(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#12051 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Come on bruh, operators look at how complicated this thing is and will just nope out of it and stick with Stern Pros (to say nothing of their chosen themes). Or they have a client base that is hardcore enough to dismiss any video game version and only be interested in the physical version.
I would argue that video game releases get more people into pinball than drives away location players. Pinball Arcade and Pinball FX video games have gotten more people under 30 to check out pinball more than any other innovation.
Besides, the video game release is cash flow for a company that can't actually build anything (and probably wont for a while, if ever)

I’m pretty excited for the digital version of “Space Cadet.”

Subways galore !!

#12052 3 years ago
Quoted from nwpinball:

That's what I found so weird with Heighway and Alien, they spent a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things.

Heighway I could understand since they wanted to make a universal cabinet for swapping games. That actually had a purpose.

All this extra noodling with the cabinet that zidware (JPop) did and now deeproot is doing seems kind of unnecessary. I think deeproot should seriously be focusing on playfield and code and getting a game out the door. You don't play the cabinet, after all.

#12053 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I think the generation of any money stream at this point would help, not sure digital versions of games you can't manufacture (yet, if ever) is the solution... I get that it makes creating a digital version way easier having all the assets already in your pocket, but not sure undercutting an operator base is a smart move for a company the NEEDS the operator market to even have a chance of suceeding on any scale against Stern. Especially if you are just starting out. But this has been an intersting convo amoung the rest of this sh|t show so far for sure. It makes me wonder just how far in a hole DR would be right now if there had not been a pandemic on during their launch year.

Personally I think them going after the operator's market is a folly. There's just no way they make it affordable and provide the timely support operators require. And again, their themes are mostly bad for attracting location players. Focus on home buyers and high end collectors. Most of their options like different cabinet options and innovations like the glorified shipping crate are simply upsells for wealthy collectors. I don't think they need to make them in limited production runs, but they gotta get realistic with their manufacturing expectations and the BOM on all this stuff.

It's just wild to me. They have all these Unity developers, all this animation work finished, and all these 3D models already created. Get some cash flow going! Get that money Robert!

#12054 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

If it's true y'all fixed the ramp, let's see gameplay vids instead of crate demos.

You can see for yourself in Cary Hardy's latest video. There is a short amount of gameplay video around the 20:06 mark. They shoot the ramp successfully multiple times in rapid succession.

#12055 3 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

You can see for yourself in Cary Hardy's latest video. There is a short amount of gameplay video around the 20:06 mark. They shoot the ramp successfully multiple times in rapid succession.

Ah cool. I usually skip the bloggers but will check out this vid. Thanks for the heads-up re: skipping first 20 min..

#12056 3 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

They shoot the ramp successfully multiple times in rapid succession.

Thanks. That ramp is clearly doable now. We can say that.

#12057 3 years ago

15 days till virtual expo (and next deeproot update)!

#12058 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Does DR realize how unsatisfying it's going to be to pound on a touchscreen instead of an obvious, lit-up physical button?

I was just thinking about this as I ran some errands. One of my "lockdown boredom projects" was putting an Android Auto double din touchscreen stereo in my 2006 station wagon. Before I could run my finger across six buttons, feeling them, and change stations. Now I actually have to look at it.

12
#12059 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Thanks. That ramp is clearly doable now. We can say that.

Yes the ramp is clearly doable if you have the front leg levelers jacked up 2 inches.

Remains to be seen if that’s true when the game is set up like an actual pinball machine.

Either that or the brand new deep root studio amphitheater sports some seriously innovative floors and the ludicrous setup was just to help compensate for the revolutionary “Floor Armour” (tm) that is hammer proof but extremely lumpy.
6E65B2B1-E86D-4BC0-983D-15060A80F7FB (resized).jpeg6E65B2B1-E86D-4BC0-983D-15060A80F7FB (resized).jpeg

#12060 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes the ramp is clearly doable if you have the front leg levelers jacked up 2 inches.
Remains to be seen if that’s true when the game is set up like an actual pinball machine.

oh man, I forgot about that. Jeez, and I thought I had something positive to say for a second.

#12061 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

oh man, I forgot about that. Jeez, and I thought I had something positive to say for a second.

It’s all so typically half-ass. I mean, why not just jack the front of the game up with a stack of beer coasters?

With all their vast wealth and resources, why not just make a set of legs that are 3 inches shorter for the front so the subterfuge is less noticeable?

I know Cary hardy doesn't claim to be Bob Woodward but even podcasters notice things like jacked up front legs, right?

#12062 3 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Heighway I could understand since they wanted to make a universal cabinet for swapping games. That actually had a purpose.
All this extra noodling with the cabinet that zidware (JPop) did and now deeproot is doing seems kind of unnecessary. I think deeproot should seriously be focusing on playfield and code and getting a game out the door. You don't play the cabinet, after all.

Its unbelievable how closely this deeproot fiasco mimics jpops theft a few years ago. Jpop must have way more say then we think he does...

#12063 3 years ago

I think you guys are making way too big of a deal out of the ramp and leg levelers.

For all you know the photo was taken before they showed off their leg leveling features that they were touting. I think Cary mentioned in his video that deeproot filmed him and someone else setting up a game, to show off the various new things they've created to make it easier to setup games. Or maybe they put the leg hole brackets in a slightly different position. Or they have their own legs of different lengths.

The ramp is clearly different if you compare it to the Houston example. The return is different (to the inlane and not in front of the sling) and the diverter area looks different. It has definitely been addressed in some way.

#12064 3 years ago

Another reason why they should have picked either zero or one new fangled innovations to add their first game (instead of changing almost every part in one shot)...

If any of these new custom parts break down, we can only get these parts through DR...

And the chance that they will break is high since they are all new designs...

Which means that any buyer has to have a much higher level of confidence that DR will be around for a long time...

And with DR strongly signalling they have no idea what they are doing (I mean they hired 5-person pro film crew to shoot the reveal like it was the first iphone release only to have some outside amateurs tell them it’s not ready)...

And so no operator in his right mind would buy (at least not the first version)...

So, oh yeah, so this is one more reason why it might have been better to incrementally add innovation and not all at once. Again goal is to build a successful company and not just the first game. Anyway I still do wish them luck but I’m more than a bit worried at this point and that’s if they take until 2023 which it looks like they will need.

#12065 3 years ago

Would we be talking this much about DR if they had put RAZA in a butter cabinet with decent artwork, a nice topper, a few "innovations" like the Bally juke box glass system and maybe the auto leveling, left Pinbar in the lab, and showed 50 workers on a line putting parts on a playfield, wiring node boards or whatever they are going to use, and had a shipping dock full of cardboard boxes with DR plastered all over them and shipping labels addressed to "early adopters", or better still, any names off the Zidware F'ed Over list? I tthink if it was me I would have names like P. Lawlor and G. Stern on the shipping labels and see who notices...

#12066 3 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Again goal is to build a successful company and not just the first game.

In order to have a successful company you have to actually make/sell the first game. I would say that's the exact goal.

#12067 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Would we be talking this much about DR if they had put RAZA in a butter cabinet with decent artwork, a nice topper, a few "innovations" like the Bally juke box glass system and maybe the auto leveling, left Pinbar in the lab, and showed 50 workers on a line putting parts on a playfield, wiring node boards or whatever they are going to use, and had a shipping dock full of cardboard boxes with DR plastered all over them and shipping labels addressed to "early adopters", or better still, any names off the Zidware F'ed Over list? I tthink if it was me I would have names like P. Lawlor and G. Stern on the shipping labels and see who notices...

Im not following..

#12068 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Im not following..

Controversy brings eyeballs and ears to a party... Having a vanilla flavored "Normal" pinball reveal would not have generated this many posts... we would treat it like API's Hot Wheels... just saying as a counter point to all the "controversy" and drama this whole trip through Adventureland has been...

#12069 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Controversy brings eyeballs and ears to a party... Having a vanilla flavored "Normal" pinball reveal would not have generated this many posts... we would treat it like API's Hot Wheels... just saying as a counter point to all the "controversy" and drama this whole trip through Adventureland has been...

Yea, I got that part, but there towards the end...Good points though, and to answer the question. No...

#12070 3 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Another reason why they should have picked either zero or one new fangled innovations to add their first game (instead of changing almost every part in one shot)...
If any of these new custom parts break down, we can only get these parts through DR...
And the chance that they will break is high since they are all new designs...
Which means that any buyer has to have a much higher level of confidence that DR will be around for a long time...
And with DR strongly signalling they have no idea what they are doing (I mean they hired 5-person pro film crew to shoot the reveal like it was the first iphone release only to have some outside amateurs tell them it’s not ready)...
And so no operator in his right mind would buy (at least not the first version)...
So, oh yeah, so this is one more reason why it might have been better to incrementally add innovation and not all at once. Again goal is to build a successful company and not just the first game. Anyway I still do wish them luck but I’m more than a bit worried at this point and that’s if they take until 2023 which it looks like they will need.

You just outlined a huge reason why Heighway went bye-bye. Also, hovercrafts.

#12071 3 years ago

It’s painfully obvious that Robert has drank the jpop kool aid and has a serious bromance going on.

The bad is that some really good and talented people will be hurt by this when the wheels finally come off.
Hopefully, this will be the final nail in the coffin for jpop and everyone on the planet will know what a cancerous turd he is.

18
#12072 3 years ago

How do you compete with

From Stern

Iron Maiden
Jurassic Park
Elvira
Stranger Things
Avengers

JJP

Gun & Roses this week
Toy Story

Spooky

Rick & Morty

American Pinball

Hot Wheels

CGC

Attack From Mars
Medieval Madness
Monster Bash
Cactus Canyon

Bottom line, you can’t, unless you make a FUN game

All the “innovation” in the world isn’t gonna save a Food Truck game

Or RAZA

The ONLY reason we bought RAZA initially was because it was LIMITED while people thought JPOP had a clue

Now, nobody cares, because there are so many other great games to play and buy

Bottom line, end of story

Terrible execution on their part

#12073 3 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

It’s painfully obvious that Robert has drank the jpop kool aid and has a serious bromance going on.
The bad is that some really good and talented people will be hurt by this when the wheels finally come off.
Hopefully, this will be the final nail in the coffin for jpop and everyone on the planet will know what a cancerous turd he is.

It's Robert's company, it looks like he is calling the shots. It still boggles my mind that they have had dozens of pinball creators working on this, developing, testing etc, ...and yet it still takes a few bloggers to tell the "Director" that they have to postpone the launch seconds before the train runs over the damsel? No one told Mueller this or did he just not listen?

Either way, it's appears to be sign of poor leadership, or inexperience at the least. True that we don't know what is really happening below the waterline, but three failed launches and now this does not do well for the DR brand.

#12074 3 years ago

Some other pins are coming out. DR really missed the boat

#12075 3 years ago

PinFailure (tm)

#12077 3 years ago

Listening to some podcasts about DR. Why is this so difficult for some of them to figure this out? DR doesn’t have to do any real improvements to RAZA, because they really don’t plan on launching it. They never have, which is why 5+ years later they’re still not ready and RAZA doesn’t look much different than JPOP original, except for a little lipstick put on the pig here and there. DR is in the business of acquiring investment money only. Pinball is one of the pitches they use to get that investment money. Manufacturing has secretly never been in their plans and the reason it still doesn’t exist today. That’s too much real work for a traveling snake oil sales wagon like DR.

Cary Hardy said while he was there, with the [shill] pro camera crew filming, he didn’t want to be that one guy criticizing DR with the cameras rolling. Very clever of RM to shut everyone’s mouth and make it appear something big was in the works. Even though nothing of real substance was happening. 3 false starts to DR and they’re finally running out of excuses.

People say no big deal because they’ve not taken preorder money. But it is a big deal on a grander scale in the world of pinball. DR is creating an even bigger stench for pinball, than JPOP, Andrew Heighway or Dutch Pinball ever thought of doing. No investor in the future will give anyone wishing to create a new pinball company the time of day. Like hard working Gerry at Multimorphic said, just think what he could have done with over $30 million dollars. He created real pinball innovation in a short amount of time, with less than a million and is delivering pinball as promised.

#12078 3 years ago

and the wait continues ......

at the end of the day if you don't have a fun game to play under the glass ... none of the other stuff maters at all!

#12079 3 years ago

As long as we're zooming in on pictures and asking questions, maybe one of the Gang of Six could answer this, if it's not part of the NDA:

This sure looks like the HammerTest(tm) includes a square of plexiglass between the hammer and the playfield. Isn't that what's he's holding with his left hand?

pasted_image_1 (resized).pngpasted_image_1 (resized).png

Let's zoom in on the table after that test - isn't that a square of plexiglass sitting next to the hammer?

pasted_image2 (resized).pngpasted_image2 (resized).png

What about that little rig to drop a ball or weight on the playfield? Did that have its own little piece of plexiglass too? Let's zoom in and see:

pasted_image3 (resized).pngpasted_image3 (resized).png

Next time they do this, I want to be the one to choose the hammer.

pasted_image4 (resized).pngpasted_image4 (resized).png

#12080 3 years ago
Quoted from Thunderbird:

Cary Hardy said while he was there, with the [shill] pro camera crew filming, he didn’t want to be that one guy criticizing DR with the cameras rolling.

Interesting. I can understand the perceived pressure under those circumstances. You've also been brought there by your "host" who paid for the trip.

I guess in the future, any "VIPs" should better understand their role. They aren't independent media but paid influencers.

#12081 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I was just thinking about this as I ran some errands. One of my "lockdown boredom projects" was putting an Android Auto double din touchscreen stereo in my 2006 station wagon. Before I could run my finger across six buttons, feeling them, and change stations. Now I actually have to look at it.

I agree Ben!
after installing a double din touchscreen radio in my 99 Toyota truck a few years ago I realized just how much I hate touchscreens. I used to be able to blindly adjust volume or change channels. Not any more. There isn’t even a G Damn knob for The volume!!!

#12082 3 years ago

are they the real DR owners ?
Is it laundering money for a cartel ?

just wondering...

then all makes sense...

Ozark (resized).pngOzark (resized).png
#12083 3 years ago
Quoted from Thunderbird:

If RM really wanted to make pinball, which he’s proven he doesn’t, he’d contact Gerry and offer to buy him out. Judging by Gerry’s passion, he’d refuse the offer to keep control of what he’s started, to keep on improving.

On a K-man podcast, RM stated he's willing to contemplate deals with other manufacturers except for Gerry. He said that bridge was crossed a long time ago. There was no explanation of what happened.

#12084 3 years ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

I agree Ben!
after installing a double din touchscreen radio in my 99 Toyota truck a few years ago I realized just how much I hate touchscreens. I used to be able to blindly adjust volume or change channels. Not any more. There isn’t even a G Damn knob for The volume!!!

I just modified my factory stereo in my 86 monte ss to be bluetooth compatible for this very reason. I want the knobs and buttons.

31
#12085 3 years ago

Pinside NEVER disappoints...

RAZA - Still a prototype so nothing that has been seen to date is final, but I really like what I see so far. We know changes ARE coming according to deeproot themselves and the six guests. Why waste so much energy bashing things that ultimately will be different? Constructive criticism is always beneficial. The over-the-top bashing...don’t some of you have anything better to do???

Painbar - Easily fixed. However, if it’s not, toughen up. My Sea Ray has more squared off corners than a traditional lockbar and it’s completely fine. I know I know...Stellar Wars!!! More on Sea Ray to follow...

Pinbar - Absolutely brilliant and long overdue. I expect some form of this to eventually become the industry standard. The benefits are countless and utilize a complete waste of space where the traditional apron is.

Hinged playfield glass - Long overdue. My Sea Ray has a similar design and I love it. I wish all my other pins had it...miss you 4MBC.

Wraparound translite - Awesome.

Ultra-wide display - Also awesome.

Art package - More awesomeness.

Playfield and toys - Also awesome.

Ramp shot - Looks so satisfying!

Position of leg levelers - Who the hell cares as long as the pitch is the approximate 6.5 degrees that we are all used to.

Hammer test close-ups - Pinside detective work at its finest!

Pinpod - A fellow pinhead of mine had to send back two NIB Deadpools because of shipping damage...third time was a charm. All damage was due to the cardboard box being punctured resulting in cabinet damage. A wood crate solution is long overdue...putting a $6k+ pin in a cardboard box and hoping for the best is foolish by any manufacturer. Especially, now knowing they just repair them and ship them back out as NIB.

Touchscreens in general - Those of you that think they suck, trade in your iPhone or Android and get that hard-button flip phone back, you know you miss it! Trying to text with one of those flip phones is as archaic as navigating menus with those awesome buttons on the inside of the coin door. The ridiculousness of those buttons will be realized once the Pinbar becomes standard.

Germs on a touchscreen - Cause as you know, germs don’t live on flipper buttons, lockdown bars, playfield glass, start buttons, action buttons, quarters, dollar bills, or the door handle to get into an arcade, germs ONLY live on touchscreens...period.

Part failures - The Pinbar failing is no more of an issue than the main LCD, node board, power supply, etc. failing. ANY major component fails on any of these newer pins and it’s game over until the new part arrives. Maybe we should just go back to EMs as they are much more reliable in my honest opinion. I love EMs and EM arcade games, they are just so damn reliable once set-up properly and played regularly. Just making a point, however, I really do love EMs and probably shouldn’t have sold all the ones I had. I still have all my EM arcades and they are never leaving!

Pingina - Get a real woman and you don’t have to worry about how you are gonna screw your pinball machine.

Bottom line - I am in on a RAZA and “if” it is ever available for purchase, I will be selling a few pins to make it happen. I hope they do find a way to make their pins in-house, but if they ultimately become a design, engineering, art, etc. studio and subcontract the manufacturing, that’s fine too assuming there is good QC.

And I do realize RAZA may never go into production as I myself have legitimate concerns. Good luck to deeproot again in hoping they can bring this pin to market!!!

Patiently waiting as Cary Hardy suggested...

13
#12086 3 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Pinside NEVER disappoints...
RAZA - Still a prototype so nothing that has been seen to date is final, but I really like what I see so far. We know changes ARE coming according to deeproot themselves and the six guests. Why waste so much energy bashing things that ultimately will be different? Constructive criticism is always beneficial. The over-the-top bashing...don’t some of you have anything better to do???
Painbar - Easily fixed. However, if it’s not, toughen up. My Sea Ray has more squared off corners than a traditional lockbar and it’s completely fine. I know I know...Stellar Wars!!! More on Sea Ray to follow...
Pinbar - Absolutely brilliant and long overdue. I expect some form of this to eventually become the industry standard. The benefits are countless and utilize a complete waste of space where the traditional apron is.
Hinged playfield glass - Long overdue. My Sea Ray has a similar design and I love it. I wish all my other pins had it...miss you 4MBC.
Wraparound translite - Awesome.
Ultra-wide display - Also awesome.
Art package - More awesomeness.
Playfield and toys - Also awesome.
Ramp shot - Looks so satisfying!
Position of leg levelers - Who the hell cares as long as the pitch is the approximate 6.5 degrees that we are all used to.
Hammer test close-ups - Pinside detective work at its finest!
Pinpod - A fellow pinhead of mine had to send back two NIB Deadpools because of shipping damage...third time was a charm. All damage was due to the cardboard box being punctured resulting in cabinet damage. A wood crate solution is long overdue...putting a $6k+ pin in a cardboard box and hoping for the best is foolish by any manufacturer. Especially, now knowing they just repair them and ship them back out as NIB.
Touchscreens in general - Those of you that think they suck, trade in your iPhone or Android and get that hard-button flip phone back, you know you miss it! Trying to text with one of those flip phones is as archaic as navigating menus with those awesome buttons on the inside of the coin door. The ridiculousness of those buttons will be realized once the Pinbar becomes standard.
Germs on a touchscreen - Cause as you know, germs don’t live on flipper buttons, lockdown bars, playfield glass, start buttons, action buttons, quarters, dollar bills, or the door handle to get into an arcade, germs ONLY live on touchscreens...period.
Part failures - The Pinbar failing is no more of an issue than the main LCD, node board, power supply, etc. failing. ANY major component fails on any of these newer pins and it’s game over until the new part arrives. Maybe we should just go back to EMs as they are much more reliable in my honest opinion. I love EMs and EM arcade games, they are just so damn reliable once set-up properly and played regularly. Just making a point, however, I really do love EMs and probably shouldn’t have sold all the ones I had. I still have all my EM arcades and they are never leaving!
Pingina - Get a real woman and you don’t have to worry about how you are gonna screw your pinball machine.
Bottom line - I am in on a RAZA and “if” it is ever available for purchase, I will be selling a few pins to make it happen. I hope they do find a way to make their pins in-house, but if they ultimately become a design, engineering, art, etc. studio and subcontract the manufacturing, that’s fine too assuming there is good QC.
And I do realize RAZA may never go into production as I myself have legitimate concerns. Good luck to deeproot again in hoping they can bring this pin to market!!!
Patiently waiting as Cary Hardy suggested...

This is the Hate/Assumption only thread. Keep your positive attitude to yourself! lol

#12087 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I guess in the future, any "VIPs" should better understand their role. They aren't independent media but paid influencers.

Or simply be experienced enough to know to establish the terms before you agree to go.

#12088 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I was just thinking about this as I ran some errands. One of my "lockdown boredom projects" was putting an Android Auto double din touchscreen stereo in my 2006 station wagon. Before I could run my finger across six buttons, feeling them, and change stations. Now I actually have to look at it.

This makes complete sense.

Pinball is high paced action where you lose if you take your eyes off the playfield for too long or your hands off the flipper buttons.

Smashing the middle lockbar button works because it's in your peripheral view and it's a raised physical button. Likewise with the start button, I don't have to hunt or read through a list of touch screen button images to immediately start a new game.

The only benefit of multiple custom virtual buttons in a touchscreen seem to be for minigames which most people don't seem to care for and for a owner/operator menu, which would probably be better implemented as a phone app connectable though Bluetooth or web.

The touchbar is a solution in search of a problem.

#12089 3 years ago
Quoted from BobSacamano:

The touchbar is a solution in search of a problem.

Your thinking/ scope is too narrow.

Yes your argument is correct, whereas I like the idea to be able to put an additional Magna Save etc. Button that you can activate with your thumb.

But you're thinking pinball as it is NOW.

If Deeproot really releases a pinball with "Choose your own adventure" style RPG elements spanning multiple games (wich would be a good idea to mature games out from the arcade to home use) you can manage your inventory, visit shops or other things to interact with your game.

You're allowed to hate that idea of course.

In addition, altough the touchbar may be overkill, that Stern still uses the Dot Matrix GUI from Baywatch for the systems menu is lackluster beyond belief.

#12091 3 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

that Stern still uses the Dot Matrix GUI from Baywatch for the systems menu is lackluster beyond belief.

What specifically is wrong with it though? It's simple, effective, easy to understand, quick & easy to navigate. Why spend development time & resources polishing the plumbing when you can furnish the house with that money?

I can at least understand the pro-pinbar arguments, although I don't agree with them, because it's player-facing.

#12092 3 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Trying to text with one of those flip phones is as archaic as navigating menus with those awesome buttons on the inside of the coin door. The ridiculousness of those buttons will be realized once the Pinbar becomes standard.

I agree with most of what you're saying except the service buttons. How often do we need to go into the service zone? I've never thought, "Man, these buttons inside the coin door are sure a pain in the ass. They remind me of a flip phone." Actually, it is the opposite. They are pretty convenient.

Raza looks awesome to me except I can't get my head around the pinbar. Obviously we need to see it, but I just can't see this being very useful and I can't see it handling a spilled beer. Even if it does, will it still be functional when dirty? Can it handle abuse? What if some asshole decides to punch it while on route?

#12093 3 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

What specifically is wrong with it though? It's simple, effective, easy to understand, quick & easy to navigate. Why spend development time & resources polishing the plumbing when you can furnish the house with that money?
I can at least understand the pro-pinbar arguments, although I don't agree with them, because it's player-facing.

It's not that the Stern system doesn't adequately function, it's just that it could be better. You're a pinhead. You're familiar with how it's laid out, what different things mean, and how to get to where you want to change certain things. It is a menu system designed by engineers for technical minded people.

Stern wastes a lot of screen realestate when it could have additional help text and relevant visual aids where appropriate. Some sort of first time setup walk through. The game manual in a NIB Stern barely explains anything at all to a new pinball owner.

Yeah, Stern can coast and not spend the money (which would mostly be a one time cost split over all future games). But that doesn't mean it can't be made better.

Jersey Jack gets it. They have a ton of new home collectors. Their service menu is great and they offer amazing manuals full of basic and advance information.

I don't blame deeproot for wanting to make a good GUI, especially when they're already committed to to the touchscreen.

#12094 3 years ago
Quoted from BobSacamano:

The touchbar is a solution in search of a problem.

I think it's more about forcing additional use cases that aren't as attractive as some others and trying to solve them all with one solution. The whole isn't really as good as the sum of the parts...

The idea of another display surface - not horrible.. we've seen plenty of efforts around this (in the PF, in the Apron, above the PF, etc)
The idea of a modern UI and control surface for Operators - certainly something that would be welcome (look at the incremental gains JJP and AP added using better displays)
The idea of more interactive surfaces that grab attention or be familiar to the younger generations - Not a bad idea
The idea of digital assets added to games - Not a bad idea.. we've all been begging for the LCD for ages...

These are all interesting use cases and needs on their own.

But I think the bastard child they came up with to try to appease the idea of it being a 'game play' device dictated it's location. The Playfield is too limiting to designs... too hard to apply game to game... out of the reach of any interactivity. So now you pull it up to the apron area... it hits most of the checkboxes.. but it's not in a great place for active players. So you start compromising..

Now you have this surface... you start throwing out more ideas what you can do with it. And more and more of these game play ideas sound worse and worse to fully engaged players trying to keep the ball alive. But it still serves those other purposes you started out with, that were decent ideas.

Compromise leads to mediocrity and ultimately trying too hard to make some ideas stick. It's a bit like design by committee... too many ideas trying to be forced into the same thing instead of an elegant design that excels at what it was really trying to do.

I think they should have studied more the idea of where players need their hands and eyes during play. The operator benefits have a lot of potential.. but they probably didn't need to be there on the apron of every cabinet to get those gains.

#12095 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I don't blame deeproot for wanting to make a good GUI, especially when they're already committed to to the touchscreen.

Internet connectivity allowing remote firmware updates removes that issue UNLESS of course their end isn't set up to do it which would be DUMB.

#12096 3 years ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Internet connectivity allowing remote firmware updates removes that issue UNLESS of course their end isn't set up to do it which would be DUMB.

Sure. They could also scrap the whole thing and just let people pair a tablet or their phone to change all these menu systems or open up additional ways to play a game.

They could have done a lot of things simpler. But a company with JPop in charge is built around the sunk cost fallacy.

#12097 3 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

What specifically is wrong with it though? It's simple, effective, easy to understand, quick & easy to navigate. Why spend development time & resources polishing the plumbing when you can furnish the house with that money?

It's practical - but it's neither simple nor efficient for the operator. Scrolling one by one through 150 options is not ideal... Hunting manuals to figure out where switch #51 is not ideal or efficient. needing additional aides is not efficient when you have an entire computer and display right there.. and in the future the internet.

It sure is better than dipswitches and alpha displays... but it certainly is no 'good enough' stopping point if making your games easy and operate and fix. The system could virtually eliminate manuals for diagrams, part numbers, wiring charts... make finding settings more efficient... could easily display all settings that are NOT default, etc etc etc.

Stern is not at the top of the hill... they simply know its not keeping people from buying their games.

#12098 3 years ago

how would you use the pinbar to navigate the menus if you have the playfield glass raised and the playfield in service position?

#12099 3 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

how would you use the pinbar to navigate the menus if you have the playfield glass raised and the playfield in service position?

I believe the pinbar isn't attached to the lifting portion

17
#12100 3 years ago

On paper the Pinbar(tm r c) makes sense for troubleshooting - you've got the PF up, the main screen is blocked, but the PinBar(tm (C++)) can display the tests etc.

The dumb thing about this if it were ANY OTHER PRODUCT IN THE WORLD it would just connect to your smart phone. Printing under the PF? Cool, put some QR codes there. Hold your phone in an area, it sees the code, BOOM you're in the test menu for that section so the screen isn't a mess of irrelevant data. Built in flashlight too!

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