(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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#1201 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Is that really exciting? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they won't remain a total pile of excrement.

Want to guess what I have right now from Zidware...? Give you 1 guess.
How much did you have invested with John?

#1202 1 year ago
Quoted from PinBackpacker:

It's not going to cost anyone anything to find out.

Perhaps

#1203 1 year ago

I don’t know as much as a lot of people on here about deeproot, but they seem...well...very sure of themselves. I hope they produce, and succeed. This will be an interesting follow. But when someone comes out promising as much as they are, it doesn’t usually end that well.

#1204 1 year ago

According to this article from Aug. 2016-

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/news/2016/08/23/local-investment-fund-betting-on-life-insurance.html

"In 2014, the company tried to sell two different funds, all debt offerings with various minimum investments to no avail. In 2015, the company issued deeproot Pinball LLC, which offered $6 million of equity with a minimum investment of $25,000 but hasn't reported raising any money for that either. That same year, the company attempted to sell another equity offering called deeproot 575 fund LLC but didn't attract any investors."

But apparently they had attracted some investors and raised a few million dollars betting on life insurance.

Not really finding anymore recent information, but it sounds like they must have really turned the corner since then.

#1205 1 year ago

Ever since hearing Deeproot kinda 'reinventing' production, I'm intrigued. Maybe even more then with the resulting products themselfes.
(Wich may come from me havig worked in automotive development internationally, so I'm used to 'dumb it down' for easy production/ less modell variants/ cost effectifeness.)

Obviously there are things an established manufacturer wouldn't change (may it only be because he has a blind eye for it, working like he always was for a lifetime) but would stand out as outdated for someone fresh going trough the whole process.

Things that come up in my mind:
Problem - The problem with manufacturing a playfield is that it is mainly one piece that has to go through a line, worked on from both sides, while only it can be worked on from one side at the same time.
Solution(s) - In the MMR we allready saw a pretty much "one board design" for electronics under the playfield. But why not make a "sandwiched playfield"? One sheet of wood to screw in all the bottom mechs, one for the top. Woudn't work with wood? Why use wood? If you could "mold" a playfield (bottomside) why not mold it with all the mounting brackets allready in place?

Problem - Every mech has it's own 'coil', that's a lot of parts, therefore cost, weight and wiring work.
Solution(s) - You could potentially for instance use 1 Coil for all 3 Pops, so that all 3 of them fire at once if one is activated. You could also use one coil/ motor to drive a lot more mechs and all of them individually with some mechanical solution, for instance found in the TOMY 80's Toy Pinball. This Toy has some masterful engineering inside with 1 Motor driving 2 Slings and 3 Pops (and other stuff). The Motor drives a shaft witch rotates constantly. When the Ball hits a Pop, the 'switch' hits the rotating shaft and fires it back up, same with every other mech.

What do you think would be 'great' manufacturing optimizations?
Molded Cabinet out of plastic? Consumer Versions without Coin Door? Hamster in a wheel driving it all?

Tell me your (insane?) ideas!

#1206 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

This Toy has some masterful engineering inside with 1 Motor driving 2 Slings and 3 Pops (and other stuff). The Motor drives a shaft witch rotates constantly. When the Ball hits a Pop, the 'switch' hits the rotating shaft and fires it back up, same with every other mech.

It sounds like more things that can break TBH.

Maybe there are some opportunities for saving money. Optos instead of physical switches perhaps, but that’s not new, and I think there were good reasons these weren’t used instead of micro switches.

The most amazing thing I saw at NWPAS this year was a prototype pinball machine that used modern high resolution graphics to replicate the Pinball2000 machines. Perhaps, if the interactivity were good enough, and the graphics and video game aspect were good enough you could have gameplay so good that you wouldn’t need traditional ramps and such, and you could cut down on the physical costs. However, your production costs will skyrocket, and speaking as someone in the video game industry, that stuff ain’t cheap.

#1207 1 year ago

are coils really more expensive than complex linkages and a gearbox?

To me it just sounds like ways to cut down on space and labor to reduce the transformation costs. So each station is pipelined in a way that keeps it 100% utilized while also having each station progress in a way that’s synchronized with other workstations to produce each machine efficiently. It’s just optimize manufacturer engineering.

Then there are ways to reduce wiring, consolidate LEDs, pcbs to reduce part count. Utilize more serial buses. Power buses.

The other thing hinted at is better use if commodity GPUs integrated with the game display. They are cheap, you can get access to engines the help devs (unity), that have a platform and internet connectivity..

Once they have internet, next logical step is a basic registration and support capability where when you call support, they can log into your machine, and run you through repair steps while having control of the machine.

So many ways to modernize pinball tables while holding on to the basic essence of pinball.

If they implement half the obvious low hanging fruit that comes to mind, they have a chance to smash other competitors in terms of system capability, modularity and support.

Sorry for the bad analogy, but Tesla (many buddies of mine in Silicon Valley Ori there) did a bunch of disruptive stuff that worked against the established because they didn’t have all the old baggage the established companies had. Also I’ve been through a few startups in the valley and have seen quite a bit of parallel thinking.

#1208 1 year ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

are coils really more expensive than complex linkages and a gearbox?

Depends.

You could cut the switches as long if you don't get "points" for hitting something specific.
(Like the slings.)

Of course, that whole thing would not be feasible in a home environment because it makes a constant noise and is to delicate for an Arcade.
It would work in a more toy like environment. (Original Size but way cheaper.)

But like written, one coil driving 3 Pops at once wouldn't be a big deal for most people.

#1209 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Perhaps, if the interactivity were good enough, and the graphics and video game aspect were good enough you could have gameplay so good that you wouldn’t need traditional ramps and such, and you could cut down on the physical costs. However, your production costs will skyrocket, and speaking as someone in the video game industry, that stuff ain’t cheap.

It can be cheap depending on how much units you sell...

...Yes, it's expensive!

#1210 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

That is a problem. Gene got it done. ( BBB ) JJP got it done. And people may have gotten complacent and thinking anyone could do it. Then we've seen some notable failures. So the pendulum has swung way the other way. People aren't so quick to believe.
Since they aren't asking for up front money. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens as things progress. A couple of recent hires have faith in what is going on. Another positive sign. So soon enough we shall see.
TPF isn't that far away. Doesn't cost us anything to watch what happens once the days of Deeproot starts. Wish them well and hope the best for pinball.
LTG : )

Didn’t BBB ruin Gene financially? And JJP had a second set of investors swoop in and rescue them right? In the meantime JJP’s initial 6K price has jumped to 9K as the reality of manufacturing hit them.

My problem with deep root is this “pinball is easy” braggadocio. No need for it. JJP had it too.

In contrast, I saw Gary Stern talk at Pinburgh. Guy is a class act. Acknowledges other vendors but is laser focused on his vision for the business. Are all Stern games home runs? Nope. But they deliver games and come up with designs and do it without “pinball is easy” and “quad manufacturing” BS.

#1211 1 year ago

I’d be happy to skip all the chest beating and ego stuff.

Just ship me my magic girl in Q1.

#1212 1 year ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

I’d be happy to skip all the chest beating and ego stuff.
Just ship me my magic girl in Q1.

I'm sure robin can start your own private thread where you can discuss this ( - :

#1213 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Didn’t BBB ruin Gene financially?

He lost money on every game... but that's not what did him in.

#1214 1 year ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

I'm sure robin can start your own private thread where you can discuss this ( - :

Haha no.... I want the DR version that actually works.

#1215 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Didn’t BBB ruin Gene financially? And JJP had a second set of investors swoop in and rescue them right? In the meantime JJP’s initial 6K price has jumped to 9K as the reality of manufacturing hit them.
My problem with deep root is this “pinball is easy” braggadocio. No need for it. JJP had it too.
In contrast, I saw Gary Stern talk at Pinburgh. Guy is a class act. Acknowledges other vendors but is laser focused on his vision for the business. Are all Stern games home runs? Nope. But they deliver games and come up with designs and do it without “pinball is easy” and “quad manufacturing” BS.

The preorder price for an Emerald City LE WOZ was actually $6,500 back in about 2011, as I recall. Many enthusiasts deemed that price point to be outrageously high, even though the game was packed with endless high-end features. Oh. . .the good old days. . .

#1216 1 year ago
Quoted from ZNET:

The preorder price for an Emerald City LE WOZ was actually $6,500 back in about 2011, as I recall. Many enthusiasts deemed that price point to be outrageously high, even though the game was packed with endless high-end features. Oh. . .the good old days. . .

funny thing is, as stupid as it was to preorder WOZ from a new company on their first pinball, some took it further and paid in full to to get free shipping. In spite of the roller coaster ride, all received their games. So $6.5k delivered for nib WOZ and no sales tax. Boom! a when-pigs-fly success story with a jackpot at the end of the rainbow.

#1217 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

as stupid as it was to preorder WOZ from a new company on their first pinball, some took it further and paid in full to to get free shipping. In spite of the roller coaster ride, all received their games. So $6.5k delivered for nib WOZ and no sales tax. Boom! a when-pigs-fly success story with a jackpot at the end of the rainbow.

It might have been even stupider to put that money in Apple stock at the time, eh?

#1218 1 year ago
Quoted from ZNET:

The preorder price for an Emerald City LE WOZ was actually $6,500 back in about 2011, as I recall. Many enthusiasts deemed that price point to be outrageously high, even though the game was packed with endless high-end features. Oh. . .the good old days. . .

Amen to the good old days! Still, 7 yrs later its hard to believe how far pinball has come back, and high prices along with it.

I bought a LOTRLE Nib for $5200 that year, my first pin, needed something while we waited for Woz.

Never intended it to turn into a dozen pins and growing after all these years. It's been a fun ride!

#1219 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

It might have been even stupider to put that money in Apple stock at the time, eh?

Or worse, Bitcoin.

#1220 1 year ago
Quoted from dnaman:

Or worse, Bitcoin.

All my friends keep trying to get me to buy it. Nope.

11
#1221 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

funny thing is, as stupid as it was to preorder WOZ from a new company on their first pinball, some took it further and paid in full to to get free shipping. In spite of the roller coaster ride, all received their games. So $6.5k delivered for nib WOZ and no sales tax. Boom! a when-pigs-fly success story with a jackpot at the end of the rainbow.

Even preorder WOZECLE customers who, like me, elected to pay in installments, received an economic incentive for picking up the game at the JJP Lakewood, NJ facility. Because Lakewood was deemed an economic revitalization zone, sales tax was only 3.5 % as opposed to 7%.

Yet another benefit to picking up the game was that Jack dedicated considerable one-on-one time to the customer, autographed the cabinet and posed for photos.

Only a one hour drive for me made the trip a no-brainer. However, many preorder customers traveled considerable distances for these additional perks.

In retrospect, a magic-themed game would have been apropos for JJP's first game because with WOZ, Jack certainly pulled a rabbit out of the proverbial hat. The few renegade upstart companies, like Jersey Jack and Spooky, which weathered the storm and produced games deserve the admiration and support of the pinball community, in my opinion.

#1222 1 year ago

He also offered free bill acceptors for operators.
Didn't know about the free shipping if paid in full.

10
#1223 1 year ago

I have to admit, when Deeproot first announced its existence, I shook my head and shelved them as a remote reality. But man, with the two recent interviews (Kaneda’s with the owner and H2H with Dennis), I’m getting REALLY interested in seeing what Deeproot can do.

There’s a growing part of me thinking that Deeproot might just be that disruptive force that buyers have been hoping for. What IF they start bringing games to market that are feature rich and cost at or less than a Stern Pro?

We really need a manufacturer capable of pumping out games in a timely manner, while offering prices that beat Stern. Something that can push innovation and start driving prices down. Because what we have now is the opposite: companies incrementally pushing prices up and no one capable of manufacturing games as quickly as Stern.

Deeproot, make it happen!

#1224 1 year ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

What IF they start bringing games to market that are feature rich and cost at or less than a Stern Pro?

I''m sorta looking forward to seeing that $50,000 pinball machine that was previously mentioned.

#1225 1 year ago

Well. There’s that too

#1226 1 year ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

We really need a manufacturer capable of pumping out games in a timely manner, while offering prices that beat Stern. Something that can push innovation and start driving prices down.

I try to temper my expectations (it would be kinda dumb to be way cheaper than Stern, while having made a huge investment upfront) but no matter what comes out of this, it'll change the bar. That we have handdrawn artwork back is thanks to Zidware, LCD thanks to JJP and so on...

#1227 1 year ago

How awesome would it be to have them release full featured machines that sell in the mid to low 4k range?

I want to see how much of a pain in the a$$ this RM guy really wants to be to the industry. He’s talking a really big game...

#1228 1 year ago

Even at 5 machines released at $4k each you would need a MUCH larger pool of potential pinball buyers with all the games out there already. I hope it happens but pinball already had an arms race in the mid 90s and we all know how that worked out.

#1229 1 year ago

An interesting backhander on Instagram by Jeremy Packer (aka: Zombie Yeti) https://www.instagram.com/p/BmMa584gKHu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

#1230 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That we have handdrawn artwork back is thanks to Zidware, LCD thanks to JJP and so on...

Yeah, we’d still have those crappy red DMDs, incandescent lighting, and less interesting gameplay without all the competition. Innovation is good.

They certainly have a massive hill to climb, but I hope deeproot does well for the sake of pinball. It won’t look good if there’s another failure.

The history of pinball and video games is full of out of the box thinking - some of it flops, and some of it opens up new markets.

#1231 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

The history of pinball and video games is full of out of the box thinking - some of it flops, and some of it opens up new markets.

Take Capcom for example. They just charged into pinball production while it was booming in the mid 90s. And the rest as they say, is history.

#1232 1 year ago

My hope stems from that Kaneda/Roger Sharpe interview (last year?). When Sharpe openly questioned the legitimacy of price hikes as a necessity to survival.

If there is an artificially created hike, perhaps Deeproot (If they can make good/interesting games) can really go for the jugular on that front. I guess we’ll have to wait and see

#1233 1 year ago

Well Stern have been cutting costs enormously hardware wise. Only cost that will have appreciably increased for them is doing stuff for the LCD - though in some cases the effort has been so minimal or relied so heavily on video footage, it's probably not increased man hours.

So it wouldn't take a lot for someone to put out a physically superior product at a significantly lower price, provided they have some scale.

But it would be very hard to do that with good layout, code and assset quality when you're promising 3-4 games at launch and up to 5 or 6in the first year.

That's like peak WMS / Bally output .... but with complex, deeper modern games with LCDs but from a much smaller operation.

It seems really unlikely that the quality will be as good as most people would want with the volume of titles that DR are promising.

If they were saying 2 at launch, maybe another 1 at Expo the same year, then 2 more the next year, I'd be a lot more optimistic. They seem to think they can just have a conveyor belt development of more titles whilst doing everything better and having fewer staff than the competition. Doesn't add up to me.

Maybe we're just seeing the hyperbole and shit talk. Perhaps the reality will be a more sensible cadence of releases.

#1234 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Only cost that will have appreciably increased for them is doing stuff for the LCD - though in some cases the effort has been so minimal or relied so heavily on video footage, it's probably not increased man hours.

Gomez claims in his interview with Nate that there is a whole art team now dedicated to LCD art just like they've had for doing playfield and cabinet art. I'd have to say that for iron maiden, since the graphics is based from the video game that probably wasn't difficult. But yea, something like deadpool had to be created from scratch.

Honestly I'm totally for this new LCD era, but I don't know that we "need" all this fancy animation. I just wanted LCD because the hardware was cheaper, more reliable, less power, probably easy to source parts in the far future. If deeproot decides to do more simplistic graphics closer to a DMD (but color and better resolution, sort of akin to how MMr is), I'd really be ok with that.

-5
#1235 1 year ago

You think GotG or BM'66 took a lot of man hours? There's very little original animation or content. Even Maiden, a ton of it seems to be offline renders from the mobile game.

I can definitely see Deadpool (depending on how much content there is) taking a load more man hours than DMD games though ... but by the same token, absolutely nowhere near JJP games, and particularly Pirates.

Either way, I'd be quite surprised if Stern didn't intend to amortise the per unit cost increase due to display content with the presumably significantly reduced DMD -> LCD cost.

#1236 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

but by the same token, absolutely nowhere near JJP games, and particularly Pirates.

LOL ya don't say!

Probably a good advertisement for not going so overboard on LCD development.

#1237 1 year ago

My eyes are on the game, not the LCD.

#1238 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Either way, I'd be quite surprised if Stern didn't intend to amortise the per unit cost increase due to display content with the presumably significantly reduced DMD -> LCD cost.

Nobody knows what Stern paid for their DMDs. Probably a lot less than we got the AMH ones for. And remember Stern uses the better version of the LCD. So the hardware savings might not as as much as you think.

If you look at Alice Cooper the LCD is like a third what the AMH DMD cost....But! You need a single board computer to drive it, PROC, and an HDMI to LVDS converter board. And on top of that you have to create tons of content from scratch.

So for smaller companies with fewer games to amortize costs across the LCD is most certainly a landmine they've all happily chosen to step on.

#1239 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You think GotG or BM'66 took a lot of man hours? There's very little original animation or content. Even Maiden, a ton of it seems to be offline renders from the mobile game.

While I’m sure the game gave them plenty of a head start in character design and modeling.... I can’t think of a single scene in the actual pin that is a direct lift from the mobile game.

The big difference people keep missing is the challenge of blending live action content. Animated stuff is easier to layer, chop up, and mix with your cartoon style text, labels, backgrounds, etc. blending the live action stuff without making it feel like a cut screen all the time is wayyyy more work. And why JJP’s efforts have been so impressive on that technical and art level

#1240 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Nobody knows what Stern paid for their DMDs. Probably a lot less than we got the AMH ones for. And remember Stern uses the better version of the LCD. So the hardware savings might not as as much as you think.
If you look at Alice Cooper the LCD is like a third what the AMH DMD cost....But! You need a single board computer to drive it, PROC, and an HDMI to LVDS converter board. And on top of that you have to create tons of content from scratch.
So for smaller companies with fewer games to amortize costs across the LCD is most certainly a landmine they've all happily chosen to step on.

I don't disagree in the case of a smaller company. However Stern are buying something that's produced in millions of units, in bulk, with the LCDs. DMDs of any description certainly aren't. Moreover they're using a one-board solution that's likely very cheap (though development of software may not have been).

#1241 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Take Capcom for example. They just charged into pinball production while it was booming in the mid 90s.

More like Capcom charged in when pinball production was on the roller coaster to hell. By the mid 90s pinball was in serious decline. Sales dropping, production dropping, factories closing or would soon.

LTG : )

#1242 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

More like Capcom charged in when pinball production was on the roller coaster to hell. By the mid 90s pinball was in serious decline. Sales dropping, production dropping, factories closing or would soon.

LTG : )

Let me rephrase that then- "Capcom charged into pinball production a few years after the peak of the 90s pinball boom that only lasted a couple of years"

#1243 1 year ago

They charged in to the market with Python wasting money and doing unmarketable vanity projects, with no oversight, just as the most historic name in pinball (Gottlieb) were shuttering their business, SEGA entered an awful stretch of games doing a fraction of DE's number's, and WMS produced some great games but lost all interest in selling them.

#1244 1 year ago

I guess the point is if you are starting another company during a pinball boom it is probably best to get the games out there before that boom starts petering out or you end up in a situation like Capcom. Lots of great ideas and promise, but just a little late to the game.

#1245 1 year ago

Zombie Yeti being snarky:

pasted_image (resized).png
#1246 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You think GotG or BM'66 took a lot of man hours?

Speaking from my experience with Alien, yes. Just because you have content to bootstrap you doesn't mean it doesn't still take a lot of work.

#1247 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Speaking from my experience with Alien, yes. Just because you have content to bootstrap you doesn't mean it doesn't still take a lot of work.

I bought my TSPP from an exec for Aristocrat in Austin. He had the contract for BM66 and Aerosmith (can't speak for other games). It was a lot of work, and I'm sure it was costly to have it contracted out.

#1248 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

I bought my TSPP from an exec for Aristocrat in Austin. He had the contract for BM66 and Aerosmith (can't speak for other games). It was a lot of work, and I'm sure it was costly to have it contracted out.

And that’s exactly why pinball should be moving away from complex display graphics. Reduce the cost, make it more acce$$ible for operators and home collectors... and put some additional resources into what’s happening on the playfield.

The industry is stuck on this idea that it must put resources into the backbox... why not innovate and forge ahead using different, less expensive, avenues to driving player interest??

And it’s not as if a DMD/LCD makes a game more accessible to the 99% of all humans that finds pinball endless confusing. The pinball industry should start looking at new ways to make games easy to understand.

#1249 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Zombie Yeti being snarky:[quoted image]

Awesome trolling.

#1250 1 year ago

I always wonder what is on the LCD, I never get to look up there while I'm playing.

I can hardly look at the new little screens on the playfield.

Guess I have to watch other people play more...

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