deeproot Pinball thread

If it took outside influence to point out problems with RAZA then it means no one internally was allowed to critique "Golden Boy" JPOP.

Take a moment to realize how badly he's failed. He's had ten years and millions of dollars and yet he hasn't finished a single game. Why is he given ANY control?

How many zero-budget games have gone from a garage to production during that time? AMH, TNA, R&M, Iron Maiden. And now Elwin is pumping out the hits at a yearly rate.

And here's the thing. Making the game IS THE EASY PART. Coding and manufacturing is where the hell begins. If they haven't even gotten past the easy part, boy are they in trouble.

You might be right, but if u are they are DOA .... without a great branded theme they have almost zero chance of selling many games at $9K.

Smartest statement of the entire thread...

Don't get me wrong, I want to see them flourish, but this is the reality we are in.

The hinged glass is a really interesting concept... not in the sense that it's new (it's not) but in the tradeoffs it has.

PROS: Sliding the glass out is a PITA: You have to ensure you have aisle space to do so and move the machine around if you don't. And then worry about breaking it (ever have pf glass effin' explode in your hands during the gentlest cautious placement onto the floor? I have, and witnesses were as dumbstruck shocked as I). For simple stuck balls and quick fixes with a crowd of players, removing the glass can be very annoying if not possibly hazardous.

CONS: Glass isn't always "light" and the frame adds weight. Replacing the glass in the (hopefully rare!) event of breakage is more complicated. Ceiling clearance could be an issue. And you obviously can't tilt the playfield all the way up to service rearmost underfield mechs without removing the glass frame anyway, which goes back to it being heavy, and you'd have to get all around the machine to detach the hinges, as opposed to just sliding out from the front... so it's a different - and arguably worse - kind of access problem. But the frame might make the glass less prone to sudden shatter, which I guess is a plus.

Personally I really like the idea of a hinged glass frame. I can see why this was tried and abandoned in the 60's, but properly implemented (easily detached from machine) it could make a welcome comeback even though people didn't like Heighway's implementation.

A true innovation might have glass that slides out for folks that prefer it that way, but can stay locked into hinged siderails if you'd rather lift it up. Best of both worlds and fits every scenario!

This has got to be the dumbest of the revolutionary innovations that will change pinball forever that was "unveiled" last week.

A large, expensive, apparently rebranded crate. Gee, great fucking idea.

Is there ANYBODY in the entire pinball hobby who thinks they need this thing? Where are you going to keep this monstrosity? Why is this better than a cardboard box? Why is this better than a moving blanket and a ratchet tie?

Is there anybody here who has been dying to add significant weight, bulk, storage space, and cost to the act of "moving a pinball machine?"

It's mind-numbingly dumb. I wonder how many hours were spent on this revolutionary innovation?

The PinPod (tm) just sums up the stupidity, uselessness, and pointlessness of the entire Deep Root scam. If you gave me a "pinpod" for free, I would literally throw it on the street, and so would most of you.

It should be Assumed. Minor clarification

On the old Bally games I was referencing, it is noted, not assumed.

I have no idea on the revolutionary and innovative Deep Root glass. Does it even matter? We all know this game is never getting produced.

If JPOP’s calling was to be a T-shirt manufacturer I think he would of found a way to screw that up too!

I often wonder how many Frappuccino’s and Macchiatos John bought at starbucks with the money I sent him.

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I contacted Pinball Armor a couple of years back about their pinball covers. They don't make their pinball covers any longer because no one bought them. That was even with Stern marketing a Stern branded version.

They put me on a list, and if the list grew enough they'd see if they could do a run. I never heard from them again.

edit: Here's a link to their sales PDF. You can bet their armor cost less and can be stored more easily, and still no one bought it.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts-blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PinballArmorFlyer_102413.pdf

One thing that comes to mind is how easy it would be to install some Pin Stadiums on the 'lid'. I even think I spotted something similar on DP's photo's. But my comment is really geared towards Stern, Bally, Williams, etc.

I believe the plan was to do an online launch that weekend at which point the guests would have been able to be the first to talk about it in videos, podcasts and blog posts. It would have been real scoops for them... but that didnt happen. So we have an awkward situation where an NDA that probably would only have (majoritively) been in effect until the weekend ends up being for an indeterminable length of time. It's not the ideal situation for anyone. As Cary said in his latest video... "it sucks".

It's not about 'scoops' - its about having the insights and access to be able to make your content and statements. They would be informed enough to be able to make content and be ontime... vs having to wait until some materials got to the field. Timing would also be dictated by the vendor through embargos, etc.

They just thought they would be able to do their thing... instead they learned they would chained animals serving only as amplifiers

Ben, we need an animated gif of you exhaling a long breath in exasperation that we can use around here.

haha that kaneda interview was full of them

Winner.

Don't forget the long pause.

At least in the Bally implementation, the glass "hinged" like an EM playfield does - it just tilts up from the front and gravity keeps its back end resting on its rails, in this case the edges of the cabinet. Removing it completely for better playfield service access was as easy as sliding it forward and up and out of the machine. And then you could set it down anywhere, even on concrete floors, due to it being all protected inside its frame. There were heavy duty metal caps on the back side that kept you from lifting up on that end when it was in the down position, so location jokers couldn't remove it without access to the coin door and latch.

Whether dr noticed any of that when designing theirs, especially because of the hydraulic struts, is a question we don't have the answer to yet.

JPop regularly featured old EM mechs in "modern" games. This time he borrowed a particular EM cabinet feature

Here's something that I've always wondered. If I wanted to manufacturer a pinball game, do I need to recreate my own brackets, pop number assembles, and drop target assemblies? Do these companies make their own or license the stuff? How does that work?

I'm assuming they make their own coils?

All you care about is variety due to your lifestyle. You could care less about quality, full assets and great mechs. Any home collector would be insane to take any advice from you on buying a pin.

I've not personally worked on a Bally of that era yet but wow... that sounds pretty ideal, and addresses the cons I imagined. So now I really wonder why it didn't last.

As for DR's hydraulic struts - they are kind of baffling and certainly don't imply "easy quick removal if/when needed". Framed glass shouldn't be *that* heavy compared to a playfield! So why not use a Bally-style cam-lock hinge for the glass frame, and put the struts under the playfield which would genuinely be welcomed, and possibly seen as a "brilliantly stupid, relatively cheap, simple idea"? I guess a complex articulated crane is soooo much more innovative...

Damn, I kinda want to add hydraulic lifts to some of my game pf's now. OTOH I can see where these would impede various service positions so... nevermind

Omg you are so right.

Ok Due to my lifestyle I must encourage everybody to buy one of the fine innovative deep root machines currently available for purchase.

You’ll enjoy the revolutionary innovative innovations such as a pinball machine that doesn’t exist. The quality and assets and great mechs are off the charts!!

Home buyers, listen to me. Buy deep root, today!!!

It’s a world under glass and hydraulic struts and lcd touch screen lockdown bars like you’ve never seen!!!

i am sure it costs alot more than a plain paper box.

Maybe the hinges slide forward so you can prop the glass/lid against the backbox, and lean the PF against that, for access to the lower PF underside. Time will tell.

I think the game looks great. J-pops old games are really awesome.
It's to bad, they seem to kind of gotten lost in overambition.
I hope they dont cave.

Or also probably (or maybe by extension) Robert Mueller? The glassdoor review would seem to corroborate that. I understand any disgruntled employee can go write a negative GD review, but a lot of it really makes sense when you consider the evidence.

That ramp does look really cool, and its nice to see it working, but lets not forget the game is clearly jacked way up in the front and that could certainly have something to do with it.

If you're smart you don't make any of that crap. No license needed, just buy it. TNA homebrew was designed with as many off-the-shelf parts as possible. I think only its ball guides and plastics are custom. Game made it to production and is a blast to play.

Sure, people want cool toys, custom design those. But don't waste time cutting a Z logo into your coil brackets like Zidware.

But I don't wanna see the lift system in the world under glass.

Maybe Punny Factory could get away with it because it sorta fits the industrial theme. It's just wild to me that for people so obsessed with the aesthetics and the world under glass, that they let something intrude into the game like that. It's like playing a video game where the dev console is open the whole time.

I know it's nitpicky but I'm at least trying to provide some sort of constructive criticism. I really hope they figure out how to cover it up with an artblade (of course figure out how to build stuff first and worry about this on the next game)

Nope, you can use off-the-shelf stuff. All the bally/williams patents have since expired since patents have a 20-year limit.

If you want to use a modern stern/JJP/AP mech that is patented, just check the filing date. If it's less than 20 years old, then you'll likely have to license it.

If I were to build a brand new pin, I would rely on bally/williams parts as much as possible since those are both not under patent protection, and they are being readily reproduced.

There's no point in wasting time reinventing the wheel when all that ground work has already been done.

large amounts of R and D money to make innovations that really arent necesarry or dont add any value. i would rather pay 7000 for a std cabinet with a great pin under the glass. use the money for bom on the actual playfield. metal ramps instead of plastic ramps. more toys on playfield etc. i think they are way overthinking pinball sometimes less is better.

People have said these touchscreens are the same dimensions that come on slot machines. If so, they should not be hard to replace.

The last "Innovation" casino gaming brought to pinball was that it is more profitable to build video poker and slot machines than it is to build pinball and we all know how that turned out...

I'm still sorta surprised considering how many video game dev people deeproot has hired that they haven't announced something like they will release digital versions of all their games on Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo.

Now that deep root’s innovations have been identified and listed, I spent some time considering them. Many are fine and a few are good ideas too. Taken together, most pinball players would agree the Pinbar (tm) adds much capability and value. Is that enough to make me want to buy one? Well if the low end model is priced @ $5.5k like a Stern pro and it has the above value included, I’d be interested in trying one of the pins. If it is priced like a Stern prem @ $7.5k, which it is probably worth, I am not interested, as I want a Ferrari for Kia pricing. So if Robert Mueller gives us a premium at the price of a pro, I’d have to act. Maybe more features added, might increase what I’m willing to pay. What kinds of features you ask?

Pinscale (tm) - optional pad inside cabinet can be placed on the floor and when Player steps on it announces his weight. Can be adjusted to lock refridgerator when needed.

Pinpressure (tm) - optional arm cuff can be worn and Player’s blood pressure is announced. Can be adjusted to dial 411 at certain trigger levels.

Pinheart (tm) - optional chest band can be worn to periodically announce Player’s heart rate. Can be adjusted to cockblock all earned multiballs until Player has returned to their safe heart range.

Pindiabetes (tm) - Player can slam their hand down on corner of Pinbar (tm) to create a prick. Simply drain some blood on the Pinbar (tm) and it can be analyzed for blood sugar level. Immediately alerts Player if they need to eat a hotdog or ice cream sundae.

Pindating (tm) - optional profile can be created and a single status will actively shop that Player to 3.2 biillion women on earth.

Pinpuncher (tm) - optional boxing glove subassembly can be attached to the coin door and it will punch Player in the nuts based on certain score level triggers or for restarting a bad game.

Pinvacuum (tm) - optional air hose can be pulled from coin door and pump turned on to create a hand wand with major sucking action. Do you have something that needs to be cleaned? Well use the hose.

Pindongledisplaycase (tm) - with all this happening we are going to need a lot of dongles. Optional leather display case with see through glass window allows Player to see their dongles working while seeing them arranged in industrial fashion.

Pintread (tm) - optional roller assembly stores under pinball machine until needed. Place in front of pin, climb on and begin walking your way to a high score, one step at a time. Every mile earns one million points. Can be set to pay off in 1/10 mile increments.

Pinwrassler (tm) - optional subassembly stores inside pin and attaches to front of pin atop the glass. Purple Knight topper is added to top of pinball machine. Ever wanted to challenge a mechanical arm wrestling machine to a true test of manhood. Well now you can and the purple knight will look down and hurl insults while you sweat.

PinAli (tm) - optional arm attaches to top of backbox and places a punching bag to one side. Surprise your guests by hitting hard and scoring big with the ladies.

Pinsick - optional handsfree measure of Player’s temperature that will turn off pinball machine and schedule a covid test if you have a fever.

PinPinside (tm)(tm) - dictate a review and have it automatically uploaded to a Pinside club thread.

Pin2pay (tm) - use Pinbar (tm) to surf the web, pay bills electronically, check bank account balances, buy and sell stock, swap recipes, order dinner, research genealogy or just send the pinball technician a love note.

Pinbunny (tm) - allows Player to charge their iPhone, iPod and PC battery over WiFi.

Pinbookie (tm) - allows Player to place bets on the winner of pinball tournaments and local horse races or it will allow $1 wagers on multiplayer games.

Pinfortune (tm) - hands free dialing to Player’s choice among all the hottest tv psychics. Learn your fate as Thanos delivers his.

PinPocketPinball (tm) - optional wheels and axles stored inside pinball machine form a pair of pinskates. Small motor and gears inside pinball machine allow Player to drive his pin wherever he goes. Roadworthy and sidewalk approved, you can hitch the PinPocketPinball (th) to the back of your suv and take your pin anywhere you go. Link multiple PinPocketPinballs together and take your whole pinball collection with you.

That's what I found so weird with Heighway and Alien, they spent a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things.

If you watch the Creopack video, the crate breaks down for easier storage. With that being said, I don’t need or want the thing at all.

Keep that up sir and you will have a job at DR

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Bottom line.

If these are unlicensed themes and the cost $6K-9k be prepared for sales in the hundreds each title.

The pin crate will sell less than one thousand units maybe a few dozen or less hopefully they aren’t pinning their hopes on this innovation. I just moved 8 pins from Maryland to Florida and were in storage for 3 months. Just cling wrap and moving blankets. I can’t see how a several hundred dollar box would have been worth it. Just what I don’t need is larger and heavier objects to move that are still fragile to dropping. Has to be another ~100 lbs of wood. I’d much rather spend $300 per on PDI glass than on a box. When not in use they’re going to take up a whole room or garage (if you have 8-10 of these boxes).

This p(a)inbar really seems to be a regression when it comes to actual functionality. Look at how lockbar buttons are currently used: players beating the crap out of them to eat pizza or shoot tiefighters, players quickly slapping them to save a ball (magnasave, walker bombs to start MB), etc.

Does DR realize how unsatisfying it's going to be to pound on a touchscreen instead of an obvious, lit-up physical button? Touchscreen will probably be OK for casual presses like selecting a GoT house, but things like firing an ACDC cannon for 100M SJ during multiball? I want that brightly-lit physical button to slam.

DR: stop reinventing shit and just make the damn game. If it's true y'all fixed the ramp, let's see gameplay vids instead of crate demos.

I had never seen that but really like it . That would be perfect for going to get a game you’re buying or taking your machine to a show ! Not sure how much I’d spend on it but I like it .

Someone said earlier that the pinbar could be used to (for example) move the shot multiplier on SW...

I can do this with three buttons already. Same thing with menu options or high score initials.

Why need to develop a million dollar gadget for something that is already in production that costs like $1 each?

I've replaced several Bally canopy glasses. It's a pain in the ass to do so, especially when the grime has accumulated in the vinyl channels, over the years.

The removable channel is the weak element to the design. It needs to be carefully aligned. Otherwise, it will interfere with re-assembly of the canopy.

I like the canopy concept and prefer it to the conventional slide-out design. However, it requires a redesign to improve upon an inferior glass swap task. Granted, glass swapping is a relatively infrequent task. Nevertheless, there's room for improvement.

Pinball manufacturers don't release digital versions (at least right away, see below) due to operator exclusivity... What operator is going to buy a title and put it on site knowing that the title is available digitally on some home platform? The reason pinball works on site for operators is it is mostly exclusive, most casual players can't afford or have room for a machine at home, so they play them on site. Down the road, sure, release digital versions after a moratorium period ends, but release it at the same time as physical machines are hitting the barcades? No way.

Come on bruh, operators look at how complicated this thing is and will just nope out of it and stick with Stern Pros (to say nothing of their chosen themes). Or they have a client base that is hardcore enough to dismiss any video game version and only be interested in the physical version.

I would argue that video game releases get more people into pinball than drives away location players. Pinball Arcade and Pinball FX video games have gotten more people under 30 to check out pinball more than any other innovation.

Besides, the video game release is cash flow for a company that can't actually build anything (and probably wont for a while, if ever)

That's the fun part!

I would agree with this, not saying digital pinball has not helped actual pinball sales, or gotten more <30 somethings into the game, but virtual pinball recreations of real machines (using pin simulators and emulators) were threatened by legal action by the original copyright owners unless they put in place a voluntary moratorium on releasing digital recreations for 2 years from date of initial maufacture, Stern did this to protect operators, and continue to use this argument so this is not a half baked idea here, it has some real history.

I fully agree Stern has no reason to do this. I'm specifically talking about deeproot though.

Pincherry (tm) - Turns the game into an cherry master

I think the generation of any money stream at this point would help, not sure digital versions of games you can't manufacture (yet, if ever) is the solution... I get that it makes creating a digital version way easier having all the assets already in your pocket, but not sure undercutting an operator base is a smart move for a company the NEEDS the operator market to even have a chance of suceeding on any scale against Stern. Especially if you are just starting out. But this has been an intersting convo amoung the rest of this sh|t show so far for sure. It makes me wonder just how far in a hole DR would be right now if there had not been a pandemic on during their launch year.