher it. Does anyone have a serious guess as to what modes and features will cost extra or need a support plan?

I think it's just a CYA statement that suggests there may be future features that they will hold back and not make software freely available.

As with common with most software these days... 'Fixes maybe free, but feature upgrades require you to be under contract'. Imagine Deeproot trying to sell you an annual subscription that will include all these online features of the game... and that could include not just serviceability things, but also game enhancements delivered via software'

#12921 36 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

As long as his epic TOPcast exists, so too shall he!

Was that the one where he talked about Harry Williams testing his self-designed torpedoes in the Chicago river?

It's been a while since I listened to those, but I may have to revisit!

#12922 36 days ago
Quoted from mr9865:

Deeproot needs A New Start[quoted image]

what is an anus tart?

#12923 36 days ago
Sean Connery Jeopardy (resized).jpg
#12924 36 days ago

As much as I hate the thought of "subscriptions" this is the world we live in. Websites created with Wordpress have plug ins that on their face look like a one time purchase only to find out that eventually Wordpress made a change that broke the plugin and you have to buy a new one. Microsoft is pushing for O365 subscriptions. Adobe is now pushing for it heavily as well. I hate it honestly but I can see why DR is taking this potential stance.
I've often wondered why companies don't hire someone to create new code for old POPULAR titles and sell the upgrade code. Maybe it's an IP thing when it comes to Williams stuff but Stern could easily put someone on LOTR to build new modes and such and the public would go nuts for it.

THEN comes the argument which I also understand. I shouldn't have to pay for anything extra for this machine.

#12925 36 days ago

Half the options in my car are subscription based, you can’t Escape it these days

#12926 36 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

I've often wondered why companies don't hire someone to create new code for old POPULAR titles and sell the upgrade code. Maybe it's an IP thing when it comes to Williams stuff but Stern could easily put someone on LOTR to build new modes and such and the public would go nuts for it.
THEN comes the argument which I also understand. I shouldn't have to pay for anything extra for this machine.

From a business standpoint, my guess is that they don't want to deal with customer service issues of having customers replace roms; the seemingly simple task of popping a memory stick in for updates in modern games already poses a ton of issues.

It would also be nearly impossible to copy protect the older style roms as far as I know.

Then there's the licensing issues for even the older games.

I'm just VERY happy that there are a handful of hobbyists re-doing code for games; LW3, BW, DESW, etc. I support those guys!

#12927 36 days ago
Quoted from jorro:

You are human?

Good point, probably not

#12928 36 days ago
A864C0E7-DB54-4EE6-9B63-B31D4EB6EA5A (resized).jpeg
14
#12929 36 days ago
20201022_224804 (resized).jpg
#12930 36 days ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

I know everyone in pinball hates the entire concept of DLC, but if done right, it could be really cool. Adding extra modes and such would be BS (the way Stern is handling recent toppers). WAY too slippery of a slope since it currently takes every manufacturer years to "finish" the code. When is the code "final" and when do you start charging for extra stuff that people feel should have been in from the beginning. This would be a shitshow.
However, if you could download entirely alternate rulesets as DLC, that would be awesome. Like in AIQ, you're fighting to keep Thanos from getting the stones. What if next year Stern came out with a DLC that changed all the rules and modes where now you play AS Thanos (and there was a setting to switch back and forth between games)? It's obvious this was not part of the original code, but would be a really cool addition that I would pay for.
For whatever people thing about Multimorphic (I love them) one of the cool things about their setup is you can buy software-only games that repurpose existing playfields in completely different ways. If the regular manufacturers instituted DLC in this way I'd be 100% for it.
Is that what I think deeproot means by costs associated with future modes? I highly doubt it. Probably more along the lines of jpop's Magic Girl is broken as shit, but you can pay to add the features that should have been there from the start.

wrong (resized).jpg
#12931 35 days ago

I would like to see the CBA for DLC on a pinball machine. The number of units of a typical pinball machine sold is negligible when compared to video games, MS office products, mainstream consumer products, etc. And, of course, not everyone would purchase the content. The cost to develop, document and support the code is not insignificant....and, as someone who spent many years in the software business including managing both development and support, I can tell you the bane of our existence was variable customer configurations. It is a pain (read costly) to support. Maybe the numbers work out but with mainstream manufacturers having a difficult enough time cranking out complete, bug-free code, I'm not sure a great business case exists.

#12932 35 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I would like to see the CBA for DLC on a pinball machine. The number of units of a typical pinball machine sold is negligible when compared to video games, MS office products, mainstream consumer products, etc. And, of course, not everyone would purchase the content. The cost to develop, document and support the code is not insignificant....and, as someone who spent many years in the software business including managing both development and support, I can tell you the bane of our existence was variable customer configurations. It is a pain (read costly) to support. Maybe the numbers work out but with mainstream manufacturers having a difficult enough time cranking out complete, bug-free code, I'm not sure a great business case exists.

but there is room for online services at an monthly cost + doing CC sales.

#12933 35 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I would like to see the CBA for DLC on a pinball machine. The number of units of a typical pinball machine sold is negligible when compared to video games, MS office products, mainstream consumer products, etc. And, of course, not everyone would purchase the content. The cost to develop, document and support the code is not insignificant....and, as someone who spent many years in the software business including managing both development and support, I can tell you the bane of our existence was variable customer configurations. It is a pain (read costly) to support. Maybe the numbers work out but with mainstream manufacturers having a difficult enough time cranking out complete, bug-free code, I'm not sure a great business case exists.

It’s simple... no contract, no code. You have contract? Upgrade to latest code.

90 day warranty with free code updates during that time.

Code not done? Just extend free upgrades until you have a defendable point

Online features gated by active contract

You don’t need millions of units to support this model. It’s basically the model used by everyone who makes commercial gear.

#12934 35 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It’s simple... no contract, no code. You have contract? Upgrade to latest code.
90 day warranty with free code updates during that time.
Code not done? Just extend free upgrades until you have a defendable point
Online features gated by active contract
You don’t need millions of units to support this model. It’s basically the model used by everyone who makes commercial gear.

Well, it's clear I don't know what "commercial gear" encompasses. In any case, there is an inverse relationship with # of subscribers and what the subscription price needs to be. That said, you do raise another interesting question. How is the defendable point determined? One need only look at the myriad threads regarding incomplete code to see that the defendable point from the manufacturer's point of view is not in synch with a good many consumers and, in a number of cases, that disconnect lingers for years.

Regardless of how that point is defined and the consumers acceptance of that definition, additional content generates additional expense (as well as the opportunity cost of not deploying those resources on other, potentially more lucrative endeavors). Hence why I'd love to see the actual CBA showing the relationship between number of subscribers and the subscription price. Can it work with pinball? Beat's me.

#12935 35 days ago

I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.

The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.

Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

23
#12936 35 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.
The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.
Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

I'll have to add that to the list of reasons why I like Charlie....

#12937 35 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.
The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.
Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

So is that the reason why Jetsons has so many empty spots with no toys? Lol

#12938 35 days ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Well, it's clear I don't know what "commercial gear" encompasses.

I was responding to your point of "I can tell you the bane of our existence was variable customer configurations. It is a pain (read costly) to support."

The model above is how you narrow the number of configurations you have to deal with. "Oh you are 3yrs out of date... we don't support that". When you only deal with people within the recent deployments you test with through strong arming what you support.. you minimize the problem you were talking about. You say if you want support, you gotta be running versions A or A minus 1, etc.

These aren't devices where the customers are bringing their own platform, their own OS, numerous revisions, etc. It's closed platform YOU control.

Commercial gear being every piece of equipment out there these days that includes software. Be it an AV switch, a networked printer, or whatever. Thousands of companies support the software of their product without needing the scale of millions of units, or even hundreds of thousands of units.

Quoted from Oldgoat:

In any case, there is an inverse relationship with # of subscribers and what the subscription price needs to be. That said, you do raise another interesting question. How is the defendable point determined?

Simple... what hill you are willing to die on.

#12939 35 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.
The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.
Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

I would NEVER buy a game with DLC incorporated, even if it was Keith Elwin working for JJP. Just like I won't buy a Stern game with a mono target, even if Keith designed it. There's nothing broken about buying a complete game when you put the cash down. We tolerate code updates, but Stern pushed the limit on that one... If that's the way the industry goes, I'll enjoy everything made up to that point. Thank god there are enough games for a lifetime.

#12940 35 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I would NEVER buy a game with DLC incorporated, even if it was Keith Elwin working for JJP. Just like I won't buy a Stern game with a mono target, even if Keith designed it. There's nothing broken about buying a complete game when you put the cash down. We tolerate code updates, but Stern pushed the limit on that one... If that's the way the industry goes, I'll enjoy everything made up to that point. Thank god there are enough games for a lifetime.

Never say never bro!

Lots of people here said they’d never pay $10 k for a game either, and they are lining up to buy em as a consolation prize cause they got “burned” out of
The $13k version!

#12941 35 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Never say never bro!
Lots of people here said they’d never pay $10 k for a game either, and they are lining up to buy em as a consolation prize cause they got “burned” out of
The $13k version!

True. Just speaking for myself. I wanted jp2 sooo bad, but it had a mono target. I had self control and voted with my wallet. I'll do the same for DLC.

Your point about price might be apples to oranges as well. I paid 12.5k(canadian pesos) for DILE, but I would never have paid 10k if it had DLC. I'd rather pay more money for a complete game than less money and have to worry about purchasing more shit.

#12942 35 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

Not to argue your point; just that you could have picked a better example. TWD has been awful for years. The last five season will make your eyes bleed they are so bad.

#12943 35 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I wanted jp2 sooo bad, but it had a mono target.

At first I was like, "no it doesn't," but I guess you mean the raptor gate? Lol, what a hill to die on. Glad I didn't deprive myself of owning & playing maybe the greatest pin of all time because a standup target is two targets wide. Actually looks better mono, gives the impression of like, an actual gate. "World under glass" as the zealots say.

You could always get a pro and drink yourself to sleep every night to forget you're missing the gate.

#12944 35 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

At first I was like, "no it doesn't," but I guess you mean the raptor gate? Lol, what a hill to die on. Glad I didn't deprive myself of owning & playing maybe the greatest pin of all time because a standup target is two targets wide. Actually looks better mono, gives the impression of like, an actual gate. "World under glass" as the zealots say.
You could always get a pro and drink yourself to sleep every night to forget you're missing the gate.

Gategate?

#12945 35 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Simple... what hill you are willing to die on.

Yep, definitely Sophie's choice

#12946 35 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

At first I was like, "no it doesn't," but I guess you mean the raptor gate? Lol, what a hill to die on. Glad I didn't deprive myself of owning & playing maybe the greatest pin of all time because a standup target is two targets wide. Actually looks better mono, gives the impression of like, an actual gate. "World under glass" as the zealots say.
You could always get a pro and drink yourself to sleep every night to forget you're missing the gate.

Our I could just be happy to disagree with you

#12947 34 days ago

Pinbar

681B9653-14B6-402A-8A8D-B8E313A76F91 (resized).png
#12948 34 days ago

Yup - that looks a lot like the pinbar.

I still think it would be better served as a cooler lid for holding cold beverages, frozen ice cream confections or something else you don't need in a pinball machine. Ha !

#12949 34 days ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Pinbar
[quoted image]

So... even their one innovation isn’t innovative?

#12950 34 days ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Pinbar
[quoted image]

Looks like prior art to me.

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