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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 12,954 posts
  • 845 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 22 hours ago by spinal
  • Topic is favorited by 226 Pinsiders

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15 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 12954 posts in this topic. You are on page 236 of 260.
#11751 29 days ago

Imagine DR at a bar trying to play it cool and impress the ladies. But then oops,
6ECE1B00-097D-4E2C-900B-389726C2B366 (resized).jpeg

... out comes every feature and idea for the next ten years and none of it done. Load blown and they haven’t even left the bar yet.

I want them to be successful but they really need to work on their pickup. Putting all their cards on the table like this, much of it unimplemented ideas feels like desperation to me. Why talk so much talk like all future games they will work on and have nothing to show? Not cool. And you can never go back once all this info is out.

#11752 29 days ago

Think I'm going to hold out until Fire and Brimstone is built. Wonder if this idea came from Ben Heck (The Bible Pin)?

#11753 29 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Think I'm going to hold out until Fire and Brimstone is built. Wonder if this idea came from Ben Heck (The Bible Pin)?

See you in Limbo!

#11754 29 days ago
Quoted from spfxted:

[quoted image]

Haha. No way in hell I buy anything Jpoop. His games are not great. I've owned almost all, and they all needed tremendous help to compete. TOM is the exception though that needed a lot of effort as well.

#11755 29 days ago

They need to buy one or two of these home-brews and start there. That RAZA is embarrassing. I can’t imagine what they spent on it.

#11756 29 days ago
Quoted from spinal:

Imagine DR at a bar trying to play it cool and impress the ladies. But then oops,
[quoted image]
... out comes every feature and idea for the next ten years and none of it done. Load blown and they haven’t even left the bar yet.
I want them to be successful but they really need to work on their pickup. Putting all their cards on the table like this, much of it unimplemented ideas feels like desperation to me. Why talk so much talk like all future games they will work on and have nothing to show? Not cool. And you can never go back once all this info is out.

It’s unfortunate, but this ^^^. I’m not saying they can’t recover but not even having a working proto after letting people play one 8 ( ? ) months ago and then blurting out every thought they ever had ........? Not looking good for these amateurs .

#11757 29 days ago

Agree that a backbox serves a purpose in arcades, but surely there is an "innovative" way to make it less cumbersome...

#11758 29 days ago

Probably just a matter of time before all the electronics are in the lower cab and the “backbox” is nothing more than an appropriately sized monitor on hinged , fold down bracket

#11759 29 days ago

This company is toast. Moving on...

#11760 29 days ago

Somehow, I highly doubt that.

#11761 29 days ago
Quoted from underlord:

This company is toast. Moving on...

See ya!

#11762 29 days ago

Was following this thread and just wondered stats of likes/dislikes for RAZA. So, at least the poll gives some info. Thanks for those that participated.

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#11763 29 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

See you in Limbo!

Purgatory is the word you are looking for.

#11764 29 days ago

I think The Three Stooges coulda done a better job than DR. Hell, Iggy and the Stooges coulda done way better. Pinball might be hard, but it ain't that hard...

#11765 29 days ago
Quoted from Billy16:

I think The Three Stooges coulda done a better job than DR. Hell, Iggy and the Stooges coulda done way better. Pinball might be hard, but it ain't that hard...

+1 for a Stooges pin! Fun House is already a thing, now let’s get RAW POWER!!!!

#11766 29 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

+1 for a Stooges pin! Fun House is already a thing, now let’s get RAW POWER!!!!

Would Sooo love a Stooges pin. Please someone make it happen.

21
#11767 29 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

OMG what a fail. All stoves should have rotary hand dials and a ticking clock. What were those designers thinking!

While this was clearly sarcasm, you have highlighted the problem with modern design (of just about any product). Putting modern tech into everything doesn’t necessarily make it better.

We have an induction cooktop which looks sleek and minimalist, but because the controls are all on a touch panel it’s utter garbage from a usability perspective. Pot boiling over? Put your finger on the touch panel near the danger and wait 2 seconds for the device to detect a button press (and repeat the process again if it didn't!). On an old gas stove you can flick the dial in a fraction of a second to immediately remove the heat source.

Few (no?) companies make touch interfaces as tactile and responsive as Apple (and they still don’t work 100%). Most companies buy the cheapest, crappiest, least responsive touch interface on special at the Chinese electronics market. Guess which one pinball companies will pick!

It’s the same reason gamers still prefer to play with a controller/keyboard/mouse instead of playing on their mobile phone’s touch display.

#11768 29 days ago

Our oven has a touch panel and I really like the implementation. There are a lot of features and as you make choices it adds or eliminates available options greatly simplifying operating the oven.

#11769 29 days ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Our oven has a touch panel and I really like the implementation. There are a lot of features and as you make choices it adds or eliminates available options greatly simplifying operating the oven.

I’m going to find it hard to get excited about any pinball machine from here on in that doesn’t have a broiler attached.

17
#11770 29 days ago

Oven Jackpot - Multibroil !

12
#11771 29 days ago

Ya know if you just read the first couple of pages of this thread you could skip the next 2 years and 234 pages and know entirely what was about to transpire. On page 1 multiple comments like “this will not end well”. It’s like reading the cliff notes version upfront and then letting the 1000 page book unfold thereafter. What is most surprising I suppose is that it has gone almost exactly as one would expect it to go thus far. A slow motion train wreck of bad decision and poor execution upon bad decision and poor execution.

#11772 29 days ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Ya know if you just read the first couple of pages of this thread you could skip the next 2 years and 234 pages and know entirely what was about to transpire. On page 1 multiple comments like “this will not end well”. It’s like reading the cliff notes version upfront and then letting the 1000 page book unfold thereafter. What is most surprising I suppose is that it has gone almost exactly as one would expect it to go thus far. A slow motion train wreck of bad decision and poor execution upon bad decision and poor execution.

Holy crap, reading the first page of this thread is a trip! I agree, it's all there.

#11773 29 days ago
Quoted from Viggin900:

Just leaked! Here are better pictures of the Pinbar and how it works.
[quoted image][quoted image]

that would be innovation. a microwave built into the pin coindoor. you open the door and cook snacks while you play. some hot pockets anyone?

#11774 29 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

I had posted this in the other thread:

oh boy.
One of my biggest take-aways from the whole jpop story, and what I've learned after handing money over to that numbskull, was to never go against my own business instincts again. If it doesn't add up, it doesn't add up. There is nothing magical about pinball that breaks all the laws of business and profit.
So if whatever you have to share about deeproot is going to make people angry, that is not how you launch a business, especially in a niche market with limited customer base. So this is DOA, and someone else now is going to lose a bunch of money chasing a pipe dream.

Page 1.

#11775 29 days ago

They should sell the shipping crate now to make some coin.
And the lifting accessory too.

#11776 29 days ago

Can someone with manufacturing background estimate how long it can take to procure pinbars with rounded corners in sufficient quantities?

#11777 29 days ago
Quoted from Gorgonzola:

While this was clearly sarcasm, you have highlighted the problem with modern design (of just about any product). Putting modern tech into everything doesn’t necessarily make it better.
We have an induction cooktop which looks sleek and minimalist, but because the controls are all on a touch panel it’s utter garbage from a usability perspective. Pot boiling over? Put your finger on the touch panel near the danger and wait 2 seconds for the device to detect a button press (and repeat the process again if it didn't!). On an old gas stove you can flick the dial in a fraction of a second to immediately remove the heat source.
Few (no?) companies make touch interfaces as tactile and responsive as Apple (and they still don’t work 100%). Most companies buy the cheapest, crappiest, least responsive touch interface on special at the Chinese electronics market. Guess which one pinball companies will pick!
It’s the same reason gamers still prefer to play with a controller/keyboard/mouse instead of playing on their mobile phone’s touch display.

Maybe true but using this example and the fact that once people Accepted change 99% of the buying market Choose this technology. Off subject to your Apple point but I like most recall the Absolutely Crazy Steve Jobs abolishing the keyboard. It will never happen they say, yet Change was the road to progress who would have known?

#11778 29 days ago
Quoted from clempo:

Can someone with manufacturing background estimate how long it can take to procure pinbars with rounded corners in sufficient quantities?

You would have to form that entire face with a punch tool. A tool like that can take anywhere from 8-12 weeks. I know from experience, my work is tooling up punch tooling to form some steel tubing. If the sides need to form an enclosed box, the vendor better allow for springback so the final shape is correct. Standard lockdown bars aren't as critical since there is a gap on the sides that don't have to mate with any other parts other than the cabinet itself.

#11779 29 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

You would have to form that entire face with a punch tool. A tool like that can take anywhere from 8-12 weeks. I know from experience, my work is tooling up punch tooling to form some steel tubing. If the sides need to form an enclosed box, the vendor better allow for springback so the final shape is correct. Standard lockdown bars aren't as critical since there is a gap on the sides that don't have to mate with any other parts other than the cabinet itself.

Also, I think for it to be accepted to any great degree it needs to fit with pinball And 2020 .... Smaller, so the bar can be closer to a regular size; and flush mount, so it doesn't look so clunky. Then it would be much more impressive as an innovation.

What they have so far gets about 1/10 from me, for physical implimentation. Square pointed corners and recessed screen are the biggest negatives I see, closely followed by simply way too large.

#11780 29 days ago

Finally caught up... been following for a while. Agreed that lack of info on manufacturing is a major concern, maybe they have space-age robots, maybe they will contract the manufacturing out...heck, I’d maybe buy a kit and put it together myself (not a terrible idea for HUO...not so much for operators).

Noob opinion on Pinbar...backbox screen is for spectators; I’m really not looking at it while playing, but it displays valuable information on some games (rescue streaks and perks on JP2 for instance). Also status screens and the slow then too fast auto scrolling (You know, “I want to see the third screen in”, so I wait and then it finally comes up, then passes before I can assimilate all the info). Wouldn’t it be nice to have all the status screens displayed all the time on the Pinbar? Round the corners and lets get on with it.

Hey...Food Truck may appeal to other members of my household...and to that I say...great, another pin that I can enjoy with the wife and kids. More pins = better, right? (Not going to pay $9k for that though)

Yet, this is mostly bells and whistles, what about game play? Game play and manufacturing are the main elements, and they are both missing...big time.

I still say. “Good luck to DR”. Let’s see what happens.

#11781 29 days ago
Quoted from robotron:

that would be innovation. a microwave built into the pin coindoor. you open the door and cook snacks while you play. some hot pockets anyone?

Please don’t give them any more ideas! PinWave

#11783 28 days ago

Reasons why trying to reinvent and innovate too many parts of pinball all at once is a bad idea:

1. This niche hobby is FUNDAMENTALLY BASED or should I say HAS ITS ROOTS DEEPLY ROOTED in nostalgia and its connection to older machines so innovation should be made INCREMENTALY. Too many analogies to Jobs and Apple - a very different story and market.

2. For complex systems, when you try to change too many of the parts at once, you can face an exponential increase in the complexity of the getting the thing working together at all. This is why software long ago moved to the incremental approach.

Robert has lost sight of the fact that he wants to create a *company* that makes innovative pinball machines and not a company where the *first pinball release* innovates everything all at once.

So it’s OK if it takes multiple machines (and years) to reach your ultimate goal, be OK with not trying to do everything at once.

#11784 28 days ago

18 what ? Months until nothing happens ? Again.

Or do they string things along for another 18 months for final implosion ?

#11785 28 days ago

My father once told me an old German fable about a young man who wanted to win the archery contest and so began to craft the most elaborate and beautiful bow ever seen. He carved and carved and carved thinking about how adored he would be when he won on that great day. On the day of the contest, it was the most beautiful and ornately carved bow anyone had ever seen. He placed the arrow, pulled back and the bow snapped in half.

#11786 28 days ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Ya know if you just read the first couple of pages of this thread you could skip the next 2 years and 234 pages and know entirely what was about to transpire. On page 1 multiple comments like “this will not end well”. It’s like reading the cliff notes version upfront and then letting the 1000 page book unfold thereafter. What is most surprising I suppose is that it has gone almost exactly as one would expect it to go thus far. A slow motion train wreck of bad decision and poor execution upon bad decision and poor execution.

I'd give 10 upvotes on this one if I could.

I wonder how much longer until the train wreck ends ?

#11787 28 days ago

Another major problem with designing every part custom is repairs down the line.

With these weird setups you are locked into their specific part. Need a replacement lock down bar? Better hope deeproot is selling them and for a reasonable price.

#11788 28 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

18 what ? Months until nothing happens ? Again.
Or do they string things along for another 18 months for final implosion ?

18 days until we see the under cabinet foldable montage legs thingy on Virtual Expo.

I agree with the one who mentioned that before, that they should sell this (if it works, wich I think should be "easy") and the pinpod as a standalone accesory to generate some income.

#11789 28 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

+1 for a Stooges pin! Fun House is already a thing, now let’s get RAW POWER!!!!

I wanna be your dog multiball..

#11790 28 days ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Another major problem with designing every part custom is repairs down the line.
With these weird setups you are locked into their specific part. Need a replacement lock down bar? Better hope deeproot is selling them and for a reasonable price.

maybe thats their plan.. like gilette razors. sell them a pinball dirt cheap, make up the money on service parts!

#11791 28 days ago

There was some very bizarre logic here if you look at their early decisions. Ostensibly they took on JPOP because he 1) supposedly created iconic designs and 2) had multiple titles ready to go at launch. Failure to execute but they decided they could manage him. There was seemingly no concern about why he couldn’t execute and what it would take to manage which is curious because they simply didn’t have enough expertise at the time to possibly know. Instead of then going “ok we’ve got these pre-existing designs, let’s get er done”, instead they seemingly decided to try to reinvent the wheel: 1) slide out glass not good enough for Deeproot 2) lock down bar -put a screen on it 3) back box - I want to rethink this 4) clear coat - not good enough let’s get that tank technology here. So you tell everyone to reimagine and get a prototype done over some two years but you never figure out how the hell you are going to actually build it. Those are the little people who deal with the boring stuff. You can get away with this crap (barely) if you have several billion behind you, but you can’t with just a small crew. And honestly if you were gonna go that route the absolutely last, worst person to lead that endeavor is JPOP, and even Robert. Where is the lead guy who “gets shit done” ? Even if they had somehow perfected every last invention there doesn’t seem to be that person telling Robert that he needs to freeze engineering and have a 1 year lead time to production. Or telling him “hey how about we incorporate 1 innovation, not 10 in our first machine”. Deeproot has acted entirely like a overfunded design house and not a real manufacturer. If they had just left all this additional crap off the table they would have been done by now. But they put working on the crap front and center. This is the epitome of bad decisions and poor execution. And sorry you can blame JPOP all you want. This goes straight on Robert. Deeproot is the people he hires and the direction he lets them take. Misfire from the beginning because he strove for “unique” over practical at every seeming turn they could take. Tranwrecks don’t just happen. The track is laid before anyone even gets there to start the engine

#11792 28 days ago

I think this post from 2019 really says it all...

Some sort of announcement of a 2d game (app?) featuring RAZA assets. Not the worst idea in the world, but where is it? Why announce it?

Another example of their lack of ability to complete anything. And if they can't get an app out the door... yikes.

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 9.46.49 AM (resized).png
23
#11793 28 days ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Where is the lead guy who “gets shit done” ?

Yup.

Played Hot Wheels yesterday. Wow what a fun N' fast shooter, Great animations and sound, and a fantastic light show. Everytime I walk up to an AP pin I think, these guys get shit done and out the door, without much fanfare.

#11794 28 days ago

Now that the cat is more or less out of the bag and everybody is sounding off on the pinbar and its "dangerously sharp" corners, what is the price for a RAZA or any of their other coming your way soon games?

#11795 28 days ago

I see that Pinball News has done their take on the deeproot story:

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2020/09/23/deeproot-delays-launch/

Their conclusion at the very end (below Steve Bowden's picture) is pretty good.

#11796 28 days ago
Quoted from clempo:

Can someone with manufacturing background estimate how long it can take to procure pinbars with rounded corners in sufficient quantities?

I would expect this to morph into a vacuum formed plastic.
Once the pattern is developed (1 week or 2 years depending on complexity) these could be popped off by the hundreds.
Additional steel reinforcement may be necessary adding a step into the assembly process.

#11797 28 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I would expect this to morph into a vacuum formed plastic.

This isn't a good solution, this is a compromise. Remember when Homepin went to a plastic lockdown bar because his supplier couldn't form metal ones because their press didn't have enough tonnage? Pretty sure most people hated that because it felt cheap and weak. Also not sure how well thermoformed plastic would hold up to banging. I worked on a project at work about 2 years ago, we started with thermoforming because that's what the existing one was (and we were trying to minimize tooling cost because it was such a large housing). Not only was the design compromised because of the limitations of geometry, but we were severely limited on material choice because in this application it needed the highest UL flameproof rating possible (which also made the raw material very expensive). Also it did not fair well with impact testing. Not to say that's the case in this part, but there are things to consider. We ended up scraping that tool and building an injection mold in Taiwan and had the mold shipped here.

#11798 28 days ago

I hear certain podcasters criticizing pinsiders for making fun of some of the licenses deeproot has announced. The only problem with that is these podcasters pretty much admitted they would not buy these crap titles either. These podcasters go on to say that any pinball to play is better than doing something that is not pinball. I am sorry but this is dumb statement because if nobody is going to buy a shitty theme it will not be available to play because they will not exist in quantity, and a shitty theme is wasting resources and hurting the pinball company’s finances. Designing a licensed/themed game people would actually want to buy would be much more likely to make the pinball company viable and result in more games for us to play.
Pinball machines are expensive. Paying $7000 for a non-licensed pinball machine seems somewhat hollow. In the days before games were so expensive, non-licensed games were more viable because the sounds and video were not as comprehensive and encompassing due to the lack of technology. Those days are pretty much over with massively coded games, lcd screens and stereo sound in combination with big price tags.

#11799 28 days ago

Again...not knowing much....why can't the lock down bar and even the whole body be made out of fiberglass? (it's good enough for a corvette)
It also seems that there are plenty of materials out there that would stand up to a metal ball better than wood.
Why can't the backglass and wraparound be a big screen so you can change images? (and make animated backglasses neat)
It would be cool if there could be a projector that could project an image on the bottom of the glass.
There's GOTTA be a better way to raise and lower legs than that screwy pad thing on the bottom...
I like wires that have snap in connections and no solder. The easier it is to replace things the better.
Just things off the top of my head as I drink coffee getting ready for football....

#11800 28 days ago

Feel free to go back and up-vote MapleSyurp on this comment posted October 20, 2018.
Two highlights:

Quoted from MapleSyrup:

Unfortunately, Robert has talked a lot of gobbledygook, and corporate nonsense that simply doesn’t fly when it comes to hard manufacturing.

Quoted from MapleSyrup:

I don’t know Robert, and I wish him zero ill will... but he sounds like a wealthy Foodie that has decided to buy prime real estate and open the City’s “hottest new Eatery” while knowing nothing about running a restaurant.

You can read his comment in its entirety at this link:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/35#post-4644057

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